US News & World Report Best Diets of 2019
try2again
Posts: 3,562 Member
I didn't see a post about this yet, so just thought I'd share it for new ones looking to compare diet plans. I used the CNN link because it was a more comprehensive discussion. Take it for what you will 
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/02/health/mediterranean-best-diet-2019/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/02/health/mediterranean-best-diet-2019/index.html
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Replies
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The research done for the rankings was not very comprehensive, IMO. I like the Mediterranean diet but the rankings seem to be based on opinions.
For the best diets for T2Ds, they don't even include LCHF, which has something like an 80+ % success rate in improving the disease and losing weight in the second year of the Virta trials - the best of all diets. The ADA finally included LCHF in their recommended diets because of that study.
Keto, Dukkan and Whole 30 are ranked as bottom diets, although keto is one of the top for fast weight loss (makes sense considering cutting carbs results in a few pounds of water loss). The rankers advise against those diets because they (apparently) eliminate entire food groups - not sure which food groups they are thinking of... They also say, in their rankings, that Keto is not recommended for those with kidney problems or liver problems even though it is used to treat NAFLDand there is no reason a moderate protein diet like Keto would be hard on kidneys.
Speaking of diets that actually do eliminate food groups, veganism is ranked as one of the best diets to try ...for weight loss.
Moderation or calorie counting is not mentioned anywhere either, and that seems to be the most popular way to lose weight: eat less, move more.
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Posting this from the other thread:Just thought I'd leave this here too, in case people are considering different diet options:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/02/health/mediterranean-best-diet-2019/index.html
(It's not just about the Mediterranean diet, but is a ranking of various diets for 2019.)
I am wondering what they based their rankings on? I like the Mediterranean diet but the rankings seem to be based on opinions.
To judge the diets, a panel of experts in heart disease and diabetes, nutrition, diet, food psychology and obesity reviewed research about the diets from medical journals, government reports and other resources.
Angela Haupt, assistant managing editor of health for US News and World Report, said the experts then ranked the diets in seven categories: "how easy it is to follow, its nutritional completeness, its ability to produce short-term and long-term weight loss, its safety and its potential for preventing and managing diabetes and heart disease."
"How easy it is to follow" is sort of subjective, but it sounds like the rest of the categories are likely just based on the data. And I wouldn't take it to mean that there aren't people that thrive on the lower-ranked diets.
I can see keto coming out high for quick weight loss because the data likely doesn't differentiate between water and fat loss.3 -
The research done for the rankings was not very comprehensive, IMO. I like the Mediterranean diet but the rankings seem to be based on opinions.
For the best diets for T2Ds, they don't even include LCHF, which has something like an 80+ % success rate in improving the disease and losing weight in the second year of the Virta trials - the best of all diets. The ADA finally included LCHF in their recommended diets because of that study.
Keto, Dukkan and Whole 30 are ranked as bottom diets, although keto is one of the top for fast weight loss (makes sense considering cutting carbs results in a few pounds of water loss). The rankers advise against those diets because they (apparently) eliminate entire food groups - not sure which food groups they are thinking of... They also say, in their rankings, that Keto is not recommended for those with kidney problems or liver problems even though it is used to treat NAFLDand there is no reason a moderate protein diet like Keto would be hard on kidneys.
Speaking of diets that actually do eliminate food groups, veganism is ranked as one of the best diets to try ...for weight loss.
Moderation or calorie counting is not mentioned anywhere either, and that seems to be the most popular way to lose weight: eat less, move more.
As they are defined by the US government, veganism doesn't eliminate any food groups.
https://www.choosemyplate.gov/MyPlate
Looks as if Canada has similar definitions: https://www.aboutkidshealth.ca/Article?contentid=1436&language=English
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In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect.
unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.0 -
In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv3 -
janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I agree with your definition of "eliminate," which is why I'd never say that people on "keto" are eliminating a food group.
You may not consider meat alternatives to be part of the "meat" food group, but that's a personal defining of the term that doesn't match how they're actually used by the governments of the US, Canada, Australia, and nutritional professionals. It's about as useful as me saying I don't consider meat to be part of a legitimate food group. I'm free to think so, but why is it particularly relevant?
Food groups exist to help people with meal planning and for the purposes of meal planning and meeting macronutrient needs, it makes more sense to consider tofu as part of the "meat" food group than than vegetable one, just like it makes more sense to consider a glass of soy milk to be "diary" instead of a vegetable.
5 -
The research done for the rankings was not very comprehensive, IMO. I like the Mediterranean diet but the rankings seem to be based on opinions.
For the best diets for T2Ds, they don't even include LCHF, which has something like an 80+ % success rate in improving the disease and losing weight in the second year of the Virta trials - the best of all diets. The ADA finally included LCHF in their recommended diets because of that study.
Keto, Dukkan and Whole 30 are ranked as bottom diets, although keto is one of the top for fast weight loss (makes sense considering cutting carbs results in a few pounds of water loss). The rankers advise against those diets because they (apparently) eliminate entire food groups - not sure which food groups they are thinking of... They also say, in their rankings, that Keto is not recommended for those with kidney problems or liver problems even though it is used to treat NAFLDand there is no reason a moderate protein diet like Keto would be hard on kidneys.
Speaking of diets that actually do eliminate food groups, veganism is ranked as one of the best diets to try ...for weight loss.
Moderation or calorie counting is not mentioned anywhere either, and that seems to be the most popular way to lose weight: eat less, move more.
Regarding the kidneys, the appropriate diets vary. The Alport Syndrome Foundation suggests low protein, plant based for the particular issues that arise in the kidneys. In this disease, the body is missing a connective tissue, so the higher protein puts stress on the glomeruli as they are filtering waste. Keto is not recommended for this kidney problem, and it's probably safer for a national publication to make a blanket statement to be wary of keto. Of course, anyone with kidney problems should be talking to their treatment team because there are so many rules at each stage of failure.2 -
Of course, this diet wasn't included in their snooty rankings, but it is stellar!:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10636388/free-customized-personal-weight-loss-eating-plan-not-spam-or-mlm/p117 -
I am furious the Apple Cider Vinegar detox diet didn't make the list.
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janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I agree with your definition of "eliminate," which is why I'd never say that people on "keto" are eliminating a food group.
You may not consider meat alternatives to be part of the "meat" food group, but that's a personal defining of the term that doesn't match how they're actually used by the governments of the US, Canada, Australia, and nutritional professionals. It's about as useful as me saying I don't consider meat to be part of a legitimate food group. I'm free to think so, but why is it particularly relevant?
Food groups exist to help people with meal planning and for the purposes of meal planning and meeting macronutrient needs, it makes more sense to consider tofu as part of the "meat" food group than than vegetable one, just like it makes more sense to consider a glass of soy milk to be "diary" instead of a vegetable.
Fair enough.
I wonder if the government would ever switch to a macro chart and leave food groups behind? It might make more sense for all woes.1 -
I think there's a lot more to nutrition than macros, and all diets are generally going to include all three macros (with the exception of the most extreme carnivores, I suppose), so I don't think that would satisfy what they are trying to convey with food groups.8
-
The research done for the rankings was not very comprehensive, IMO. I like the Mediterranean diet but the rankings seem to be based on opinions.
For the best diets for T2Ds, they don't even include LCHF, which has something like an 80+ % success rate in improving the disease and losing weight in the second year of the Virta trials - the best of all diets. The ADA finally included LCHF in their recommended diets because of that study.
Keto, Dukkan and Whole 30 are ranked as bottom diets, although keto is one of the top for fast weight loss (makes sense considering cutting carbs results in a few pounds of water loss). The rankers advise against those diets because they (apparently) eliminate entire food groups - not sure which food groups they are thinking of... They also say, in their rankings, that Keto is not recommended for those with kidney problems or liver problems even though it is used to treat NAFLDand there is no reason a moderate protein diet like Keto would be hard on kidneys.
Speaking of diets that actually do eliminate food groups, veganism is ranked as one of the best diets to try ...for weight loss.
Moderation or calorie counting is not mentioned anywhere either, and that seems to be the most popular way to lose weight: eat less, move more.
Regarding the kidneys, the appropriate diets vary. The Alport Syndrome Foundation suggests low protein, plant based for the particular issues that arise in the kidneys. In this disease, the body is missing a connective tissue, so the higher protein puts stress on the glomeruli as they are filtering waste. Keto is not recommended for this kidney problem, and it's probably safer for a national publication to make a blanket statement to be wary of keto. Of course, anyone with kidney problems should be talking to their treatment team because there are so many rules at each stage of failure.
Low protein could be a classical (medically prescribed) ketogenic diet. The fat to protein and carbs ratio is 4:1 (sometimes 3:1) so protein was often low, especially considering that type of ketogenic diet is often calorie restricted too.
Typically a ketogenic diet is moderate protein, and most ketoers do not use, or go below, the minimum recommended protein amount. In that sense, it may be inappropriate from some with special circumstances.
0 -
I think there's a lot more to nutrition than macros, and all diets are generally going to include all three macros (with the exception of the most extreme carnivores, I suppose), so I don't think that would satisfy what they are trying to convey with food groups.
True. There is more to nutrition than macros, That's where the old seven food groups came from - micronutrients - where cabbage and grapefruit go together, but not with potatoes and bananas, and neither of those groups go with carrots, although they are all the same macro.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I agree with your definition of "eliminate," which is why I'd never say that people on "keto" are eliminating a food group.
You may not consider meat alternatives to be part of the "meat" food group, but that's a personal defining of the term that doesn't match how they're actually used by the governments of the US, Canada, Australia, and nutritional professionals. It's about as useful as me saying I don't consider meat to be part of a legitimate food group. I'm free to think so, but why is it particularly relevant?
Food groups exist to help people with meal planning and for the purposes of meal planning and meeting macronutrient needs, it makes more sense to consider tofu as part of the "meat" food group than than vegetable one, just like it makes more sense to consider a glass of soy milk to be "diary" instead of a vegetable.
Fair enough.
I wonder if the government would ever switch to a macro chart and leave food groups behind? It might make more sense for all woes.
Macros are a further abstraction, and (speaking in very general, mass-communication, mass-population terms) people have trouble with abstractions.
Someone who has intentionally and thoughtfully chosen an uncommon way of eating is probably capable of understanding a "meat group" as including other protein sources, and a "dairy group" as including some nut/bean milks. Someone who is maybe not in tune with technical details**, but who's eating a more standard, average kind of diet (eats meat, carbs, etc.) is - I think - going to find the "inaccurate" food group names more helpful. JMO, obviously.
**Notice the folks even here on MFP who think "simple carbs" are rice/white bread, and "complex carbs" are fruits; and that sort of thing. The more layers of abstraction, the more misunderstandings. The groupings named for foods are imprecise and misleading in one way, but naming the groups for macros can be difficult, too, for others.
9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I agree with your definition of "eliminate," which is why I'd never say that people on "keto" are eliminating a food group.
You may not consider meat alternatives to be part of the "meat" food group, but that's a personal defining of the term that doesn't match how they're actually used by the governments of the US, Canada, Australia, and nutritional professionals. It's about as useful as me saying I don't consider meat to be part of a legitimate food group. I'm free to think so, but why is it particularly relevant?
Food groups exist to help people with meal planning and for the purposes of meal planning and meeting macronutrient needs, it makes more sense to consider tofu as part of the "meat" food group than than vegetable one, just like it makes more sense to consider a glass of soy milk to be "diary" instead of a vegetable.
Fair enough.
I wonder if the government would ever switch to a macro chart and leave food groups behind? It might make more sense for all woes.
Macros are a further abstraction, and (speaking in very general, mass-communication, mass-population terms) people have trouble with abstractions.
Someone who has intentionally and thoughtfully chosen an uncommon way of eating is probably capable of understanding a "meat group" as including other protein sources, and a "dairy group" as including some nut/bean milks. Someone who is maybe not in tune with technical details**, but who's eating a more standard, average kind of diet (eats meat, carbs, etc.) is - I think - going to find the "inaccurate" food group names more helpful. JMO, obviously.
**Notice the folks even here on MFP who think "simple carbs" are rice/white bread, and "complex carbs" are fruits; and that sort of thing. The more layers of abstraction, the more misunderstandings. The groupings named for foods are imprecise and misleading in one way, but naming the groups for macros can be difficult, too, for others.
You may be right. Macros could be a distraction that muddies the waters.
On the other hand, the food groups could be a distraction that removes clarity. I remember thinking that grains were an essential food because it had its own group or was the base of the pyramid. I remember cutting fats to as little as possible because of where that food group was placed on the pyramid. Knowing what macros are, and what the minimum requirements are for them, may help some people, like me, plan their diet in a healthier way than just going by food groups.
Perhaps a different classification with minimum or optional requirements given, and the examples of those foods, would work.
But I'm off topic.
0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I agree with your definition of "eliminate," which is why I'd never say that people on "keto" are eliminating a food group.
You may not consider meat alternatives to be part of the "meat" food group, but that's a personal defining of the term that doesn't match how they're actually used by the governments of the US, Canada, Australia, and nutritional professionals. It's about as useful as me saying I don't consider meat to be part of a legitimate food group. I'm free to think so, but why is it particularly relevant?
Food groups exist to help people with meal planning and for the purposes of meal planning and meeting macronutrient needs, it makes more sense to consider tofu as part of the "meat" food group than than vegetable one, just like it makes more sense to consider a glass of soy milk to be "diary" instead of a vegetable.
Fair enough.
I wonder if the government would ever switch to a macro chart and leave food groups behind? It might make more sense for all woes.
Macros are a further abstraction, and (speaking in very general, mass-communication, mass-population terms) people have trouble with abstractions.
Someone who has intentionally and thoughtfully chosen an uncommon way of eating is probably capable of understanding a "meat group" as including other protein sources, and a "dairy group" as including some nut/bean milks. Someone who is maybe not in tune with technical details**, but who's eating a more standard, average kind of diet (eats meat, carbs, etc.) is - I think - going to find the "inaccurate" food group names more helpful. JMO, obviously.
**Notice the folks even here on MFP who think "simple carbs" are rice/white bread, and "complex carbs" are fruits; and that sort of thing. The more layers of abstraction, the more misunderstandings. The groupings named for foods are imprecise and misleading in one way, but naming the groups for macros can be difficult, too, for others.
Or sometimes even think carbs = the foods I might think of as starchy carbs (potatoes, bread), and are shocked to find out that fruit contains carbs.5 -
Just bumping from yesterday, in case new ones are interested 0
-
janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I think you are just justifying the bold to yourself. Having a quarter of a potato, a couple of beans, a few grams of oats is not realistic or satisfying. Keto is largely an elimination diet, especially if you are limiting yourself to 20g a day. Heck, a non flavored greek yogurt is over 1/3 of your daily carbs at those levels. It makes getting adequate fiber difficult unless you want to live off of handfuls of spinach, but even then, there was no way I was able to get 30g. And really in order to stay at 20g, you pretty much need to live off of meats, low carb dairy, a few veggies (which leaves pretty much low GI ones in small quantities). Even more, if you want to splurge a little, than you can kick yourself out of ketosis and people may suffer from keto-flu again or deal with fatigue. And yes, for some it's possible to avoid, but not others.
One thing I laughed at with the Dom D'agistino and Layne Norton interview was how Dom said it could take up to 4 months to get the full impact of keto diets (i.e., satiated effects of ketone production). And I thought to myself, how many people would be able to sustain a diet for 4 months while feeling hungry, lethargic or tired. If that is what it would take me, which is highly possible since I only feel tired and lethargic, I would never make it.
For the OP, I am not really surprised. The Mediterranean diet has been one of the most regarded diets for over the past decade. IIRC, it has been voted number one several times. It's fully of healthy fats, whole grains, lots of fiber and low in processed foods (but does allow on occasion). So you can cheat on this plan, but focus on wholesome food. And ironically, it also has been linked to improvements in many cognitive health issues. I suspect that is mainly due to the healthy fats and nutrient dense fibrous foods in the diet.13 -
janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I think you are just justifying the bold to yourself. Having a quarter of a potato, a couple of beans, a few grams of oats is not realistic or satisfying. Keto is largely an elimination diet, especially if you are limiting yourself to 20g a day. Heck, a non flavored greek yogurt is over 1/3 of your daily carbs at those levels. It makes getting adequate fiber difficult unless you want to live off of handfuls of spinach, but even then, there was no way I was able to get 30g. And really in order to stay at 20g, you pretty much need to live off of meats, low carb dairy, a few veggies (which leaves pretty much low GI ones in small quantities). Even more, if you want to splurge a little, than you can kick yourself out of ketosis and people may suffer from keto-flu again or deal with fatigue. And yes, for some it's possible to avoid, but not others.
One thing I laughed at with the Dom D'agistino and Layne Norton interview was how Dom said it could take up to 4 months to get the full impact of keto diets (i.e., satiated effects of ketone production). And I thought to myself, how many people would be able to sustain a diet for 4 months while feeling hungry, lethargic or tired. If that is what it would take me, which is highly possible since I only feel tired and lethargic, I would never make it.
For the OP, I am not really surprised. The Mediterranean diet has been one of the most regarded diets for over the past decade. IIRC, it has been voted number one several times. It's fully of healthy fats, whole grains, lots of fiber and low in processed foods (but does allow on occasion). So you can cheat on this plan, but focus on wholesome food. And ironically, it also has been linked to improvements in many cognitive health issues. I suspect that is mainly due to the healthy fats and nutrient dense fibrous foods in the diet.
I disagree. I don't think I'm justifying. I think the word eliminate can be used literally.
If I want to eliminate mice from my house, I want them all gone. I'm not going to restrict the mice in the house to just a few.
Having 5 Cheerios is not satisfying, but it's enough to trigger my celiac disease.
Restriction is not literally considered to be elimination. Others may interpret it thus, but it does not mean it's right.
Calorie restriction =\= calorie elimination or fasting.
If one splurges on carbs, as I did over the holiday, you will only experience Keto flu if you don't address electrolytes. Keto flu is an electrolyte imbalance and easy enough to fix. The only fatigue I felt was a couple hours after eating the carbs when my BG dropped. Splurging on carbs is possible while following a ketogenic diet, it just is not recommended for those with health issues, or with frequency... the Mediterranean diet is similar.
Carb cycling (variation) does not cause keto flu.
Many people become Keto adapted after eating Keto for a few months. Some experience a slight dip in energy during intense exercise. Anything beyond that would seem to indicate a lipid metabolizing disorder - most can use fat for fuel just fine.6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I think you are just justifying the bold to yourself. Having a quarter of a potato, a couple of beans, a few grams of oats is not realistic or satisfying. Keto is largely an elimination diet, especially if you are limiting yourself to 20g a day. Heck, a non flavored greek yogurt is over 1/3 of your daily carbs at those levels. It makes getting adequate fiber difficult unless you want to live off of handfuls of spinach, but even then, there was no way I was able to get 30g. And really in order to stay at 20g, you pretty much need to live off of meats, low carb dairy, a few veggies (which leaves pretty much low GI ones in small quantities). Even more, if you want to splurge a little, than you can kick yourself out of ketosis and people may suffer from keto-flu again or deal with fatigue. And yes, for some it's possible to avoid, but not others.
One thing I laughed at with the Dom D'agistino and Layne Norton interview was how Dom said it could take up to 4 months to get the full impact of keto diets (i.e., satiated effects of ketone production). And I thought to myself, how many people would be able to sustain a diet for 4 months while feeling hungry, lethargic or tired. If that is what it would take me, which is highly possible since I only feel tired and lethargic, I would never make it.
For the OP, I am not really surprised. The Mediterranean diet has been one of the most regarded diets for over the past decade. IIRC, it has been voted number one several times. It's fully of healthy fats, whole grains, lots of fiber and low in processed foods (but does allow on occasion). So you can cheat on this plan, but focus on wholesome food. And ironically, it also has been linked to improvements in many cognitive health issues. I suspect that is mainly due to the healthy fats and nutrient dense fibrous foods in the diet.
I disagree. I don't think I'm justifying. I think the word eliminate can be used literally.
If I want to eliminate mice from my house, I want them all gone. I'm not going to restrict the mice in the house to just a few.
Having 5 Cheerios is not satisfying, but it's enough to trigger my celiac disease.
Restriction is not literally considered to be elimination. Others may interpret it thus, but it does not mean it's right.
Calorie restriction =\= calorie elimination or fasting.
If one splurges on carbs, as I did over the holiday, you will only experience Keto flu if you don't address electrolytes. Keto flu is an electrolyte imbalance and easy enough to fix. The only fatigue I felt was a couple hours after eating the carbs when my BG dropped. Splurging on carbs is possible while following a ketogenic diet, it just is not recommended for those with health issues, or with frequency... the Mediterranean diet is similar.
Carb cycling (variation) does not cause keto flu.
Many people become Keto adapted after eating Keto for a few months. Some experience a slight dip in energy during intense exercise. Anything beyond that would seem to indicate a lipid metabolizing disorder - most can use fat for fuel just fine.
When people can't eat a lot of foods because it doesn't fit within the framework of a diet, it means eliminate. Research how many ketoers are eating pineapple, potatoes, rice, cereal, etc... Just because you can have a few bites doesn't detract from it being eliminated. So yes, if you want to stay in ketosis, you generally have to eliminate a ton of carbs because it will be unlikely that you could fit any level of them and stay within your remaining alotted carbs.
Comparing your auto immune response to a diet is ridiculous. Keto is a choice, Celiac disease is not.
I know you always say its electrolyte imbalance, but i believe that is an over generalization. I for one always had fatigue and lethagy and i ate a ton of sodium... Much higher that the average ketoer.
If you look at performance based studies regarding keto, there is huge performance differences in the group. Much more so that control or high carb groups.
The fact that it can take months to adapt, feel better and get performance back is why keto diets aren't highly rated. The Mediterranean diet offers a much wider range of foods without the impacts that keto has.17 -
It's harder to convert fat to energy at high intensity. You can get better at it -- you can even get better at it when not eating low carb, it's why many distance running training programs will advocate for some fasted running, you can improve doing that. But you can't (so far as we now know, anyway) eliminate the gap. Keto or low carb may work fine for the average marathoner or some subset of ultra-marathoners (where you are not normally working at high intensity, but long and slow), but even they normally will imbibe some carbs on the run and do better for doing so.
IMO this has nothing to do with "best diet" for the vast majority of people, it's just true.4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I think you are just justifying the bold to yourself. Having a quarter of a potato, a couple of beans, a few grams of oats is not realistic or satisfying. Keto is largely an elimination diet, especially if you are limiting yourself to 20g a day. Heck, a non flavored greek yogurt is over 1/3 of your daily carbs at those levels. It makes getting adequate fiber difficult unless you want to live off of handfuls of spinach, but even then, there was no way I was able to get 30g. And really in order to stay at 20g, you pretty much need to live off of meats, low carb dairy, a few veggies (which leaves pretty much low GI ones in small quantities). Even more, if you want to splurge a little, than you can kick yourself out of ketosis and people may suffer from keto-flu again or deal with fatigue. And yes, for some it's possible to avoid, but not others.
One thing I laughed at with the Dom D'agistino and Layne Norton interview was how Dom said it could take up to 4 months to get the full impact of keto diets (i.e., satiated effects of ketone production). And I thought to myself, how many people would be able to sustain a diet for 4 months while feeling hungry, lethargic or tired. If that is what it would take me, which is highly possible since I only feel tired and lethargic, I would never make it.
For the OP, I am not really surprised. The Mediterranean diet has been one of the most regarded diets for over the past decade. IIRC, it has been voted number one several times. It's fully of healthy fats, whole grains, lots of fiber and low in processed foods (but does allow on occasion). So you can cheat on this plan, but focus on wholesome food. And ironically, it also has been linked to improvements in many cognitive health issues. I suspect that is mainly due to the healthy fats and nutrient dense fibrous foods in the diet.
I disagree. I don't think I'm justifying. I think the word eliminate can be used literally.
If I want to eliminate mice from my house, I want them all gone. I'm not going to restrict the mice in the house to just a few.
Having 5 Cheerios is not satisfying, but it's enough to trigger my celiac disease.
Restriction is not literally considered to be elimination. Others may interpret it thus, but it does not mean it's right.
Calorie restriction =\= calorie elimination or fasting.
If one splurges on carbs, as I did over the holiday, you will only experience Keto flu if you don't address electrolytes. Keto flu is an electrolyte imbalance and easy enough to fix. The only fatigue I felt was a couple hours after eating the carbs when my BG dropped. Splurging on carbs is possible while following a ketogenic diet, it just is not recommended for those with health issues, or with frequency... the Mediterranean diet is similar.
Carb cycling (variation) does not cause keto flu.
Many people become Keto adapted after eating Keto for a few months. Some experience a slight dip in energy during intense exercise. Anything beyond that would seem to indicate a lipid metabolizing disorder - most can use fat for fuel just fine.
When people can't eat a lot of foods because it doesn't fit within the framework of a diet, it means eliminate. Research how many ketoers are eating pineapple, potatoes, rice, cereal, etc... Just because you can have a few bites doesn't detract from it being eliminated. So yes, if you want to stay in ketosis, you generally have to eliminate a ton of carbs because it will be unlikely that you could fit any level of them and stay within your remaining alotted carbs.
Comparing your auto immune response to a diet is ridiculous. Keto is a choice, Celiac disease is not.
To the bolded, no, IMO, it doesn't.
The terms "eliminating a ton of carbs" and "eliminate carbs" have very different meanings. That's all I am saying. Having a few bites is NOT eliminating a food. That's restriction, or even a severe restriction. TBH, I'm surprised you are arguing that.
I brought up celiac to show what eliminated foods (gluten) actually means. Eliminate is different that restrict.
Eating ketogenic does not mean that you need to be in ketosis at all times. I would guess that most are in ketosis the vast majority of the time, but TKD, CKD, or just someone with IR and an overactive liver may not be ketogenic all of the time.I know you always say its electrolyte imbalance, but i believe that is an over generalization. I for one always had fatigue and lethagy and i ate a ton of sodium... Much higher that the average ketoer.
If you look at performance based studies regarding keto, there is huge performance differences in the group. Much more so that control or high carb groups.
As to the lethargy, perhaps you have a problem with fat metabolism if you are 100% sure that you were getting enough electrolytes for you (your size, hydration, and activity level)? I have no other idea why you can't produce adequate energy for day to day living while ketogenic. Or were you just referring to when you do strenuous exercise, which is known to have a decline in energy while becoming fat adapted for many people? It can be expected then.The fact that it can take months to adapt, feel better and get performance back is why keto diets aren't highly rated. The Mediterranean diet offers a much wider range of foods without the impacts that keto has.
I think I missed where they said that was why it was not highly ranked.
The criteria when keto was last was:
"Best Diets for Healthy Eating combines nutritional completeness and safety ratings, giving twice the weight to safety. A healthy diet should provide sufficient calories and not fall seriously short on important nutrients or entire food groups."
Some of what they wrote about it had a fair bit of misinformation which makes me think their rankings are not very accurate. Then vegan (which does eliminate meat, eggs and dairy) is ranked above it, as is slimfast and HMR... So meal replacement shakes are better for healthy eating than cutting carbs? LOL7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I think you are just justifying the bold to yourself. Having a quarter of a potato, a couple of beans, a few grams of oats is not realistic or satisfying. Keto is largely an elimination diet, especially if you are limiting yourself to 20g a day. Heck, a non flavored greek yogurt is over 1/3 of your daily carbs at those levels. It makes getting adequate fiber difficult unless you want to live off of handfuls of spinach, but even then, there was no way I was able to get 30g. And really in order to stay at 20g, you pretty much need to live off of meats, low carb dairy, a few veggies (which leaves pretty much low GI ones in small quantities). Even more, if you want to splurge a little, than you can kick yourself out of ketosis and people may suffer from keto-flu again or deal with fatigue. And yes, for some it's possible to avoid, but not others.
One thing I laughed at with the Dom D'agistino and Layne Norton interview was how Dom said it could take up to 4 months to get the full impact of keto diets (i.e., satiated effects of ketone production). And I thought to myself, how many people would be able to sustain a diet for 4 months while feeling hungry, lethargic or tired. If that is what it would take me, which is highly possible since I only feel tired and lethargic, I would never make it.
For the OP, I am not really surprised. The Mediterranean diet has been one of the most regarded diets for over the past decade. IIRC, it has been voted number one several times. It's fully of healthy fats, whole grains, lots of fiber and low in processed foods (but does allow on occasion). So you can cheat on this plan, but focus on wholesome food. And ironically, it also has been linked to improvements in many cognitive health issues. I suspect that is mainly due to the healthy fats and nutrient dense fibrous foods in the diet.
I disagree. I don't think I'm justifying. I think the word eliminate can be used literally.
If I want to eliminate mice from my house, I want them all gone. I'm not going to restrict the mice in the house to just a few.
Having 5 Cheerios is not satisfying, but it's enough to trigger my celiac disease.
Restriction is not literally considered to be elimination. Others may interpret it thus, but it does not mean it's right.
Calorie restriction =\= calorie elimination or fasting.
If one splurges on carbs, as I did over the holiday, you will only experience Keto flu if you don't address electrolytes. Keto flu is an electrolyte imbalance and easy enough to fix. The only fatigue I felt was a couple hours after eating the carbs when my BG dropped. Splurging on carbs is possible while following a ketogenic diet, it just is not recommended for those with health issues, or with frequency... the Mediterranean diet is similar.
Carb cycling (variation) does not cause keto flu.
Many people become Keto adapted after eating Keto for a few months. Some experience a slight dip in energy during intense exercise. Anything beyond that would seem to indicate a lipid metabolizing disorder - most can use fat for fuel just fine.
When people can't eat a lot of foods because it doesn't fit within the framework of a diet, it means eliminate. Research how many ketoers are eating pineapple, potatoes, rice, cereal, etc... Just because you can have a few bites doesn't detract from it being eliminated. So yes, if you want to stay in ketosis, you generally have to eliminate a ton of carbs because it will be unlikely that you could fit any level of them and stay within your remaining alotted carbs.
Comparing your auto immune response to a diet is ridiculous. Keto is a choice, Celiac disease is not.
To the bolded, no, IMO, it doesn't.
The terms "eliminating a ton of carbs" and "eliminate carbs" have very different meanings. That's all I am saying. Having a few bites is NOT eliminating a food. That's restriction, or even a severe restriction. TBH, I'm surprised you are arguing that.
I brought up celiac to show what eliminated foods (gluten) actually means. Eliminate is different that restrict.
Eating ketogenic does not mean that you need to be in ketosis at all times. I would guess that most are in ketosis the vast majority of the time, but TKD, CKD, or just someone with IR and an overactive liver may not be ketogenic all of the time.I know you always say its electrolyte imbalance, but i believe that is an over generalization. I for one always had fatigue and lethagy and i ate a ton of sodium... Much higher that the average ketoer.
If you look at performance based studies regarding keto, there is huge performance differences in the group. Much more so that control or high carb groups.
As to the lethargy, perhaps you have a problem with fat metabolism if you are 100% sure that you were getting enough electrolytes for you (your size, hydration, and activity level)? I have no other idea why you can't produce adequate energy for day to day living while ketogenic. Or were you just referring to when you do strenuous exercise, which is known to have a decline in energy while becoming fat adapted for many people? It can be expected then.The fact that it can take months to adapt, feel better and get performance back is why keto diets aren't highly rated. The Mediterranean diet offers a much wider range of foods without the impacts that keto has.
I think I missed where they said that was why it was not highly ranked.
The criteria when keto was last was:
"Best Diets for Healthy Eating combines nutritional completeness and safety ratings, giving twice the weight to safety. A healthy diet should provide sufficient calories and not fall seriously short on important nutrients or entire food groups."
Some of what they wrote about it had a fair bit of misinformation which makes me think their rankings are not very accurate. Then vegan (which does eliminate meat, eggs and dairy) is ranked above it, as is slimfast and HMR... So meal replacement shakes are better for healthy eating than cutting carbs? LOL
Our definitions of eliminate are different. In the dieting context, if you are eliminating a food 99% of the time, especially if it doesn't fit within the context of that diet protocol, than it's elimination. You going outside the diet protocol and "not following it" for a period so you can eat whatever you want, is a deviation from the diet. When I was eating paleo, eliminating grains was a part of the protocol. If I ate grains, I wasn't following the diet. So in the strictest sense, which many will advocate for, keto does eliminating the majority of carb sources. TKD/CKD are different animals and different protocols outside modified keto diet.
So for when I was doing keto. Yes, I am very in tune and knowledgeable when it comes to tracking. And even on days I wasn't doing exercise, I still felt lethargic and drained. For most, I would agree that checking electrolytes is the first thing you should do, but there will be other cases where it's not the case.7 -
janejellyroll wrote: »In the thread that spawned this one, @lemurcat2 had a really good summary of the various food groups, which would determine whether the statements of elimination were accurate or not.
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/comment/43081581#Comment_43081581Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Yes, I wasn't surprised to see Keto in there for quick weight loss, what you say makes perfect sense, but I wonder where ther got some of their facts from. KWIM?
The diets they said eliminate food groups do not. A diet based on ethics is ranked for weight loss. And the most effective diet for treating insulin resistance is not even mention for treating T2D.
Some of it makes sense, like WW does work well for some, and the Mediterranean diet seems like a solid choice for many, but some other things they discuss was incorrect. unfortunate because many will take it at face value.
I wish the AP style book would have a listing/definition for "food groups". That's a pet peeve of mine as well.
Now I have to go and read the whole article. 😜
Is there any kind of consistent way of using that term. I don't think of it as having a clear meaning.
From an Australian site: https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/food-essentials/five-food-groups
Fruit, grain, vegetables and legumes, meat, dairy.
MyPlate (so US gov't): https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/myplate.html
Vegetables, fruit, grains, protein, dairy
Older US = Basic 7 food groups: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_USDA_nutrition_guides
Green and yellow vegetables (some raw; some cooked, frozen or canned)
Oranges, tomatoes, grapefruit (or raw cabbage or salad greens)
Potatoes and other vegetables and fruits (raw, dried, cooked, frozen or canned)
Milk and milk products (fluid, evaporated, dried milk, or cheese)
Meat, poultry, fish, or eggs (or dried beans, peas, nuts, or peanut butter)
Bread, flour, and cereals (natural whole grain, or enriched or restored)
Butter and fortified margarine (with added Vitamin A)
Also Basic 4:
Vegetables and fruits
Milk (but included all dairy)
Meat
Cereals and breads
Basic 4 is what I grew up with, but in my house the final category would have included all grains (including corn) and tubers (not that we had sweet potatoes a lot, more potatoes). They did not count as vegetables, you needed some other vegetable with them.
The basic four is the food groupings that I grew up with too. It's what I was thinking of with my earlier statement. I did not mean to mislead.
The Australian and the US definitions both include "alternatives" in the meat and dairy categories. I understand that older, obsolete definitions may define both meat and dairy as food groups (without including the alternatives), but I think the point is that our understanding of nutrition is probably better than it was when butter and margarine were considered an independent food group.
The point is that veganism no more "eliminates" a food group than a diet like, say, keto does. Veganism involves not eating some foods in a food group, keto involves eating a restricted amount of certain food groups. But both vegans and people on keto can eat from each food group.
There is a common, everyday way that people use "food group" (especially older people who grew up with the now-obsolete definitions) that may lead to the impression that veganism is eliminating food groups, I understand that.
I understand what you are saying.
I mentioned this in the other thread but I'll explain myself here too. I take the word eliminate literally. None of that food at all. Probably because I am a celiac and my son has a serious tree nut allergy, so unless we avoid certain foods 100%, there are health implications.
For me, eliminate =\= restricting to a small amount. Eliminating a food means eating none at all, even in trace amounts.
For others, I accept that eliminating = eating in small amounts.
I consider meat to be a food group. I don't think meat alternatives is part of that group. That falls into more of a macro - protein - rather than a food group, IMO. Meat alternatives are generally just plants that are higher in protein - in the legumes, vegetables or grains category. Ymmv
I think you are just justifying the bold to yourself. Having a quarter of a potato, a couple of beans, a few grams of oats is not realistic or satisfying. Keto is largely an elimination diet, especially if you are limiting yourself to 20g a day. Heck, a non flavored greek yogurt is over 1/3 of your daily carbs at those levels. It makes getting adequate fiber difficult unless you want to live off of handfuls of spinach, but even then, there was no way I was able to get 30g. And really in order to stay at 20g, you pretty much need to live off of meats, low carb dairy, a few veggies (which leaves pretty much low GI ones in small quantities). Even more, if you want to splurge a little, than you can kick yourself out of ketosis and people may suffer from keto-flu again or deal with fatigue. And yes, for some it's possible to avoid, but not others.
One thing I laughed at with the Dom D'agistino and Layne Norton interview was how Dom said it could take up to 4 months to get the full impact of keto diets (i.e., satiated effects of ketone production). And I thought to myself, how many people would be able to sustain a diet for 4 months while feeling hungry, lethargic or tired. If that is what it would take me, which is highly possible since I only feel tired and lethargic, I would never make it.
For the OP, I am not really surprised. The Mediterranean diet has been one of the most regarded diets for over the past decade. IIRC, it has been voted number one several times. It's fully of healthy fats, whole grains, lots of fiber and low in processed foods (but does allow on occasion). So you can cheat on this plan, but focus on wholesome food. And ironically, it also has been linked to improvements in many cognitive health issues. I suspect that is mainly due to the healthy fats and nutrient dense fibrous foods in the diet.
I disagree. I don't think I'm justifying. I think the word eliminate can be used literally.
If I want to eliminate mice from my house, I want them all gone. I'm not going to restrict the mice in the house to just a few.
Having 5 Cheerios is not satisfying, but it's enough to trigger my celiac disease.
Restriction is not literally considered to be elimination. Others may interpret it thus, but it does not mean it's right.
Calorie restriction =\= calorie elimination or fasting.
If one splurges on carbs, as I did over the holiday, you will only experience Keto flu if you don't address electrolytes. Keto flu is an electrolyte imbalance and easy enough to fix. The only fatigue I felt was a couple hours after eating the carbs when my BG dropped. Splurging on carbs is possible while following a ketogenic diet, it just is not recommended for those with health issues, or with frequency... the Mediterranean diet is similar.
Carb cycling (variation) does not cause keto flu.
Many people become Keto adapted after eating Keto for a few months. Some experience a slight dip in energy during intense exercise. Anything beyond that would seem to indicate a lipid metabolizing disorder - most can use fat for fuel just fine.
When people can't eat a lot of foods because it doesn't fit within the framework of a diet, it means eliminate. Research how many ketoers are eating pineapple, potatoes, rice, cereal, etc... Just because you can have a few bites doesn't detract from it being eliminated. So yes, if you want to stay in ketosis, you generally have to eliminate a ton of carbs because it will be unlikely that you could fit any level of them and stay within your remaining alotted carbs.
Comparing your auto immune response to a diet is ridiculous. Keto is a choice, Celiac disease is not.
To the bolded, no, IMO, it doesn't.
The terms "eliminating a ton of carbs" and "eliminate carbs" have very different meanings. That's all I am saying. Having a few bites is NOT eliminating a food. That's restriction, or even a severe restriction. TBH, I'm surprised you are arguing that.
I brought up celiac to show what eliminated foods (gluten) actually means. Eliminate is different that restrict.
Eating ketogenic does not mean that you need to be in ketosis at all times. I would guess that most are in ketosis the vast majority of the time, but TKD, CKD, or just someone with IR and an overactive liver may not be ketogenic all of the time.I know you always say its electrolyte imbalance, but i believe that is an over generalization. I for one always had fatigue and lethagy and i ate a ton of sodium... Much higher that the average ketoer.
If you look at performance based studies regarding keto, there is huge performance differences in the group. Much more so that control or high carb groups.
As to the lethargy, perhaps you have a problem with fat metabolism if you are 100% sure that you were getting enough electrolytes for you (your size, hydration, and activity level)? I have no other idea why you can't produce adequate energy for day to day living while ketogenic. Or were you just referring to when you do strenuous exercise, which is known to have a decline in energy while becoming fat adapted for many people? It can be expected then.The fact that it can take months to adapt, feel better and get performance back is why keto diets aren't highly rated. The Mediterranean diet offers a much wider range of foods without the impacts that keto has.
I think I missed where they said that was why it was not highly ranked.
The criteria when keto was last was:
"Best Diets for Healthy Eating combines nutritional completeness and safety ratings, giving twice the weight to safety. A healthy diet should provide sufficient calories and not fall seriously short on important nutrients or entire food groups."
Some of what they wrote about it had a fair bit of misinformation which makes me think their rankings are not very accurate. Then vegan (which does eliminate meat, eggs and dairy) is ranked above it, as is slimfast and HMR... So meal replacement shakes are better for healthy eating than cutting carbs? LOL
Our definitions of eliminate are different. In the dieting context, if you are eliminating a food 99% of the time, especially if it doesn't fit within the context of that diet protocol, than it's elimination. You going outside the diet protocol and "not following it" for a period so you can eat whatever you want, is a deviation from the diet. When I was eating paleo, eliminating grains was a part of the protocol. If I ate grains, I wasn't following the diet. So in the strictest sense, which many will advocate for, keto does eliminating the majority of carb sources. TKD/CKD are different animals and different protocols outside modified keto diet.
So for when I was doing keto. Yes, I am very in tune and knowledgeable when it comes to tracking. And even on days I wasn't doing exercise, I still felt lethargic and drained. For most, I would agree that checking electrolytes is the first thing you should do, but there will be other cases where it's not the case.
I agree that our definition of eliminate in a dieting context are different. I've done elimination diets for my health, like the AIP. When you stop eating a food you have eliminated it. Cutting back to a little is still not elimination.
I think our disagreement may stem from the fact that you have the opinion that the ketogenic diet is an elimination diet - that carbohydrates, or at least certain forms of cabs, are eliminated. I don't agree with that opinion because I know I can, and have, include almost all foods in in a ketogenic diet in varying amounts.
We'll have to agree to disagree that food elimination and food restriction is the same thing.
As to the lethargy from Keto, perhaps people should discus with a doctor why they don't have energy from fats.
When I ate more carbs, I experienced reactive (postprandial) hypoglycaemia symptoms with a fatigue and headaches. That wasn't normal, and I discovered underlying IR was most likely causing it. Likewise, not having energy in a LCHF diet could imply metabolic inflexibility, but on the other side of the spectrum (especially after allowing time for Keto adaptation).7 -
Getting back on track with the OP, I thought the article was interesting and jives with most of the accepted ideas of nutrition loosely based on current research. It boils down to the best diet is always the one you like and will stick to.
Personally, I eat in a somewhat similar way to the mediterranean diet, that is the diet of my family of origin from Italy, but I eat far more meat protein than the mediterranean diet recommends.8 -
Getting back on track with the OP, I thought the article was interesting and jives with most of the accepted ideas of nutrition loosely based on current research. It boils down to the best diet is always the one you like and will stick to.
Personally, I eat in a somewhat similar way to the mediterranean diet, that is the diet of my family of origin from Italy, but I eat far more meat protein than the mediterranean diet recommends.
Same with me.
I actually don't like that it's called the Mediterranean diet, since it makes people think it's some named diet with rules and all that, and that they can lose weight just eating that way. Or they think they need to eat Mediterranean food. Probably compared to northern Europe back in the day there's more fresh fish, more fresh fruit and veg (climate), and more olive oil, less butter, as well as less meat.
I think it's basically the same as the normally recommended patterns of healthy eating.
I probably eat more meat and dairy, but do broadly try to follow that way of eating. When veg and fruit are in season I tend to focus on what's in season around me.
I grew up eating what I'd consider the then-American style of healthy eating (eggs and wholewheat toast or oatmeal with milk plus fruit in the morning -- I always hated cold cereal). Other meals basically a meat, a starch, and vegetables (and corn or potatoes were a starch, not a veg). Not the SAD as it's thought of now, but very basic midwestern normal eating. I think that's generally healthy and it's not that different from how I eat now although I do think it was overkill on the meat and I eat less now. (My parents very much grew up with the idea that dinner needed meat and thought it was weird when my sister or I would prepare something without it. They also thought you should eat vegetables with lunch and dinner.)7 -
Getting back on track with the OP, I thought the article was interesting and jives with most of the accepted ideas of nutrition loosely based on current research. It boils down to the best diet is always the one you like and will stick to.
Personally, I eat in a somewhat similar way to the mediterranean diet, that is the diet of my family of origin from Italy, but I eat far more meat protein than the mediterranean diet recommends.
Same, except I don't eat any meat protein I don't eat the fish that the Med guidelines recommend either, I eat more dairy (I have yogurt every day, for example) and definitely eat more beans. 4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Getting back on track with the OP, I thought the article was interesting and jives with most of the accepted ideas of nutrition loosely based on current research. It boils down to the best diet is always the one you like and will stick to.
Personally, I eat in a somewhat similar way to the mediterranean diet, that is the diet of my family of origin from Italy, but I eat far more meat protein than the mediterranean diet recommends.
Same, except I don't eat any meat protein I don't eat the fish that the Med guidelines recommend either, I eat more dairy (I have yogurt every day, for example) and definitely eat more beans.
I can't imagine the good Mediterranean folks objecting to that 3
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