Low carb Vs keto
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janejellyroll wrote: »kirstygeorge29 wrote: »Larkspur94 wrote: »What do you mean about "for your health"? Unless you have been recommended a diet like that for a specific reason by a doctor, there is nothing healthy about eating less carbs. Carbs have gotten a reputation as unhealthy because companies make billions of dollars a year selling low carb solutions to things, so they've needed to make carbs out to be the bad guy. But there's no evidence at all backing that up.
@MikePTY
There's actually scientific study that proves carbs are bad for you. Unlike the 'fat is bad for you' hypothesis which has yet to proven, despite the billions of dollars spent on many many studies.
Studies on the carbs have to be self funded as the government won't fund them (Make too much money on the carb food industry and medicine to help with illness caused by carbs, to let it be known). Look them up. The documentary 'The Magic Pill' has a section that briefs it down for you. You can watch on Netflix. Low carb/keto prevents heart disease, diabetes, obesity, alzheimer's, improves autism, cures asthma and early cancer, increases life on late cancer, etc...
Hear hear.
Also... keto levels of carbs (20g) there are no glucose spikes (and inevitable troughs) so energy is stable. Also reduces insulin production and reverses T2D effects (hardened arteries and neuropathy etc). Also fat has roughly 9kcal per unit of energy compared with glucose's 4kcal so utilising the bodies stored fat for fuel is easy once glycogen stpres have been depleted. The brain loves ketones and you find a great mental clarity and natural high. Cannot recommend it highly enough. I have worked with diabetic patients for a long time. Reducing glucose intake is key! The NHS is finally advising T2D patients to follow a low carb way of eating. The science is the reasoning... not woo.
And all the calories in calories out brigade who will woo my post... youre not considering the hormonal implications (insulin is a hormone). Theres way more to it than that.
No, there are no studies showing that "carbs" (a hugely variable category) are bad for you.
I eat way more than 20 g carbs and don't get glucose spikes and have stable energy.
Insulin is not bad.
Everyone is able to use stored body fat for fuel.
No human cultures are ketogenic (the Inuit would be except they seem to have genetic adaptations to make them not ketogenic at levels others would be, which contradicts the idea that there's some benefit to being continually in ketosis).
I think keto is likely fine (if you maximize vegetables! and hard to do below 20 g carbs, IMO, although easy enough at a level in which most people are in ketosis). I also think other things, like activity, are much more important than this silly argument about macronutrients. But if you slam how others eat, I will call you on it.
Dont think youve read the post..you just reacted, and claimed theres an 'argument and ive 'slammed' people. No slamming, just stating calories in cals out is simplistic and not helpful for many people especially some females.
And actually there are many studies... you just dont know it. The Masai and indigenous American tribes were all fat based... its how we are born.
Amd yes, excess insulin is very bad, im sure youve read the countless studies. This is universally accepted.
What studies, specifically, do we not know about?
You wouldn't know them. They go to school in Canada. But they're totally real.6 -
I guess I am too "addicted" to fruit and vegetables to want to give up fruit or limit vegetables (when I tried keto I was always struggling with going over my much higher than the normal keto limit of 60 g total or 35 g net carbs, and that was from vegetables, nuts, and a little greek yogurt or cottage cheese -- I do not believe that any of those are foods that I should have to worry about, and indeed I think my preference for eating lots of vegetables is healthy for me). That I missed fruit I also don't see as a bad thing, nor is the fact that I missed being able to rely on vegetable-based source of protein like beans and lentils, which IMO are very healthy. Not to mention that this idea that there's no money/power in animal ag, but that the vegans have all the power, is not a very reality-based one, IMO.
I think keto can be a great choice for some people, and I like a somewhat lower carb diet myself, but I don't understand why some people seem to think they can't just say "I like low carb for these reasons" or "I prefer keto" but must instead attack the dietary choices of people who eat higher carb diets or make inaccurate claims about eating carbs being unhealthy (despite the blue zones).
TLDR: It's really too bad that this thread is turning into "attack people who eat carbs" and "claim that eating carbs is somehow inherently unhealthy." IMO, OP was given lots of good, unbiased advise that respected her question and concerns before that occurred.9 -
I guess I am too "addicted" to fruit and vegetables to want to give up fruit or limit vegetables (when I tried keto I was always struggling with going over my much higher than the normal keto limit of 60 g total or 35 g net carbs, and that was from vegetables, nuts, and a little greek yogurt or cottage cheese -- I do not believe that any of those are foods that I should have to worry about, and indeed I think my preference for eating lots of vegetables is healthy for me). That I missed fruit I also don't see as a bad thing, nor is the fact that I missed being able to rely on vegetable-based source of protein like beans and lentils, which IMO are very healthy. Not to mention that this idea that there's no money/power in animal ag, but that the vegans have all the power, is not a very reality-based one, IMO.
I think keto can be a great choice for some people, and I like a somewhat lower carb diet myself, but I don't understand why some people seem to think they can't just say "I like low carb for these reasons" or "I prefer keto" but must instead attack the dietary choices of people who eat higher carb diets or make inaccurate claims about eating carbs being unhealthy (despite the blue zones).
TLDR: It's really too bad that this thread is turning into "attack people who eat carbs" and "claim that eating carbs is somehow inherently unhealthy." IMO, OP was given lots of good, unbiased advise that respected her question and concerns before that occurred.
This is what happens when you deal with zealots...3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »kirstygeorge29 wrote: »Larkspur94 wrote: »What do you mean about "for your health"? Unless you have been recommended a diet like that for a specific reason by a doctor, there is nothing healthy about eating less carbs. Carbs have gotten a reputation as unhealthy because companies make billions of dollars a year selling low carb solutions to things, so they've needed to make carbs out to be the bad guy. But there's no evidence at all backing that up.
@MikePTY
There's actually scientific study that proves carbs are bad for you. Unlike the 'fat is bad for you' hypothesis which has yet to proven, despite the billions of dollars spent on many many studies.
Studies on the carbs have to be self funded as the government won't fund them (Make too much money on the carb food industry and medicine to help with illness caused by carbs, to let it be known). Look them up. The documentary 'The Magic Pill' has a section that briefs it down for you. You can watch on Netflix. Low carb/keto prevents heart disease, diabetes, obesity, alzheimer's, improves autism, cures asthma and early cancer, increases life on late cancer, etc...
Hear hear.
Also... keto levels of carbs (20g) there are no glucose spikes (and inevitable troughs) so energy is stable. Also reduces insulin production and reverses T2D effects (hardened arteries and neuropathy etc). Also fat has roughly 9kcal per unit of energy compared with glucose's 4kcal so utilising the bodies stored fat for fuel is easy once glycogen stpres have been depleted. The brain loves ketones and you find a great mental clarity and natural high. Cannot recommend it highly enough. I have worked with diabetic patients for a long time. Reducing glucose intake is key! The NHS is finally advising T2D patients to follow a low carb way of eating. The science is the reasoning... not woo.
And all the calories in calories out brigade who will woo my post... youre not considering the hormonal implications (insulin is a hormone). Theres way more to it than that.
No, there are no studies showing that "carbs" (a hugely variable category) are bad for you.
I eat way more than 20 g carbs and don't get glucose spikes and have stable energy.
Insulin is not bad.
Everyone is able to use stored body fat for fuel.
No human cultures are ketogenic (the Inuit would be except they seem to have genetic adaptations to make them not ketogenic at levels others would be, which contradicts the idea that there's some benefit to being continually in ketosis).
I think keto is likely fine (if you maximize vegetables! and hard to do below 20 g carbs, IMO, although easy enough at a level in which most people are in ketosis). I also think other things, like activity, are much more important than this silly argument about macronutrients. But if you slam how others eat, I will call you on it.
Dont think youve read the post..you just reacted, and claimed theres an 'argument and ive 'slammed' people. No slamming, just stating calories in cals out is simplistic and not helpful for many people especially some females.
And actually there are many studies... you just dont know it. The Masai and indigenous American tribes were all fat based... its how we are born.
Amd yes, excess insulin is very bad, im sure youve read the countless studies. This is universally accepted.
What studies, specifically, do we not know about?
You wouldn't know them. They go to school in Canada. But they're totally real.
Are you telling us that only students in Canada are able to see this information?
1 -
ChubbyRose84 wrote: »I'm debating whether or not to do low carb, Vs keto for my health.
I'm not sure I can do keto, but I do like some of the recipes
Just not enough veggies for me.
I'm not keto - I'd miss my fruits and veggies - but do like some of the recipes too. I'm in a keto group on FB just for the recipes
Made PB chocolate mini cups last night. Subbed 2 t of sugar for the Splenda cuz I detest artificial sweeteners. (Still only 3 g sugar per serving.) Used 30 grams of Ghirardelli bittersweet chips instead of the Lindt. Added more PB instead of the butter. I was able to limit myself to two last night, hooray!
http://screwedonstraight.net/keto-diet-peanut-butter-cup-fat-bombs/
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janejellyroll wrote: »kirstygeorge29 wrote: »Larkspur94 wrote: »What do you mean about "for your health"? Unless you have been recommended a diet like that for a specific reason by a doctor, there is nothing healthy about eating less carbs. Carbs have gotten a reputation as unhealthy because companies make billions of dollars a year selling low carb solutions to things, so they've needed to make carbs out to be the bad guy. But there's no evidence at all backing that up.
@MikePTY
There's actually scientific study that proves carbs are bad for you. Unlike the 'fat is bad for you' hypothesis which has yet to proven, despite the billions of dollars spent on many many studies.
Studies on the carbs have to be self funded as the government won't fund them (Make too much money on the carb food industry and medicine to help with illness caused by carbs, to let it be known). Look them up. The documentary 'The Magic Pill' has a section that briefs it down for you. You can watch on Netflix. Low carb/keto prevents heart disease, diabetes, obesity, alzheimer's, improves autism, cures asthma and early cancer, increases life on late cancer, etc...
Hear hear.
Also... keto levels of carbs (20g) there are no glucose spikes (and inevitable troughs) so energy is stable. Also reduces insulin production and reverses T2D effects (hardened arteries and neuropathy etc). Also fat has roughly 9kcal per unit of energy compared with glucose's 4kcal so utilising the bodies stored fat for fuel is easy once glycogen stpres have been depleted. The brain loves ketones and you find a great mental clarity and natural high. Cannot recommend it highly enough. I have worked with diabetic patients for a long time. Reducing glucose intake is key! The NHS is finally advising T2D patients to follow a low carb way of eating. The science is the reasoning... not woo.
And all the calories in calories out brigade who will woo my post... youre not considering the hormonal implications (insulin is a hormone). Theres way more to it than that.
No, there are no studies showing that "carbs" (a hugely variable category) are bad for you.
I eat way more than 20 g carbs and don't get glucose spikes and have stable energy.
Insulin is not bad.
Everyone is able to use stored body fat for fuel.
No human cultures are ketogenic (the Inuit would be except they seem to have genetic adaptations to make them not ketogenic at levels others would be, which contradicts the idea that there's some benefit to being continually in ketosis).
I think keto is likely fine (if you maximize vegetables! and hard to do below 20 g carbs, IMO, although easy enough at a level in which most people are in ketosis). I also think other things, like activity, are much more important than this silly argument about macronutrients. But if you slam how others eat, I will call you on it.
Dont think youve read the post..you just reacted, and claimed theres an 'argument and ive 'slammed' people. No slamming, just stating calories in cals out is simplistic and not helpful for many people especially some females.
And actually there are many studies... you just dont know it. The Masai and indigenous American tribes were all fat based... its how we are born.
Amd yes, excess insulin is very bad, im sure youve read the countless studies. This is universally accepted.
What studies, specifically, do we not know about?
You wouldn't know them. They go to school in Canada. But they're totally real.
Are you telling us that only students in Canada are able to see this information?
Were you unaware that there's a Canadian Student internet edition? It's a little cheaper than the regular internet version, because educational institutions have gathered together to reduce the price, and thanks to bargaining power, they get all the good scientific information.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »ChubbyRose84 wrote: »I'm debating whether or not to do low carb, Vs keto for my health.
I'm not sure I can do keto, but I do like some of the recipes
Just not enough veggies for me.
I can and have done lower carb...but I could never do keto. While I do eat meat, my diet is heavily plant based and things like beans, lentils, oats, potatoes and other tubers, veggies, and fruit are staples in my diet.
That's how I feel. I tried keto for a while and missed fruit and felt like I was too dependent on meat for protein (and also I was always hitting about 35 net carbs with my carbs mostly from veg plus some nuts). I like eating lower carb, however.
Out of curiosity some time ago I calculated what I would need on keto with my weight loss calorie target... @ 70F/20P/10C my fat intake would be around 195 grams @ 2500 calories per day. Even at a lower target of 2,000 calories per day, it would have been around 155.5 grams...I personally can't imagine eating that much dietary fat.
I'm also just not convinced that there aren't health repercussions down the road with keto...I'm not aware of any long term studies on keto and human health...I am aware of many long term studies on eating a diet rich in plants.
One group on ketogenic diets longer term has been studied -- that's children who are on it for epilepsy control. My understanding is that the results aren't that encouraging for health outcomes (but the children are better off having their epilepsy controlled). Of course, it's a legitimate question if the results from children can be extrapolated to adults. Some of the issues that the children face may be unique to doing this type of eating while growing (loss of bone density). Others, like increased blood lipids and high cholesterol may be more concerning for everyone. Other issues seem to be well-controlled with supplementation of the nutrients that may be harder to get on a ketogenic diet.
Epileptic children were calorie and protein restricted too. They did not eat a typical ketogenic diet.
The longest studies that I have seen on keto are 1-2 years. Case studies can be much longer.
Ketogenic diets do not typically worsen lipid profiles. HDL usually rises, triglycerides fall, LDL particle size becomes more favourable although in some people LDL may go up or down, and crp tends to fall.0 -
I am missing where the thread turned into "attack people who eat carbs" and "claim that eating carbs is somehow inherently unhealthy." I remember one post where they said something like carbs are unhealthy. One. But that could have been clarified with just a few more words or sentences, like refined and highly processed carbs are unhealthy, which is true for the most part.
On the other hand, the low carb proponents have been called anti-carbers and zealots so far. Shrug0 -
Dont think youve read the post..you just reacted, and claimed theres an 'argument and ive 'slammed' people. No slamming, just stating calories in cals out is simplistic and not helpful for many people especially some females.
And actually there are many studies... you just dont know it. The Masai and indigenous American tribes were all fat based... its how we are born.
Amd yes, excess insulin is very bad, im sure youve read the countless studies. This is universally accepted.
I find it interesting/amusing that the anti-carb forces treat carbs as if they are this new found thing, as if we started eating them in the 20th century or something when "big-carb" came along. Humans have been eating carbs throughout human history. even taking away the whole "gatherer" part of hunter-gatherer, historians believe that humans have been making bread for at least 30,000 years. The "paleo" men actually ate bread as part of their diet. It's how we were actually born.
We are born eating grains? No, we are born in a ketogenic state and stay that way for a few days.
I'm not arguing that humans ate grains throughout history. We eat a lot of things. Doesn't mean it is ideal.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »kirstygeorge29 wrote: »Larkspur94 wrote: »What do you mean about "for your health"? Unless you have been recommended a diet like that for a specific reason by a doctor, there is nothing healthy about eating less carbs. Carbs have gotten a reputation as unhealthy because companies make billions of dollars a year selling low carb solutions to things, so they've needed to make carbs out to be the bad guy. But there's no evidence at all backing that up.
@MikePTY
There's actually scientific study that proves carbs are bad for you. Unlike the 'fat is bad for you' hypothesis which has yet to proven, despite the billions of dollars spent on many many studies.
Studies on the carbs have to be self funded as the government won't fund them (Make too much money on the carb food industry and medicine to help with illness caused by carbs, to let it be known). Look them up. The documentary 'The Magic Pill' has a section that briefs it down for you. You can watch on Netflix. Low carb/keto prevents heart disease, diabetes, obesity, alzheimer's, improves autism, cures asthma and early cancer, increases life on late cancer, etc...
Hear hear.
Also... keto levels of carbs (20g) there are no glucose spikes (and inevitable troughs) so energy is stable. Also reduces insulin production and reverses T2D effects (hardened arteries and neuropathy etc). Also fat has roughly 9kcal per unit of energy compared with glucose's 4kcal so utilising the bodies stored fat for fuel is easy once glycogen stpres have been depleted. The brain loves ketones and you find a great mental clarity and natural high. Cannot recommend it highly enough. I have worked with diabetic patients for a long time. Reducing glucose intake is key! The NHS is finally advising T2D patients to follow a low carb way of eating. The science is the reasoning... not woo.
And all the calories in calories out brigade who will woo my post... youre not considering the hormonal implications (insulin is a hormone). Theres way more to it than that.
No, there are no studies showing that "carbs" (a hugely variable category) are bad for you.
I eat way more than 20 g carbs and don't get glucose spikes and have stable energy.
Insulin is not bad.
Everyone is able to use stored body fat for fuel.
No human cultures are ketogenic (the Inuit would be except they seem to have genetic adaptations to make them not ketogenic at levels others would be, which contradicts the idea that there's some benefit to being continually in ketosis).
I think keto is likely fine (if you maximize vegetables! and hard to do below 20 g carbs, IMO, although easy enough at a level in which most people are in ketosis). I also think other things, like activity, are much more important than this silly argument about macronutrients. But if you slam how others eat, I will call you on it.
Dont think youve read the post..you just reacted, and claimed theres an 'argument and ive 'slammed' people. No slamming, just stating calories in cals out is simplistic and not helpful for many people especially some females.
And actually there are many studies... you just dont know it. The Masai and indigenous American tribes were all fat based... its how we are born.
Amd yes, excess insulin is very bad, im sure youve read the countless studies. This is universally accepted.
What studies, specifically, do we not know about?
You wouldn't know them. They go to school in Canada. But they're totally real.
Are you telling us that only students in Canada are able to see this information?
It was a joke
. It's like the kid in school telling his friends that he "definitely" has a girlfriend, but they just don't know or see her because she lives in Canada. 2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »ChubbyRose84 wrote: »I'm debating whether or not to do low carb, Vs keto for my health.
I'm not sure I can do keto, but I do like some of the recipes
Just not enough veggies for me.
I can and have done lower carb...but I could never do keto. While I do eat meat, my diet is heavily plant based and things like beans, lentils, oats, potatoes and other tubers, veggies, and fruit are staples in my diet.
That's how I feel. I tried keto for a while and missed fruit and felt like I was too dependent on meat for protein (and also I was always hitting about 35 net carbs with my carbs mostly from veg plus some nuts). I like eating lower carb, however.
Out of curiosity some time ago I calculated what I would need on keto with my weight loss calorie target... @ 70F/20P/10C my fat intake would be around 195 grams @ 2500 calories per day. Even at a lower target of 2,000 calories per day, it would have been around 155.5 grams...I personally can't imagine eating that much dietary fat.
I'm also just not convinced that there aren't health repercussions down the road with keto...I'm not aware of any long term studies on keto and human health...I am aware of many long term studies on eating a diet rich in plants.
One group on ketogenic diets longer term has been studied -- that's children who are on it for epilepsy control. My understanding is that the results aren't that encouraging for health outcomes (but the children are better off having their epilepsy controlled). Of course, it's a legitimate question if the results from children can be extrapolated to adults. Some of the issues that the children face may be unique to doing this type of eating while growing (loss of bone density). Others, like increased blood lipids and high cholesterol may be more concerning for everyone. Other issues seem to be well-controlled with supplementation of the nutrients that may be harder to get on a ketogenic diet.
Epileptic children were calorie and protein restricted too. They did not eat a typical ketogenic diet.
The longest studies that I have seen on keto are 1-2 years. Case studies can be much longer.
Ketogenic diets do not typically worsen lipid profiles. HDL usually rises, triglycerides fall, LDL particle size becomes more favourable although in some people LDL may go up or down, and crp tends to fall.
It's a medically recommended and monitored ketogenic diet. It may not be the *only* way to do keto, but I think it's ridiculous to say it isn't "typical."
Perhaps what you mean to say is that there are significant differences between that style of keto and what your non-medically restricted dieter is practicing. In that case, what long term studies of people on keto would you like us to look at instead?5 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »kirstygeorge29 wrote: »Larkspur94 wrote: »What do you mean about "for your health"? Unless you have been recommended a diet like that for a specific reason by a doctor, there is nothing healthy about eating less carbs. Carbs have gotten a reputation as unhealthy because companies make billions of dollars a year selling low carb solutions to things, so they've needed to make carbs out to be the bad guy. But there's no evidence at all backing that up.
@MikePTY
There's actually scientific study that proves carbs are bad for you. Unlike the 'fat is bad for you' hypothesis which has yet to proven, despite the billions of dollars spent on many many studies.
Studies on the carbs have to be self funded as the government won't fund them (Make too much money on the carb food industry and medicine to help with illness caused by carbs, to let it be known). Look them up. The documentary 'The Magic Pill' has a section that briefs it down for you. You can watch on Netflix. Low carb/keto prevents heart disease, diabetes, obesity, alzheimer's, improves autism, cures asthma and early cancer, increases life on late cancer, etc...
Hear hear.
Also... keto levels of carbs (20g) there are no glucose spikes (and inevitable troughs) so energy is stable. Also reduces insulin production and reverses T2D effects (hardened arteries and neuropathy etc). Also fat has roughly 9kcal per unit of energy compared with glucose's 4kcal so utilising the bodies stored fat for fuel is easy once glycogen stpres have been depleted. The brain loves ketones and you find a great mental clarity and natural high. Cannot recommend it highly enough. I have worked with diabetic patients for a long time. Reducing glucose intake is key! The NHS is finally advising T2D patients to follow a low carb way of eating. The science is the reasoning... not woo.
And all the calories in calories out brigade who will woo my post... youre not considering the hormonal implications (insulin is a hormone). Theres way more to it than that.
No, there are no studies showing that "carbs" (a hugely variable category) are bad for you.
I eat way more than 20 g carbs and don't get glucose spikes and have stable energy.
Insulin is not bad.
Everyone is able to use stored body fat for fuel.
No human cultures are ketogenic (the Inuit would be except they seem to have genetic adaptations to make them not ketogenic at levels others would be, which contradicts the idea that there's some benefit to being continually in ketosis).
I think keto is likely fine (if you maximize vegetables! and hard to do below 20 g carbs, IMO, although easy enough at a level in which most people are in ketosis). I also think other things, like activity, are much more important than this silly argument about macronutrients. But if you slam how others eat, I will call you on it.
Dont think youve read the post..you just reacted, and claimed theres an 'argument and ive 'slammed' people. No slamming, just stating calories in cals out is simplistic and not helpful for many people especially some females.
And actually there are many studies... you just dont know it. The Masai and indigenous American tribes were all fat based... its how we are born.
Amd yes, excess insulin is very bad, im sure youve read the countless studies. This is universally accepted.
What studies, specifically, do we not know about?
You wouldn't know them. They go to school in Canada. But they're totally real.
Are you telling us that only students in Canada are able to see this information?
Were you unaware that there's a Canadian Student internet edition? It's a little cheaper than the regular internet version, because educational institutions have gathered together to reduce the price, and thanks to bargaining power, they get all the good scientific information.
dang, where's that sarcasm emoticon when we need it!1 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »kirstygeorge29 wrote: »Larkspur94 wrote: »What do you mean about "for your health"? Unless you have been recommended a diet like that for a specific reason by a doctor, there is nothing healthy about eating less carbs. Carbs have gotten a reputation as unhealthy because companies make billions of dollars a year selling low carb solutions to things, so they've needed to make carbs out to be the bad guy. But there's no evidence at all backing that up.
@MikePTY
There's actually scientific study that proves carbs are bad for you. Unlike the 'fat is bad for you' hypothesis which has yet to proven, despite the billions of dollars spent on many many studies.
Studies on the carbs have to be self funded as the government won't fund them (Make too much money on the carb food industry and medicine to help with illness caused by carbs, to let it be known). Look them up. The documentary 'The Magic Pill' has a section that briefs it down for you. You can watch on Netflix. Low carb/keto prevents heart disease, diabetes, obesity, alzheimer's, improves autism, cures asthma and early cancer, increases life on late cancer, etc...
Hear hear.
Also... keto levels of carbs (20g) there are no glucose spikes (and inevitable troughs) so energy is stable. Also reduces insulin production and reverses T2D effects (hardened arteries and neuropathy etc). Also fat has roughly 9kcal per unit of energy compared with glucose's 4kcal so utilising the bodies stored fat for fuel is easy once glycogen stpres have been depleted. The brain loves ketones and you find a great mental clarity and natural high. Cannot recommend it highly enough. I have worked with diabetic patients for a long time. Reducing glucose intake is key! The NHS is finally advising T2D patients to follow a low carb way of eating. The science is the reasoning... not woo.
And all the calories in calories out brigade who will woo my post... youre not considering the hormonal implications (insulin is a hormone). Theres way more to it than that.
No, there are no studies showing that "carbs" (a hugely variable category) are bad for you.
I eat way more than 20 g carbs and don't get glucose spikes and have stable energy.
Insulin is not bad.
Everyone is able to use stored body fat for fuel.
No human cultures are ketogenic (the Inuit would be except they seem to have genetic adaptations to make them not ketogenic at levels others would be, which contradicts the idea that there's some benefit to being continually in ketosis).
I think keto is likely fine (if you maximize vegetables! and hard to do below 20 g carbs, IMO, although easy enough at a level in which most people are in ketosis). I also think other things, like activity, are much more important than this silly argument about macronutrients. But if you slam how others eat, I will call you on it.
Dont think youve read the post..you just reacted, and claimed theres an 'argument and ive 'slammed' people. No slamming, just stating calories in cals out is simplistic and not helpful for many people especially some females.
And actually there are many studies... you just dont know it. The Masai and indigenous American tribes were all fat based... its how we are born.
Amd yes, excess insulin is very bad, im sure youve read the countless studies. This is universally accepted.
What studies, specifically, do we not know about?
You wouldn't know them. They go to school in Canada. But they're totally real.
Are you telling us that only students in Canada are able to see this information?
Were you unaware that there's a Canadian Student internet edition? It's a little cheaper than the regular internet version, because educational institutions have gathered together to reduce the price, and thanks to bargaining power, they get all the good scientific information.
dang, where's that sarcasm emoticon when we need it!
0 -
ChubbyRose84 wrote: »I'm debating whether or not to do low carb, Vs keto for my health.
Maintain a healthy weight for your health. As far as what will get you there? That is up to you...
2 -
I am missing where the thread turned into "attack people who eat carbs" and "claim that eating carbs is somehow inherently unhealthy." I remember one post where they said something like carbs are unhealthy. One.
(1)Larkspur94 wrote: »There's actually scientific study that proves carbs are bad for you. Unlike the 'fat is bad for you' hypothesis which has yet to proven, despite the billions of dollars spent on many many studies.
Studies on the carbs have to be self funded as the government won't fund them (Make too much money on the carb food industry and medicine to help with illness caused by carbs, to let it be known). Look them up. The documentary 'The Magic Pill' has a section that briefs it down for you. You can watch on Netflix. Low carb/keto prevents heart disease, diabetes, obesity, alzheimer's, improves autism, cures asthma and early cancer, increases life on late cancer, etc...
Note, not limited to certain carbs (and most so-called "processed carbs" are really carbs + fat, so I don't think the poster was talking about junk food).
That was followed by (2), which quoted the post above and added:Hear hear. Also... keto levels of carbs (20g) there are no glucose spikes (and inevitable troughs) so energy is stable. Also reduces insulin production and reverses T2D effects (hardened arteries and neuropathy etc). Also fat has roughly 9kcal per unit of energy compared with glucose's 4kcal so utilising the bodies stored fat for fuel is easy once glycogen stpres have been depleted. The brain loves ketones and you find a great mental clarity and natural high. Cannot recommend it highly enough. I have worked with diabetic patients for a long time. Reducing glucose intake is key! The NHS is finally advising T2D patients to follow a low carb way of eating. The science is the reasoning... not woo.
Note the added claims that those not eating keto (or even keto levels of carbs above 20 g) are suffering from glucose spikes and lack stable energy and have all sorts of negative health effects.
And then (3):And to answer a previous post... yes.. most people are too addicted to their carbs/sugar to give them up. It doesn't help that the powers that be are still trying to tell us that saturated fats are the devil. Watch some documentaries on it. There are a few good ones out there that explain it all and why the standard american diet is the way it is.... hint :$$$$$$$
So again the claim that people not doing keto (and saying they would miss fruit, etc.) are "addicted," which is rather insulting. And again the claim that there's some BigCarb causing this.On the other hand, the low carb proponents have been called anti-carbers and zealots so far. Shrug
In response to the posts above, so I think it's fair.
That's why these threads become contentious so often, which is a shame, because I think there are a huge variety of healthy ways to eat and people should be able to find what works for them without being told that they must be addicted or without eating becoming some kind of team -- the world is divisive enough without that!
I'm also not sure why it should matter if an infant is born in ketosis, but it's not really relevant to OP's question, IMO, so I will drop it.
As I said above, absent specific medical conditions not mentioned (basically epilepsy, although possibly T2D if it remains uncontrolled despite trying other ways of eating that typically seem to work fine) I think there's no particular health benefit to ketosis (vs. low carb or other ways of eating -- most diets can be healthful or not). Therefore if OP is drawn to trying low carb and feels like keto levels would be too low for her, given her food preferences, she should try low carb. And if she doesn't like it there are plenty of other options.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »ChubbyRose84 wrote: »I'm debating whether or not to do low carb, Vs keto for my health.
I'm not sure I can do keto, but I do like some of the recipes
Just not enough veggies for me.
I can and have done lower carb...but I could never do keto. While I do eat meat, my diet is heavily plant based and things like beans, lentils, oats, potatoes and other tubers, veggies, and fruit are staples in my diet.
That's how I feel. I tried keto for a while and missed fruit and felt like I was too dependent on meat for protein (and also I was always hitting about 35 net carbs with my carbs mostly from veg plus some nuts). I like eating lower carb, however.
Out of curiosity some time ago I calculated what I would need on keto with my weight loss calorie target... @ 70F/20P/10C my fat intake would be around 195 grams @ 2500 calories per day. Even at a lower target of 2,000 calories per day, it would have been around 155.5 grams...I personally can't imagine eating that much dietary fat.
I'm also just not convinced that there aren't health repercussions down the road with keto...I'm not aware of any long term studies on keto and human health...I am aware of many long term studies on eating a diet rich in plants.
One group on ketogenic diets longer term has been studied -- that's children who are on it for epilepsy control. My understanding is that the results aren't that encouraging for health outcomes (but the children are better off having their epilepsy controlled). Of course, it's a legitimate question if the results from children can be extrapolated to adults. Some of the issues that the children face may be unique to doing this type of eating while growing (loss of bone density). Others, like increased blood lipids and high cholesterol may be more concerning for everyone. Other issues seem to be well-controlled with supplementation of the nutrients that may be harder to get on a ketogenic diet.
Epileptic children were calorie and protein restricted too. They did not eat a typical ketogenic diet.
The longest studies that I have seen on keto are 1-2 years. Case studies can be much longer.
Ketogenic diets do not typically worsen lipid profiles. HDL usually rises, triglycerides fall, LDL particle size becomes more favourable although in some people LDL may go up or down, and crp tends to fall.
It's a medically recommended and monitored ketogenic diet. It may not be the *only* way to do keto, but I think it's ridiculous to say it isn't "typical."
Perhaps what you mean to say is that there are significant differences between that style of keto and what your non-medically restricted dieter is practicing. In that case, what long term studies of people on keto would you like us to look at instead?
No,I do not think it is ridiculous to say that a medically prescribed ketogenic diet for epileptics is not your typical ketogenic diet.
Epileptic children are often prescribed a fat to protein and carbs ratio of 4:1 or 3:1 in terms of grams. For every 3 or 4 g fat, these kids get 1 g of protein and carbs combined. Calories are often 80-95% fats, and those fats are often coming from vegetable oils rather than meats so they can keep protein low.
A nutritional ketogenic diet is often almost a 1:1 ratio of fats to non fats in grams. These diets have more whole foods, more carbs and protein, and are not nearly as strict. Both are ketogenic but they differ a great deal. Just like those who use moderate macros or high carb can vary widely in their diets and their quality. KWIM?
As I mentioned, there are very few ketogenic long term studies, and the ones I have seen are typically done within 2 years. Case studies may be longer.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »ChubbyRose84 wrote: »I'm debating whether or not to do low carb, Vs keto for my health.
I'm not sure I can do keto, but I do like some of the recipes
Just not enough veggies for me.
I can and have done lower carb...but I could never do keto. While I do eat meat, my diet is heavily plant based and things like beans, lentils, oats, potatoes and other tubers, veggies, and fruit are staples in my diet.
That's how I feel. I tried keto for a while and missed fruit and felt like I was too dependent on meat for protein (and also I was always hitting about 35 net carbs with my carbs mostly from veg plus some nuts). I like eating lower carb, however.
Out of curiosity some time ago I calculated what I would need on keto with my weight loss calorie target... @ 70F/20P/10C my fat intake would be around 195 grams @ 2500 calories per day. Even at a lower target of 2,000 calories per day, it would have been around 155.5 grams...I personally can't imagine eating that much dietary fat.
I'm also just not convinced that there aren't health repercussions down the road with keto...I'm not aware of any long term studies on keto and human health...I am aware of many long term studies on eating a diet rich in plants.
One group on ketogenic diets longer term has been studied -- that's children who are on it for epilepsy control. My understanding is that the results aren't that encouraging for health outcomes (but the children are better off having their epilepsy controlled). Of course, it's a legitimate question if the results from children can be extrapolated to adults. Some of the issues that the children face may be unique to doing this type of eating while growing (loss of bone density). Others, like increased blood lipids and high cholesterol may be more concerning for everyone. Other issues seem to be well-controlled with supplementation of the nutrients that may be harder to get on a ketogenic diet.
Epileptic children were calorie and protein restricted too. They did not eat a typical ketogenic diet.
The longest studies that I have seen on keto are 1-2 years. Case studies can be much longer.
Ketogenic diets do not typically worsen lipid profiles. HDL usually rises, triglycerides fall, LDL particle size becomes more favourable although in some people LDL may go up or down, and crp tends to fall.
It's a medically recommended and monitored ketogenic diet. It may not be the *only* way to do keto, but I think it's ridiculous to say it isn't "typical."
Perhaps what you mean to say is that there are significant differences between that style of keto and what your non-medically restricted dieter is practicing. In that case, what long term studies of people on keto would you like us to look at instead?
No,I do not think it is ridiculous to say that a medically prescribed ketogenic diet for epileptics is not your typical ketogenic diet.
Epileptic children are often prescribed a fat to protein and carbs ratio of 4:1 or 3:1 in terms of grams. For every 3 or 4 g fat, these kids get 1 g of protein and carbs combined. Calories are often 80-95% fats, and those fats are often coming from vegetable oils rather than meats so they can keep protein low.
A nutritional ketogenic diet is often almost a 1:1 ratio of fats to non fats in grams. These diets have more whole foods, more carbs and protein, and are not nearly as strict. Both are ketogenic but they differ a great deal. Just like those who use moderate macros or high carb can vary widely in their diets and their quality. KWIM?
As I mentioned, there are very few ketogenic long term studies, and the ones I have seen are typically done within 2 years. Case studies may be longer.
I'm not saying it's the *only* typical ketogenic diet, but it is a typical type. And it's one that we actually have data on until we get to the point that there are long term studies on the only style of ketogenic eating that you're willing to recognize.
In the meantime, we do have longer term studies showing that people can maintain good health and even thrive on diet patterns that are not ketogenic, ways of eating that are practiced in the blue zones, for example.
OP's whole concern is about health and there are no long term ketogentic studies that you're willing to point to in order to support the claims that it is a good diet for long term health outcomes.5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »ChubbyRose84 wrote: »I'm debating whether or not to do low carb, Vs keto for my health.
I'm not sure I can do keto, but I do like some of the recipes
Just not enough veggies for me.
I can and have done lower carb...but I could never do keto. While I do eat meat, my diet is heavily plant based and things like beans, lentils, oats, potatoes and other tubers, veggies, and fruit are staples in my diet.
That's how I feel. I tried keto for a while and missed fruit and felt like I was too dependent on meat for protein (and also I was always hitting about 35 net carbs with my carbs mostly from veg plus some nuts). I like eating lower carb, however.
Out of curiosity some time ago I calculated what I would need on keto with my weight loss calorie target... @ 70F/20P/10C my fat intake would be around 195 grams @ 2500 calories per day. Even at a lower target of 2,000 calories per day, it would have been around 155.5 grams...I personally can't imagine eating that much dietary fat.
I'm also just not convinced that there aren't health repercussions down the road with keto...I'm not aware of any long term studies on keto and human health...I am aware of many long term studies on eating a diet rich in plants.
One group on ketogenic diets longer term has been studied -- that's children who are on it for epilepsy control. My understanding is that the results aren't that encouraging for health outcomes (but the children are better off having their epilepsy controlled). Of course, it's a legitimate question if the results from children can be extrapolated to adults. Some of the issues that the children face may be unique to doing this type of eating while growing (loss of bone density). Others, like increased blood lipids and high cholesterol may be more concerning for everyone. Other issues seem to be well-controlled with supplementation of the nutrients that may be harder to get on a ketogenic diet.
Epileptic children were calorie and protein restricted too. They did not eat a typical ketogenic diet.
The longest studies that I have seen on keto are 1-2 years. Case studies can be much longer.
Ketogenic diets do not typically worsen lipid profiles. HDL usually rises, triglycerides fall, LDL particle size becomes more favourable although in some people LDL may go up or down, and crp tends to fall.
It's a medically recommended and monitored ketogenic diet. It may not be the *only* way to do keto, but I think it's ridiculous to say it isn't "typical."
Perhaps what you mean to say is that there are significant differences between that style of keto and what your non-medically restricted dieter is practicing. In that case, what long term studies of people on keto would you like us to look at instead?
No,I do not think it is ridiculous to say that a medically prescribed ketogenic diet for epileptics is not your typical ketogenic diet.
Epileptic children are often prescribed a fat to protein and carbs ratio of 4:1 or 3:1 in terms of grams. For every 3 or 4 g fat, these kids get 1 g of protein and carbs combined. Calories are often 80-95% fats, and those fats are often coming from vegetable oils rather than meats so they can keep protein low.
A nutritional ketogenic diet is often almost a 1:1 ratio of fats to non fats in grams. These diets have more whole foods, more carbs and protein, and are not nearly as strict. Both are ketogenic but they differ a great deal. Just like those who use moderate macros or high carb can vary widely in their diets and their quality. KWIM?
As I mentioned, there are very few ketogenic long term studies, and the ones I have seen are typically done within 2 years. Case studies may be longer.
I'm not saying it's the *only* typical ketogenic diet, but it is a typical type. And it's one that we actually have data on until we get to the point that there are long term studies on the only style of ketogenic eating that you're willing to recognize.
In the meantime, we do have longer term studies showing that people can maintain good health and even thrive on diet patterns that are not ketogenic, ways of eating that are practiced in the blue zones, for example.
OP's whole concern is about health and there are no long term ketogentic studies that you're willing to point to in order to support the claims that it is a good diet for long term health outcomes.
I understand what you are saying, but we'll have to agree to disagree.
Virta Health's ongoing study is the most recent longer term one that I know of. Much of their research is on the Virta Health website. Links to their published work is in there.
https://www.virtahealth.com/research
For their T2D patients, low carb appears to be healthier than their previous diets (presumed higher in carbs). It is also shown to be sustainable and good for ongoing weight loss and maintenance, lipid panels and cvd markers, insulin levels and BG.
3 -
Theuraputic keto diets are different than modified keto diets. Modified diets have a greater focus on protein due to proteins benefits from a metabolic standpoint and muscle retention standpoint. Theuraputic keto diets are focused on consumption of mainly fat and limits protein due to the insulin response.3
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