Is there free will?
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Heather_Norwood wrote: »Free will is an illusion = D
So is dreaming.....but if all you did was dream, wouldnt that be your reality?7 -
JeromeBarry1 wrote: »
It is interesting that in classical terms, free will was more to do with the fortitude of a man to rise above social/economical/political constraints, which in itself inferes that living in such an enviornment would never allow true free will.0 -
Chael2dot0 wrote: »SabAteNine wrote: »As such it is not „free” in the strictest sense. It is molded and conditioned by the above
This runs with the "mouse in the maze" thought of free will, in that you can put a mouse in a maze and the mouse certainly has the ability to chose the direction it wants to go, but to what end can it go? It is a predefined space overa.
In that sense, based on the construct around us, we do not have free will because we are fully vested in the ecosystem we live. E.g. - we cannot make a decision beyond where, when, and how we exist.
We can make any decisions we want, within the confines of our own minds, context and resources. And this endowment may seem like a LOT, but objectively speaking, all three have their very concrete limits - much like those of the mouse in the maze.
And in the end, it may well be that we live in a simulation anyway
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I think all choices you make are predetermined by your genes and the experience you have had so far, therefore every choice could be predicted with a strong enough computer. Though there are so many factors involved i dont think it will ever be realistically possible to predetermine someones actions and as such im fine with not having free will.1
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To me, free will is consciousness. It is in this yearning for consciousness that we can cultivate our mind and body. Awareness breeds consciousness. I think the universe does a good enough job letting us know when we're screwing up. So if it's in our best interest to make decisions that don't inflict suffering on ourselves and onto others, then we must take time to cultivate our thoughts and ideas in such a way that it will lead to actions of peace and fulfillment. It all starts with awareness. 👁️ 🌐 🦄6
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andreascjonsson wrote: »I think all choices you make are predetermined by your genes and the experience you have had so far, therefore every choice could be predicted with a strong enough computer. Though there are so many factors involved i dont think it will ever be realistically possible to predetermine someones actions and as such im fine with not having free will.
Then why...do you persist?!3 -
Chael2dot0 wrote: »SabAteNine wrote: »As such it is not „free” in the strictest sense. It is molded and conditioned by the above
This runs with the "mouse in the maze" thought of free will, in that you can put a mouse in a maze and the mouse certainly has the ability to chose the direction it wants to go, but to what end can it go? It is a predefined space overa.
In that sense, based on the construct around us, we do not have free will because we are fully vested in the ecosystem we live. E.g. - we cannot make a decision beyond where, when, and how we exist.
Agreed. I believe we all have free will, within the constraints of a box. Practice can enlarge that box, but it's still a box.3 -
You guys just wrecked me.
From now on, I'm just gonna sit here at let crap happen to me...
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Chael2dot0 wrote: »
Damn it! You got me there.3 -
CoffeeAndContour wrote: »I like to believe we have free will, however I don’t feel we will ever have a solid answer to this question.
Yes!
I don't know if we have free will or not, and I'm ok with not knowing. There is a lot of stuff I don't know, and there is a safety and an innocence in that.
I like the idea of free will, but I also like the idea of "destiny" (I think because it helps 'excuse' my bad choices).
Off topic a bit...but something that I think of fairly often that bothers me a lot is the fact that I've tried so hard to be "free" in life. I'm very cautious about commitments, I have little responsibility...essentially I am "free"...but I don't do enough with it.
I will be done paying for my car next year, and have been getting rid of as many possessions as I can in the past little while...wonder if then I'll feel "free"?
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I watched this video just yesterday about free will not existing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwaXqep-bpk
TL;DW
We either choose to do something or are forced too. Choice is dependent on wants, but we don't actually control our wants, so free will doesn't truly exist.
I found considering this as true actually made me feel rather zen.0 -
FeelinFooFoo wrote: »There is free will. But......only if we WANT there to be....
Is that right? Does free will extend to just using your imagination to design your own world? Like. What even is free will? It's just words. Does it even mean anything ?
Hmmm.
Good point. "Free will" should be defined. There are 2 tracts developing here; the religious/philosophical sense of fate/destiny or lack thereof (one cannot go to heaven or hell if they are not destined for it upon death), and the bio/psycho/social one, i.e. our "freedom of choice" within our own society/government/environment/socioeconomic status, etc.
Usually "bad" is identified with fate, "he had no choice", "It is your destiny", "He was a bad apple", "came from the wrong side of the tracks" Our penal system is based on this. Life sentences and the death penalty wouldn't exist if "bad" people weren't destined to be bad. When someone goes badly, we are not at fault (unless fate is involved).
Usually "good" is identified with free will. "if you put your mind to it", "if you try hard enough", "pulled up by their boot straps" When someone does well, it was their choice, they made it happen- they executed their free will.
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Chael2dot0 wrote: »SabAteNine wrote: »As such it is not „free” in the strictest sense. It is molded and conditioned by the above
This runs with the "mouse in the maze" thought of free will, in that you can put a mouse in a maze and the mouse certainly has the ability to chose the direction it wants to go, but to what end can it go? It is a predefined space overa.
In that sense, based on the construct around us, we do not have free will because we are fully vested in the ecosystem we live. E.g. - we cannot make a decision beyond where, when, and how we exist.
Au contraire, we can walk in the paths of righteousness or the paths of perdition. The second is easy, the first is more difficult, but, if we choose that path, we have a helper in the form of the Holy Spirit, given to us when we accept the invitation of Jesus, the Christ. Fortunately, when we are in Christ, our poor choices have already been forgiven and paid for.2 -
Well I ate sorbet in the bathtub tonight so there’s your answer.3
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Prediction modeling also argues free will doesn't really exist. Sample sizes don't have to be that big, a political survey of a few hundred people can predict pretty closely how we will vote. Medical surveys can predict our lifespan within a margin of error, and our own texting apps have gotten pretty good at predicting our word choices. Across the board, the choices we freely make can be predicted with great accuracy.3
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Growing up Anglican, I was taught before my confirmation, that my own conscience is the element within the one spool that will determine the kind of person I will choose to be. Free will = my conscience. It was not God, rather me.
I have always interpreted it as, my free will is only as liberal in scope as my conscience allows it to be.3 -
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Prediction modeling also argues free will doesn't really exist. Sample sizes don't have to be that big, a political survey of a few hundred people can predict pretty closely how we will vote. Medical surveys can predict our lifespan within a margin of error, and our own texting apps have gotten pretty good at predicting our word choices. Across the board, the choices we freely make can be predicted with great accuracy.
To me, someone or something being "predictable", may still have free will. I'm free to order whatever I like when I walk in the deli every morning, but the cook at the deli almost always correctly predicts what I'm going to order.
But I'm still free to ask for a bowl of tofu instead of my usual bacon and eggs. It's just highly unlikely that I would ever make such a choice.
Maybe, but given how you felt on that day, you would have chosen the same thing if you relived the day over 1000 times, as such it was the only thing you could have chosen at the time, based on what you craved, like, etc. and on that day you had to choose that, whether it felt like you had another choice or not.... that is the "illusion of free will"2 -
I prefer to leave religion out of this and say, I make my own choices. I accept the rewards and I accept the consequences.4
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kindalikevelma wrote: »Well I ate sorbet in the bathtub tonight so there’s your answer.
What flavor? Y'know...for...science.0 -
Prediction modeling also argues free will doesn't really exist. Sample sizes don't have to be that big, a political survey of a few hundred people can predict pretty closely how we will vote. Medical surveys can predict our lifespan within a margin of error, and our own texting apps have gotten pretty good at predicting our word choices. Across the board, the choices we freely make can be predicted with great accuracy.
To me, someone or something being "predictable", may still have free will. I'm free to order whatever I like when I walk in the deli every morning, but the cook at the deli almost always correctly predicts what I'm going to order.
But I'm still free to ask for a bowl of tofu instead of my usual bacon and eggs. It's just highly unlikely that I would ever make such a choice.
Maybe, but given how you felt on that day, you would have chosen the same thing if you relived the day over 1000 times, as such it was the only thing you could have chosen at the time, based on what you craved, like, etc. and on that day you had to choose that, whether it felt like you had another choice or not.... that is the "illusion of free will"
Agreed. Take away the prediction modeling and just look at aggregate research. We would have never predicted that the most common online passwords would be "password" or "12345". We don't share passwords with others, so we all think we freely choose them. Obviously we tend to pick the easiest thing, but why don't we choose "54321"? We all had the choice...the illusion of choice.0 -
FarmerCarla wrote: »...our poor choices have already been forgiven and paid for.
What about all the people living before they were supposedly paid for? They made choices without the construct of redemption, so even more free of influences, so more free?
But suffice to say, true free will would still be about the choice made and independant of the outcome.
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Prediction modeling also argues free will doesn't really exist. Sample sizes don't have to be that big, a political survey of a few hundred people can predict pretty closely how we will vote. Medical surveys can predict our lifespan within a margin of error, and our own texting apps have gotten pretty good at predicting our word choices. Across the board, the choices we freely make can be predicted with great accuracy.
Things that make it more predicatable for how and wy people might choose something does not dismiss that they still have the choice. The ONLY choices you cannot make, so far, are brith and death. Everything else, no matter how unlikely you are to deviate from predicted outcomes, still includes the choice to do something else.2 -
Prediction modeling also argues free will doesn't really exist. Sample sizes don't have to be that big, a political survey of a few hundred people can predict pretty closely how we will vote. Medical surveys can predict our lifespan within a margin of error, and our own texting apps have gotten pretty good at predicting our word choices. Across the board, the choices we freely make can be predicted with great accuracy.
To me, someone or something being "predictable", may still have free will. I'm free to order whatever I like when I walk in the deli every morning, but the cook at the deli almost always correctly predicts what I'm going to order.
But I'm still free to ask for a bowl of tofu instead of my usual bacon and eggs. It's just highly unlikely that I would ever make such a choice.
Maybe, but given how you felt on that day, you would have chosen the same thing if you relived the day over 1000 times, as such it was the only thing you could have chosen at the time, based on what you craved, like, etc. and on that day you had to choose that, whether it felt like you had another choice or not.... that is the "illusion of free will"
Agreed. Take away the prediction modeling and just look at aggregate research. We would have never predicted that the most common online passwords would be "password" or "12345". We don't share passwords with others, so we all think we freely choose them. Obviously we tend to pick the easiest thing, but why don't we choose "54321"? We all had the choice...the illusion of choice.
Help me out here please. If I have the option to choose "54321" or "password" or "Hyxh&*^" but I (and many others) choose to use "password", how is that evidence that free will is an illusion? I'm not following your thought process.
Do bees have free will? Most would argue they don't. Their "job" in bee society can be determined by their species and genome. Although bees are considered to live highly complex social lives, they follow the orders of the queen. No bee wakes up and says, "Today I want to be a worker bee!" But we only know this based on their predictive behavior. We can't talk to bees, so we evaluate their predictable behavior and from that, assume a bee doesn't wake up and "freely choose" to do what they do. We assume bee brains aren't even consciously aware, even though we can't clearly identify the "consciousness" on any animal. Humans are way more complex, so there are way more variables. Considering that we can predict incredibly complex behaviors of humans, can we argue that our "will" is any more free than a bee's?0 -
I used to have this discussion with a good friend in college and we would go round and round about it. And this is only my opinion, but I think it depends on if you are religious or not. If you are religious then no as God has predetermined everything.
Nietzsche thought the same thing, only without gods. Everything in science is cause and effect, all of today's effects were determined by yesterday's causes. This longer if thinking is called Determinism, and came about before people knew anything about quantum mechanics.1 -
And thank you all for being good about this discussion, which obviously dips around beliefs, religion, and life. Y'all done well to keep it going.
Thanks!5 -
FeelinFooFoo wrote: »Could it be argued that mere survival drives many of our desicion making in one form or another therefore free will is a nice afterthought?
I don't think so because we have higher thought processes that allow us to create values, morals, etc. and those conflict with pure primal directive. Well, except where people see fit to lower themselves back down to "just being animals". But because we can think and have a full realization of our own existence, we always have to make choices, based on whatever we want, or even nothing more than primal urges. There is always a choice though.
The crux of the arguement is always just how free we actually are though, based on all those factor that influence decisions. And we can only makes those choices based on our temporal, physical location based life. But does that negate use being able to make a choice?
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You will hear many say "god has a plan for you". If that's the case........................then there's no free will as it's been predetermined. You're just living it out. I'm an atheist anyway.If you are religious then no as God has predetermined everything.
Is that true?
My catholocism is a little rusty, but IIRC, God knows all (and thus knows the decisions we will make, how our futures will go, etc etc), but not that he made those decisions for us as part of his grand plan.
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