I'm not really sure what's happening
Replies
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I hear where people are coming from with the overtraining idea, and it's a great thing to consider. I do worry a little when I see people told (at varying amounts of exercise) that they're "working out too much" or "doing too much cardio" or that sort of thing. Overtraining is very individual, very context-specific. What would be overtraining for me if repeated for days (let alone weeks) would be a big sequence of rest days for national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport.
I think that overtraining is a good thing to consider in OP's scenario, and there are markers (like an increase in resting heart rate) that sometimes occur when overtraining, that are useful inputs. Whether overtraining in a technical sense or not, when facing persistent fatigue, a rest/recovery break could be a good thing to try purely on speculation; If it's not excessively long (to the point of materially detraining), there's no real downside.
I'd point out, though, that OP says "I've been working out consistently for years and I'm pretty fit." While that doesn't mean her current routine is definitively no problem, it does imply that her threshold for overtraining (i.e., what constitutes "a lot of exercise" or "too much exercise") will differ from what it would be for those among us who've more recently become active.
My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.
Moreover (of course), the context can make a normal routine have an overtraining effect for an experienced person, so the stress, sleep limitations, possible undiagnosed nutrition issues, etc., can contribute to an overtraining outcome.
Apologies for the digression.
I think most of us who are commenting have also been working out at fairly intense levels for a while. I’ve been running for over four years now. Under-recovery isn’t just a newbie thing. In fact, the experiences people are sharing seem just the opposite—those of us who are very active and have been very active for a while might underestimate the impact of adding additional low intensity exercise.
I think it’s also the case that lack of adequate recovery can take a while to catch up to you, and several of us have trouble figuring out that it’s what we’re experiencing, so we just keep doing what we’ve been doing and potentially make the problem worse.
OP is telling us that her “rest day” includes an exercise class and 10k-20k steps, which might not constitute enough actual rest. That doesn’t mean it’s the definite or only cause of OP’s symptoms, but I think it’s worth looking into.
I completely agree.
And of course under-recovery isn't just something that happens to new exercisers. It can happen to anyone, at any level, including experienced elites.
It's important for those new to exercise to realize it can happen at what seem like abstractly non-extreme exercise levels (levels that they see more-trained friends handling fine). That was my point, there's no objective universal objective definition of "too much" exercise.
OP may be overtraining, absolutely: It's something to consider, 100%.1 -
I hear where people are coming from with the overtraining idea, and it's a great thing to consider. I do worry a little when I see people told (at varying amounts of exercise) that they're "working out too much" or "doing too much cardio" or that sort of thing. Overtraining is very individual, very context-specific. What would be overtraining for me if repeated for days (let alone weeks) would be a big sequence of rest days for national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport.
I think that overtraining is a good thing to consider in OP's scenario, and there are markers (like an increase in resting heart rate) that sometimes occur when overtraining, that are useful inputs. Whether overtraining in a technical sense or not, when facing persistent fatigue, a rest/recovery break could be a good thing to try purely on speculation; If it's not excessively long (to the point of materially detraining), there's no real downside.
I'd point out, though, that OP says "I've been working out consistently for years and I'm pretty fit." While that doesn't mean her current routine is definitively no problem, it does imply that her threshold for overtraining (i.e., what constitutes "a lot of exercise" or "too much exercise") will differ from what it would be for those among us who've more recently become active.
My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.
Moreover (of course), the context can make a normal routine have an overtraining effect for an experienced person, so the stress, sleep limitations, possible undiagnosed nutrition issues, etc., can contribute to an overtraining outcome.
Apologies for the digression.
I think most of us who are commenting have also been working out at fairly intense levels for a while. I’ve been running for over four years now. Under-recovery isn’t just a newbie thing. In fact, the experiences people are sharing seem just the opposite—those of us who are very active and have been very active for a while might underestimate the impact of adding additional low intensity exercise.
I think it’s also the case that lack of adequate recovery can take a while to catch up to you, and several of us have trouble figuring out that it’s what we’re experiencing, so we just keep doing what we’ve been doing and potentially make the problem worse.
OP is telling us that her “rest day” includes an exercise class and 10k-20k steps, which might not constitute enough actual rest. That doesn’t mean it’s the definite or only cause of OP’s symptoms, but I think it’s worth looking into.
I completely agree.
And of course under-recovery isn't just something that happens to new exercisers. It can happen to anyone, at any level, including experienced elites.
It's important for those new to exercise to realize it can happen at what seem like abstractly non-extreme exercise levels (levels that they see more-trained friends handling fine). That was my point, there's no objective universal objective definition of "too much" exercise.
OP may be overtraining, absolutely: It's something to consider, 100%.
Yes, definitely.
(Not arguing with you at all—I appreciate your insight, and I know sometimes message board posts can come across as defensive or argumentive.)0 -
Maxematics wrote: »I just want to preface this post by saying that I've been around these forums for a while and have always found them helpful. I never thought I'd post something like this and I feel kind of embarrassed about it but I'm hoping that there are people who have had a similar issue and can maybe give me advice.
I started MFP in June 2015 at 139 pounds; I'm 5'3", 34 years old. I lost 20 pounds within the first 2.5 months and eventually got down to 107ish by July 2016. Since then it's been up and down; whenever my weight gets that low I end up rebounding to 115. The worst time was when I hit 125 in December 2017. Sidenote that there is nothing wrong with being 125 pounds, it's just not the right weight for me. I used to do IF a few years ago and just really didn't see the benefits, eventually lost my period, then ended up being super hungry all the time and gaining back some weight. It took like a year to bounce back from that.
This leads me to now. I got down to 108 pounds around a month ago and then my period was late but eventually came and only lasted a few days. Also there is zero chance of pregnancy in case anyone thinks to ask. Since then I've been battling excessive hunger. I've stopped trying to fight it and just let my body do its thing; some days I eat more and some I eat less. I figure that maybe the very low end of the BMI range isn't my happy place. I wasn't trying to lose weight either as my goal is maintenance it just seems to happen as I lose my appetite due to work stress, etc. I've stopped weighing in daily because post binge weights exacerbate my anxiety and guilt. I've stopped tracking food for the same reasons as I was becoming obsessive. I felt like I just needed to hit reset.
At first I felt better but now I feel like it's getting worse. Today was the worst of all as I've just finished eating ~1500 calories on top of what had to be a minimum of 2500 for the day already. I also feel zero discomfort or fullness and like I could even eat more food.
To give more background, I'm pretty active. I workout 45 minutes to an hour six days per week. I do resistance training four times per week and do straight cardio two times per week. My heart rate is high during resistance training; I'm not doing super heavy low rep sets with breaks. I also usually get 12 to 20K steps on my Fitbit with an estimated TDEE that's usually between 2000 and 2500. I'm fairly muscular and lean aside from my stomach these days due to water weight bloat. I've been working out consistently for years and I'm pretty fit.
Thanks if you've read all of this so far. My whole point is I'm not really sure why I feel so desperately hungry. I also get days where I feel too exhausted to do anything beyond my morning workout and shower. That's usually on the weekends. I get around six hours of sleep per night but I try so hard to get more. On the weekends I do get a bit more because my brain isn't thinking about my job. I don't like the feeling of being ravenous even right after eating hundreds of calories. It's concerning and I obviously want to get a handle on it before it gets out of control. I always seem to but I really don't want to gain ten pounds back just to feel too soft and try to cut again. I'm curious if anyone, especially anyone with stats similar to mine, has gone through something similar. I'm wondering if I should actually see a doctor at this point. I'm so confused, upset, and tired of going through this and feeling like I have to fight tooth and nail against myself.
Thanks again if you've read this; I appreciate it.
Sounds much like what has/had happened to me. I just am not at a happy weight for my body. I am unapologetically regaining weight... aka bulking. 8 trending so far in 6 months. How far? Who knows. I would look into your bf levels. Many women who get super lean lose there periods as you talked about. Also, do see your MD and have blood and hormones tested. Feel free to add me and send me a message. May the sun always be on your back and the wind in your hair.6 -
I hear where people are coming from with the overtraining idea, and it's a great thing to consider. I do worry a little when I see people told (at varying amounts of exercise) that they're "working out too much" or "doing too much cardio" or that sort of thing. Overtraining is very individual, very context-specific. What would be overtraining for me if repeated for days (let alone weeks) would be a big sequence of rest days for national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport.
I think that overtraining is a good thing to consider in OP's scenario, and there are markers (like an increase in resting heart rate) that sometimes occur when overtraining, that are useful inputs. Whether overtraining in a technical sense or not, when facing persistent fatigue, a rest/recovery break could be a good thing to try purely on speculation; If it's not excessively long (to the point of materially detraining), there's no real downside.
I'd point out, though, that OP says "I've been working out consistently for years and I'm pretty fit." While that doesn't mean her current routine is definitively no problem, it does imply that her threshold for overtraining (i.e., what constitutes "a lot of exercise" or "too much exercise") will differ from what it would be for those among us who've more recently become active.
My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.
Moreover (of course), the context can make a normal routine have an overtraining effect for an experienced person, so the stress, sleep limitations, possible undiagnosed nutrition issues, etc., can contribute to an overtraining outcome.
Apologies for the digression.
I don't know about this. If you talk to many people who have been over exercisers and been in the same situation as OP. They were very active for years, but after so long, it does take a toll on your body. I know numerous people who were runners (at a healthy weight) and were burnt out by age 30. They had been running 70+ miles a week for enjoyment, but that kind of exercise for years and years while under-eating (even if maintaining) can have effects. I am not saying you are wrong, but I am just saying that I've seen people who were as active as OP for years have similar long term effects and be in the same situation.5 -
To echo @Noreenmarie1234 you have intense training with "rest days" that, based on the discussion, would probably be classified per MFP activity levels in the range of active to above very active, and generally speaking low energy availability (as evidenced by unintended weight loss and hormonal disruption). Feeling a push towards hyperphagia to increase energy availability and repair potential physical damage that may have taken place due to the persistent low energy availability would not be totally unexpected.6
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Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »I hear where people are coming from with the overtraining idea, and it's a great thing to consider. I do worry a little when I see people told (at varying amounts of exercise) that they're "working out too much" or "doing too much cardio" or that sort of thing. Overtraining is very individual, very context-specific. What would be overtraining for me if repeated for days (let alone weeks) would be a big sequence of rest days for national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport.
I think that overtraining is a good thing to consider in OP's scenario, and there are markers (like an increase in resting heart rate) that sometimes occur when overtraining, that are useful inputs. Whether overtraining in a technical sense or not, when facing persistent fatigue, a rest/recovery break could be a good thing to try purely on speculation; If it's not excessively long (to the point of materially detraining), there's no real downside.
I'd point out, though, that OP says "I've been working out consistently for years and I'm pretty fit." While that doesn't mean her current routine is definitively no problem, it does imply that her threshold for overtraining (i.e., what constitutes "a lot of exercise" or "too much exercise") will differ from what it would be for those among us who've more recently become active.
My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.
Moreover (of course), the context can make a normal routine have an overtraining effect for an experienced person, so the stress, sleep limitations, possible undiagnosed nutrition issues, etc., can contribute to an overtraining outcome.
Apologies for the digression.
I don't know about this. If you talk to many people who have been over exercisers and been in the same situation as OP. They were very active for years, but after so long, it does take a toll on your body. I know numerous people who were runners (at a healthy weight) and were burnt out by age 30. They had been running 70+ miles a week for enjoyment, but that kind of exercise for years and years while under-eating (even if maintaining) can have effects. I am not saying you are wrong, but I am just saying that I've seen people who were as active as OP for years have similar long term effects and be in the same situation.
As I said in my initial post about overtraining: OP could be overtraining. That could be true after any length of being active, at any level of fitness. The under-eating, under-nutrition, under-sleep factors make it even more likely.
We had a bit of side discussion going about what would be "too much" or could trigger overtraining symptoms, more generally, in other people.
My comment was intended to be about that, from the perspective of someone who's been active for many years (and has overtrained at times). I don't know how to be more clear than what I said in my first post about the overtraining possibility:My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.
I'm not disagreeing or arguing with the point about overtraining being possible for OP, or anyone else, at any intensity/duration/frequency of exercise that causes them to experience the symptoms. It's very individual. I'd expect OP's threshold for overtraining to be higher than for most beginners, but overtraining is still possible . . . especially in the context she reports with fatigue, hunger, stress, lack of sleep, and undetermined potential for nutritional issues (i.e., no current blood tests for some relevant factors).1 -
Thanks for everyone who has replied since my last post. Today is my second day of no formal exercise beyond walking. I have 21,490 steps so far today but my quads and hamstrings are still sore from my last workout two days ago. On a sidenote, I do want to say that walking differs for people with regard to intensity. I know so many people think walking isn't a big deal but it does add up. I live in a city so I never drive and I walk fast. My normal walking speed is 4mph so my walking is never really a leisurely stroll and my heart rate is always elevated. I've been noticing lately my gait has changed due to my leg soreness.
RE: Overtraining. In the past few months I've really increased the difficulty of my workouts. Every day was a challenge; every day I was sore and just working through it. Like @AnnPT77 said, I think that combined with the times where I wasn't eating enough and getting inadequate sleep, everything just hit me all at once. All the resistance training wasn't lining up with what results from not fueling my body enough.
I've been sore from workouts but this has been a new level. When I'd take those weekend naps, I'd wake up with my legs feeling quite heavy, sore and extremely warm. My legs were really being taxed these past few months and add on the walking and dancing and it makes sense. I get sore in other areas but my legs are always the most sore as they get the most use and have a fair amount of muscle. I got a really bad stomach bug in January which caused me to be bed ridden for a few days and I could not eat. It caused an electrolyte imbalance and the heaviest effect was on my legs. Every inch of my them felt like they were on fire and they were cramping all over the place. I cried myself to sleep that's how bad it was. I threw in the towel and went to urgent care the next day to see if it truly was just a stomach bug and to get a doctor's note for work. I had ketones in my urine and the doctor told me to take electrolyte powder; it helped immensely and I've been using it ever since for my legs.
My legs getting unusually sore is usually the first sign for me that something is changing. I've been getting these weird pains in my knee and shins lately and also in my wrists. At first I figured it was just how intense my new workouts are but it seems like issues were slowly adding up. The last time this situation happened I was weight lifting, doing a lot of running and practicing IF, so it was probably the same case of overtraining and underfueling back then as well. I'll be the first to admit I can be a stubborn idiot when it comes to caring for myself. I'm extremely hard on myself all the time. Seeing comments from others has put so much into perspective. I've never had a DEXA scan but my Fitbit Aria had been putting me at ~16% BF which I never took seriously and still don't. However, I've seen BF estimation threads for women here where women are pegged as 18% and I would have guessed them to be more like 23% based on the assumption my own BF was closer to 20% even though I have visible abs so there's no way for me to know for sure.
In any case, it's been nice to have two days off from morning exercise and focusing on other tasks. I plan on enjoying the rest of the week not exercising beyond walking and dancing around my apartment as usual. My sleep quality is still poor but my AC was installed today so here's hoping a cooler, less humid room helps! I know I write it every time I post, but I seriously cannot thank all of you enough. Sometimes we can give advice to others but we can't follow it, especially when it comes from ourselves. I'm definitely my own worst critic and need to work on self-care. Without counting calories I know I'm in a surplus but I'm just going to keep on with the not tracking and not weighing in until I feel healthy and balanced again.
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I hope you feel better soon @Maxematics. I wish I could contribute more but I have no personal experience to relate. I'm a silent lurker in these forums lol. I will say, I've enjoyed reading the thread since some knowledgeable posters have weighed in. This internet stranger hopes you get back in fighting shape!5
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I have 21,490 steps so far today but my quads and hamstrings are still sore from my last workout two days ago.
That still isn't a rest day... I would only really consider a rest day under 8,000, maybe 6,000 steps. Your "rest day" is more like an active recovery day, which is not the same thing.10 -
I have 21,490 steps so far today but my quads and hamstrings are still sore from my last workout two days ago.
That still isn't a rest day... I would only really consider a rest day under 8,000, maybe 6,000 steps. Your "rest day" is more like an active recovery day, which is not the same thing.
There's absolutely nothing I can do about that though. I commute to and from work by walking. Also, I'm a teacher and get many steps due to that alone but yesterday we had a field trip and did a lot of walking as well.6 -
You are 16% or possibly even lower because of your muscle mass. I don't think you are seeing yourself very clearly at all. Also, with that amount of walking daily, I hope you are listing yourself as very active when calculating calories. Your body is begging you for a rest and some more food.5
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You are 16% or possibly even lower because of your muscle mass. I don't think you are seeing yourself very clearly at all. Also, with that amount of walking daily, I hope you are listing yourself as very active when calculating calories. Your body is begging you for a rest and some more food.
I think others may underestimate BF% because I truly don't think I'm that low but there's no way to say for sure. I agree that I don't think see myself clearly though; it's hard to get used to my body being different than it used to be. I don't list myself as very active because I have Fitbit linked to MFP and let it make adjustments. I eat back my adjustments though. I haven't logged food in a few weeks though because I'm eating without counting calories and just letting myself eat as much as I'd like until I feel satisfied.3 -
You are 16% or possibly even lower because of your muscle mass. I don't think you are seeing yourself very clearly at all. Also, with that amount of walking daily, I hope you are listing yourself as very active when calculating calories. Your body is begging you for a rest and some more food.
I am no expert, but if you look like you do in your pic, you are below 18% imho. Dexa and hydro are the gold standard. Though inside populations they are good. With individuals, there is a greater error rate.2 -
I'm relatively new on here and am not sure what TDEE means. Please could someone help. TIA 😁0
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dearfattie wrote: »I'm relatively new on here and am not sure what TDEE means. Please could someone help. TIA 😁
Total daily energy expenditures1 -
dearfattie wrote: »I'm relatively new on here and am not sure what TDEE means. Please could someone help. TIA 😁
TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure. Basically the amount of calories you burn doing everything you do in a day, exercise included. MFP uses NEAT, Non Exercise Activity Thermogenesis which means the amount of calories you burn daily but excluding exercise calories. That's why MFP expects you to log intentional exercise calories separately.5 -
I wonder if you had a mild case of rhabdo during your illness - it can be caused by infections, and mild cases can have very few symptoms - but the effects can last for months. It would explain a lot. Mostly when you hear about rhabdo you only hear about severe cases, for the obvious reason that it can be life-threatening, but much milder cases do exist, and muscles stay weak for a long time afterwards.5
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[/quote] I think others may underestimate BF% because I truly don't think I'm that low but there's no way to say for sure. I agree that I don't think see myself clearly though; it's hard to get used to my body being different than it used to be. I don't list myself as very active because I have Fitbit linked to MFP and let it make adjustments. I eat back my adjustments though. I haven't logged food in a few weeks though because I'm eating without counting calories and just letting myself eat as much as I'd like until I feel satisfied.[/quote]
If you are no longer counting and eating based on hunger, my guess is you are under eating. You've said you don't eat when you are stressed or anxious or have a lot going on. Perhaps refocus on your nutrition along with the exercise break. Consciously eat 2000+ (I'd say more like 2500 calories based on your activity level) for a few weeks and see how you are feeling. (If the thought of this makes you cringe because, ugh, possible weight gain, I'd again urge you to see an eating disorder therapist).
Not being able to see your body how it really looks (which you've stated you can't) is another classic eating disorder symptom called body dysmorphia.
Lots of positive thoughts going your way as you work through this all.6 -
NovemberSkye wrote: »
If you are no longer counting and eating based on hunger, my guess is you are under eating. You've said you don't eat when you are stressed or anxious or have a lot going on. Perhaps refocus on your nutrition along with the exercise break. Consciously eat 2000+ (I'd say more like 2500 calories based on your activity level) for a few weeks and see how you are feeling. (If the thought of this makes you cringe because, ugh, possible weight gain, I'd again urge you to see an eating disorder therapist).
Not being able to see your body how it really looks (which you've stated you can't) is another classic eating disorder symptom called body dysmorphia.
Lots of positive thoughts going your way as you work through this all.
Thanks but I'm positive I'm definitely not undereating anymore. Since my hunger levels have been intense over the past few weeks not logging helps me eat more since I'm not focused on numbers or feeling guilty. Even if I rough count, my dinner and snack at night are 1500 alone. I'm not weighing in but will do so after my next cycle. Also weight gain in and of itself doesn't make me cringe. It's eating in a 1000+ calorie surplus daily that worries me because rapid weight gain will result in more fat gained than muscle which isn't ideal and that's the supposed surplus I was having most days until I stopped logging. Just like slow, sustainable weight loss is best, bulking slowly is optimal for body composition.6 -
Maxematics wrote: »NovemberSkye wrote: »
If you are no longer counting and eating based on hunger, my guess is you are under eating. You've said you don't eat when you are stressed or anxious or have a lot going on. Perhaps refocus on your nutrition along with the exercise break. Consciously eat 2000+ (I'd say more like 2500 calories based on your activity level) for a few weeks and see how you are feeling. (If the thought of this makes you cringe because, ugh, possible weight gain, I'd again urge you to see an eating disorder therapist).
Not being able to see your body how it really looks (which you've stated you can't) is another classic eating disorder symptom called body dysmorphia.
Lots of positive thoughts going your way as you work through this all.
Thanks but I'm positive I'm definitely not undereating anymore. Also weight gain in and of itself doesn't make me cringe. It's eating in a 1000+ calorie surplus daily that worries me because rapid weight gain will result in more fat gained than muscle which isn't ideal and that's the supposed surplus I was having most days until I stopped logging. Just like slow, sustainable weight loss is best, bulking slowly is optimal for body composition.
I don't think you need to hit a X number of calories every day...you are not recovering from anorexia. Your organs are not at risk. You unintentionally/or even intentionally underate and now you need to eat more until your hunger normalizes and your energy levels get better. It sounds to me like you are listening to your hunger closer and not denying it. Try to truly kick back this weekend... maybe even take off your Fitbit?! Hugs.11
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