Mind Blown!
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Ann, I'll see if I have the daily Fitbit data saved anywhere to calculate a standard deviation.
My off the cuff take is that there will be extreme correlation to the sd of food intake as I usually close my day after enjoying as big a snack as I can afford (by telling my "supervisor" hamsters that I can afford a smaller snack than I actually can, and then having her cut off the "eating more hamsters" because they are now too far over their calories
) In any case I seldom, if ever, leave calories lying around unless I am trying to correct a weight trend direction.
Steps are a valid proxy for activity and exercise for me. Not perfect (even 2-3k keyboard steps once); but close enough for weight control with a sub 5% of TDEE error
Sorry Kim, I don't think of myself as particularly consistent in terms of food and I don't pre-plan... just randomly eat when hungry! Mind you, this may have changed a bit into maintenance.
As in, over the years, I have developed some "staples"/substitutions/known cause and effect items (vanilla cone before or right after a walk, handful of almonds to tide me over for a few hours, my standard yogurt and jello pudding combinations) and I eat out less than I used to... while still visiting fast food places for snacks.
So maybe I *am* more consistent in terms of food intake. Well, obviously I must be... hence the blown mind.
Of course there were varying weight changes in there too.
In thinking about things I can guarantee that the "homeostasis" is ACTIVE and in response to my weight trend.
For example I am currently actively trying to keep closer to my targets and increase my activity a bit as certain family issues meant a weight trend increase of almost 3lbs between my low in early November and my current high.
In previous years this "Christmas" increase and subsequent correction is also visible, with general increases after Canadian Thanksgiving in October and decreases from February to a low usually in late August/early September.
Absolutely my logging has become more relaxed Kim. In fact I even had three days this year (related to the family issue) where I didn't even go back to insert an ESTIMATE in spite of neither logging nor taking pictures! Complete data gap! In the past even for AYCE sushi I've gone back and done at the very least an estimate
Now to see what all of you have been writing while I've been taking my time pecking this post!!!2 -
Interesting again So perhaps the lesson is that logging has made you more capable of naturally tweaking your calorie intake based on the feedback of your weight, even considering looser and sometimes absent logging? 1
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I fully concur on the screen time including, to a degree, isolation and reduced activity...
I find it funny, especially if you consider my own interests and online involvement, how "younger <sub 40s whippersnapper" people will respond with five emails regarding a rental ad for a suite, how they will even text the landline in the ad, but they will just not call the *kitten* number to talk to the owner like it clearly asks them to do in the ad!!!!1 -
Interesting again So perhaps the lesson is that logging has made you more capable of naturally tweaking your calorie intake based on the feedback of your weight, even considering looser and sometimes absent logging?
I think that during my slower weight loss from low overweight to high normal weight I discovered that absent hedonism (mmm this tastes good and I want more) and the previously discussed "eating while emotionally agitated" (where I try to consciously substitute walking around) and eating when cold (usually from physical inactivity) and tired from lack of sleep (no solution as of yet), so absent all that, I CAN tell, if I allow myself a few minutes, that I've had enough food for now and yes, it does vary based on activity. So it then becomes a matter for the supervising hamsters to put a stop to any additional eating!!!!
My previous rubric (and still current to my detriment if not conscious about my actions) would be to keep eating till full!
And full had lots of levels... up to seriously unable to walk in the distant past.. but that's another story!4 -
Interesting again So perhaps the lesson is that logging has made you more capable of naturally tweaking your calorie intake based on the feedback of your weight, even considering looser and sometimes absent logging?
I think that during my slower weight loss from low overweight to high normal weight I discovered that absent hedonism (mmm this tastes good and I want more) and the previously discussed "eating while emotionally agitated" (where I try to consciously substitute walking around) and eating when cold (usually from physical inactivity) and tired from lack of sleep (no solution as of yet), so absent all that, I CAN tell, if I allow myself a few minutes, that I've had enough food for now and yes, it does vary based on activity. So it then becomes a matter for the supervising hamsters to put a stop to any additional eating!!!!
My previous rubric (and still current to my detriment if not conscious about my actions) would be to keep eating till full!
And full had lots of levels... up to seriously unable to walk in the distant past.. but that's another story!
I'm finding that one of the issues for me is that (1) I have a bad habit of eating rapidly, and (2) it seems to take me extra long (more than the oft-reported 20 minutes or so) for intake to register.
I'm working on those two things ("Chew slowly, and lots, Ann! Put down that fork between bites!" and then waiting longer, irritatingly longer , before choosing more food).
I'm not so much an emotional/stress eater, but my current self is overly hedonistic for my future self's good, which gets me to a similar spot . . . especially when fatigued/underslept. One of the good things (??!) I'm getting out of temporary injured-reserve rest/skipped workouts is that not getting up early for spin class, and it being winter-ish still, I can revert to my (apparently) natural 2AM-10AM kind of sleep cycle, instead of getting 1AM-7AM a lot of the time.
It's a process, innit? 2 -
absent hedonism✅ (mmm this tastes good and I want more) and
the previously discussed "eating while emotionally agitated"✅ (where I try to consciously substitute walking around)
and eating when cold ✅(usually from physical inactivity)
and tired from lack of sleep ✅ (no solution as of yet), so absent all that,
I CAN tell, if I allow myself a few minutes, that I've had enough food for now and yes, it does vary based on activity. So it then becomes a matter for the supe...!
This is my experience, too!
I find cold [sweater, not tea/coffee, turn up heat]
&emotional agitation easiest to navigate now [deep breaths, all is ephemeral, let it flow through you & not lodge in you (and food won’t fix it)
Then lack of sleep (rest even if not sleeping & lots of water)
Then the hedonism...
working on this one - mostly by reminding myself my focus is on health... it still traps me though...1 -
I'm tracking data over the last 3 years now. Entered maintenance about 6 months into tracking. Like snacking and MFP allows me to be responsible about it.
Google drive link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1x-U5_S1FOLICblo3jzexdgYx7f34SiKsqk1Tg0kTTHo/edit?usp=drivesdk1 -
@MadisonMolly2017 @AnnPT77 Interesting how many similarities we have and how some solutions work for some; but not all, of us! My being cold at 3:00am (usually coupled with ending a long session in front of a computer screen and then having to drive for a good half hour and, eventually, get to bed) has proven very resistant to anything but calories, or hamster power, and usually the supervising hamsters lose out on that one!!! Agitation when talking on the phone... I just have to remember to get up and walk instead of chew
@rimir74 so... are you eating very similar amounts over time? Are you showing a high degree of variability in terms of your food intake? I glanced at your data and it looks like you maybe reduced Calories OUT after your weight loss so your net Caloris came up a bit? But I could be wrong 0 -
Yes very similar amounts over time. I don't use a food scale and so it's guesstimation. So as to take care of that variability - the calories I really consider as having been consumed is the average of my Gross and Net.
I also lost a step tracker which I had in my weight loss phase which is why I no track/ add steps calories. This should maybe account for quite a bit of the calories out reduction.0 -
@MadisonMolly2017 @AnnPT77 Interesting how many similarities we have and how some solutions work for some; but not all, of us! My being cold at 3:00am (usually coupled with ending a long session in front of a computer screen and then having to drive for a good half hour and, eventually, get to bed) has proven very resistant to anything but calories, or hamster power, and usually the supervising hamsters lose out on that one!!! Agitation when talking on the phone... I just have to remember to get up and walk instead of chew
Maybe a snack at 2:00 or 2:30?
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PAV, I've been incubating points from this thread more (how my brain works ), and your recent post (3/22, 9:27) provokes a comment that draws on that incubated inner-dialogue nonsense.
You mention cold at 3AM, and calories. I've been thinking about insulation, adaptive thermogenesis, and perception of being cold or hot, tired or energetic, in light of our earlier chat here about habits and homeostasis.
Specifically, I've been thinking about parts of (apparent) homeostasis that are (seemingly, subjectively) not about habits, but maybe more about wired-in physiology.
We were alluding earlier in the thread, I think, about adaptation over time, to new calorie levels, to being more aware of feeling full, and what not - how that evolves in maintenance.
I feel like in the last few months (as I go into year 3 of maintenance) I'm noticing more of the "normal" side effects of over- or (rarely ) under-eating. That is, I notice being hotter (sometimes hot flashes) and maybe more energetic sometimes after a day that was high-calorie (without a compensating high exercise day to justify it), plus maybe not feeling as hungry the next day - the kinds of things that the fitness bloggers who do "10,000 calorie challenge" days sometimes report. These feelings are new to me. (Historically, I can stuff myself every single day, and not feel noticeably different.) I may be deluding myself, or simply noticing now something that happened always - I don't know. If they're real, that's (I think) not a habit-based piece of homeostasis, but a physiological one.
The being cold thing - feeling that one should eat if cold - that seems related. I think you've spoken on other threads about how maybe losing too fast, to the point of extra adaptive thermogenesis, might lead people to feel cold all the time - that it isn't just about fat as insulation, when it's a pattern of being cold, rather than a singular event. (That's the flip side, of course, of feeling cold and therefore inclined to eat, and this latter "cold so want to eat" is also more momentary or situational.)
Also, the "eat more, feel energetic", "feel tired, want to eat" effects seem like other physiological pieces, maybe.
What's my point? I dunno. I'm kind of rambling.
I think it's wondering whether there's an awareness that can emerge, or maybe it's feelings that emerge, as one progresses in weight maintenance (maybe previously masked by the hormonal distortions inherent with obesity? maybe just noticed because of repeat experiences of over-eating being an occasional thing rather than a habit?). I don't know.
Also, I think part of my point is wanting to say that although I underscored habits in an earlier post, I think there are physiological effects (not exclusively habits) that do affect behavior and therefore homeostasis (believe science on my side in this, too) . . . but I don't think these constitute a non-negotiable "set point" or anything like that.4 -
PAV, I've been incubating points from this thread more (how my brain works ), and your recent post (3/22, 9:27) provokes a comment that draws on that incubated inner-dialogue nonsense.
You mention cold at 3AM, and calories. I've been thinking about insulation, adaptive thermogenesis, and perception of being cold or hot, tired or energetic, in light of our earlier chat here about habits and homeostasis.
Specifically, I've been thinking about parts of (apparent) homeostasis that are (seemingly, subjectively) not about habits, but maybe more about wired-in physiology.
We were alluding earlier in the thread, I think, about adaptation over time, to new calorie levels, to being more aware of feeling full, and what not - how that evolves in maintenance.
I feel like in the last few months (as I go into year 3 of maintenance) I'm noticing more of the "normal" side effects of over- or (rarely ) under-eating. That is, I notice being hotter (sometimes hot flashes) and maybe more energetic sometimes after a day that was high-calorie (without a compensating high exercise day to justify it), plus maybe not feeling as hungry the next day - the kinds of things that the fitness bloggers who do "10,000 calorie challenge" days sometimes report. These feelings are new to me. (Historically, I can stuff myself every single day, and not feel noticeably different.) I may be deluding myself, or simply noticing now something that happened always - I don't know. If they're real, that's (I think) not a habit-based piece of homeostasis, but a physiological one.
The being cold thing - feeling that one should eat if cold - that seems related. I think you've spoken on other threads about how maybe losing too fast, to the point of extra adaptive thermogenesis, might lead people to feel cold all the time - that it isn't just about fat as insulation, when it's a pattern of being cold, rather than a singular event. (That's the flip side, of course, of feeling cold and therefore inclined to eat, and this latter "cold so want to eat" is also more momentary or situational.)
Also, the "eat more, feel energetic", "feel tired, want to eat" effects seem like other physiological pieces, maybe.
What's my point? I dunno. I'm kind of rambling.
I think it's wondering whether there's an awareness that can emerge, or maybe it's feelings that emerge, as one progresses in weight maintenance (maybe previously masked by the hormonal distortions inherent with obesity? maybe just noticed because of repeat experiences of over-eating being an occasional thing rather than a habit?). I don't know.
Also, I think part of my point is wanting to say that although I underscored habits in an earlier post, I think there are physiological effects (not exclusively habits) that do affect behavior and therefore homeostasis (believe science on my side in this, too) . . . but I don't think these constitute a non-negotiable "set point" or anything like that.
Well, as far the idea of weight loss to quickly causes "extra" metabolic adaptation is one of my current interests. From what I have read, is that there the static theory. Basically, that once you have lost more than 20% of your body mass, that any adaptation can be explained by fat and lean mass loss. Then there is the spring board theory. That metabolism slow in concurrence with amount and rapidity of weight loss. The trouble with testing this idea, is controlling the people in the weight loss. I mean Libels labs only reduces the weight of participants by 10-20%. Even the Minnesota starvation study only 25%. I have a theory about the cold feeling some people, including myself have. Leptin has direct impact on the hypothalamus. Thus possibly lowering our body temps in an attempt to conserve energy. Just my ramblings of the gerbils in my head! Lol4 -
psychod787 wrote: »PAV, I've been incubating points from this thread more (how my brain works ), and your recent post (3/22, 9:27) provokes a comment that draws on that incubated inner-dialogue nonsense.
You mention cold at 3AM, and calories. I've been thinking about insulation, adaptive thermogenesis, and perception of being cold or hot, tired or energetic, in light of our earlier chat here about habits and homeostasis.
Specifically, I've been thinking about parts of (apparent) homeostasis that are (seemingly, subjectively) not about habits, but maybe more about wired-in physiology.
We were alluding earlier in the thread, I think, about adaptation over time, to new calorie levels, to being more aware of feeling full, and what not - how that evolves in maintenance.
I feel like in the last few months (as I go into year 3 of maintenance) I'm noticing more of the "normal" side effects of over- or (rarely ) under-eating. That is, I notice being hotter (sometimes hot flashes) and maybe more energetic sometimes after a day that was high-calorie (without a compensating high exercise day to justify it), plus maybe not feeling as hungry the next day - the kinds of things that the fitness bloggers who do "10,000 calorie challenge" days sometimes report. These feelings are new to me. (Historically, I can stuff myself every single day, and not feel noticeably different.) I may be deluding myself, or simply noticing now something that happened always - I don't know. If they're real, that's (I think) not a habit-based piece of homeostasis, but a physiological one.
The being cold thing - feeling that one should eat if cold - that seems related. I think you've spoken on other threads about how maybe losing too fast, to the point of extra adaptive thermogenesis, might lead people to feel cold all the time - that it isn't just about fat as insulation, when it's a pattern of being cold, rather than a singular event. (That's the flip side, of course, of feeling cold and therefore inclined to eat, and this latter "cold so want to eat" is also more momentary or situational.)
Also, the "eat more, feel energetic", "feel tired, want to eat" effects seem like other physiological pieces, maybe.
What's my point? I dunno. I'm kind of rambling.
I think it's wondering whether there's an awareness that can emerge, or maybe it's feelings that emerge, as one progresses in weight maintenance (maybe previously masked by the hormonal distortions inherent with obesity? maybe just noticed because of repeat experiences of over-eating being an occasional thing rather than a habit?). I don't know.
Also, I think part of my point is wanting to say that although I underscored habits in an earlier post, I think there are physiological effects (not exclusively habits) that do affect behavior and therefore homeostasis (believe science on my side in this, too) . . . but I don't think these constitute a non-negotiable "set point" or anything like that.
Well, as far the idea of weight loss to quickly causes "extra" metabolic adaptation is one of my current interests. From what I have read, is that there the static theory. Basically, that once you have lost more than 20% of your body mass, that any adaptation can be explained by fat and lean mass loss. Then there is the spring board theory. That metabolism slow in concurrence with amount and rapidity of weight loss. The trouble with testing this idea, is controlling the people in the weight loss. I mean Libels labs only reduces the weight of participants by 10-20%. Even the Minnesota starvation study only 25%. I have a theory about the cold feeling some people, including myself have. Leptin has direct impact on the hypothalamus. Thus possibly lowering our body temps in an attempt to conserve energy. Just my ramblings of the gerbils in my head! Lol
But interesting!
When I went off to college (many decades ago), I didn't gain the 'freshman 15'. Instead, I lost perhaps 30 pounds (hard to recall exactly). (It would've been hard to move less than I did during high school years, and possible though challenging to eat more.) I was cold that whole summer, something entirely new for me, then.
This round, much older of course, I lost down to a similar weight . . . but was not persistently cold, as any kind of a pattern, this time. I got more vigorous exercise this time than then ( which was not new exercise, just what I'd been doing for around a decade), but probably more volume of exercise back then (bike & walking transport on a large campus, physical job). It's hard to figure out nutrition differences, if there were any.
The weight I lost back then was a lower percentage of my body weight (about half as many pounds, +/-). I was a mere youth then (17-18) vs. this time (59-60).
I would've thought my "youthful metabolism" (using the term "metabolism" with the usual sloppiness here) would've made me more likely not to be cold then, and more likely to be so now. I don't have specific records, but I think I may've lost at least as fast, if not faster, this time (and it took more months in a deficit to do it, since more to lose).
It puzzles me a little.1 -
Well you both know that I believe that there is some degree of adaptive thermogenesis that takes place.
In the data point section, I can pretty reliably predict whether my scale will be going up or down based on my Fitbit "resting" heart rate.
I use "resting" rate because it is obviously not your heart rate when you wake up and before you've gotten out of bed, which used to be the definition I knew, but some sort of proprietary measurement that they're using.
Nevertheless in *my case* and in the past three years if it tends to be below 65, the scale is going down and when it's above 65 the scale tends to be going up. And around 65 there's not much scale movement. But around the low 60s or high 60s there definitely is noticeable movement and in the expected direction
Are there singular events that affect that? of course there are. This is a general observation with pretty good correlation.
How good of a correlation for me? Basically noticeable without data analysis and even causing surprise whenever events do not unfold as expected.0 -
Well you both know that I believe that there is some degree of adaptive thermogenesis that takes place.
In the data point section, I can pretty reliably predict whether my scale will be going up or down based on my Fitbit "resting" heart rate.
I use "resting" rate because it is obviously not your heart rate when you wake up and before you've gotten out of bed, which used to be the definition I knew, but some sort of proprietary measurement that they're using.
Nevertheless in *my case* and in the past three years if it tends to be below 65, the scale is going down and when it's above 65 the scale tends to be going up. And around 65 there's not much scale movement. But around the low 60s or high 60s there definitely is noticeable movement and in the expected direction
Are there singular events that affect that? of course there are. This is a general observation with pretty good correlation.
How good of a correlation for me? Basically noticeable without data analysis and even causing surprise whenever events do not unfold as expected.
Yes, I've noticed what seems to be a beat or few uptick from the tracker in all-day resting value that's the common pattern after a high-calorie day, too. (I wish I understood how they calculate "resting", though I haven't cared enough to research the question. It's a little weird, though.)0 -
Well you both know that I believe that there is some degree of adaptive thermogenesis that takes place.
In the data point section, I can pretty reliably predict whether my scale will be going up or down based on my Fitbit "resting" heart rate.
I use "resting" rate because it is obviously not your heart rate when you wake up and before you've gotten out of bed, which used to be the definition I knew, but some sort of proprietary measurement that they're using.
Nevertheless in *my case* and in the past three years if it tends to be below 65, the scale is going down and when it's above 65 the scale tends to be going up. And around 65 there's not much scale movement. But around the low 60s or high 60s there definitely is noticeable movement and in the expected direction
Are there singular events that affect that? of course there are. This is a general observation with pretty good correlation.
How good of a correlation for me? Basically noticeable without data analysis and even causing surprise whenever events do not unfold as expected.
Yes, I've noticed what seems to be a beat or few uptick from the tracker in all-day resting value that's the common pattern after a high-calorie day, too. (I wish I understood how they calculate "resting", though I haven't cared enough to research the question.) It's a little weird, though.
As an aside, at the end of my rapid weight loss, I was in the mid 50's based on recall. And even last end-of-summer/fall when I was at my lowest for the year I was in the high 50's,
Re: the food at the low point of the day for energy plus feelings of cold, etc. I don't doubt that it is a *combination* of both physiological and psychological components. And that we're more aware of them now.3 -
Well you both know that I believe that there is some degree of adaptive thermogenesis that takes place.
In the data point section, I can pretty reliably predict whether my scale will be going up or down based on my Fitbit "resting" heart rate.
I use "resting" rate because it is obviously not your heart rate when you wake up and before you've gotten out of bed, which used to be the definition I knew, but some sort of proprietary measurement that they're using.
Nevertheless in *my case* and in the past three years if it tends to be below 65, the scale is going down and when it's above 65 the scale tends to be going up. And around 65 there's not much scale movement. But around the low 60s or high 60s there definitely is noticeable movement and in the expected direction
Are there singular events that affect that? of course there are. This is a general observation with pretty good correlation.
How good of a correlation for me? Basically noticeable without data analysis and even causing surprise whenever events do not unfold as expected.
Yes, I've noticed what seems to be a beat or few uptick from the tracker in all-day resting value that's the common pattern after a high-calorie day, too. (I wish I understood how they calculate "resting", though I haven't cared enough to research the question.) It's a little weird, though.
As an aside, at the end of my rapid weight loss, I was in the mid 50's based on recall. And even last end-of-summer/fall when I was at my lowest for the year I was in the high 50's,
Re: the food at the low point of the day for energy plus feelings of cold, etc. I don't doubt that it is a *combination* of both physiological and psychological components. And that we're more aware of them now.
I see mine go up when the scale drops!1 -
Reverse adaptation!!!!?psychod787 wrote: »I see mine go up when the scale drops!
Must be a gerbil vs hamster thing!!!!!!!
<does your scale drop come after a huge amount of exercise? I remember someone clearing up complete forest lots by hand... I've heard a rumor--cause I would never do THAT!-that over-exercise causes an increase in resting heart rate signaling your body's desire for a rest day!>
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