Lose weight with cardio
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Good luck Tuesday, @aokoye! Those tests are brutal, may you have a pleasing result.
And a mythical tailwind. 0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Good luck Tuesday, @aokoye! Those tests are brutal, may you have a pleasing result. And a mythical tailwind.
Thanks! Also all of the evaporative cooling. There isn't a suitable and safe place for me to do one near my house (this is also one of the reasons why I don't commute by bike - it's a series of death traps) so I'm doing it inside.1 -
CarvedTones wrote: »I think the average burn by someone who thinks of themselves as fairly active, doing 3 or 4 gym sessions a week, maybe a run or two or whatever, is probably averaging under 500 calories of extra burn a day. Averaging 1000 a day probably puts you int the top 5%, maybe even top 3%, of people.
Given that I'm no where near an elite athlete I highly doubt I'm in the top 3-5% of people in terms of the ability to burn 1000 calories a day (over the span of a few hours). I think it probably shows that I train for a sport in a somewhat organized way and have done so for a while, but I'm not abnormal in that respect - plenty of people do that. Note that I don't typically bike twice a day, but if my schedule allowed for it I would likely be to ride five days a week.
For anyone that cares, my FTP is 180. I last tested it in August and it's likely still around that (I'm planning on doing another FTP test on Tuesday).
I didn't say had the ability to burn over 1000 a day; I do that often myself on long paddles. I said average 1000 a day, as in 7000 or more per week every week.2 -
CarvedTones wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »I think the average burn by someone who thinks of themselves as fairly active, doing 3 or 4 gym sessions a week, maybe a run or two or whatever, is probably averaging under 500 calories of extra burn a day. Averaging 1000 a day probably puts you int the top 5%, maybe even top 3%, of people.
Given that I'm no where near an elite athlete I highly doubt I'm in the top 3-5% of people in terms of the ability to burn 1000 calories a day (over the span of a few hours). I think it probably shows that I train for a sport in a somewhat organized way and have done so for a while, but I'm not abnormal in that respect - plenty of people do that. Note that I don't typically bike twice a day, but if my schedule allowed for it I would likely be to ride five days a week.
For anyone that cares, my FTP is 180. I last tested it in August and it's likely still around that (I'm planning on doing another FTP test on Tuesday).
I didn't say had the ability to burn over 1000 a day; I do that often myself on long paddles. I said average 1000 a day, as in 7000 or more per week every week.
First off, even most elite athletes take a rest day. You also said, "I think the average burn by someone who thinks of themselves as fairly active, doing 3 or 4 gym sessions a week, maybe a run or two or whatever, is probably averaging under 500 calories of extra burn a day." It's fair to assume you mean under 500 calories per gym session or run.
I'm more than willing to bet that quite a number of high school and college athletes (and not just at D1 schools) burn five to seven thousand calories a week. The junior rowers that share the boat house with my rowing club row 2.5 hours a day 5 days a week. The climbing team I was on for part of middle and high school trained six plus hours a week together and then I climbed at least another two to four hours a week.
My point stands, burning 500+ calories an hour while doing exercise/sports 3-5 hours a week isn't as unusual as you think.4 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Just disagreeing with the notion that some have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight.
Would I be right in guessing you don't do endurance cardio?
And you would be wrong. I train 7 hours a week rowing (and more on top of that), many times burning over 1000 an hour. I train with guys that do way more than me and are still, in some cases, overweight. Like I said, I just disagree. I've known many fat runners that run over 75 MPW. I also know guys that do a marathon a week (in one sitting) on the erg (indoor rower) at paces I can only imagine that are heavy. Just seems like a notion to say, "I do so much cardio", as my Brit rowing friends would say, "willy wagging".
I'm not even saying that I fit into this category, just find the whole notion of the idea of something to the extent of only select fitness people can outreach gaining weight by training. There is a limit to training after a while and, while I certainly don't eat like it anymore (I don't eat dairy/gluten, which eliminates nearly 90% of the junk), there was a time in my life I could easily have put down 5K to 6K calories in a day. Many obese people still do that daily. That's how I got to be 240/250 lbs years ago, though I've been in maintenance 6 years now.
I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy.
Personally I wouldn't call that endurance cardio unless you are doing multi hour rows but not lets not go down that rabbit hole....
My point is that although some people sustain a high exercise volume and cannot, or in reality don't choose to, stay slim doesn't negate that some can and do regulate their weight by exercise including deliberate weight loss. Boxers in training camp to make weight for a fight for example.
It's far from uncommon for many dedicated exercisers (not just the elite by any means) to gain weight in their winter or other off season period and then exercise it off again when their training volume picks up.
That's actually my maintenance pattern over several years, my volume drops dramatically from November to January and I gain some weight which I lose again in the Spring when my miles come back up.
That some people can eat at gluttony levels doesn't mean that everyone can even in the far-fetched scenario for most people that is an actual goal to maximise intake. Outside of Antarctic sledge haulers and Trans America competitors perhaps?
"I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy."
Bet you also know a lot of cardio enthusiasts who are slim (using the word addicts is pretty rude).
The limit to training volume is very personal and very varied - your sport doesn't really make long duration exercise easy. A 2hr charity row was one of the most painful things I've ever done, on the other hand 2hrs on a bike is a pretty easy ride. I'm fortunate as someone semi-retired (not a "select fitness person") that I have loads of time to indulge my very enjoyable hobby, my 170,000 + cycling calories a year make a huge contribution to my weight management plan, to the degree I don't need to log my food despite being a bit of a greedy bugger.
It stands repetition - It's the misuse of absolute terms which really annoys. I wouldn't have any issue with "many people can't out exercise their fork" or "a lot of exercise doesn't guarantee weight loss".
The growing rates of obesity aren't just down to increases in intake (CI), in general people's CO has also fallen.
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NorthCascades wrote: »Good luck Tuesday, @aokoye! Those tests are brutal, may you have a pleasing result. And a mythical tailwind.
Thanks! Also all of the evaporative cooling. There isn't a suitable and safe place for me to do one near my house (this is also one of the reasons why I don't commute by bike - it's a series of death traps) so I'm doing it inside.
@aokoye
An hour long FTP test indoors is almost as much of a test of resolve as it is physical abilities.
A big fan to prevent overheating makes a big difference for me.
Hope you smash your PR.1 -
As someone pointed out already, we are discussing an individual towards the beginning of their journey. Yes it's possible for cardio enthusiasts to outpace their calorie burn just as much as there are cardio enthusiasts who have a hard time eating back all of their exercise calories.
But I know that for many of us, originally putting on weight meant habitually eating 4000-6000 calories per day for several days in a row. (Warning: anecdotal evidence incoming) I, and many people I know, have worked active jobs in the past that, while it helped to lessen the rate of weight gain, still didn't compensate for those eating habits. I know that I am also someone who never stopped enjoying being active. It still wasn't enough to justify eating the amount I was eating. Binge eating is a *kitten*.
So while yes I do burn a significant amount during my workouts due to my current weight and the intensity and frequency of my workouts, there still had to be an adjustment period where I had to get used to not overeating my calorie expenditure. I was so used to overeating that being full was my new normal and being overfull was my version of full.
I guess TL;DR: Everyone has their struggles. It is important to be mindful of calories because CICO. And it can be easy to discount how much many years of overeating can warp your sense of hunger signals.3 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Just disagreeing with the notion that some have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight.
Would I be right in guessing you don't do endurance cardio?
And you would be wrong. I train 7 hours a week rowing (and more on top of that), many times burning over 1000 an hour. I train with guys that do way more than me and are still, in some cases, overweight. Like I said, I just disagree. I've known many fat runners that run over 75 MPW. I also know guys that do a marathon a week (in one sitting) on the erg (indoor rower) at paces I can only imagine that are heavy. Just seems like a notion to say, "I do so much cardio", as my Brit rowing friends would say, "willy wagging".
I'm not even saying that I fit into this category, just find the whole notion of the idea of something to the extent of only select fitness people can outreach gaining weight by training. There is a limit to training after a while and, while I certainly don't eat like it anymore (I don't eat dairy/gluten, which eliminates nearly 90% of the junk), there was a time in my life I could easily have put down 5K to 6K calories in a day. Many obese people still do that daily. That's how I got to be 240/250 lbs years ago, though I've been in maintenance 6 years now.
I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy.
Personally I wouldn't call that endurance cardio unless you are doing multi hour rows but not lets not go down that rabbit hole....
My point is that although some people sustain a high exercise volume and cannot, or in reality don't choose to, stay slim doesn't negate that some can and do regulate their weight by exercise including deliberate weight loss. Boxers in training camp to make weight for a fight for example.
It's far from uncommon for many dedicated exercisers (not just the elite by any means) to gain weight in their winter or other off season period and then exercise it off again when their training volume picks up.
That's actually my maintenance pattern over several years, my volume drops dramatically from November to January and I gain some weight which I lose again in the Spring when my miles come back up.
That some people can eat at gluttony levels doesn't mean that everyone can even in the far-fetched scenario for most people that is an actual goal to maximise intake. Outside of Antarctic sledge haulers and Trans America competitors perhaps?
"I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy."
Bet you also know a lot of cardio enthusiasts who are slim (using the word addicts is pretty rude).
The limit to training volume is very personal and very varied - your sport doesn't really make long duration exercise easy. A 2hr charity row was one of the most painful things I've ever done, on the other hand 2hrs on a bike is a pretty easy ride. I'm fortunate as someone semi-retired (not a "select fitness person") that I have loads of time to indulge my very enjoyable hobby, my 170,000 + cycling calories a year make a huge contribution to my weight management plan, to the degree I don't need to log my food despite being a bit of a greedy bugger.
It stands repetition - It's the misuse of absolute terms which really annoys. I wouldn't have any issue with "many people can't out exercise their fork" or "a lot of exercise doesn't guarantee weight loss".
The growing rates of obesity aren't just down to increases in intake (CI), in general people's CO has also fallen.
Sorry my 250K to 300K meters on the erg to train to be (hopefully) in the top five in the US for my age group in indoor rowing doesn't meet your standards for cardio endurance. Try to row a sub 7 2K or a 39 minute 10K and tell me that's not an endurance sport. Granted, it's mostly an "old man" sport. Many of my rowing training buddies are former runners/bikers (one was a TdF rider) that don't want to beat up their bodies any more as they age (I'm in my mid 50s).
Look, I just think saying that some people have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight is a slippery slope. That's part of the reason I'm on this site, in case I need to track calories. I've been in maintenance six years. I have the potential to eat 5000 calories in one sitting. My body is at the point where (even though I do way more cardio than most do, including some 2 hour sessions on Sundays) I can't do much more and I likely would be in the top 2% to 5% in terms of volume. I'm about like a 60 or 70 MPW runner in terms of volume.
The other issue is, what do you do if you get injuries if you're not being cautious with calories. Just think that, perhaps, some will think that they can outburn what they eat and I guess what I'm saying is it's not that hard, at least for me, to outeat what I burn. I've done it.3 -
Mike.
I gave you my opinion - do what you want with it including dismissing it entirely.
Extended duration is normally part of most people's definition and if you want to think a 10k row is endurance cardio then you are welcome to call it whatever you want. Extended duration would normally be part of a definition but if you think 39 minutes qualifies then that's your prerogative. For most people 2hrs would qualify so congrats - you do endurance cardio. :flowerforyou:
Nice willy waving by the way!
You keep slipping into "some people" mode while completely ignoring that some other people would do the opposite. The essential point that this all started from.
Maybe people who don't currently need to track calories might decide it's a sensible thing to do while injured or otherwise too busy to keep up their normal routine? Maybe people follow the eat back exercise calories method perfectly and don't have to adjust their goal?
You can eat 5k in one sitting, I can't and have no intention of trying to. Doesn't make me better than you - just different. It seems both of us put thought into our calorie balance and have a fallback plan to cope with changes
But time to stop the debate as we are never going to agree and it's a world away from the OP.
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MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Just disagreeing with the notion that some have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight.
Would I be right in guessing you don't do endurance cardio?
And you would be wrong. I train 7 hours a week rowing (and more on top of that), many times burning over 1000 an hour. I train with guys that do way more than me and are still, in some cases, overweight. Like I said, I just disagree. I've known many fat runners that run over 75 MPW. I also know guys that do a marathon a week (in one sitting) on the erg (indoor rower) at paces I can only imagine that are heavy. Just seems like a notion to say, "I do so much cardio", as my Brit rowing friends would say, "willy wagging".
I'm not even saying that I fit into this category, just find the whole notion of the idea of something to the extent of only select fitness people can outreach gaining weight by training. There is a limit to training after a while and, while I certainly don't eat like it anymore (I don't eat dairy/gluten, which eliminates nearly 90% of the junk), there was a time in my life I could easily have put down 5K to 6K calories in a day. Many obese people still do that daily. That's how I got to be 240/250 lbs years ago, though I've been in maintenance 6 years now.
I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy.
Personally I wouldn't call that endurance cardio unless you are doing multi hour rows but not lets not go down that rabbit hole....
My point is that although some people sustain a high exercise volume and cannot, or in reality don't choose to, stay slim doesn't negate that some can and do regulate their weight by exercise including deliberate weight loss. Boxers in training camp to make weight for a fight for example.
It's far from uncommon for many dedicated exercisers (not just the elite by any means) to gain weight in their winter or other off season period and then exercise it off again when their training volume picks up.
That's actually my maintenance pattern over several years, my volume drops dramatically from November to January and I gain some weight which I lose again in the Spring when my miles come back up.
That some people can eat at gluttony levels doesn't mean that everyone can even in the far-fetched scenario for most people that is an actual goal to maximise intake. Outside of Antarctic sledge haulers and Trans America competitors perhaps?
"I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy."
Bet you also know a lot of cardio enthusiasts who are slim (using the word addicts is pretty rude).
The limit to training volume is very personal and very varied - your sport doesn't really make long duration exercise easy. A 2hr charity row was one of the most painful things I've ever done, on the other hand 2hrs on a bike is a pretty easy ride. I'm fortunate as someone semi-retired (not a "select fitness person") that I have loads of time to indulge my very enjoyable hobby, my 170,000 + cycling calories a year make a huge contribution to my weight management plan, to the degree I don't need to log my food despite being a bit of a greedy bugger.
It stands repetition - It's the misuse of absolute terms which really annoys. I wouldn't have any issue with "many people can't out exercise their fork" or "a lot of exercise doesn't guarantee weight loss".
The growing rates of obesity aren't just down to increases in intake (CI), in general people's CO has also fallen.
Sorry my 250K to 300K meters on the erg to train to be (hopefully) in the top five in the US for my age group in indoor rowing doesn't meet your standards for cardio endurance. Try to row a sub 7 2K or a 39 minute 10K and tell me that's not an endurance sport. Granted, it's mostly an "old man" sport. Many of my rowing training buddies are former runners/bikers (one was a TdF rider) that don't want to beat up their bodies any more as they age (I'm in my mid 50s).
Look, I just think saying that some people have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight is a slippery slope. That's part of the reason I'm on this site, in case I need to track calories. I've been in maintenance six years. I have the potential to eat 5000 calories in one sitting. My body is at the point where (even though I do way more cardio than most do, including some 2 hour sessions on Sundays) I can't do much more and I likely would be in the top 2% to 5% in terms of volume. I'm about like a 60 or 70 MPW runner in terms of volume.
The other issue is, what do you do if you get injuries if you're not being cautious with calories. Just think that, perhaps, some will think that they can outburn what they eat and I guess what I'm saying is it's not that hard, at least for me, to outeat what I burn. I've done it.
"Endurance sport" typically means hours at a time.5 -
Collegiate rowers train for 200K meters a week to row a 2K race. I guess it's too unique of a situation to relate to. We can go back and forth on if rowing qualifies as a cardio sport but the amount of training that goes into even short races is ridiculous. As they found out in this study, it placed more significant demands on the heart than any other endurance sport, and it wasn't close.
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/07/health/07hearts.html6 -
As someone pointed out already, we are discussing an individual towards the beginning of their journey. Yes it's possible for cardio enthusiasts to outpace their calorie burn just as much as there are cardio enthusiasts who have a hard time eating back all of their exercise calories.
But I know that for many of us, originally putting on weight meant habitually eating 4000-6000 calories per day for several days in a row. (Warning: anecdotal evidence incoming) I, and many people I know, have worked active jobs in the past that, while it helped to lessen the rate of weight gain, still didn't compensate for those eating habits. I know that I am also someone who never stopped enjoying being active. It still wasn't enough to justify eating the amount I was eating. Binge eating is a *kitten*.
So while yes I do burn a significant amount during my workouts due to my current weight and the intensity and frequency of my workouts, there still had to be an adjustment period where I had to get used to not overeating my calorie expenditure. I was so used to overeating that being full was my new normal and being overfull was my version of full.
I guess TL;DR: Everyone has their struggles. It is important to be mindful of calories because CICO. And it can be easy to discount how much many years of overeating can warp your sense of hunger signals.
While the OP is a someone who is a beginner, the discussion about whether or not you can manage weight via cardio really started when NorthCascades said:
That was then refuted by CarvedTones. Note the "be very fit" and "high training volume" in the quote. It's pretty clear that NorthCascades was not talking about beginners.Here's how to lose weight with cardio:
Step 1: Be very fit
Step 2: Maintain your fitness with a high training volume.
Anecdote time: I will also note that my mother has been able to easily maintain her weight for 20 plus years via exercising before work more days than not and loves it (from what I can tell it's not particularly intense exercise but before she retired she was in the gym every day before work). She hasn't changed the food that she eats and she loves gelato, though that comes and goes in phases. She is also one of the healthiest people I know save for a rogue shoulder injury. Now that she's returned she still goes to the gym five days a week - just not at 4:30am.7 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Good luck Tuesday, @aokoye! Those tests are brutal, may you have a pleasing result. And a mythical tailwind.
Thanks! Also all of the evaporative cooling. There isn't a suitable and safe place for me to do one near my house (this is also one of the reasons why I don't commute by bike - it's a series of death traps) so I'm doing it inside.
@aokoye
An hour long FTP test indoors is almost as much of a test of resolve as it is physical abilities.
A big fan to prevent overheating makes a big difference for me.
Hope you smash your PR.
Thanks @sijomial! I'm going to do TrainerRoad's ramp test which is a billion times more humane than the one hour tests. Still really hard, but it's almost more a test of resolve than the one hour tests - almost. I did "accidently" essentially do a 1 hour TT during a Zwift group ride four plus weeks ago and ended up averaging 179 watts. It was my first group ride and it was a Zwift Academy group ride....Needless to say, every other ZA group ride I've done has involved me riding totally within myself instead of trying to keep up with the group. That first one was probably a week or so after my last ramp test which was really good test of how accurate my ramp test was.
I actually quite like the ramp test but I end up having to channel the yells of encouragement from my physical therapist when I'm really in a world of hurt towards the end. Those are the only times I've ever felt nauseous during a workout/ride.
And yeah, I am planning on two fans and an AC unit pointed towards me. I get really warm really quickly and I'm a pretty salty sweater. Even when I'm not doing an intense ride - yesterday I could easily see salt on my arms and it was somewhere between easy and medium in terms of intensity.2 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »MikePfirrman wrote: »Just disagreeing with the notion that some have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight.
Would I be right in guessing you don't do endurance cardio?
And you would be wrong. I train 7 hours a week rowing (and more on top of that), many times burning over 1000 an hour. I train with guys that do way more than me and are still, in some cases, overweight. Like I said, I just disagree. I've known many fat runners that run over 75 MPW. I also know guys that do a marathon a week (in one sitting) on the erg (indoor rower) at paces I can only imagine that are heavy. Just seems like a notion to say, "I do so much cardio", as my Brit rowing friends would say, "willy wagging".
I'm not even saying that I fit into this category, just find the whole notion of the idea of something to the extent of only select fitness people can outreach gaining weight by training. There is a limit to training after a while and, while I certainly don't eat like it anymore (I don't eat dairy/gluten, which eliminates nearly 90% of the junk), there was a time in my life I could easily have put down 5K to 6K calories in a day. Many obese people still do that daily. That's how I got to be 240/250 lbs years ago, though I've been in maintenance 6 years now.
I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy.
Personally I wouldn't call that endurance cardio unless you are doing multi hour rows but not lets not go down that rabbit hole....
My point is that although some people sustain a high exercise volume and cannot, or in reality don't choose to, stay slim doesn't negate that some can and do regulate their weight by exercise including deliberate weight loss. Boxers in training camp to make weight for a fight for example.
It's far from uncommon for many dedicated exercisers (not just the elite by any means) to gain weight in their winter or other off season period and then exercise it off again when their training volume picks up.
That's actually my maintenance pattern over several years, my volume drops dramatically from November to January and I gain some weight which I lose again in the Spring when my miles come back up.
That some people can eat at gluttony levels doesn't mean that everyone can even in the far-fetched scenario for most people that is an actual goal to maximise intake. Outside of Antarctic sledge haulers and Trans America competitors perhaps?
"I just think it's misleading saying that it's hard at a certain point gaining weight do to exercise. I know a lot of cardio addicts that are heavy."
Bet you also know a lot of cardio enthusiasts who are slim (using the word addicts is pretty rude).
The limit to training volume is very personal and very varied - your sport doesn't really make long duration exercise easy. A 2hr charity row was one of the most painful things I've ever done, on the other hand 2hrs on a bike is a pretty easy ride. I'm fortunate as someone semi-retired (not a "select fitness person") that I have loads of time to indulge my very enjoyable hobby, my 170,000 + cycling calories a year make a huge contribution to my weight management plan, to the degree I don't need to log my food despite being a bit of a greedy bugger.
It stands repetition - It's the misuse of absolute terms which really annoys. I wouldn't have any issue with "many people can't out exercise their fork" or "a lot of exercise doesn't guarantee weight loss".
The growing rates of obesity aren't just down to increases in intake (CI), in general people's CO has also fallen.
Sorry my 250K to 300K meters on the erg to train to be (hopefully) in the top five in the US for my age group in indoor rowing doesn't meet your standards for cardio endurance. Try to row a sub 7 2K or a 39 minute 10K and tell me that's not an endurance sport. Granted, it's mostly an "old man" sport. Many of my rowing training buddies are former runners/bikers (one was a TdF rider) that don't want to beat up their bodies any more as they age (I'm in my mid 50s).
Look, I just think saying that some people have reached a level of training that it's nearly impossible to gain weight is a slippery slope. That's part of the reason I'm on this site, in case I need to track calories. I've been in maintenance six years. I have the potential to eat 5000 calories in one sitting. My body is at the point where (even though I do way more cardio than most do, including some 2 hour sessions on Sundays) I can't do much more and I likely would be in the top 2% to 5% in terms of volume. I'm about like a 60 or 70 MPW runner in terms of volume.
The other issue is, what do you do if you get injuries if you're not being cautious with calories. Just think that, perhaps, some will think that they can outburn what they eat and I guess what I'm saying is it's not that hard, at least for me, to outeat what I burn. I've done it.
I'm not really willing to say whether or not you do or don't train intensively, but I'm not going to dispute the fact that rowing is an aerobic sport - it is. I don't know that I would qualify races as endurance based given how short they are, but I can't easily find a definition of what is or isn't endurance. I would classify rowing races as a sprint which is kind of the opposite of endurance. That said - the training on ergs and water, is, quite clearly, endurance based for the most part.
That said, yesterday you said that you rowed 7 hours a week - does that mean that you're averaging 35,714 meters an hour on the low end? From what I can tell most college programs are training twice a day on weekdays and then on Saturdays (from google and the experiences of multiple friends who road at various colleges). That definitely ends up being over 7 hours a week (it's also a schedule that I don't envy because I just don't have the time when you add in cycling and choir on top of school).
edited because I couldn't quickly find a definition of "endurance" as it relates to distance in various sports.2 -
As someone pointed out already, we are discussing an individual towards the beginning of their journey. Yes it's possible for cardio enthusiasts to outpace their calorie burn just as much as there are cardio enthusiasts who have a hard time eating back all of their exercise calories.
But I know that for many of us, originally putting on weight meant habitually eating 4000-6000 calories per day for several days in a row. (Warning: anecdotal evidence incoming) I, and many people I know, have worked active jobs in the past that, while it helped to lessen the rate of weight gain, still didn't compensate for those eating habits. I know that I am also someone who never stopped enjoying being active. It still wasn't enough to justify eating the amount I was eating. Binge eating is a *kitten*.
So while yes I do burn a significant amount during my workouts due to my current weight and the intensity and frequency of my workouts, there still had to be an adjustment period where I had to get used to not overeating my calorie expenditure. I was so used to overeating that being full was my new normal and being overfull was my version of full.
I guess TL;DR: Everyone has their struggles. It is important to be mindful of calories because CICO. And it can be easy to discount how much many years of overeating can warp your sense of hunger signals.
While the OP is a someone who is a beginner, the discussion about whether or not you can manage weight via cardio really started when NorthCascades said:
That was then refuted by CarvedTones. Note the "be very fit" and "high training volume" in the quote. It's pretty clear that NorthCascades was not talking about beginners.Here's how to lose weight with cardio:
Step 1: Be very fit
Step 2: Maintain your fitness with a high training volume.
Anecdote time: I will also note that my mother has been able to easily maintain her weight for 20 plus years via exercising before work more days than not and loves it (from what I can tell it's not particularly intense exercise but before she retired she was in the gym every day before work). She hasn't changed the food that she eats and she loves gelato, though that comes and goes in phases. She is also one of the healthiest people I know save for a rogue shoulder injury. Now that she's returned she still goes to the gym five days a week - just not at 4:30am.
Having a healthy relationship with food can go a long way and it sounds like your mother has it down. Yay!! (I honestly mean that. I sincerely wish that I didn't have food issues to contend with. I'm a little envious of your mom and instead of feeling that I am choosing to focus on the positive and be happy for her.)
I guess I could be clearer with my point. It is important to note that there isn't a one size fits all answer to whether cardio is effective for weight loss for the individual. At least that is my takeaway from the debate. What works for some doesn't work for others. However, what does work for everyone in terms of weight loss, barring a medical issue, is CICO. How you get there can vary. Your mom manages to maintain with her workout regimen because it helps put her at maintenance calories. A year ago, the amount of cardio I was doing want outpacing my food binges. If OP wants to do cardio, they should! Moving more will help with overall health. But if you are doing cardio, eating back your exercise calories, and eating more than you burn, your going to gain weight.
My main point is that, as a beginner, it can go a long way in being successful if you focus on good eating habits so that when you are not a beginner and you're wondering why you're not losing weight, you will have the most likely reason at your finger tips. That cardio can contribute to weight loss but we also have to set ourselves up for success. It's good to see that there is debate at all levels of fitness and that we are all in a similar "battle" so I don't want to diminish the conversation.
I don't know if I'm being any clearer. I hope so. I promise I'm not trying to be antagonistic 😁.4 -
As someone pointed out already, we are discussing an individual towards the beginning of their journey. Yes it's possible for cardio enthusiasts to outpace their calorie burn just as much as there are cardio enthusiasts who have a hard time eating back all of their exercise calories.
But I know that for many of us, originally putting on weight meant habitually eating 4000-6000 calories per day for several days in a row. (Warning: anecdotal evidence incoming) I, and many people I know, have worked active jobs in the past that, while it helped to lessen the rate of weight gain, still didn't compensate for those eating habits. I know that I am also someone who never stopped enjoying being active. It still wasn't enough to justify eating the amount I was eating. Binge eating is a *kitten*.
So while yes I do burn a significant amount during my workouts due to my current weight and the intensity and frequency of my workouts, there still had to be an adjustment period where I had to get used to not overeating my calorie expenditure. I was so used to overeating that being full was my new normal and being overfull was my version of full.
I guess TL;DR: Everyone has their struggles. It is important to be mindful of calories because CICO. And it can be easy to discount how much many years of overeating can warp your sense of hunger signals.
While the OP is a someone who is a beginner, the discussion about whether or not you can manage weight via cardio really started when NorthCascades said:
That was then refuted by CarvedTones. Note the "be very fit" and "high training volume" in the quote. It's pretty clear that NorthCascades was not talking about beginners.Here's how to lose weight with cardio:
Step 1: Be very fit
Step 2: Maintain your fitness with a high training volume.
Anecdote time: I will also note that my mother has been able to easily maintain her weight for 20 plus years via exercising before work more days than not and loves it (from what I can tell it's not particularly intense exercise but before she retired she was in the gym every day before work). She hasn't changed the food that she eats and she loves gelato, though that comes and goes in phases. She is also one of the healthiest people I know save for a rogue shoulder injury. Now that she's returned she still goes to the gym five days a week - just not at 4:30am.
Having a healthy relationship with food can go a long way and it sounds like your mother has it down. Yay!! (I honestly mean that. I sincerely wish that I didn't have food issues to contend with. I'm a little envious of your mom and instead of feeling that I am choosing to focus on the positive and be happy for her.)
I guess I could be clearer with my point. It is important to note that there isn't a one size fits all answer to whether cardio is effective for weight loss for the individual. At least that is my takeaway from the debate. What works for some doesn't work for others. However, what does work for everyone in terms of weight loss, barring a medical issue, is CICO. How you get there can vary. Your mom manages to maintain with her workout regimen because it helps put her at maintenance calories. A year ago, the amount of cardio I was doing want outpacing my food binges. If OP wants to do cardio, they should! Moving more will help with overall health. But if you are doing cardio, eating back your exercise calories, and eating more than you burn, your going to gain weight.
My main point is that, as a beginner, it can go a long way in being successful if you focus on good eating habits so that when you are not a beginner and you're wondering why you're not losing weight, you will have the most likely reason at your finger tips. That cardio can contribute to weight loss but we also have to set ourselves up for success. It's good to see that there is debate at all levels of fitness and that we are all in a similar "battle" so I don't want to diminish the conversation.
I don't know if I'm being any clearer. I hope so. I promise I'm not trying to be antagonistic 😁.
Honestly I can't disagree with this post. And yes, My mom is lucky that she has a really good relationship with food as well as with exercise. She occasionally voices some really unfortunate pseudoscience that I will sometimes correct her on (she went on a "sugar causes cancer" thing some time ago...I didn't keep my mouth shut when she said that and again, it's not like she doesn't eat things with added sugar). Her main reason for exercising at 5am after she retired was, "but I have friends at the gym!" - and I mean it's true, there are a core group of people who are there that early and she'd been working out at that gym at 5am for over a decade if we include it moving to its current location - it is directly across from where she used to work.
I think what I like about this thread is that it's highlighting that there are differences between people. This should be fairly obvious because we are not clones of each other, but I think that people sometimes enjoy making absolutist statements as opposed to seeing the gray areas. Yes losing, gaining, and maintaining weight is a matter of balancing CICO, but there are different ways of doing that. Even before I started counting calories it became abundantly clear that if I biked more I would lose weight. My personal challenge is making sure that I'm mentally and physically in a space where I can bike. Between severe depression (which is not helped by exercise - if only) and having had numerous knee surgeries that can be hard. It's part of why I ride inside as often as I do. I would prefer to be outside more often than not - including in the rain, but it's logistically significantly easier for me to get ride inside.
I think a lot of times the idea that you can use exercise/sports that are classified as cardiovascular in nature to manage your weight is shot down on this forum. That is likely because seemingly a lot of people who use the forums aren't really fit and/or don't have high or medium training loads. I also think the tendency for (seeming) a lot of people to say things like, "well what about strength", "strength is better than cardio!", and "I hate cardio" fuels this as well as it shuts down what could become discussions like this. It's also needlessly divisive.2 -
CarvedTones wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »I think the average burn by someone who thinks of themselves as fairly active, doing 3 or 4 gym sessions a week, maybe a run or two or whatever, is probably averaging under 500 calories of extra burn a day. Averaging 1000 a day probably puts you int the top 5%, maybe even top 3%, of people.
Given that I'm no where near an elite athlete I highly doubt I'm in the top 3-5% of people in terms of the ability to burn 1000 calories a day (over the span of a few hours). I think it probably shows that I train for a sport in a somewhat organized way and have done so for a while, but I'm not abnormal in that respect - plenty of people do that. Note that I don't typically bike twice a day, but if my schedule allowed for it I would likely be to ride five days a week.
For anyone that cares, my FTP is 180. I last tested it in August and it's likely still around that (I'm planning on doing another FTP test on Tuesday).
I didn't say had the ability to burn over 1000 a day; I do that often myself on long paddles. I said average 1000 a day, as in 7000 or more per week every week.
You also said, "I think the average burn by someone who thinks of themselves as fairly active, doing 3 or 4 gym sessions a week, maybe a run or two or whatever, is probably averaging under 500 calories of extra burn a day." It's fair to assume you mean under 500 calories per gym session or run.
By average per day, I meant daily average. All days averaged together.1 -
As someone pointed out already, we are discussing an individual towards the beginning of their journey. Yes it's possible for cardio enthusiasts to outpace their calorie burn just as much as there are cardio enthusiasts who have a hard time eating back all of their exercise calories.
But I know that for many of us, originally putting on weight meant habitually eating 4000-6000 calories per day for several days in a row. (Warning: anecdotal evidence incoming) I, and many people I know, have worked active jobs in the past that, while it helped to lessen the rate of weight gain, still didn't compensate for those eating habits. I know that I am also someone who never stopped enjoying being active. It still wasn't enough to justify eating the amount I was eating. Binge eating is a *kitten*.
So while yes I do burn a significant amount during my workouts due to my current weight and the intensity and frequency of my workouts, there still had to be an adjustment period where I had to get used to not overeating my calorie expenditure. I was so used to overeating that being full was my new normal and being overfull was my version of full.
I guess TL;DR: Everyone has their struggles. It is important to be mindful of calories because CICO. And it can be easy to discount how much many years of overeating can warp your sense of hunger signals.
While the OP is a someone who is a beginner, the discussion about whether or not you can manage weight via cardio really started when NorthCascades said:
That was then refuted by CarvedTones. Note the "be very fit" and "high training volume" in the quote. It's pretty clear that NorthCascades was not talking about beginners.Here's how to lose weight with cardio:
Step 1: Be very fit
Step 2: Maintain your fitness with a high training volume.
Anecdote time: I will also note that my mother has been able to easily maintain her weight for 20 plus years via exercising before work more days than not and loves it (from what I can tell it's not particularly intense exercise but before she retired she was in the gym every day before work). She hasn't changed the food that she eats and she loves gelato, though that comes and goes in phases. She is also one of the healthiest people I know save for a rogue shoulder injury. Now that she's returned she still goes to the gym five days a week - just not at 4:30am.
I believe you can out eat all the exercise you can do. I don't think you can exercise away all that it is possible for you to eat. Anecdotes about people who eat a reasonable amount and then can eat a little, or even a lot, more by exercising don't change that belief.5 -
CarvedTones wrote: »As someone pointed out already, we are discussing an individual towards the beginning of their journey. Yes it's possible for cardio enthusiasts to outpace their calorie burn just as much as there are cardio enthusiasts who have a hard time eating back all of their exercise calories.
But I know that for many of us, originally putting on weight meant habitually eating 4000-6000 calories per day for several days in a row. (Warning: anecdotal evidence incoming) I, and many people I know, have worked active jobs in the past that, while it helped to lessen the rate of weight gain, still didn't compensate for those eating habits. I know that I am also someone who never stopped enjoying being active. It still wasn't enough to justify eating the amount I was eating. Binge eating is a *kitten*.
So while yes I do burn a significant amount during my workouts due to my current weight and the intensity and frequency of my workouts, there still had to be an adjustment period where I had to get used to not overeating my calorie expenditure. I was so used to overeating that being full was my new normal and being overfull was my version of full.
I guess TL;DR: Everyone has their struggles. It is important to be mindful of calories because CICO. And it can be easy to discount how much many years of overeating can warp your sense of hunger signals.
While the OP is a someone who is a beginner, the discussion about whether or not you can manage weight via cardio really started when NorthCascades said:
That was then refuted by CarvedTones. Note the "be very fit" and "high training volume" in the quote. It's pretty clear that NorthCascades was not talking about beginners.Here's how to lose weight with cardio:
Step 1: Be very fit
Step 2: Maintain your fitness with a high training volume.
Anecdote time: I will also note that my mother has been able to easily maintain her weight for 20 plus years via exercising before work more days than not and loves it (from what I can tell it's not particularly intense exercise but before she retired she was in the gym every day before work). She hasn't changed the food that she eats and she loves gelato, though that comes and goes in phases. She is also one of the healthiest people I know save for a rogue shoulder injury. Now that she's returned she still goes to the gym five days a week - just not at 4:30am.
I believe you can out eat all the exercise you can do. I don't think you can exercise away all that it is possible for you to eat. Anecdotes about people who eat a reasonable amount and then can eat a little, or even a lot, more by exercising don't change that belief.
Again, if you're default is to eat X number of calories and that X is less than or greater than the Y number of calories that you burn exercising then yeah, you'll be able to maintain or lose weight via exercise. That's nearly as basic as CICO.
What you don't seem/want to understand is that there isn't some sort of black and white "all people like to eat X amount of Y types of foods that are or aren't very calorie dense". We aren't cookie cutters of eachother. We are a diverse species. Yes it's all about CICO and most people don't have metabolic issues, but not everyone likes or can eat the same times of food, not everyone has the same types of food available, not everyone has the same appetite, and not everyone has the same relationship with food. Sure I could eat a pint of ice cream after burning 500 calories but I don't like ice cream enough to want to do that.
I'm not going to try to convince you specifically any more of this pretty basic aspect of being human.
edit: there should be loads of academic articles in the fields of anthropology of food and sociology of food that get at my second paragraph. Again, I'm not going to do that work for you despite those being very interesting fields (my first day back at uni is tomorrow, and those are not my fields).2 -
CarvedTones wrote: »As someone pointed out already, we are discussing an individual towards the beginning of their journey. Yes it's possible for cardio enthusiasts to outpace their calorie burn just as much as there are cardio enthusiasts who have a hard time eating back all of their exercise calories.
But I know that for many of us, originally putting on weight meant habitually eating 4000-6000 calories per day for several days in a row. (Warning: anecdotal evidence incoming) I, and many people I know, have worked active jobs in the past that, while it helped to lessen the rate of weight gain, still didn't compensate for those eating habits. I know that I am also someone who never stopped enjoying being active. It still wasn't enough to justify eating the amount I was eating. Binge eating is a *kitten*.
So while yes I do burn a significant amount during my workouts due to my current weight and the intensity and frequency of my workouts, there still had to be an adjustment period where I had to get used to not overeating my calorie expenditure. I was so used to overeating that being full was my new normal and being overfull was my version of full.
I guess TL;DR: Everyone has their struggles. It is important to be mindful of calories because CICO. And it can be easy to discount how much many years of overeating can warp your sense of hunger signals.
While the OP is a someone who is a beginner, the discussion about whether or not you can manage weight via cardio really started when NorthCascades said:
That was then refuted by CarvedTones. Note the "be very fit" and "high training volume" in the quote. It's pretty clear that NorthCascades was not talking about beginners.Here's how to lose weight with cardio:
Step 1: Be very fit
Step 2: Maintain your fitness with a high training volume.
Anecdote time: I will also note that my mother has been able to easily maintain her weight for 20 plus years via exercising before work more days than not and loves it (from what I can tell it's not particularly intense exercise but before she retired she was in the gym every day before work). She hasn't changed the food that she eats and she loves gelato, though that comes and goes in phases. She is also one of the healthiest people I know save for a rogue shoulder injury. Now that she's returned she still goes to the gym five days a week - just not at 4:30am.
I believe you can out eat all the exercise you can do. I don't think you can exercise away all that it is possible for you to eat. Anecdotes about people who eat a reasonable amount and then can eat a little, or even a lot, more by exercising don't change that belief.
Don't you think it's a really peculiar construct that someone actively seeking to manage their weight would at the same time even try to eat the maximum amount possible?
But anyway here's a couple of examples of people unable to keep their intake up with their exercise demands:
Read some of Sir Ranulph Fiennes books and you will indeed see that despite daily intakes of up to 11,000 cals he indeed lost an awful amount of weight on his adventures. To the point of being emaciated.
Read Guy Martin's "Worms to Catch" - lost a load of weight during the Tour Divide MTB event despite an eating strategy of eating everything possible whenever possible. Described himself as looking like he had escaped from a prisoner of war camp.
Your personal experience doesn't translate to everybody.3
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