low carb diet questions
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Replies
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The reason keto or low carb is not optimum for high intensity exercise:
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021879/uploads/editor/xk/4jymbf0uonch.jpg
Additional info on low carb and endurance performance:
https://us.v-cdn.net/5021879/uploads/editor/1z/54zbbdnkkjbc.jpg
Lastly, a meta analysis on ketogenic diet impact on body fat, muscle mass, strength and endurance.
https://sci-fit.net/ketogenic-diet-fat-muscle-performance/
Information and research allows one to draw their own conclusion based on evidence.
4 -
how many carbs do you eat a day?
I try for 50g ... over 100g is a failure day
and how much protein and fat?
I try to eat 50% fats.
are you losing weight?
Yup
has it been hard?
Yup
do you exercise?
Not regularly.... I try to but honestly I don't
how much do you weigh and how long have you been on a diet?
I weigh 175. @ 5' 8" male. ...Bobbie, started Oct. 1,
how much have you lost already?
11.4 lbs in 21 days.
how many calories do you usually burn per day?
About 1700
4 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »tanyanie11 wrote: »how many carbs do you eat a day?
- a lot
- a lot
- maintaining
- no really the eating part, but getting into the habit of daily exercise was pretty hard
- 7 days a week
- 185
- never really went on a diet per say, but i did monitor my intake to learn how to eat better
- 50 to 60 lbs.
- 500 to 1000 active calories (exercise), plus my regular calories about 2000. So about 2500 to 3500 total.
As far as the subject line "Low Carb Diet" goes, if you exercise, you need more carbs because that is mainly what you burn when exercising.
I eat less than 50gm carbs /day usually under 30gm/day. Do chores on my hobby farm, run a household with 2 children and some dogs(oldest kid has moved off to college), manage to perform my job well every day, am improving weekly on the lifting I am doing again, can run a sub 8min mile, can easily hike 4mph for 15 plus miles in hilly terrain with a 40lb pack. None of these are amazing feats but all are possible with lowered carbohydrate intake. Promise.
He isn't saying you can't, but if you are at an elite level or very high performinh level than carbs will increase performance, especially when its explosive. There are a few excepts, but its a fraction of a fraction of athletes. That is fact.
I see it all the time with the people i train and train with. When they carb refeed after being on a keto diet, all of their lifts increase. And not by a few lbs. I have seen deadlifts increase as much as 30 lbs. Carbs increase ATP availability which increase energy out put.
Now when you hage severe IR or another medical issue, then increasing carbs is a terrible ideal and not a noteworthy N=1 expirement. That person would feel terrible.
OP, i lost weight and kept it off for 6 years at 300g of carbs. My current lifts are 345 lb DL, 285 Squat, 215 Bench and 145 OHP. I only do 10-15 min of cardio since its cold. When it was warm, i was doing 2 hrs of tennis. But when i was keto cycling, it kills my heavy lifts and my tennis stamina. That might be from not being fat adapted since i carb refeedes weekly.
The biggest key is protein. It should be 1.5-2.2g/kg od weight. Fats and carbs are personal preference.
Not saying it couldn't happen with lifters but most of the success stories I read about athletes who increase performance on keto are typically runners or endurance type people. Even so they will often have a nip of carbs during the event.
And even then, 99% of them have inferior to carb based althetes.
99% of low carb endurance athletes, even when using some carbs during an endurance event, are inferior to carb based athletes? That's a guestimate right? You'd have to do some math to account for the fewer number of low carb athletes compared to higher carb, and the fact that LCHF is still a relatively new idea to a group that traditionally does carb loading and Gu. I've never seen that figured out.
Its probably being generous actually, since there is like what, one guy who has performed at the top of his sport while being low carb.
And heck, even most of the keto/lchf athletes carb load before races.
And like you always say, keto and low carb have been around for a long time. They have also been in sports for a long time. Its really only the evidence based research that is newer.
Probably....the one guy...
I don't think you put very much though or research into this. They are many keto runners that experience a increase in speed after becoming fat adapted. Likewise there are many who dont. I was answering a question regarding low carb and lifting and thought that low carb mostly benefits endurance vs short burst demands. That for you that decends into keto sucks for 99% of athletes other than that one guy....
Oh, I certainly have. I don't deny that some will increase performance, but you would have to consider the variables, which I am sure is talked about less. Many athletes will have periods of very low carb diets so they can increase fat oxidation rates (so they can use fat more efficiently). But pre-race, they will carb load for several days to maximize glycogen capacity and will use gels intra-race to replenish glycogen. Why, because glycogen is much more effective for energy. And the science doesn't support low carb/keto eating. If you really want a unbiased look, than take every single elite athlete, across multiple sports, and see what they have in common.
And I am also speaking from being involved with sports my entire life and training people personally over the past decade.
And keep in mind, I am not suggesting that people shouldn't do keto or low carb, but more often than not, they will perform better with carbs. But if you don't care about getting every little extra ounce out of your performance, it doesn't matter.
This is it for me. I love fitness and I want to be healthy, but the honest truth is I’ve always worked out hoping to look a certain way.
Keto helped me get to my goal weight, and the fit body I had built underneath was still there. I mulched a huge garden last week and wasn’t even sore the next day. I’m not jacked and I don’t have zero percent body fat, but I have great muscle tone and if I stand JUST the right way and suck in and flex I can kinda see a six pack.
I’m open to the possibility that I might be able to lift heavier and cycle harder if I ate more carbs; I just don’t see what that would add to my life. When I see the athletic-performance-based arguments against low-carb I really wish people would make it clearer that they apply more to people seeking peak performance than people who just want a healthy lifestyle. Most of the population will never notice a difference.11 -
FlyingMolly wrote: »youngmomtaz wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »tanyanie11 wrote: »how many carbs do you eat a day?
- a lot
- a lot
- maintaining
- no really the eating part, but getting into the habit of daily exercise was pretty hard
- 7 days a week
- 185
- never really went on a diet per say, but i did monitor my intake to learn how to eat better
- 50 to 60 lbs.
- 500 to 1000 active calories (exercise), plus my regular calories about 2000. So about 2500 to 3500 total.
As far as the subject line "Low Carb Diet" goes, if you exercise, you need more carbs because that is mainly what you burn when exercising.
I eat less than 50gm carbs /day usually under 30gm/day. Do chores on my hobby farm, run a household with 2 children and some dogs(oldest kid has moved off to college), manage to perform my job well every day, am improving weekly on the lifting I am doing again, can run a sub 8min mile, can easily hike 4mph for 15 plus miles in hilly terrain with a 40lb pack. None of these are amazing feats but all are possible with lowered carbohydrate intake. Promise.
He isn't saying you can't, but if you are at an elite level or very high performinh level than carbs will increase performance, especially when its explosive. There are a few excepts, but its a fraction of a fraction of athletes. That is fact.
I see it all the time with the people i train and train with. When they carb refeed after being on a keto diet, all of their lifts increase. And not by a few lbs. I have seen deadlifts increase as much as 30 lbs. Carbs increase ATP availability which increase energy out put.
Now when you hage severe IR or another medical issue, then increasing carbs is a terrible ideal and not a noteworthy N=1 expirement. That person would feel terrible.
OP, i lost weight and kept it off for 6 years at 300g of carbs. My current lifts are 345 lb DL, 285 Squat, 215 Bench and 145 OHP. I only do 10-15 min of cardio since its cold. When it was warm, i was doing 2 hrs of tennis. But when i was keto cycling, it kills my heavy lifts and my tennis stamina. That might be from not being fat adapted since i carb refeedes weekly.
The biggest key is protein. It should be 1.5-2.2g/kg od weight. Fats and carbs are personal preference.
Not saying it couldn't happen with lifters but most of the success stories I read about athletes who increase performance on keto are typically runners or endurance type people. Even so they will often have a nip of carbs during the event.
And even then, 99% of them have inferior to carb based althetes.
99% of low carb endurance athletes, even when using some carbs during an endurance event, are inferior to carb based athletes? That's a guestimate right? You'd have to do some math to account for the fewer number of low carb athletes compared to higher carb, and the fact that LCHF is still a relatively new idea to a group that traditionally does carb loading and Gu. I've never seen that figured out.
Its probably being generous actually, since there is like what, one guy who has performed at the top of his sport while being low carb.
And heck, even most of the keto/lchf athletes carb load before races.
And like you always say, keto and low carb have been around for a long time. They have also been in sports for a long time. Its really only the evidence based research that is newer.
Probably....the one guy...
I don't think you put very much though or research into this. They are many keto runners that experience a increase in speed after becoming fat adapted. Likewise there are many who dont. I was answering a question regarding low carb and lifting and thought that low carb mostly benefits endurance vs short burst demands. That for you that decends into keto sucks for 99% of athletes other than that one guy....
Oh, I certainly have. I don't deny that some will increase performance, but you would have to consider the variables, which I am sure is talked about less. Many athletes will have periods of very low carb diets so they can increase fat oxidation rates (so they can use fat more efficiently). But pre-race, they will carb load for several days to maximize glycogen capacity and will use gels intra-race to replenish glycogen. Why, because glycogen is much more effective for energy. And the science doesn't support low carb/keto eating. If you really want a unbiased look, than take every single elite athlete, across multiple sports, and see what they have in common.
And I am also speaking from being involved with sports my entire life and training people personally over the past decade.
And keep in mind, I am not suggesting that people shouldn't do keto or low carb, but more often than not, they will perform better with carbs. But if you don't care about getting every little extra ounce out of your performance, it doesn't matter.
This is it for me. I love fitness and I want to be healthy, but the honest truth is I’ve always worked out hoping to look a certain way.
Keto helped me get to my goal weight, and the fit body I had built underneath was still there. I mulched a huge garden last week and wasn’t even sore the next day. I’m not jacked and I don’t have zero percent body fat, but I have great muscle tone and if I stand JUST the right way and suck in and flex I can kinda see a six pack.
I’m open to the possibility that I might be able to lift heavier and cycle harder if I ate more carbs; I just don’t see what that would add to my life. When I see the athletic-performance-based arguments against low-carb I really wish people would make it clearer that they apply more to people seeking peak performance than people who just want a healthy lifestyle. Most of the population will never notice a difference.
Honestly, I don't think most people on these forums are wanting to be elite athletes if we get down to the nitty gritty of it, so I never get why this is an argument in the first place!
I'm not a low carber by any means, but I have no aspirations to be a power lifter or elite runner. I just want to be a reasonably healthy middle aged woman who maintains her weight loss and enjoys her exercise. BTW, I never exercised in my life until I started all this. I'm entering my 4th year of consistently exercising. I don't want to be an elite performer, I just want to keep moving into my old age.
So great! The keto proponents on this forum who are recreational athletes can fuel their performance, and it works for them. That's awesome.10 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »tanyanie11 wrote: »how many carbs do you eat a day?
- a lot
- a lot
- maintaining
- no really the eating part, but getting into the habit of daily exercise was pretty hard
- 7 days a week
- 185
- never really went on a diet per say, but i did monitor my intake to learn how to eat better
- 50 to 60 lbs.
- 500 to 1000 active calories (exercise), plus my regular calories about 2000. So about 2500 to 3500 total.
As far as the subject line "Low Carb Diet" goes, if you exercise, you need more carbs because that is mainly what you burn when exercising.
I eat less than 50gm carbs /day usually under 30gm/day. Do chores on my hobby farm, run a household with 2 children and some dogs(oldest kid has moved off to college), manage to perform my job well every day, am improving weekly on the lifting I am doing again, can run a sub 8min mile, can easily hike 4mph for 15 plus miles in hilly terrain with a 40lb pack. None of these are amazing feats but all are possible with lowered carbohydrate intake. Promise.
He isn't saying you can't, but if you are at an elite level or very high performinh level than carbs will increase performance, especially when its explosive. There are a few excepts, but its a fraction of a fraction of athletes. That is fact.
I see it all the time with the people i train and train with. When they carb refeed after being on a keto diet, all of their lifts increase. And not by a few lbs. I have seen deadlifts increase as much as 30 lbs. Carbs increase ATP availability which increase energy out put.
Now when you hage severe IR or another medical issue, then increasing carbs is a terrible ideal and not a noteworthy N=1 expirement. That person would feel terrible.
OP, i lost weight and kept it off for 6 years at 300g of carbs. My current lifts are 345 lb DL, 285 Squat, 215 Bench and 145 OHP. I only do 10-15 min of cardio since its cold. When it was warm, i was doing 2 hrs of tennis. But when i was keto cycling, it kills my heavy lifts and my tennis stamina. That might be from not being fat adapted since i carb refeedes weekly.
The biggest key is protein. It should be 1.5-2.2g/kg od weight. Fats and carbs are personal preference.
Not saying it couldn't happen with lifters but most of the success stories I read about athletes who increase performance on keto are typically runners or endurance type people. Even so they will often have a nip of carbs during the event.
And even then, 99% of them have inferior to carb based althetes.
99% of low carb endurance athletes, even when using some carbs during an endurance event, are inferior to carb based athletes? That's a guestimate right? You'd have to do some math to account for the fewer number of low carb athletes compared to higher carb, and the fact that LCHF is still a relatively new idea to a group that traditionally does carb loading and Gu. I've never seen that figured out.
Its probably being generous actually, since there is like what, one guy who has performed at the top of his sport while being low carb.
And heck, even most of the keto/lchf athletes carb load before races.
And like you always say, keto and low carb have been around for a long time. They have also been in sports for a long time. Its really only the evidence based research that is newer.
Probably....the one guy...
I don't think you put very much though or research into this. They are many keto runners that experience a increase in speed after becoming fat adapted. Likewise there are many who dont. I was answering a question regarding low carb and lifting and thought that low carb mostly benefits endurance vs short burst demands. That for you that decends into keto sucks for 99% of athletes other than that one guy....
Oh, I certainly have. I don't deny that some will increase performance, but you would have to consider the variables, which I am sure is talked about less. Many athletes will have periods of very low carb diets so they can increase fat oxidation rates (so they can use fat more efficiently). But pre-race, they will carb load for several days to maximize glycogen capacity and will use gels intra-race to replenish glycogen. Why, because glycogen is much more effective for energy. And the science doesn't support low carb/keto eating. If you really want a unbiased look, than take every single elite athlete, across multiple sports, and see what they have in common.
And I am also speaking from being involved with sports my entire life and training people personally over the past decade.
And keep in mind, I am not suggesting that people shouldn't do keto or low carb, but more often than not, they will perform better with carbs. But if you don't care about getting every little extra ounce out of your performance, it doesn't matter.
Correct, I am a runner but don't even begin to think of myself as a performance athlete. Me I would probably not carb load before but would definitely have some gummies during the race (HM is my longest but only for fun). I have not tried a long run on keto yet so I really don't know how I will feel personally. I tore a ankle ligament skiing last winter and have struggled to get my miles back up. At a certain point an endurance athlete will need to augment with carbs if they are keto WOE. But they are still keto and can have success too.1 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »FlyingMolly wrote: »youngmomtaz wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »tanyanie11 wrote: »how many carbs do you eat a day?
- a lot
- a lot
- maintaining
- no really the eating part, but getting into the habit of daily exercise was pretty hard
- 7 days a week
- 185
- never really went on a diet per say, but i did monitor my intake to learn how to eat better
- 50 to 60 lbs.
- 500 to 1000 active calories (exercise), plus my regular calories about 2000. So about 2500 to 3500 total.
As far as the subject line "Low Carb Diet" goes, if you exercise, you need more carbs because that is mainly what you burn when exercising.
I eat less than 50gm carbs /day usually under 30gm/day. Do chores on my hobby farm, run a household with 2 children and some dogs(oldest kid has moved off to college), manage to perform my job well every day, am improving weekly on the lifting I am doing again, can run a sub 8min mile, can easily hike 4mph for 15 plus miles in hilly terrain with a 40lb pack. None of these are amazing feats but all are possible with lowered carbohydrate intake. Promise.
He isn't saying you can't, but if you are at an elite level or very high performinh level than carbs will increase performance, especially when its explosive. There are a few excepts, but its a fraction of a fraction of athletes. That is fact.
I see it all the time with the people i train and train with. When they carb refeed after being on a keto diet, all of their lifts increase. And not by a few lbs. I have seen deadlifts increase as much as 30 lbs. Carbs increase ATP availability which increase energy out put.
Now when you hage severe IR or another medical issue, then increasing carbs is a terrible ideal and not a noteworthy N=1 expirement. That person would feel terrible.
OP, i lost weight and kept it off for 6 years at 300g of carbs. My current lifts are 345 lb DL, 285 Squat, 215 Bench and 145 OHP. I only do 10-15 min of cardio since its cold. When it was warm, i was doing 2 hrs of tennis. But when i was keto cycling, it kills my heavy lifts and my tennis stamina. That might be from not being fat adapted since i carb refeedes weekly.
The biggest key is protein. It should be 1.5-2.2g/kg od weight. Fats and carbs are personal preference.
Not saying it couldn't happen with lifters but most of the success stories I read about athletes who increase performance on keto are typically runners or endurance type people. Even so they will often have a nip of carbs during the event.
And even then, 99% of them have inferior to carb based althetes.
99% of low carb endurance athletes, even when using some carbs during an endurance event, are inferior to carb based athletes? That's a guestimate right? You'd have to do some math to account for the fewer number of low carb athletes compared to higher carb, and the fact that LCHF is still a relatively new idea to a group that traditionally does carb loading and Gu. I've never seen that figured out.
Its probably being generous actually, since there is like what, one guy who has performed at the top of his sport while being low carb.
And heck, even most of the keto/lchf athletes carb load before races.
And like you always say, keto and low carb have been around for a long time. They have also been in sports for a long time. Its really only the evidence based research that is newer.
Probably....the one guy...
I don't think you put very much though or research into this. They are many keto runners that experience a increase in speed after becoming fat adapted. Likewise there are many who dont. I was answering a question regarding low carb and lifting and thought that low carb mostly benefits endurance vs short burst demands. That for you that decends into keto sucks for 99% of athletes other than that one guy....
Oh, I certainly have. I don't deny that some will increase performance, but you would have to consider the variables, which I am sure is talked about less. Many athletes will have periods of very low carb diets so they can increase fat oxidation rates (so they can use fat more efficiently). But pre-race, they will carb load for several days to maximize glycogen capacity and will use gels intra-race to replenish glycogen. Why, because glycogen is much more effective for energy. And the science doesn't support low carb/keto eating. If you really want a unbiased look, than take every single elite athlete, across multiple sports, and see what they have in common.
And I am also speaking from being involved with sports my entire life and training people personally over the past decade.
And keep in mind, I am not suggesting that people shouldn't do keto or low carb, but more often than not, they will perform better with carbs. But if you don't care about getting every little extra ounce out of your performance, it doesn't matter.
This is it for me. I love fitness and I want to be healthy, but the honest truth is I’ve always worked out hoping to look a certain way.
Keto helped me get to my goal weight, and the fit body I had built underneath was still there. I mulched a huge garden last week and wasn’t even sore the next day. I’m not jacked and I don’t have zero percent body fat, but I have great muscle tone and if I stand JUST the right way and suck in and flex I can kinda see a six pack.
I’m open to the possibility that I might be able to lift heavier and cycle harder if I ate more carbs; I just don’t see what that would add to my life. When I see the athletic-performance-based arguments against low-carb I really wish people would make it clearer that they apply more to people seeking peak performance than people who just want a healthy lifestyle. Most of the population will never notice a difference.
Honestly, I don't think most people on these forums are wanting to be elite athletes if we get down to the nitty gritty of it, so I never get why this is an argument in the first place!
I'm not a low carber by any means, but I have no aspirations to be a power lifter or elite runner. I just want to be a reasonably healthy middle aged woman who maintains her weight loss and enjoys her exercise. BTW, I never exercised in my life until I started all this. I'm entering my 4th year of consistently exercising. I don't want to be an elite performer, I just want to keep moving into my old age.
So great! The keto proponents on this forum who are recreational athletes can fuel their performance, and it works for them. That's awesome.
For the most part, I agree with both you and FlyingMolly. For most people it is mostly immaterial. Interestingly, I do eat lowish carb, around 100 to 150 per day. I do it for no other reason than preference and satiety.
I also weight train. My program consists of both power days and hypertrophy days, so not all power lifting. My higher carb days tend to be the days I train. And I do notice a difference. I recover more quickly between sets and have more energy to power through the workout. So, for me, I get more out of the time spent in the gym with slightly higher carbs. It isn't just about lifting more weight but about overall performance with high intensity kinds of activities.
That being said, if you are not a professional or elite level athlete, it probably doesn't make much difference. And if walking, light jogging or light biking, in other words, most forms of Low Intensity Steady State, is your primary form of exercise, it likely makes no difference at all.
As always, preference and adherence should be your driving factors.4 -
Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »It amazes me how far the ketovaneglists will extend their blinders to reality just to keep believing and pushing the belief. the world around them proves otherwise, yet here we are.
Ketovaeglist? I enjoy the keto WOE and I have responded well after switching to it and God forbid I may even talk about it. So shield your eyes so your world stays intact. To my knowledge I have not convinced anyone to stop what whatever they are doing to try keto. So I and the keto movement are both failures. (putting blinders back on now til the world proves otherwise)7 -
As far as keto and athletics are concerned, there's one activity in which keto really shines - ultra marathons. An ordinary carb-adapted athlete has to take in regular carbs during a long run or bonk from lack of fuel. A keto-adapted athlete can keep going as long as they have fat stores. There's a regular poster here who is a sponsored ultra runner, and she's a keto runner.
However, most of us don't aspire to run 50 miles at a stretch.
Also coming down on the keto side of things - it's estimated that about a third of Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic, most undiagnosed. These people have developed some degree of insulin insensitivity and would benefit from a lower-carb diet. While it's possible to greatly improve your insulin sensitivity by simply eating lower carb, without having to go full keto, some people may find it easier to give up carbs than count them.
On the other side, what I don't like about the keto movement is that it causes people to overcomplicate things. When some poor person comes onto the forums and says, "I can't lose weight because I eat bread!" it makes me angry for them, because they have been lied to. It is not necessary to follow any specific diet in order to lose weight, only to eat at a deficit. Keto is only one tool which can help people maintain a deficit. If keto is a stumbling block to you rather than a tool, throw that tool aside and pick another tool.5 -
rheddmobile wrote: »As far as keto and athletics are concerned, there's one activity in which keto really shines - ultra marathons. An ordinary carb-adapted athlete has to take in regular carbs during a long run or bonk from lack of fuel. A keto-adapted athlete can keep going as long as they have fat stores. There's a regular poster here who is a sponsored ultra runner, and she's a keto runner.
However, most of us don't aspire to run 50 miles at a stretch.
Also coming down on the keto side of things - it's estimated that about a third of Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic, most undiagnosed. These people have developed some degree of insulin insensitivity and would benefit from a lower-carb diet. While it's possible to greatly improve your insulin sensitivity by simply eating lower carb, without having to go full keto, some people may find it easier to give up carbs than count them.
On the other side, what I don't like about the keto movement is that it causes people to overcomplicate things. When some poor person comes onto the forums and says, "I can't lose weight because I eat bread!" it makes me angry for them, because they have been lied to. It is not necessary to follow any specific diet in order to lose weight, only to eat at a deficit. Keto is only one tool which can help people maintain a deficit. If keto is a stumbling block to you rather than a tool, throw that tool aside and pick another tool.
I know that keto and ultra marathoning are compatible, in the sense that it's possible to do keto and also do ultra marathons. To say it "really shines," I think I'd want to see that a higher proportion of elite ultra marathons were adopting this way of life and I don't know if we're seeing that yet.
Are ketogenic ultra-marathoners forgoing any sort of fueling during a ultra? And aren't they still typically consuming more carbohydrates during the weeks when their training demand is higher?6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »As far as keto and athletics are concerned, there's one activity in which keto really shines - ultra marathons. An ordinary carb-adapted athlete has to take in regular carbs during a long run or bonk from lack of fuel. A keto-adapted athlete can keep going as long as they have fat stores. There's a regular poster here who is a sponsored ultra runner, and she's a keto runner.
However, most of us don't aspire to run 50 miles at a stretch.
Also coming down on the keto side of things - it's estimated that about a third of Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic, most undiagnosed. These people have developed some degree of insulin insensitivity and would benefit from a lower-carb diet. While it's possible to greatly improve your insulin sensitivity by simply eating lower carb, without having to go full keto, some people may find it easier to give up carbs than count them.
On the other side, what I don't like about the keto movement is that it causes people to overcomplicate things. When some poor person comes onto the forums and says, "I can't lose weight because I eat bread!" it makes me angry for them, because they have been lied to. It is not necessary to follow any specific diet in order to lose weight, only to eat at a deficit. Keto is only one tool which can help people maintain a deficit. If keto is a stumbling block to you rather than a tool, throw that tool aside and pick another tool.
I know that keto and ultra marathoning are compatible, in the sense that it's possible to do keto and also do ultra marathons. To say it "really shines," I think I'd want to see that a higher proportion of elite ultra marathons were adopting this way of life and I don't know if we're seeing that yet.
Are ketogenic ultra-marathoners forgoing any sort of fueling during a ultra? And aren't they still typically consuming more carbohydrates during the weeks when their training demand is higher?
This may be one of those some do increase carbs prior and some don't. It would seem to me that if a person is fat adapted increasing carbs in training would start to cut into your ability to use fat for fuel during the run. As said even if fat adapted you will run out of fuel eventually and need some carbs during the run but not as soon or badly as a carb loader from what I understand.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »As far as keto and athletics are concerned, there's one activity in which keto really shines - ultra marathons. An ordinary carb-adapted athlete has to take in regular carbs during a long run or bonk from lack of fuel. A keto-adapted athlete can keep going as long as they have fat stores. There's a regular poster here who is a sponsored ultra runner, and she's a keto runner.
However, most of us don't aspire to run 50 miles at a stretch.
Also coming down on the keto side of things - it's estimated that about a third of Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic, most undiagnosed. These people have developed some degree of insulin insensitivity and would benefit from a lower-carb diet. While it's possible to greatly improve your insulin sensitivity by simply eating lower carb, without having to go full keto, some people may find it easier to give up carbs than count them.
On the other side, what I don't like about the keto movement is that it causes people to overcomplicate things. When some poor person comes onto the forums and says, "I can't lose weight because I eat bread!" it makes me angry for them, because they have been lied to. It is not necessary to follow any specific diet in order to lose weight, only to eat at a deficit. Keto is only one tool which can help people maintain a deficit. If keto is a stumbling block to you rather than a tool, throw that tool aside and pick another tool.
I know that keto and ultra marathoning are compatible, in the sense that it's possible to do keto and also do ultra marathons. To say it "really shines," I think I'd want to see that a higher proportion of elite ultra marathons were adopting this way of life and I don't know if we're seeing that yet.
Are ketogenic ultra-marathoners forgoing any sort of fueling during a ultra? And aren't they still typically consuming more carbohydrates during the weeks when their training demand is higher?
This may be one of those some do increase carbs prior and some don't. It would seem to me that if a person is fat adapted increasing carbs in training would start to cut into your ability to use fat for fuel during the run. As said even if fat adapted you will run out of fuel eventually and need some carbs during the run but not as soon or badly as a carb loader from what I understand.
It may seem that way to you, but I'm not sure that's actually how it works out.
Zach Bitter, an elite ultra marathoner, increases carbohydrates in training: "Actually, when I’m in my higher training points, the hard part is bringing back a carbohydrate because I’ve gotten so used to enjoying some of the more savory foods." He also says that he eats more carbohydrates than he would if he wasn't an elite athlete: "If I weren’t running as much, I would eat way fewer carbohydrates, and I would consume more fat because I’m not asking myself to do anything in that high-performance space. You can easily do daily tasks by metabolizing fat." I think it's a key point that he doesn't seem to have adopted the ketogenic diet in order to be a better *ultra marathoner*, it was to deal with other issues he was facing. I think it's far from clear that this diet "really shines" for ultra marathoners -- we just don't have enough information to conclude that. It's clear that even the ultra marathoners who have adopted it seem to be eating more carbohydrates than others doing keto and that they are timing their carbohydrate intake to better support their athletic goals.
Do you have an example of an ultra marathoner doing keto who doesn't increase carbohydrates to help support the periods when they are training more?
Source: https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/zach-bitter-100-mile-american-record-holder-he-also-eats-almost-no-carbs/8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »As far as keto and athletics are concerned, there's one activity in which keto really shines - ultra marathons. An ordinary carb-adapted athlete has to take in regular carbs during a long run or bonk from lack of fuel. A keto-adapted athlete can keep going as long as they have fat stores. There's a regular poster here who is a sponsored ultra runner, and she's a keto runner.
However, most of us don't aspire to run 50 miles at a stretch.
Also coming down on the keto side of things - it's estimated that about a third of Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic, most undiagnosed. These people have developed some degree of insulin insensitivity and would benefit from a lower-carb diet. While it's possible to greatly improve your insulin sensitivity by simply eating lower carb, without having to go full keto, some people may find it easier to give up carbs than count them.
On the other side, what I don't like about the keto movement is that it causes people to overcomplicate things. When some poor person comes onto the forums and says, "I can't lose weight because I eat bread!" it makes me angry for them, because they have been lied to. It is not necessary to follow any specific diet in order to lose weight, only to eat at a deficit. Keto is only one tool which can help people maintain a deficit. If keto is a stumbling block to you rather than a tool, throw that tool aside and pick another tool.
I know that keto and ultra marathoning are compatible, in the sense that it's possible to do keto and also do ultra marathons. To say it "really shines," I think I'd want to see that a higher proportion of elite ultra marathons were adopting this way of life and I don't know if we're seeing that yet.
Are ketogenic ultra-marathoners forgoing any sort of fueling during a ultra? And aren't they still typically consuming more carbohydrates during the weeks when their training demand is higher?
This may be one of those some do increase carbs prior and some don't. It would seem to me that if a person is fat adapted increasing carbs in training would start to cut into your ability to use fat for fuel during the run. As said even if fat adapted you will run out of fuel eventually and need some carbs during the run but not as soon or badly as a carb loader from what I understand.
It may seem that way to you, but I'm not sure that's actually how it works out.
Zach Bitter, an elite ultra marathoner increases carbohydrates in training: "Actually, when I’m in my higher training points, the hard part is bringing back a carbohydrate because I’ve gotten so used to enjoying some of the more savory foods." He also says that he eats more carbohydrates than he would if he wasn't an elite athlete: "If I weren’t running as much, I would eat way fewer carbohydrates, and I would consume more fat because I’m not asking myself to do anything in that high-performance space. You can easily do daily tasks by metabolizing fat." I think it's a key point that he doesn't seem to have adopted the ketogenic diet in order to be a better *ultra marathoner*, it was to deal with other issues he was facing. I think it's far from clear that this diet "really shines" for ultra marathoners -- we just don't have enough information to conclude that. It's clear that even the ultra marathoners who have adopted it seem to be eating more carbohydrates than others doing keto and that they are timing their carbohydrate intake to better support their athletic goals.
Do you have an example of an ultra marathoner doing keto who doesn't increase carbohydrates to help support the periods when they are training more?
Source: https://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/zach-bitter-100-mile-american-record-holder-he-also-eats-almost-no-carbs/
Unfortunately I haven't seen the lady I was talking about on the forums recently, or you could ask her. But it's my understanding she does not increase carbs and she does limited fueling during races.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »As far as keto and athletics are concerned, there's one activity in which keto really shines - ultra marathons. An ordinary carb-adapted athlete has to take in regular carbs during a long run or bonk from lack of fuel. A keto-adapted athlete can keep going as long as they have fat stores. There's a regular poster here who is a sponsored ultra runner, and she's a keto runner.
However, most of us don't aspire to run 50 miles at a stretch.
Also coming down on the keto side of things - it's estimated that about a third of Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic, most undiagnosed. These people have developed some degree of insulin insensitivity and would benefit from a lower-carb diet. While it's possible to greatly improve your insulin sensitivity by simply eating lower carb, without having to go full keto, some people may find it easier to give up carbs than count them.
On the other side, what I don't like about the keto movement is that it causes people to overcomplicate things. When some poor person comes onto the forums and says, "I can't lose weight because I eat bread!" it makes me angry for them, because they have been lied to. It is not necessary to follow any specific diet in order to lose weight, only to eat at a deficit. Keto is only one tool which can help people maintain a deficit. If keto is a stumbling block to you rather than a tool, throw that tool aside and pick another tool.
I know that keto and ultra marathoning are compatible, in the sense that it's possible to do keto and also do ultra marathons. To say it "really shines," I think I'd want to see that a higher proportion of elite ultra marathons were adopting this way of life and I don't know if we're seeing that yet.
Are ketogenic ultra-marathoners forgoing any sort of fueling during a ultra? And aren't they still typically consuming more carbohydrates during the weeks when their training demand is higher?
Elite athletes are those who are at/near their genetic potential and are looking for any possible edge, no matter how small, over the competition. If keto was truly an optimal approach for ultra-endurance sports (or any sport, for that matter), the elite athletes in those sports would have latched onto it and it would be the rule rather than the scant exception. If/when we start seeing 80-90% of the top athletes in any given sport adhering to a ketogenic diet, I'll start believing there's something to it as far as athletic performance.6 -
Going back to what i originally said in the first place...
If you exercise a lot, you should probably eat more carbs.
If you are sedentary, you should probably eat less carbs.
And i will add...
Eating a nutritious well balanced diet (all the food groups) is probably the best thing to do.10 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »youngmomtaz wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »tanyanie11 wrote: »how many carbs do you eat a day?
- a lot
- a lot
- maintaining
- no really the eating part, but getting into the habit of daily exercise was pretty hard
- 7 days a week
- 185
- never really went on a diet per say, but i did monitor my intake to learn how to eat better
- 50 to 60 lbs.
- 500 to 1000 active calories (exercise), plus my regular calories about 2000. So about 2500 to 3500 total.
As far as the subject line "Low Carb Diet" goes, if you exercise, you need more carbs because that is mainly what you burn when exercising.
I eat less than 50gm carbs /day usually under 30gm/day. Do chores on my hobby farm, run a household with 2 children and some dogs(oldest kid has moved off to college), manage to perform my job well every day, am improving weekly on the lifting I am doing again, can run a sub 8min mile, can easily hike 4mph for 15 plus miles in hilly terrain with a 40lb pack. None of these are amazing feats but all are possible with lowered carbohydrate intake. Promise.
He isn't saying you can't, but if you are at an elite level or very high performinh level than carbs will increase performance, especially when its explosive. There are a few excepts, but its a fraction of a fraction of athletes. That is fact.
I see it all the time with the people i train and train with. When they carb refeed after being on a keto diet, all of their lifts increase. And not by a few lbs. I have seen deadlifts increase as much as 30 lbs. Carbs increase ATP availability which increase energy out put.
Now when you hage severe IR or another medical issue, then increasing carbs is a terrible ideal and not a noteworthy N=1 expirement. That person would feel terrible.
OP, i lost weight and kept it off for 6 years at 300g of carbs. My current lifts are 345 lb DL, 285 Squat, 215 Bench and 145 OHP. I only do 10-15 min of cardio since its cold. When it was warm, i was doing 2 hrs of tennis. But when i was keto cycling, it kills my heavy lifts and my tennis stamina. That might be from not being fat adapted since i carb refeedes weekly.
The biggest key is protein. It should be 1.5-2.2g/kg od weight. Fats and carbs are personal preference.
Not saying it couldn't happen with lifters but most of the success stories I read about athletes who increase performance on keto are typically runners or endurance type people. Even so they will often have a nip of carbs during the event.
And even then, 99% of them have inferior to carb based althetes.
99% of low carb endurance athletes, even when using some carbs during an endurance event, are inferior to carb based athletes? That's a guestimate right? You'd have to do some math to account for the fewer number of low carb athletes compared to higher carb, and the fact that LCHF is still a relatively new idea to a group that traditionally does carb loading and Gu. I've never seen that figured out.
Its probably being generous actually, since there is like what, one guy who has performed at the top of his sport while being low carb.
And heck, even most of the keto/lchf athletes carb load before races.
And like you always say, keto and low carb have been around for a long time. They have also been in sports for a long time. Its really only the evidence based research that is newer.
What I meant was if you look at the total number of low carbers compared to the pool of higher carbers, I doubt that 99% is correct.
But who knows. It may be. Time will tell.
Your elite athletes normally come with sports scientists that are the top in their field. There would be a reason why they are not doing low carb and that would be because science has shown time and again that this is not a suitable diet for peak performance. They would be doing everything possible to give their athletes the winning edge.
There is no way that your knowledge would be superior to theirs.
I'm not sure what you think I said. I never mentioned elite athletes. I said this:OldAssDude wrote: »tanyanie11 wrote: »how many carbs do you eat a day?- a lot
- a lot
- maintaining
- no really the eating part, but getting into the habit of daily exercise was pretty hard
- 7 days a week
- 185
- never really went on a diet per say, but i did monitor my intake to learn how to eat better
- 50 to 60 lbs.
- 500 to 1000 active calories (exercise), plus my regular calories about 2000. So about 2500 to 3500 total.
As far as the subject line "Low Carb Diet" goes, if you exercise, you need more carbs because that is mainly what you burn when exercising.
This is actually a myth. The body can use carbs or fat. When switching to fats, there is an adaptation time which can last a few weeks to a few months where you might feel your performance is affected a bit. After that, it is pretty equal to carbs. Possibly slightly better for endurance events and possibly slightly worse for explosive events like sprinting or power lifting.
And then I questioned the 99% number as being a guess, rather than a real statistic, when comparing all low carbers and all high carbers. I would guess that for every one athlete who eats low carb, there are hundreds of athletes who eat higher carb. Technically speaking, there should be way more top athletes who are higher carb because there are so many more of them.
When it comes to the elite athletes, I would guess that they would need a lot of evidence before they would be willing to switch their diet if it is already working well for them. Just a guess.5 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »youngmomtaz wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »tanyanie11 wrote: »how many carbs do you eat a day?
- a lot
- a lot
- maintaining
- no really the eating part, but getting into the habit of daily exercise was pretty hard
- 7 days a week
- 185
- never really went on a diet per say, but i did monitor my intake to learn how to eat better
- 50 to 60 lbs.
- 500 to 1000 active calories (exercise), plus my regular calories about 2000. So about 2500 to 3500 total.
As far as the subject line "Low Carb Diet" goes, if you exercise, you need more carbs because that is mainly what you burn when exercising.
I eat less than 50gm carbs /day usually under 30gm/day. Do chores on my hobby farm, run a household with 2 children and some dogs(oldest kid has moved off to college), manage to perform my job well every day, am improving weekly on the lifting I am doing again, can run a sub 8min mile, can easily hike 4mph for 15 plus miles in hilly terrain with a 40lb pack. None of these are amazing feats but all are possible with lowered carbohydrate intake. Promise.
He isn't saying you can't, but if you are at an elite level or very high performinh level than carbs will increase performance, especially when its explosive. There are a few excepts, but its a fraction of a fraction of athletes. That is fact.
I see it all the time with the people i train and train with. When they carb refeed after being on a keto diet, all of their lifts increase. And not by a few lbs. I have seen deadlifts increase as much as 30 lbs. Carbs increase ATP availability which increase energy out put.
Now when you hage severe IR or another medical issue, then increasing carbs is a terrible ideal and not a noteworthy N=1 expirement. That person would feel terrible.
OP, i lost weight and kept it off for 6 years at 300g of carbs. My current lifts are 345 lb DL, 285 Squat, 215 Bench and 145 OHP. I only do 10-15 min of cardio since its cold. When it was warm, i was doing 2 hrs of tennis. But when i was keto cycling, it kills my heavy lifts and my tennis stamina. That might be from not being fat adapted since i carb refeedes weekly.
The biggest key is protein. It should be 1.5-2.2g/kg od weight. Fats and carbs are personal preference.
Not saying it couldn't happen with lifters but most of the success stories I read about athletes who increase performance on keto are typically runners or endurance type people. Even so they will often have a nip of carbs during the event.
And even then, 99% of them have inferior to carb based althetes.
99% of low carb endurance athletes, even when using some carbs during an endurance event, are inferior to carb based athletes? That's a guestimate right? You'd have to do some math to account for the fewer number of low carb athletes compared to higher carb, and the fact that LCHF is still a relatively new idea to a group that traditionally does carb loading and Gu. I've never seen that figured out.
Its probably being generous actually, since there is like what, one guy who has performed at the top of his sport while being low carb.
And heck, even most of the keto/lchf athletes carb load before races.
And like you always say, keto and low carb have been around for a long time. They have also been in sports for a long time. Its really only the evidence based research that is newer.
What I meant was if you look at the total number of low carbers compared to the pool of higher carbers, I doubt that 99% is correct.
But who knows. It may be. Time will tell.
Your elite athletes normally come with sports scientists that are the top in their field. There would be a reason why they are not doing low carb and that would be because science has shown time and again that this is not a suitable diet for peak performance. They would be doing everything possible to give their athletes the winning edge.
There is no way that your knowledge would be superior to theirs.
I'm not sure what you think I said. I never mentioned elite athletes. I said this:OldAssDude wrote: »tanyanie11 wrote: »how many carbs do you eat a day?- a lot
- a lot
- maintaining
- no really the eating part, but getting into the habit of daily exercise was pretty hard
- 7 days a week
- 185
- never really went on a diet per say, but i did monitor my intake to learn how to eat better
- 50 to 60 lbs.
- 500 to 1000 active calories (exercise), plus my regular calories about 2000. So about 2500 to 3500 total.
As far as the subject line "Low Carb Diet" goes, if you exercise, you need more carbs because that is mainly what you burn when exercising.
This is actually a myth. The body can use carbs or fat. When switching to fats, there is an adaptation time which can last a few weeks to a few months where you might feel your performance is affected a bit. After that, it is pretty equal to carbs. Possibly slightly better for endurance events and possibly slightly worse for explosive events like sprinting or power lifting.
And then I questioned the 99% number as being a guess, rather than a real statistic, when comparing all low carbers and all high carbers. I would guess that for every one athlete who eats low carb, there are hundreds of athletes who eat higher carb. Technically speaking, there should be way more top athletes who are higher carb because there are so many more of them.
When it comes to the elite athletes, I would guess that they would need a lot of evidence before they would be willing to switch their diet if it is already working well for them. Just a guess.
The problem is that there isn't evidence to support your claim that even once adapted, that fat => carbs. Its why even fat adapted athletes still carb load pre event. And as you have suggested, even Dr. Attia calls carbs a performance enhancing drug.
When you take metabolically health individuals, carbs improve performance. Does it matter for a person like the OP? Probably not though. If she would like, she coule certainly goes through periods of both. Would that be beneficial? Probably. Its similar to working a variety of set and rep ranges for lifting. It will allow your body to adapt to several metabolic states.5 -
Lillymoo01 wrote: »youngmomtaz wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »tanyanie11 wrote: »how many carbs do you eat a day?
- a lot
- a lot
- maintaining
- no really the eating part, but getting into the habit of daily exercise was pretty hard
- 7 days a week
- 185
- never really went on a diet per say, but i did monitor my intake to learn how to eat better
- 50 to 60 lbs.
- 500 to 1000 active calories (exercise), plus my regular calories about 2000. So about 2500 to 3500 total.
As far as the subject line "Low Carb Diet" goes, if you exercise, you need more carbs because that is mainly what you burn when exercising.
I eat less than 50gm carbs /day usually under 30gm/day. Do chores on my hobby farm, run a household with 2 children and some dogs(oldest kid has moved off to college), manage to perform my job well every day, am improving weekly on the lifting I am doing again, can run a sub 8min mile, can easily hike 4mph for 15 plus miles in hilly terrain with a 40lb pack. None of these are amazing feats but all are possible with lowered carbohydrate intake. Promise.
He isn't saying you can't, but if you are at an elite level or very high performinh level than carbs will increase performance, especially when its explosive. There are a few excepts, but its a fraction of a fraction of athletes. That is fact.
I see it all the time with the people i train and train with. When they carb refeed after being on a keto diet, all of their lifts increase. And not by a few lbs. I have seen deadlifts increase as much as 30 lbs. Carbs increase ATP availability which increase energy out put.
Now when you hage severe IR or another medical issue, then increasing carbs is a terrible ideal and not a noteworthy N=1 expirement. That person would feel terrible.
OP, i lost weight and kept it off for 6 years at 300g of carbs. My current lifts are 345 lb DL, 285 Squat, 215 Bench and 145 OHP. I only do 10-15 min of cardio since its cold. When it was warm, i was doing 2 hrs of tennis. But when i was keto cycling, it kills my heavy lifts and my tennis stamina. That might be from not being fat adapted since i carb refeedes weekly.
The biggest key is protein. It should be 1.5-2.2g/kg od weight. Fats and carbs are personal preference.
Not saying it couldn't happen with lifters but most of the success stories I read about athletes who increase performance on keto are typically runners or endurance type people. Even so they will often have a nip of carbs during the event.
And even then, 99% of them have inferior to carb based althetes.
99% of low carb endurance athletes, even when using some carbs during an endurance event, are inferior to carb based athletes? That's a guestimate right? You'd have to do some math to account for the fewer number of low carb athletes compared to higher carb, and the fact that LCHF is still a relatively new idea to a group that traditionally does carb loading and Gu. I've never seen that figured out.
Its probably being generous actually, since there is like what, one guy who has performed at the top of his sport while being low carb.
And heck, even most of the keto/lchf athletes carb load before races.
And like you always say, keto and low carb have been around for a long time. They have also been in sports for a long time. Its really only the evidence based research that is newer.
What I meant was if you look at the total number of low carbers compared to the pool of higher carbers, I doubt that 99% is correct.
But who knows. It may be. Time will tell.
Your elite athletes normally come with sports scientists that are the top in their field. There would be a reason why they are not doing low carb and that would be because science has shown time and again that this is not a suitable diet for peak performance. They would be doing everything possible to give their athletes the winning edge.
There is no way that your knowledge would be superior to theirs.
I'm not sure what you think I said. I never mentioned elite athletes. I said this:OldAssDude wrote: »tanyanie11 wrote: »how many carbs do you eat a day?- a lot
- a lot
- maintaining
- no really the eating part, but getting into the habit of daily exercise was pretty hard
- 7 days a week
- 185
- never really went on a diet per say, but i did monitor my intake to learn how to eat better
- 50 to 60 lbs.
- 500 to 1000 active calories (exercise), plus my regular calories about 2000. So about 2500 to 3500 total.
As far as the subject line "Low Carb Diet" goes, if you exercise, you need more carbs because that is mainly what you burn when exercising.
This is actually a myth. The body can use carbs or fat. When switching to fats, there is an adaptation time which can last a few weeks to a few months where you might feel your performance is affected a bit. After that, it is pretty equal to carbs. Possibly slightly better for endurance events and possibly slightly worse for explosive events like sprinting or power lifting.
And then I questioned the 99% number as being a guess, rather than a real statistic, when comparing all low carbers and all high carbers. I would guess that for every one athlete who eats low carb, there are hundreds of athletes who eat higher carb. Technically speaking, there should be way more top athletes who are higher carb because there are so many more of them.
When it comes to the elite athletes, I would guess that they would need a lot of evidence before they would be willing to switch their diet if it is already working well for them. Just a guess.
The problem is that there isn't evidence to support your claim that even once adapted, that fat => carbs. Its why even fat adapted athletes still carb load pre event. And as you have suggested, even Dr. Attia calls carbs a performance enhancing drug.
When you take metabolically health individuals, carbs improve performance. Does it matter for a person like the OP? Probably not though. If she would like, she coule certainly goes through periods of both. Would that be beneficial? Probably. Its similar to working a variety of set and rep ranges for lifting. It will allow your body to adapt to several metabolic states.
I'm not really saying that fat is better than carbs for exercise though. Eating a fat based diet may help with endurance, but that was the extent of my comment. Those fat adapted individuals may eat carbs around their event for an extra boost (probably not as much as a carb fueled athlete would) but using carbs as a performance enhancing substance does not make those athletes not low carb. KWIM?
But, as you say, it probably does not matter much for the OP or the average Joe.1
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