Reasonable Alternatives to Squats and Deadlifts
Spadesheart
Posts: 479 Member
So I've been properly lifting for about 2.5 months. I've made pretty great strides I think in that time, everywhere but my chest but even that isn't so bad. My squat and deadlift since then have gone from the bar or small weights to 255*11 on squats and 245*6 on my deads for my best sets. Unfortunately my form is not great, especially for squats, and both of these exercises which are now at fairly heavy weight, ruin my lower back regularly. I've been really trying to strengthen core to help with this, but that's also a process. This causes me to take more rest days than when I started. I used to go 6 days a week, and I'm lucky if I hit 4 right now; it's been like this for the last 3ish weeks.
I realize both these lifts hit more muscle than pretty much anything else, and I don't necessarily want to drop them quite yet, but it honestly seems like the risk for injury is higher with these than with any of my other lifts. Other stuff makes me sore, but nothing else makes me feel like I have to stop. The first time I had some real lower back pain, I just shifted forward a little while squatting, it wasn't even that dramatic.
If I were to take these out of my rotation, what would be a reasonable facsimile to replace them? Or should I just keep them in and hit them with low weight and high reps?
Thanks for your help!
I realize both these lifts hit more muscle than pretty much anything else, and I don't necessarily want to drop them quite yet, but it honestly seems like the risk for injury is higher with these than with any of my other lifts. Other stuff makes me sore, but nothing else makes me feel like I have to stop. The first time I had some real lower back pain, I just shifted forward a little while squatting, it wasn't even that dramatic.
If I were to take these out of my rotation, what would be a reasonable facsimile to replace them? Or should I just keep them in and hit them with low weight and high reps?
Thanks for your help!
3
Replies
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Back off the weight until you get your form down.27
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Another vote for back off the weight, perfect the form8
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Focus on form obviously, but if it is impacting recovery and rest days, maybe one week squat on one day, and the next day deadlift on one day, then you can recover more. Otherwise just do a quad and hamstring/glute isolation exercise and you'll be fine. Plenty of alternatives but don't be too quick to chuck out squats and deads. Good luck!3
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So you are squatting and deadlifting 4 times per week? If so, that's probably too much volume.
Do you use a weightlifting belt for heavy reps?
Where did you learn the exercises? I recommend Starting Strength which has lots of free youtube instructional videos.
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billkansas wrote: »So you are squatting and deadlifting 4 times per week? If so, that's probably too much volume.
Do you use a weightlifting belt for heavy reps?
Where did you learn the exercises? I recommend Starting Strength which has lots of free youtube instructional videos.
Oh no, weight training 3 times a week (ideally 5) with 1 day of high resistance cardio. Deadlifts and squats once a week (ideally 2 as it was before)0 -
Agree wholeheartedly with the suggestion of dropping the load and improving form which likely will require flexibility work to improve your hip girdle flexibility and your upper body uprightness when squatting. Have you tried front squats?
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pierinifitness wrote: »Agree wholeheartedly with the suggestion of dropping the load and improving form which likely will require flexibility work to improve your hip girdle flexibility and your upper body uprightness when squatting. Have you tried front squats?
I have not. I was going to give box squats with lighter weight a try but dragging over the bench isn't possible at 2 of my gyms, and just really far at the other one. What would make front squats better?
I do lower back stretches and core work daily. I think it's helping with flexibility?1 -
billkansas wrote: »So you are squatting and deadlifting 4 times per week? If so, that's probably too much volume.
Do you use a weightlifting belt for heavy reps?
Where did you learn the exercises? I recommend Starting Strength which has lots of free youtube instructional videos.
I just started doing them man, and asked people in the gym who looked experienced.
I don't have a belt. Would that make a huge difference?1 -
It really sounds like you need to decrease the weight and just focus on form for a while. I had a lot of trouble with my lower back, and then piriformis, and basically had to reteach myself deadlifts.2
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Yes, get a belt. I own two (3" deadlifting, 4" for squat). I start putting my belt on for squats/deadlifts of 225 or more. In fact, I bought my wider belt after a back scare from some heavy squats a year or two ago.
Paused squats (2 second pause at bottom) and slow cadence "3-0-3-0" squats (3 seconds down, 3 seconds up) both helped me improve my form. They provide more time to feel what you are doing. I would recommend you take some videos with your phone to see if how your form looks and tweak/adjust as needed. I'd like to go to a Starting Strength or Barbell Medicine seminar someday, but basically until I do that someday I use internet/book resources to "check" my form.
Don't quit the squat and deadlift! It sounds like you're well on your way. Don't be one of those guys at the gym dinking with dumbells and cable exercises all day but can't perform a decent heavy squat.3 -
Doing Goblet squats with a dumbbell or kettlebell is one way to get squat action and work on form, particularly upper body uprightness.2
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billkansas wrote: »Yes, get a belt. I own two (3" deadlifting, 4" for squat). I start putting my belt on for squats/deadlifts of 225 or more. In fact, I bought my wider belt after a back scare from some heavy squats a year or two ago.
Paused squats (2 second pause at bottom) and slow cadence "3-0-3-0" squats (3 seconds down, 3 seconds up) both helped me improve my form. They provide more time to feel what you are doing. I would recommend you take some videos with your phone to see if how your form looks and tweak/adjust as needed. I'd like to go to a Starting Strength or Barbell Medicine seminar someday, but basically until I do that someday I use internet/book resources to "check" my form.
Don't quit the squat and deadlift! It sounds like you're well on your way. Don't be one of those guys at the gym dinking with dumbells and cable exercises all day but can't perform a decent heavy squat.
Alright then, I'll just do light this week, work on form and order a belt. They're more reasonable than I thought they'd be. Leather one is 30 CAD off Amazon, nylon ones off eBay for 15 CAD.
For the belts, is the thicker the better? They have a 4 and 6 inch one.0 -
Mine may be 4" and 6". I use 4" to deadlift and 6" for squat. This is the approach for most as I understand.0
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Spadesheart wrote: »billkansas wrote: »Yes, get a belt. I own two (3" deadlifting, 4" for squat). I start putting my belt on for squats/deadlifts of 225 or more. In fact, I bought my wider belt after a back scare from some heavy squats a year or two ago.
Paused squats (2 second pause at bottom) and slow cadence "3-0-3-0" squats (3 seconds down, 3 seconds up) both helped me improve my form. They provide more time to feel what you are doing. I would recommend you take some videos with your phone to see if how your form looks and tweak/adjust as needed. I'd like to go to a Starting Strength or Barbell Medicine seminar someday, but basically until I do that someday I use internet/book resources to "check" my form.
Don't quit the squat and deadlift! It sounds like you're well on your way. Don't be one of those guys at the gym dinking with dumbells and cable exercises all day but can't perform a decent heavy squat.
Alright then, I'll just do light this week, work on form and order a belt. They're more reasonable than I thought they'd be. Leather one is 30 CAD off Amazon, nylon ones off eBay for 15 CAD.
For the belts, is the thicker the better? They have a 4 and 6 inch one.
No. It depends on the length of your torso.2 -
This.quiksylver296 wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »billkansas wrote: »Yes, get a belt. I own two (3" deadlifting, 4" for squat). I start putting my belt on for squats/deadlifts of 225 or more. In fact, I bought my wider belt after a back scare from some heavy squats a year or two ago.
Paused squats (2 second pause at bottom) and slow cadence "3-0-3-0" squats (3 seconds down, 3 seconds up) both helped me improve my form. They provide more time to feel what you are doing. I would recommend you take some videos with your phone to see if how your form looks and tweak/adjust as needed. I'd like to go to a Starting Strength or Barbell Medicine seminar someday, but basically until I do that someday I use internet/book resources to "check" my form.
Don't quit the squat and deadlift! It sounds like you're well on your way. Don't be one of those guys at the gym dinking with dumbells and cable exercises all day but can't perform a decent heavy squat.
Alright then, I'll just do light this week, work on form and order a belt. They're more reasonable than I thought they'd be. Leather one is 30 CAD off Amazon, nylon ones off eBay for 15 CAD.
For the belts, is the thicker the better? They have a 4 and 6 inch one.
No. It depends on the length of your torso.
I’m short so I actually use a benching belt for my squats and dls, and I have a tapered belt for my Olympic weightlifting. Has your gym got any you can try for size and comfort? A decent belt is a worthwhile investment but it can also be an expensive mistake if you get one you hate.
1 -
claireychn074 wrote: »
This.quiksylver296 wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »billkansas wrote: »Yes, get a belt. I own two (3" deadlifting, 4" for squat). I start putting my belt on for squats/deadlifts of 225 or more. In fact, I bought my wider belt after a back scare from some heavy squats a year or two ago.
Paused squats (2 second pause at bottom) and slow cadence "3-0-3-0" squats (3 seconds down, 3 seconds up) both helped me improve my form. They provide more time to feel what you are doing. I would recommend you take some videos with your phone to see if how your form looks and tweak/adjust as needed. I'd like to go to a Starting Strength or Barbell Medicine seminar someday, but basically until I do that someday I use internet/book resources to "check" my form.
Don't quit the squat and deadlift! It sounds like you're well on your way. Don't be one of those guys at the gym dinking with dumbells and cable exercises all day but can't perform a decent heavy squat.
Alright then, I'll just do light this week, work on form and order a belt. They're more reasonable than I thought they'd be. Leather one is 30 CAD off Amazon, nylon ones off eBay for 15 CAD.
For the belts, is the thicker the better? They have a 4 and 6 inch one.
No. It depends on the length of your torso.
I’m short so I actually use a benching belt for my squats and dls, and I have a tapered belt for my Olympic weightlifting. Has your gym got any you can try for size and comfort? A decent belt is a worthwhile investment but it can also be an expensive mistake if you get one you hate.
Yeah I'm just going to order a cheapie off of eBay. They have a leather one for 20 CAD with free shipping.
I'm guessing 6 inch for me then. I'm 6'3" so I'm guessing the larger belt would do me good.0 -
Jeff Nippard has a fairly recent YouTube video on squat technique. I highly recommend checking it out.0
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Spadesheart wrote: »claireychn074 wrote: »
This.quiksylver296 wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »billkansas wrote: »Yes, get a belt. I own two (3" deadlifting, 4" for squat). I start putting my belt on for squats/deadlifts of 225 or more. In fact, I bought my wider belt after a back scare from some heavy squats a year or two ago.
Paused squats (2 second pause at bottom) and slow cadence "3-0-3-0" squats (3 seconds down, 3 seconds up) both helped me improve my form. They provide more time to feel what you are doing. I would recommend you take some videos with your phone to see if how your form looks and tweak/adjust as needed. I'd like to go to a Starting Strength or Barbell Medicine seminar someday, but basically until I do that someday I use internet/book resources to "check" my form.
Don't quit the squat and deadlift! It sounds like you're well on your way. Don't be one of those guys at the gym dinking with dumbells and cable exercises all day but can't perform a decent heavy squat.
Alright then, I'll just do light this week, work on form and order a belt. They're more reasonable than I thought they'd be. Leather one is 30 CAD off Amazon, nylon ones off eBay for 15 CAD.
For the belts, is the thicker the better? They have a 4 and 6 inch one.
No. It depends on the length of your torso.
I’m short so I actually use a benching belt for my squats and dls, and I have a tapered belt for my Olympic weightlifting. Has your gym got any you can try for size and comfort? A decent belt is a worthwhile investment but it can also be an expensive mistake if you get one you hate.
Yeah I'm just going to order a cheapie off of eBay. They have a leather one for 20 CAD with free shipping.
I'm guessing 6 inch for me then. I'm 6'3" so I'm guessing the larger belt would do me good.
Yeah I’m only 5’3 so you’ve got an extra foot of body for the belt to fit! 🤣0 -
I prefer the "low bar squat" as detailed in Starting Strength. I'm 6'-2" and as a tall guy think this method improved my ability to squat immeasurably.1
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More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.8 -
More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.0 -
Spadesheart wrote: »More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.
Here is the problem.
Just because you go lighter doesn't mean you are putting less stress on your body or your lower back specifically.
You can achieve any degree of stressor at any rep range or intensity if pushed to a certain level.
You need to practice proper "load management".
When you randomly add non useful stress to your body, you are going in the wrong direction of progress.
Not only are you going in the wrong direction, it increases your injury risk.
What do you actually think trying to beat a estimated 1RM is going to do long term?5 -
Spadesheart wrote: »More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.
Here is the problem.
Just because you go lighter doesn't mean you are putting less stress on your body or your lower back specifically.
You can achieve any degree of stressor at any rep range or intensity if pushed to a certain level.
You need to practice proper "load management".
When you randomly add non useful stress to your body, you are going in the wrong direction of progress.
Not only are you going in the wrong direction, it increases your injury risk.
What do you actually think trying to beat a estimated 1RM is going to do long term?
What are other viable ways to guage progress?
I just need something to push myself with. If trying to beat my best set is not healthy, than I'd happily do something else, I just need to know what that is haha.
Again I'm pretty new to this. Initially I was just trying to make sure I didn't lose anything on the way down to goal, but then I started unexpectedly building muscle, so I just want to figure out how to keep that momentum in a healthy balance.1 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.
Here is the problem.
Just because you go lighter doesn't mean you are putting less stress on your body or your lower back specifically.
You can achieve any degree of stressor at any rep range or intensity if pushed to a certain level.
You need to practice proper "load management".
When you randomly add non useful stress to your body, you are going in the wrong direction of progress.
Not only are you going in the wrong direction, it increases your injury risk.
What do you actually think trying to beat a estimated 1RM is going to do long term?
What are other viable ways to guage progress?
I just need something to push myself with. If trying to beat my best set is not healthy, than I'd happily do something else, I just need to know what that is haha.
Again I'm pretty new to this. Initially I was just trying to make sure I didn't lose anything on the way down to goal, but then I started unexpectedly building muscle, so I just want to figure out how to keep that momentum in a healthy balance.
What progress is the question. Insert your goal here.
If you are newer to lifting, you will almost always progress in strength because the novelty of lifting.
Just because you lifted more one day than another doesn't equate any progress for hypertrophy. There are too many varibles and training is way too complicated to explain in a reply.
I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?2 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.
Here is the problem.
Just because you go lighter doesn't mean you are putting less stress on your body or your lower back specifically.
You can achieve any degree of stressor at any rep range or intensity if pushed to a certain level.
You need to practice proper "load management".
When you randomly add non useful stress to your body, you are going in the wrong direction of progress.
Not only are you going in the wrong direction, it increases your injury risk.
What do you actually think trying to beat a estimated 1RM is going to do long term?
What are other viable ways to guage progress?
I just need something to push myself with. If trying to beat my best set is not healthy, than I'd happily do something else, I just need to know what that is haha.
Again I'm pretty new to this. Initially I was just trying to make sure I didn't lose anything on the way down to goal, but then I started unexpectedly building muscle, so I just want to figure out how to keep that momentum in a healthy balance.
What progress is the question. Insert your goal here.
If you are newer to lifting, you will almost always progress in strength because the novelty of lifting.
Just because you lifted more one day than another doesn't equate any progress for hypertrophy. There are too many varibles and training is way too complicated to explain in a reply.
I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
It's just a 4 day rotation as often as I can get through it. Used to be 6 days a week, now 4 due to extra rest needed.
Chest, bicep and core
Back, biceps and core
Legs, shoulders and core
High resistance cardio (usually 65 minutes max resistance on an elliptical style machine)
Exercises are just pushed as far as I can take them. There are no set reps, usually I just try my best to at least have one set that beats my 1 rep max as calculated by my logging app, and I just try my best in general.
This is along with daily bodyweight core exercises like planks, and stretches if I'm excessively sore.
I suppose strength and hypertrophy are the goals, while losing weight which has been largely successful. I've been doing all three in tandem so far, but I could understand reaching hard limits due to weaker parts. I've been doing the extra core work to hopefully help with the lower back. It hasn't quite been successful haha.
1 -
I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
If you're not going to follow this advice now, remember it for later.
Ill be more than happy to answer your questions once you begin a structured program that involves auto regulation.
5 -
I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
If you're not going to follow this advice now, remember it for later.
Ill be more than happy to answer your questions once you begin a structured program that involves auto regulation.
Do you have a suggestion?1 -
Spadesheart wrote: »I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
If you're not going to follow this advice now, remember it for later.
Ill be more than happy to answer your questions once you begin a structured program that involves auto regulation.
Do you have a suggestion?
The Bridge 3.0 if you have a couple dollars
The Bridge 1.0 if you are broke.0 -
Encourage OP to video record squat and deadlift if not already being done. I regularly did this when training in the Olympic lifts a decade plus ago. Lot to learn viewing, particularly in slow motion.1
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Spadesheart wrote: »I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
If you're not going to follow this advice now, remember it for later.
Ill be more than happy to answer your questions once you begin a structured program that involves auto regulation.
Do you have a suggestion?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
There are also a ton of other programs in here.1
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