Reasonable Alternatives to Squats and Deadlifts
Replies
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More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.0 -
Spadesheart wrote: »More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.
Here is the problem.
Just because you go lighter doesn't mean you are putting less stress on your body or your lower back specifically.
You can achieve any degree of stressor at any rep range or intensity if pushed to a certain level.
You need to practice proper "load management".
When you randomly add non useful stress to your body, you are going in the wrong direction of progress.
Not only are you going in the wrong direction, it increases your injury risk.
What do you actually think trying to beat a estimated 1RM is going to do long term?5 -
Spadesheart wrote: »More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.
Here is the problem.
Just because you go lighter doesn't mean you are putting less stress on your body or your lower back specifically.
You can achieve any degree of stressor at any rep range or intensity if pushed to a certain level.
You need to practice proper "load management".
When you randomly add non useful stress to your body, you are going in the wrong direction of progress.
Not only are you going in the wrong direction, it increases your injury risk.
What do you actually think trying to beat a estimated 1RM is going to do long term?
What are other viable ways to guage progress?
I just need something to push myself with. If trying to beat my best set is not healthy, than I'd happily do something else, I just need to know what that is haha.
Again I'm pretty new to this. Initially I was just trying to make sure I didn't lose anything on the way down to goal, but then I started unexpectedly building muscle, so I just want to figure out how to keep that momentum in a healthy balance.1 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.
Here is the problem.
Just because you go lighter doesn't mean you are putting less stress on your body or your lower back specifically.
You can achieve any degree of stressor at any rep range or intensity if pushed to a certain level.
You need to practice proper "load management".
When you randomly add non useful stress to your body, you are going in the wrong direction of progress.
Not only are you going in the wrong direction, it increases your injury risk.
What do you actually think trying to beat a estimated 1RM is going to do long term?
What are other viable ways to guage progress?
I just need something to push myself with. If trying to beat my best set is not healthy, than I'd happily do something else, I just need to know what that is haha.
Again I'm pretty new to this. Initially I was just trying to make sure I didn't lose anything on the way down to goal, but then I started unexpectedly building muscle, so I just want to figure out how to keep that momentum in a healthy balance.
What progress is the question. Insert your goal here.
If you are newer to lifting, you will almost always progress in strength because the novelty of lifting.
Just because you lifted more one day than another doesn't equate any progress for hypertrophy. There are too many varibles and training is way too complicated to explain in a reply.
I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?2 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.
Here is the problem.
Just because you go lighter doesn't mean you are putting less stress on your body or your lower back specifically.
You can achieve any degree of stressor at any rep range or intensity if pushed to a certain level.
You need to practice proper "load management".
When you randomly add non useful stress to your body, you are going in the wrong direction of progress.
Not only are you going in the wrong direction, it increases your injury risk.
What do you actually think trying to beat a estimated 1RM is going to do long term?
What are other viable ways to guage progress?
I just need something to push myself with. If trying to beat my best set is not healthy, than I'd happily do something else, I just need to know what that is haha.
Again I'm pretty new to this. Initially I was just trying to make sure I didn't lose anything on the way down to goal, but then I started unexpectedly building muscle, so I just want to figure out how to keep that momentum in a healthy balance.
What progress is the question. Insert your goal here.
If you are newer to lifting, you will almost always progress in strength because the novelty of lifting.
Just because you lifted more one day than another doesn't equate any progress for hypertrophy. There are too many varibles and training is way too complicated to explain in a reply.
I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
It's just a 4 day rotation as often as I can get through it. Used to be 6 days a week, now 4 due to extra rest needed.
Chest, bicep and core
Back, biceps and core
Legs, shoulders and core
High resistance cardio (usually 65 minutes max resistance on an elliptical style machine)
Exercises are just pushed as far as I can take them. There are no set reps, usually I just try my best to at least have one set that beats my 1 rep max as calculated by my logging app, and I just try my best in general.
This is along with daily bodyweight core exercises like planks, and stretches if I'm excessively sore.
I suppose strength and hypertrophy are the goals, while losing weight which has been largely successful. I've been doing all three in tandem so far, but I could understand reaching hard limits due to weaker parts. I've been doing the extra core work to hopefully help with the lower back. It hasn't quite been successful haha.
1 -
I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
If you're not going to follow this advice now, remember it for later.
Ill be more than happy to answer your questions once you begin a structured program that involves auto regulation.
5 -
I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
If you're not going to follow this advice now, remember it for later.
Ill be more than happy to answer your questions once you begin a structured program that involves auto regulation.
Do you have a suggestion?1 -
Spadesheart wrote: »I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
If you're not going to follow this advice now, remember it for later.
Ill be more than happy to answer your questions once you begin a structured program that involves auto regulation.
Do you have a suggestion?
The Bridge 3.0 if you have a couple dollars
The Bridge 1.0 if you are broke.0 -
Encourage OP to video record squat and deadlift if not already being done. I regularly did this when training in the Olympic lifts a decade plus ago. Lot to learn viewing, particularly in slow motion.1
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Spadesheart wrote: »I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
If you're not going to follow this advice now, remember it for later.
Ill be more than happy to answer your questions once you begin a structured program that involves auto regulation.
Do you have a suggestion?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
There are also a ton of other programs in here.1 -
There are no alternatives to squats and deadlifts.
They are bodybuilding fundamentals.
Sorry.7 -
Spadesheart wrote: »I will state if your goal is hypertrophy, then
My recommendation is to follow a written hypertrophy program that has auto regulation built in.
Are you running a program of any sorts currently?
If you're not going to follow this advice now, remember it for later.
Ill be more than happy to answer your questions once you begin a structured program that involves auto regulation.
Do you have a suggestion?
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
There are also a ton of other programs in here.
Okay, sweet. That AWorkoutRoutine Muscle Building Workout Routine is essentially what I'm doing now with workouts moved around a little bit and less overall intensity; exercises are mostly all the same, and exercises progression is more metered rather than haphazard. I usually just add weight and try to beat my 1 rep max. There are a couple new exercises, and a few less of my old ones, but at least I wouldn't have to throw out everything. There's also a lot less core work, but I don't imagine it would be an issue to incorporate a little bit more core every day. Probably can keep my high resistance cardio day too.
This will be a less challenging to switch to for now I think.1 -
GoldenAgeAdmirer wrote: »There are no alternatives to squats and deadlifts.
They are bodybuilding fundamentals.
Sorry.
That is incorrect. There are alternatives that are proven to be just as optimal.
Where the problem lies if any is if lets say a powerlifter wants to be better at squats then he should perform and practice squats. Not leg press.
One can produce hypertrophy and/or strength with alternative exercises. The effectiveness always have to be discussed in the context of the desired training goal.6 -
GoldenAgeAdmirer wrote: »There are no alternatives to squats and deadlifts.
They are bodybuilding fundamentals.
Sorry.
That is incorrect. There are alternatives that are proven to be just as optimal.
Where the problem lies if any is if lets say a powerlifter wants to be better at squats then he should perform and practice squats. Not leg press.
One can produce hypertrophy and/or strength with alternative exercises. The effectiveness always have to be discussed in the context of the desired training goal.
When you say there are alternatives to squats and deadlifts, I'm assuming you are referring to these moves using a barbell? To my understanding squatting and hinging (deadlifting) are basic human movement patterns that are used in activities of daily living and people should be training the pattern.1 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »GoldenAgeAdmirer wrote: »There are no alternatives to squats and deadlifts.
They are bodybuilding fundamentals.
Sorry.
That is incorrect. There are alternatives that are proven to be just as optimal.
Where the problem lies if any is if lets say a powerlifter wants to be better at squats then he should perform and practice squats. Not leg press.
One can produce hypertrophy and/or strength with alternative exercises. The effectiveness always have to be discussed in the context of the desired training goal.
When you say there are alternatives to squats and deadlifts, I'm assuming you are referring to these moves using a barbell? To my understanding squatting and hinging (deadlifting) are basic human movement patterns that are used in activities of daily living and people should be training the pattern.
I think you're missing my point.
Deaflift and squats are awesome. As a competitive power lifter I'm quite bias to that style of training or use of barbells. I feel it can be extremely useful for all ages. For example I currently have anywhere from age 14-84 year old lifters who pull deads.
That being said, there are other means to train that with the appropriate dosage within good programming can be just as useful to someone who never plans to complete at squats and/or deadlifts or has has a goal of hypertrophy response.
There are many many ways to perform a hinge as well as perform a squat type pattern without the use of a barbell that is very useful to a variety of goals. To dismiss all other lifts without context of desired goal is close minded.8 -
[Theoldguy1 wrote: »GoldenAgeAdmirer wrote: »There are no alternatives to squats and deadlifts.
They are bodybuilding fundamentals.
Sorry.
That is incorrect. There are alternatives that are proven to be just as optimal.
Where the problem lies if any is if lets say a powerlifter wants to be better at squats then he should perform and practice squats. Not leg press.
One can produce hypertrophy and/or strength with alternative exercises. The effectiveness always have to be discussed in the context of the desired training goal.
When you say there are alternatives to squats and deadlifts, I'm assuming you are referring to these moves using a barbell? To my understanding squatting and hinging (deadlifting) are basic human movement patterns that are used in activities of daily living and people should be training the pattern.
I think you're missing my point.
Deaflift and squats are awesome. As a competitive power lifter I'm quite bias to that style of training or use of barbells. I feel it can be extremely useful for all ages. For example I currently have anywhere from age 14-84 year old lifters who pull deads.
That being said, there are other means to train that with the appropriate dosage within good programming can be just as useful to someone who never plans to complete at squats and/or deadlifts or has has a goal of hypertrophy response.
There are many many ways to perform a hinge as well as perform a squat type pattern without the use of a barbell that is very useful to a variety of goals. To dismiss all other lifts without context of desired goal is close minded.
I think you may have misunderstood my comment and I believe we are in agreement. My point was that one can train the squat/hinge movements in a variety of ways other that a barbell.1 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »[Theoldguy1 wrote: »GoldenAgeAdmirer wrote: »There are no alternatives to squats and deadlifts.
They are bodybuilding fundamentals.
Sorry.
That is incorrect. There are alternatives that are proven to be just as optimal.
Where the problem lies if any is if lets say a powerlifter wants to be better at squats then he should perform and practice squats. Not leg press.
One can produce hypertrophy and/or strength with alternative exercises. The effectiveness always have to be discussed in the context of the desired training goal.
When you say there are alternatives to squats and deadlifts, I'm assuming you are referring to these moves using a barbell? To my understanding squatting and hinging (deadlifting) are basic human movement patterns that are used in activities of daily living and people should be training the pattern.
I think you're missing my point.
Deaflift and squats are awesome. As a competitive power lifter I'm quite bias to that style of training or use of barbells. I feel it can be extremely useful for all ages. For example I currently have anywhere from age 14-84 year old lifters who pull deads.
That being said, there are other means to train that with the appropriate dosage within good programming can be just as useful to someone who never plans to complete at squats and/or deadlifts or has has a goal of hypertrophy response.
There are many many ways to perform a hinge as well as perform a squat type pattern without the use of a barbell that is very useful to a variety of goals. To dismiss all other lifts without context of desired goal is close minded.
I think you may have misunderstood my comment and I believe we are in agreement. My point was that one can train the squat/hinge movements in a variety of ways other that a barbell.
I see. I concur with this.2 -
Cool, went to the doc, he checked out my back and it's just muscular he believes, but thinks I should rest it for a couple weeks. So actually, until then he said no squats, deadlifts, or anything that cause lower back pain.
So at least for a couple weeks I'm back to the original question. Does anyone have any reasonable Alternatives to squats and deadlifts that I can do for a couple weeks that won't engage that area so I can let it heal?0 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Spadesheart wrote: »More than likely its not your form but the load on the bar. You can try to perfect form all you want but once you put too much weight, your weak spots are exposed.
Their is a huge misconception that form above everything when you start lifting. Where this holds some merit, not nearly what is taught on YouTube and social media.
The fact is with repetitions at the appropriate weight we experience practice and strengthen our body.
If your body is grinding out reps with only one in the tank repetitively, then you should take about 5% or a little more off the bar depending on the amount if sets or rep scheme that is being dosed.
I literally can get 99.9% of any lifter either squatting or deadlifting within five minutes with "good form" e.g. tight bracing, back extension, full body activation with bar balanced over midfoot, at depth(squat) etc...
This is done with proper load management on the bar and within your volume. I can't express this enough. Put the correct amount of weight on the bar and progress accordingly to well written program.
I tried yesterday to go lighter, but I'm an idiot and still tried to beat my calculated 1RM. Ended up doing 155 to 38.
There is lower back pain today, but I do think that it's more muscle soreness, and less you're destroying your spine.
Here is the problem.
Just because you go lighter doesn't mean you are putting less stress on your body or your lower back specifically.
You can achieve any degree of stressor at any rep range or intensity if pushed to a certain level.
You need to practice proper "load management".
When you randomly add non useful stress to your body, you are going in the wrong direction of progress.
Not only are you going in the wrong direction, it increases your injury risk.
What do you actually think trying to beat a estimated 1RM is going to do long term?
What are other viable ways to guage progress?
I just need something to push myself with. If trying to beat my best set is not healthy, than I'd happily do something else, I just need to know what that is haha.
Again I'm pretty new to this. Initially I was just trying to make sure I didn't lose anything on the way down to goal, but then I started unexpectedly building muscle, so I just want to figure out how to keep that momentum in a healthy balance.
In your specific case you could gauge progress by squatting and deadlifting without pain.
Dropping the weight and doing 38 reps in a way that causes you pain isn't progress. Learn the fundamentals correctly and start over without hurting yourself. Then worry about progress.1 -
Spadesheart wrote: »Cool, went to the doc, he checked out my back and it's just muscular he believes, but thinks I should rest it for a couple weeks. So actually, until then he said no squats, deadlifts, or anything that cause lower back pain.
So at least for a couple weeks I'm back to the original question. Does anyone have any reasonable Alternatives to squats and deadlifts that I can do for a couple weeks that won't engage that area so I can let it heal?
Quads: leg extensions
Hamstrings: leg curls
Back: chest-supported rows
Comment on your general approach to training: current research strongly suggests that taking sets to failure or even near failure is suboptimal. A better approach is leaving reps in the tank (up to about 4). This is why @Chieflrg was telling you to use a program that involves autoregulation like the Bridge programs. Taking sets to failure is far more fatiguing with not the best tradeoff in terms of hypertrophy. Also risk of injury increases because technique breaks down near and at failure. Make sense?3
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