Mind Blown!
Replies
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PAV, I've been incubating points from this thread more (how my brain works
), and your recent post (3/22, 9:27) provokes a comment that draws on that incubated inner-dialogue nonsense.
You mention cold at 3AM, and calories. I've been thinking about insulation, adaptive thermogenesis, and perception of being cold or hot, tired or energetic, in light of our earlier chat here about habits and homeostasis.
Specifically, I've been thinking about parts of (apparent) homeostasis that are (seemingly, subjectively) not about habits, but maybe more about wired-in physiology.
We were alluding earlier in the thread, I think, about adaptation over time, to new calorie levels, to being more aware of feeling full, and what not - how that evolves in maintenance.
I feel like in the last few months (as I go into year 3 of maintenance) I'm noticing more of the "normal" side effects of over- or (rarely ) under-eating. That is, I notice being hotter (sometimes hot flashes) and maybe more energetic sometimes after a day that was high-calorie (without a compensating high exercise day to justify it), plus maybe not feeling as hungry the next day - the kinds of things that the fitness bloggers who do "10,000 calorie challenge" days sometimes report. These feelings are new to me. (Historically, I can stuff myself every single day, and not feel noticeably different.) I may be deluding myself, or simply noticing now something that happened always - I don't know. If they're real, that's (I think) not a habit-based piece of homeostasis, but a physiological one.
The being cold thing - feeling that one should eat if cold - that seems related. I think you've spoken on other threads about how maybe losing too fast, to the point of extra adaptive thermogenesis, might lead people to feel cold all the time - that it isn't just about fat as insulation, when it's a pattern of being cold, rather than a singular event. (That's the flip side, of course, of feeling cold and therefore inclined to eat, and this latter "cold so want to eat" is also more momentary or situational.)
Also, the "eat more, feel energetic", "feel tired, want to eat" effects seem like other physiological pieces, maybe.
What's my point? I dunno. I'm kind of rambling.
I think it's wondering whether there's an awareness that can emerge, or maybe it's feelings that emerge, as one progresses in weight maintenance (maybe previously masked by the hormonal distortions inherent with obesity? maybe just noticed because of repeat experiences of over-eating being an occasional thing rather than a habit?). I don't know.
Also, I think part of my point is wanting to say that although I underscored habits in an earlier post, I think there are physiological effects (not exclusively habits) that do affect behavior and therefore homeostasis (believe science on my side in this, too) . . . but I don't think these constitute a non-negotiable "set point" or anything like that.4 -
PAV, I've been incubating points from this thread more (how my brain works ), and your recent post (3/22, 9:27) provokes a comment that draws on that incubated inner-dialogue nonsense.
You mention cold at 3AM, and calories. I've been thinking about insulation, adaptive thermogenesis, and perception of being cold or hot, tired or energetic, in light of our earlier chat here about habits and homeostasis.
Specifically, I've been thinking about parts of (apparent) homeostasis that are (seemingly, subjectively) not about habits, but maybe more about wired-in physiology.
We were alluding earlier in the thread, I think, about adaptation over time, to new calorie levels, to being more aware of feeling full, and what not - how that evolves in maintenance.
I feel like in the last few months (as I go into year 3 of maintenance) I'm noticing more of the "normal" side effects of over- or (rarely ) under-eating. That is, I notice being hotter (sometimes hot flashes) and maybe more energetic sometimes after a day that was high-calorie (without a compensating high exercise day to justify it), plus maybe not feeling as hungry the next day - the kinds of things that the fitness bloggers who do "10,000 calorie challenge" days sometimes report. These feelings are new to me. (Historically, I can stuff myself every single day, and not feel noticeably different.) I may be deluding myself, or simply noticing now something that happened always - I don't know. If they're real, that's (I think) not a habit-based piece of homeostasis, but a physiological one.
The being cold thing - feeling that one should eat if cold - that seems related. I think you've spoken on other threads about how maybe losing too fast, to the point of extra adaptive thermogenesis, might lead people to feel cold all the time - that it isn't just about fat as insulation, when it's a pattern of being cold, rather than a singular event. (That's the flip side, of course, of feeling cold and therefore inclined to eat, and this latter "cold so want to eat" is also more momentary or situational.)
Also, the "eat more, feel energetic", "feel tired, want to eat" effects seem like other physiological pieces, maybe.
What's my point? I dunno. I'm kind of rambling.
I think it's wondering whether there's an awareness that can emerge, or maybe it's feelings that emerge, as one progresses in weight maintenance (maybe previously masked by the hormonal distortions inherent with obesity? maybe just noticed because of repeat experiences of over-eating being an occasional thing rather than a habit?). I don't know.
Also, I think part of my point is wanting to say that although I underscored habits in an earlier post, I think there are physiological effects (not exclusively habits) that do affect behavior and therefore homeostasis (believe science on my side in this, too) . . . but I don't think these constitute a non-negotiable "set point" or anything like that.
Well, as far the idea of weight loss to quickly causes "extra" metabolic adaptation is one of my current interests. From what I have read, is that there the static theory. Basically, that once you have lost more than 20% of your body mass, that any adaptation can be explained by fat and lean mass loss. Then there is the spring board theory. That metabolism slow in concurrence with amount and rapidity of weight loss. The trouble with testing this idea, is controlling the people in the weight loss. I mean Libels labs only reduces the weight of participants by 10-20%. Even the Minnesota starvation study only 25%. I have a theory about the cold feeling some people, including myself have. Leptin has direct impact on the hypothalamus. Thus possibly lowering our body temps in an attempt to conserve energy. Just my ramblings of the gerbils in my head! Lol4 -
psychod787 wrote: »PAV, I've been incubating points from this thread more (how my brain works ), and your recent post (3/22, 9:27) provokes a comment that draws on that incubated inner-dialogue nonsense.
You mention cold at 3AM, and calories. I've been thinking about insulation, adaptive thermogenesis, and perception of being cold or hot, tired or energetic, in light of our earlier chat here about habits and homeostasis.
Specifically, I've been thinking about parts of (apparent) homeostasis that are (seemingly, subjectively) not about habits, but maybe more about wired-in physiology.
We were alluding earlier in the thread, I think, about adaptation over time, to new calorie levels, to being more aware of feeling full, and what not - how that evolves in maintenance.
I feel like in the last few months (as I go into year 3 of maintenance) I'm noticing more of the "normal" side effects of over- or (rarely ) under-eating. That is, I notice being hotter (sometimes hot flashes) and maybe more energetic sometimes after a day that was high-calorie (without a compensating high exercise day to justify it), plus maybe not feeling as hungry the next day - the kinds of things that the fitness bloggers who do "10,000 calorie challenge" days sometimes report. These feelings are new to me. (Historically, I can stuff myself every single day, and not feel noticeably different.) I may be deluding myself, or simply noticing now something that happened always - I don't know. If they're real, that's (I think) not a habit-based piece of homeostasis, but a physiological one.
The being cold thing - feeling that one should eat if cold - that seems related. I think you've spoken on other threads about how maybe losing too fast, to the point of extra adaptive thermogenesis, might lead people to feel cold all the time - that it isn't just about fat as insulation, when it's a pattern of being cold, rather than a singular event. (That's the flip side, of course, of feeling cold and therefore inclined to eat, and this latter "cold so want to eat" is also more momentary or situational.)
Also, the "eat more, feel energetic", "feel tired, want to eat" effects seem like other physiological pieces, maybe.
What's my point? I dunno. I'm kind of rambling.
I think it's wondering whether there's an awareness that can emerge, or maybe it's feelings that emerge, as one progresses in weight maintenance (maybe previously masked by the hormonal distortions inherent with obesity? maybe just noticed because of repeat experiences of over-eating being an occasional thing rather than a habit?). I don't know.
Also, I think part of my point is wanting to say that although I underscored habits in an earlier post, I think there are physiological effects (not exclusively habits) that do affect behavior and therefore homeostasis (believe science on my side in this, too) . . . but I don't think these constitute a non-negotiable "set point" or anything like that.
Well, as far the idea of weight loss to quickly causes "extra" metabolic adaptation is one of my current interests. From what I have read, is that there the static theory. Basically, that once you have lost more than 20% of your body mass, that any adaptation can be explained by fat and lean mass loss. Then there is the spring board theory. That metabolism slow in concurrence with amount and rapidity of weight loss. The trouble with testing this idea, is controlling the people in the weight loss. I mean Libels labs only reduces the weight of participants by 10-20%. Even the Minnesota starvation study only 25%. I have a theory about the cold feeling some people, including myself have. Leptin has direct impact on the hypothalamus. Thus possibly lowering our body temps in an attempt to conserve energy. Just my ramblings of the gerbils in my head! Lol
But interesting!
When I went off to college (many decades ago), I didn't gain the 'freshman 15'. Instead, I lost perhaps 30 pounds (hard to recall exactly). (It would've been hard to move less than I did during high school years, and possible though challenging to eat more.) I was cold that whole summer, something entirely new for me, then.
This round, much older of course, I lost down to a similar weight . . . but was not persistently cold, as any kind of a pattern, this time. I got more vigorous exercise this time than then ( which was not new exercise, just what I'd been doing for around a decade), but probably more volume of exercise back then (bike & walking transport on a large campus, physical job). It's hard to figure out nutrition differences, if there were any.
The weight I lost back then was a lower percentage of my body weight (about half as many pounds, +/-). I was a mere youth then (17-18) vs. this time (59-60).
I would've thought my "youthful metabolism" (using the term "metabolism" with the usual sloppiness here) would've made me more likely not to be cold then, and more likely to be so now. I don't have specific records, but I think I may've lost at least as fast, if not faster, this time (and it took more months in a deficit to do it, since more to lose).
It puzzles me a little.1 -
Well you both know that I believe that there is some degree of adaptive thermogenesis that takes place.
In the data point section, I can pretty reliably predict whether my scale will be going up or down based on my Fitbit "resting" heart rate.
I use "resting" rate because it is obviously not your heart rate when you wake up and before you've gotten out of bed, which used to be the definition I knew, but some sort of proprietary measurement that they're using.
Nevertheless in *my case* and in the past three years if it tends to be below 65, the scale is going down and when it's above 65 the scale tends to be going up. And around 65 there's not much scale movement. But around the low 60s or high 60s there definitely is noticeable movement and in the expected direction
Are there singular events that affect that? of course there are. This is a general observation with pretty good correlation.
How good of a correlation for me? Basically noticeable without data analysis and even causing surprise whenever events do not unfold as expected.0 -
Well you both know that I believe that there is some degree of adaptive thermogenesis that takes place.
In the data point section, I can pretty reliably predict whether my scale will be going up or down based on my Fitbit "resting" heart rate.
I use "resting" rate because it is obviously not your heart rate when you wake up and before you've gotten out of bed, which used to be the definition I knew, but some sort of proprietary measurement that they're using.
Nevertheless in *my case* and in the past three years if it tends to be below 65, the scale is going down and when it's above 65 the scale tends to be going up. And around 65 there's not much scale movement. But around the low 60s or high 60s there definitely is noticeable movement and in the expected direction
Are there singular events that affect that? of course there are. This is a general observation with pretty good correlation.
How good of a correlation for me? Basically noticeable without data analysis and even causing surprise whenever events do not unfold as expected.
Yes, I've noticed what seems to be a beat or few uptick from the tracker in all-day resting value that's the common pattern after a high-calorie day, too. (I wish I understood how they calculate "resting", though I haven't cared enough to research the question. It's a little weird, though.)0 -
Well you both know that I believe that there is some degree of adaptive thermogenesis that takes place.
In the data point section, I can pretty reliably predict whether my scale will be going up or down based on my Fitbit "resting" heart rate.
I use "resting" rate because it is obviously not your heart rate when you wake up and before you've gotten out of bed, which used to be the definition I knew, but some sort of proprietary measurement that they're using.
Nevertheless in *my case* and in the past three years if it tends to be below 65, the scale is going down and when it's above 65 the scale tends to be going up. And around 65 there's not much scale movement. But around the low 60s or high 60s there definitely is noticeable movement and in the expected direction
Are there singular events that affect that? of course there are. This is a general observation with pretty good correlation.
How good of a correlation for me? Basically noticeable without data analysis and even causing surprise whenever events do not unfold as expected.
Yes, I've noticed what seems to be a beat or few uptick from the tracker in all-day resting value that's the common pattern after a high-calorie day, too. (I wish I understood how they calculate "resting", though I haven't cared enough to research the question.) It's a little weird, though.
As an aside, at the end of my rapid weight loss, I was in the mid 50's based on recall. And even last end-of-summer/fall when I was at my lowest for the year I was in the high 50's,
Re: the food at the low point of the day for energy plus feelings of cold, etc. I don't doubt that it is a *combination* of both physiological and psychological components. And that we're more aware of them now.3 -
Well you both know that I believe that there is some degree of adaptive thermogenesis that takes place.
In the data point section, I can pretty reliably predict whether my scale will be going up or down based on my Fitbit "resting" heart rate.
I use "resting" rate because it is obviously not your heart rate when you wake up and before you've gotten out of bed, which used to be the definition I knew, but some sort of proprietary measurement that they're using.
Nevertheless in *my case* and in the past three years if it tends to be below 65, the scale is going down and when it's above 65 the scale tends to be going up. And around 65 there's not much scale movement. But around the low 60s or high 60s there definitely is noticeable movement and in the expected direction
Are there singular events that affect that? of course there are. This is a general observation with pretty good correlation.
How good of a correlation for me? Basically noticeable without data analysis and even causing surprise whenever events do not unfold as expected.
Yes, I've noticed what seems to be a beat or few uptick from the tracker in all-day resting value that's the common pattern after a high-calorie day, too. (I wish I understood how they calculate "resting", though I haven't cared enough to research the question.) It's a little weird, though.
As an aside, at the end of my rapid weight loss, I was in the mid 50's based on recall. And even last end-of-summer/fall when I was at my lowest for the year I was in the high 50's,
Re: the food at the low point of the day for energy plus feelings of cold, etc. I don't doubt that it is a *combination* of both physiological and psychological components. And that we're more aware of them now.
I see mine go up when the scale drops!1 -
Reverse adaptation!!!!?psychod787 wrote: »I see mine go up when the scale drops!
Must be a gerbil vs hamster thing!!!!!!!
<does your scale drop come after a huge amount of exercise? I remember someone clearing up complete forest lots by hand... I've heard a rumor--cause I would never do THAT!-that over-exercise causes an increase in resting heart rate signaling your body's desire for a rest day!>
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