The psychology of needing to eat until stuffed - a discussion

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  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    kommodevaran wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Gamliela wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Bad thing about OA is that it's about abstinence, food lists, "never", etc. I see a lot of value in the 12 Steps in general; they are a good common-sense way to live life but the never part and the food abstinence for life is just not a great strategy IMO. I'm not giving up sugary treats, flour, etc. Not happening. I tried the abstinence from added sugars thing and it's not a sustainable way for me to live. Plus it seems like people just live on dates, figs and dried fruits instead, which isn't really a solution. It's still sugar. OA has a whole list of abstinence foods. It works for some people, but it's not a one-size-fits-all solution.

    Sorry, I know better than to take this down the "sugar" trail. It is page five though. I guess it's inevitable.

    Sorry as well, but OA isn't about food lists, its about taking the 12 steps of recovery.

    "A Plan of Eating
    A Plan of Eating is a tool to help the OA member maintain abstinence.

    RelapsePrevention_Tools_Plan_Women

    “As a tool, a plan of eating helps us abstain from compulsive eating, guides us in our dietary decisions, and defines what, when, how, where and why we eat.There are no specific requirements for a plan of eating; OA does not endorse or recommend any specific plan of eating, nor does it exclude the personal use of one. (See the pamphlets Dignity of Choice and A Plan of Eating for more information.) For specific dietary or nutritional guidance, OA suggests consulting a qualified health care professional, such as a physician or dietitian. Each of us develops a personal plan of eating based on an honest appraisal of his or her past experience. Many of us find it essential to take guidance from our sponsors to develop a plan of eating that reflects an honest desire to achieve and maintain abstinence."

    https://oa.org/members/relapse-prevention/tools-of-recovery/a-plan-of-eating/

    So...where was I wrong in my post? I'm willing to learn, but there is an element of restriction/abstinence and this is directly from the OA site...
    As a tool, a plan of eating helps us abstain from compulsive eating, guides us in our dietary decisions, and defines what, when, how, where and why we eat.
    I have been thinking about this, the thoughts we have about and the names we use for restrictions and deprivation. A key element, that is often ignored - no matter how often it's repeated, it's even included in this excerpt from OA - is "choice". We have a choice - we can pick this OR that, eat it now OR later, eat enough OR too much. Our society has made us believe that we can pick EVERYTHING in UNLIMITED amounts at ANY TIME. That is not choice, that is entitlement! Our lives have limitations. To have a good life we need to be comfortable with restraints, trust that the restaints have a purpose, and confidence that we are free to decide, to some extent, what and how those restraints should be.

    Absolutely. And like all 12 Step groups, there is a lot of smoke and mirrors.

    "Abstain from compulsive eating," (but choose what, when, how, where and why we eat. Which sounds like a different brand of compulsion from where I'm sitting.)


    "...consulting a qualified health care professional," (but "take guidance from our sponsors to develop a plan of eating that reflects an honest desire to achieve and maintain abstinence.")

    My experience with 12 Step sponsors is it's, "Do as I do, and as I say," and lot of the choice part falls into the hands and control of untrained over-eating people. And they do absolutely have the "suggestions" of abstinence from some foods forever and ever amen.

    I know I have food compulsions with a whole long list of items. Am I willing to never have them again? NO. I will over-eat them at some point in the future. For me, weight and health are the only parameters. I'm not trying anymore to "Overcome" my compulsive behavior surrounding Little Debbies. It just doesn't cause me to lose sleep or to gain weight or to spiritually beat myself up for being weak around those foods. I love them, I eat them, the end.

    Do I do it every day? Of course not. Every week? Nope. Some weeks it's potato chips. :wink:

    Some people may like OA BECAUSE it sets a rule that they never eat that food again (or have to start at Day One. ohnoes.)




    There are just some people who can have a drink. Well, I come from a family of alcoholics and over eaters. I know it's just almost impossible for me to keep certain things in the house. If I want something, I have to go get it. I also rarely drink these days. It is what it is.
  • shylady76
    shylady76 Posts: 134 Member
    kommodevaran wrote: »
    shylady76 wrote: »
    Wow
    I am sitting here reading this thread as I am contemplating what to stuff my mouth with to get the full feeling that I never reach. It looks like I am constantly looking for that high but not getting it. I can stick to a food plan for a while but then something snaps and I can't stop eating. Sometimes it takes me over a week to get back to eating a little more normal. One thing I have learned is that a lot of it depends on where I am in my head
    I'm wondering what you mean by a food plan? Is it you deciding what to eat in advance, or someone else's idea of what you should eat?

    Kommodevaran perhaps food plan was the wrong word to use. I don't diet because that never works for me. I log my food on here and try to stay between 1700 and 2000 calories. Yes I can lose weight eating that much as long as I don't sneak any food in.
  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
    kommodevaran wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »
    Maybe you are eating hyperpalatable foods?

    They literally figured out that really sweet foods will taste too sweet after a few bites, and really salty items taste too salty after a short while.

    So they found a point where the fat, salt and sugar ratio was just so that you keep eating them past your satiation point (think potato chips and cookies), what food scientists call the "bliss point." That's why you have sugar and salt in things you wouldn't think would be needed in either (salt in candy, sugar in tomato sauce).

    If you notice you only gorge on certain TYPES of foods, that might be the issue.


    For me, an example is potatoes. I can eat one baked potato and not want any more. I don't need to use portion control on baked potatoes. But I've had to intentionally portion control chips and fries, until I naturally eat less of these than before.

    Worse is if I homecook scallopped potatoes (no cream, just thin sliced stewed potatoes and seasonings), it's like a bottomless appetite for it. I can go three potatoes and still want more. My scallopped potatoes recipe has a bliss point that allows me to eat far larger quanties than I would otherwise. Portion control doesn't "work." I just end up eating as much as is available.

    Best wishes on figuring out the source of your eating past fullness and overcoming it!

    Is that from "Salt, Sugar, Fat"? Fascinating book!

    When I eat 400-500 calories of chicken, broccoli, and potato, or Thai Beef salad, I am full, but not overstuffed, and have no urge to eat more.

    When I have hyper-palatable foods like pizza, I want to eat and eat and eat. It's a real challenge to not. Having a large salad with pizza helps.
    I'm using the term hyper-palatable foods less and less, but I do have the idea in the back of my head that food should taste good, but not too good - it helps. I have found that I need to work for my food, I want to be hungry enough to bother with preparation and chewing. My appetite is actually a good guide - I know that when I'm ready for just about any food, I'm hungry, whereas not really in mood for anything but candy or chips, but strongly so, I'm not hungry, I just want "something"; and as I am well nourished and warm and safe, figuring out what that "something" is, is hard. Most days I eat normal, ordinary foods for most or all meals. I deliberately reserve treat foods for special occasions, which doesn't have to be more special than "Saturday" - finding the balance here is so important and quite difficult; when I grew up, treats were "bad", according to my mother, who never said so explicitly, but implied that treats would ruin my health, and absolute abstaining was commendable.

    This continues to stick with me, and is something I need to be more mindful of moving forward in order to see how much merit there is for me. I believe that when I'm going well and in a good groove with my eating, I'm eating a lot of foods I like, but very little that I *really* like, if that makes sense. Maybe that's my version of moderation.

    I also wonder more generally...
    I frequently see people on the boards say they eat whatever they want as long as the numbers (cals and/or macros) work out, and that if they want xyz food, they find a way to fit it in. I get that, I've been able to do that in the past at times, too, so I'm not arguing that. However, I do wonder if any of those same people have chosen to avoid/significantly restrict certain foods because of what could be a slippery slope.

    Yes, it's kind of semantics, but word choice can reflect attitude... and context and nuance can be important.
  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    jjpptt2 wrote: »
    kommodevaran wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    kommodevaran wrote: »
    jjpptt2 wrote: »
    kommodevaran wrote: »
    I want to expand on my reply. I don't usually think of myself as an emotional eater, but of course I'm too. And I have learned to associate food with many things - situations, emotions, times and places, smell, sound, textures, shapes and colors. And learned to expect many things from food, many things that food can't do - food has no other purposes besides "taste good" and "keep me alive" - which certainly isn't unimportant. But there is a need for balance, and I would need a lot of food to accomplish what my subconscious mind belives it should do for me!

    Care to go further with that?
    I think there is some circular reasoning going on, "food will fix this, but the problem is overwhelming, so I need lots of food". Because I'm not really able to short circuit that argument, and truly convince myself that "hunger is not the problem, so food is not the solution". There is also a massive exposure to food cues - food is everywhere, and food is made into so many shapes and colors that resemble everyday non-food objects, it's hard to not be reminded of the taste and mouthfeel. I don't overeat massively/often anymore, but I have urges often because my rational mind is in conflict with my arational mind. To keep this conflict from escalating, it's important that I'm well fed and rested and manage stress.

    This is interesting. Whenever I feel physically "off" in any way - a headache, congested, fatigued, sore, feverish, lack of focus - my first instinct is "Maybe I'm hungry! Let's eat something." probably because I do often get a headache when I'm legit hungry. And if it doesn't work right away, I'll often just keep eating. Not necessarily to the point of being uncomfortable, but certainly more food than I would have an actual appetite for. I don't do this for emotional situations, like I don't eat when I'm depressed or scared, but I do for physical issues. I guess a form of emotional eating at least!
    I find it interesting too, so I may very well be rambling, but...
    We generally have very safe and easy and predictable lives nowadays, and we're not "designed" for that - so up pops "bucket lists" and "buy these shoes this fall" and "things to see when you're in Botswana" - the media is now telling us what we should be "hunting" for. We also have alarm systems that go off regularly. Most of the times, it's a false alarm. I can wake up in the middle of the night, possibly just by random sound, so when I search, I find no threats, I could just go back to sleep - but then my mind wanders instead - did I make a fool of myself today, is that a toothache, could I have cancer? A quiet evening, my mind is at ease, I don't want anything, I don't need anything, but I'm so used to think that I am or should be "after" something, anything, that the first time I felt that, I wondered if I was depressed!? And my go-to for "something missing", that's right, that's food: "OK, I can always find something to eat!"

    I find this really interesting... the whole idea that we aren't evolving fast enough to suit our current environment.

    Oh now you're really chasing rabbits down holes. I've been delving into evolutionary biology more and came to the same conclusion. Our entire society has been based upon a majority not having enough and now the Western societies have all our needs satisfied we have an almost instinctive nature to create chaos. This impacts our lives in a multitude of ways - eating, health, relationships, politics, etc. We don't believe we "need" the rigidity of societal constructs, but we have not learned to act independently yet.

    As in nearly everything each individual thrives in a specific range of stress. Too much or too little we panic and start acting irrationally. There are a few experiments being conducted now, but the data has only begun to trickle in. I'm suspecting that purpose and responsibility are primary unseen drivers, but we have yet to design and experiment to capture these illusive factors.

    To (hopefully) keep the derailing potential to a minimum... do you have any good suggested reading? This whole concept fascinates me.
  • sardelsa
    sardelsa Posts: 9,812 Member
    jjpptt2 wrote: »
    kommodevaran wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    IHaveMyActTogether wrote: »
    Maybe you are eating hyperpalatable foods?

    They literally figured out that really sweet foods will taste too sweet after a few bites, and really salty items taste too salty after a short while.

    So they found a point where the fat, salt and sugar ratio was just so that you keep eating them past your satiation point (think potato chips and cookies), what food scientists call the "bliss point." That's why you have sugar and salt in things you wouldn't think would be needed in either (salt in candy, sugar in tomato sauce).

    If you notice you only gorge on certain TYPES of foods, that might be the issue.


    For me, an example is potatoes. I can eat one baked potato and not want any more. I don't need to use portion control on baked potatoes. But I've had to intentionally portion control chips and fries, until I naturally eat less of these than before.

    Worse is if I homecook scallopped potatoes (no cream, just thin sliced stewed potatoes and seasonings), it's like a bottomless appetite for it. I can go three potatoes and still want more. My scallopped potatoes recipe has a bliss point that allows me to eat far larger quanties than I would otherwise. Portion control doesn't "work." I just end up eating as much as is available.

    Best wishes on figuring out the source of your eating past fullness and overcoming it!

    Is that from "Salt, Sugar, Fat"? Fascinating book!

    When I eat 400-500 calories of chicken, broccoli, and potato, or Thai Beef salad, I am full, but not overstuffed, and have no urge to eat more.

    When I have hyper-palatable foods like pizza, I want to eat and eat and eat. It's a real challenge to not. Having a large salad with pizza helps.
    I'm using the term hyper-palatable foods less and less, but I do have the idea in the back of my head that food should taste good, but not too good - it helps. I have found that I need to work for my food, I want to be hungry enough to bother with preparation and chewing. My appetite is actually a good guide - I know that when I'm ready for just about any food, I'm hungry, whereas not really in mood for anything but candy or chips, but strongly so, I'm not hungry, I just want "something"; and as I am well nourished and warm and safe, figuring out what that "something" is, is hard. Most days I eat normal, ordinary foods for most or all meals. I deliberately reserve treat foods for special occasions, which doesn't have to be more special than "Saturday" - finding the balance here is so important and quite difficult; when I grew up, treats were "bad", according to my mother, who never said so explicitly, but implied that treats would ruin my health, and absolute abstaining was commendable.

    This continues to stick with me, and is something I need to be more mindful of moving forward in order to see how much merit there is for me. I believe that when I'm going well and in a good groove with my eating, I'm eating a lot of foods I like, but very little that I *really* like, if that makes sense. Maybe that's my version of moderation.

    I also wonder more generally...
    I frequently see people on the boards say they eat whatever they want as long as the numbers (cals and/or macros) work out, and that if they want xyz food, they find a way to fit it in. I get that, I've been able to do that in the past at times, too, so I'm not arguing that. However, I do wonder if any of those same people have chosen to avoid/significantly restrict certain foods because of what could be a slippery slope.

    Yes, it's kind of semantics, but word choice can reflect attitude... and context and nuance can be important.

    I think for this point, you will get many different ways of going about it depending on the person. I eat all the foods I love, I don't avoid anything, but I don't do it everyday not because I can't fit it in but because I prefer to keep my calories ultra low for a few days a week and there simply isn't room with my protein intake. On higher days I have that flexibility so I do it. However... I don't have any issues around food. I absolutely hate feeling too full, I try to avoid it if I can. (Unless I am trying to gain, in that case it is usually inevitable). Also I can have a serving of something ultra tasty and be done with it. Plus ultra tasty to me changes with the day...it can be cheese, sweets or it can be having a really bitter radicchio and arugula salad with a splash of oil and vinegar.
  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
    Oh, I don't doubt that there will be huge variance here.

    I guess my point was more... I wonder if "just fit it in" lacks enough context and nuance that it isn't all that helpful to people who are struggling to find their groove.
  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
    edited September 2018
    kimny72 wrote: »
    jjpptt2 wrote: »
    Oh, I don't doubt that there will be huge variance here.

    I guess my point was more... I wonder if "just fit it in" lacks enough context and nuance that it isn't all that helpful to people who are struggling to find their groove.

    Oh I get what you're saying! I just think that "context and nuance" really has to wait for the struggling individual to provide more info than we typically get. Closed diary, blank profile, no stats, vague question. If all we get is "I gave up pasta, potatoes, and desserts. It's so hard but I haven't lost much weight, I'm thinking of quitting!". All we can do is tell them they can fit foods they like into their calories and still lose weight, and see if we get more follow up info.

    And honestly, if someone is going to design their entire weight loss plan off of one thread they started on this forum, without reading the stickies, without poking around into other threads, and without applying a modicum of critical thinking and effort, they are probably going to fail regardless of what we get into in that one thread. I've been here for 4 years and I'm still learning (from the forum and from my food log). If I had read one thread and walked away, I'd still be 20 lbs heavier (if not more!).

    You only started this thread a couple of days ago, but have you had an opportunity to see if all of this brainstorming has had any affect?

    Yes, there are a couple of things that have stood out to me, that I want to be more mindful of in the coming weeks as I evaluate things for myself.

    I've been at this long enough to have pretty good self-awareness about most things. But there is still an obvious blind spot that I'm trying to get past, and I think I've got a couple of insights that could prove to be important. Early indications are good, but I need more data to make any real evaluations or draw any meaningful conclusions.
  • 33gail33
    33gail33 Posts: 1,155 Member
    edited September 2018
    I haven't read the whole thread, but just wanted to chime in with my experience. I worked with a client who had a similar issue in that she felt she couldn't go to sleep at night unless she felt full. She wasn't comfortable unless she felt that way and would, I guess, stuff herself. She was trying to lose weight.

    We traced it back to her childhood coming home to an empty house and comforting herself with food while she waited for her mom to come home. As an adult her husband traveled a lot and so once her kids were in bed she continued the pattern of comforting herself with food, and equated that full feeling with that.

    So you might want to trace back what that feeling of being full is related to in your past. If it is reminding you of some sort of comfort from your childhood. But I tend to believe that we carry a lot of emotional baggage from our childhood into our adult lives.

  • fitoverfortymom
    fitoverfortymom Posts: 3,452 Member
    dukwings wrote: »
    Thanks to ALL for posting and adding to this interesting discussion.

    I do this as well, and I do believe there's some sort of brain chemistry involved, because when I'm upset or bored, eating makes me feel better. Until, that is, I'm in a food coma and think about how many calories I've downed.

    What I'm working on now is finding some mechanism to resolve the need to overeat, so once I'm at my goal weight and hit one of the triggers I don't reach for Doritos or M&Ms.

    It might be exercise: A friend says she tells herself she can eat whatever she wants, AFTER she takes a 2 mile walk. And of course, after she takes a 2 mile walk the last thing she wants to do is overeat. I'm going to try this one.

    Good luck to all!

    Exercise helped me a lot. I went at it from the angle of looking for information about how to keep off the weight once lost. It all came back to activity level. If you were active during-ish and after weight loss, you were more likely to keep the weight off for x amount of time (sorry I don't have the super scientific study to link to, but that was the gist of article after article).

    I started with walking and probably could have stuck with that, but I'm also super competitive, so it's no wonder I started running and training for distance races, and welp, here I am training for an ultramarathon.

    The essence of what I'm trying to say is that in addition to losing weight, I changed my life. I changed my hobbies. I changed my interests. So much about me has changed. It has affected my relationships--mostly in a good way, but sometimes in challenging ways.

    With all of that, though, even my overeating tendencies change. I honestly wouldn't dream of just grabbing a bag of Doritos to eat while I watch a movie, but even when I eat at maintenance, I can always eat more. I have to decide whether or not I'm going to stay feeling a little hungry or decide if I need to "eat until full."

    So, while aimlessly reaching for snacks isn't necessarily my food issue any more, needing to eat eat eat is a new issue that has presented itself. It's kind of the same, but different. Nevertheless, requires daily attention to make sure I don't completely slip into the willingness to overeat every day, which is pretty much where I was two years ago.
  • kds10
    kds10 Posts: 452 Member
    fitoverfortymom wrote: »
    kds10 wrote: »
    What is hard when you tell yourself to stop eating and still feel like you can eat way more...that is hard to get used to. But I figure I am a work in progress and IF has taught me some semblance of control, I am not 100% perfect but way better than pre IF. I also have learned that being hungry is okay, I will not die from starvation.

    I tried IF, but I wake up too hungry and my attempts at keeping the hunger at bay just gives me headaches and a caffeine/coffee tummy. Hubby will eat a small-ish breakfast (250 calories) and then he can go all the way to dinner without eating anything. Nope. Not me. Too hangry.

    I still clean my plate and meal plan, so that I get to eat all of whatever it is I've planned for the day. I have to eat ALL the food. Knowing that about myself made the process so much easier.

    Man, I wish I could be like that...eat a small breakfast and that sustains me all day...nope an hour later I would be hungry again sigh:( I always hear about these people who forget to eat and it is like wtf...I don't think I have ever forgotten to eat!!

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