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I'm not really sure what's happening

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  • apullumapullum Posts: 4,489Member Member Posts: 4,489Member Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I hear where people are coming from with the overtraining idea, and it's a great thing to consider. I do worry a little when I see people told (at varying amounts of exercise) that they're "working out too much" or "doing too much cardio" or that sort of thing. Overtraining is very individual, very context-specific. What would be overtraining for me if repeated for days (let alone weeks) would be a big sequence of rest days for national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport.

    I think that overtraining is a good thing to consider in OP's scenario, and there are markers (like an increase in resting heart rate) that sometimes occur when overtraining, that are useful inputs. Whether overtraining in a technical sense or not, when facing persistent fatigue, a rest/recovery break could be a good thing to try purely on speculation; If it's not excessively long (to the point of materially detraining), there's no real downside.

    I'd point out, though, that OP says "I've been working out consistently for years and I'm pretty fit." While that doesn't mean her current routine is definitively no problem, it does imply that her threshold for overtraining (i.e., what constitutes "a lot of exercise" or "too much exercise") will differ from what it would be for those among us who've more recently become active.

    My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.

    Moreover (of course), the context can make a normal routine have an overtraining effect for an experienced person, so the stress, sleep limitations, possible undiagnosed nutrition issues, etc., can contribute to an overtraining outcome.

    Apologies for the digression.

    I think most of us who are commenting have also been working out at fairly intense levels for a while. I’ve been running for over four years now. Under-recovery isn’t just a newbie thing. In fact, the experiences people are sharing seem just the opposite—those of us who are very active and have been very active for a while might underestimate the impact of adding additional low intensity exercise.

    I think it’s also the case that lack of adequate recovery can take a while to catch up to you, and several of us have trouble figuring out that it’s what we’re experiencing, so we just keep doing what we’ve been doing and potentially make the problem worse.

    OP is telling us that her “rest day” includes an exercise class and 10k-20k steps, which might not constitute enough actual rest. That doesn’t mean it’s the definite or only cause of OP’s symptoms, but I think it’s worth looking into.
  • AnnPT77AnnPT77 Posts: 12,731Member Member Posts: 12,731Member Member
    apullum wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I hear where people are coming from with the overtraining idea, and it's a great thing to consider. I do worry a little when I see people told (at varying amounts of exercise) that they're "working out too much" or "doing too much cardio" or that sort of thing. Overtraining is very individual, very context-specific. What would be overtraining for me if repeated for days (let alone weeks) would be a big sequence of rest days for national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport.

    I think that overtraining is a good thing to consider in OP's scenario, and there are markers (like an increase in resting heart rate) that sometimes occur when overtraining, that are useful inputs. Whether overtraining in a technical sense or not, when facing persistent fatigue, a rest/recovery break could be a good thing to try purely on speculation; If it's not excessively long (to the point of materially detraining), there's no real downside.

    I'd point out, though, that OP says "I've been working out consistently for years and I'm pretty fit." While that doesn't mean her current routine is definitively no problem, it does imply that her threshold for overtraining (i.e., what constitutes "a lot of exercise" or "too much exercise") will differ from what it would be for those among us who've more recently become active.

    My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.

    Moreover (of course), the context can make a normal routine have an overtraining effect for an experienced person, so the stress, sleep limitations, possible undiagnosed nutrition issues, etc., can contribute to an overtraining outcome.

    Apologies for the digression.

    I think most of us who are commenting have also been working out at fairly intense levels for a while. I’ve been running for over four years now. Under-recovery isn’t just a newbie thing. In fact, the experiences people are sharing seem just the opposite—those of us who are very active and have been very active for a while might underestimate the impact of adding additional low intensity exercise.

    I think it’s also the case that lack of adequate recovery can take a while to catch up to you, and several of us have trouble figuring out that it’s what we’re experiencing, so we just keep doing what we’ve been doing and potentially make the problem worse.

    OP is telling us that her “rest day” includes an exercise class and 10k-20k steps, which might not constitute enough actual rest. That doesn’t mean it’s the definite or only cause of OP’s symptoms, but I think it’s worth looking into.

    I completely agree.

    And of course under-recovery isn't just something that happens to new exercisers. It can happen to anyone, at any level, including experienced elites.

    It's important for those new to exercise to realize it can happen at what seem like abstractly non-extreme exercise levels (levels that they see more-trained friends handling fine). That was my point, there's no objective universal objective definition of "too much" exercise.

    OP may be overtraining, absolutely: It's something to consider, 100%.
  • apullumapullum Posts: 4,489Member Member Posts: 4,489Member Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    apullum wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I hear where people are coming from with the overtraining idea, and it's a great thing to consider. I do worry a little when I see people told (at varying amounts of exercise) that they're "working out too much" or "doing too much cardio" or that sort of thing. Overtraining is very individual, very context-specific. What would be overtraining for me if repeated for days (let alone weeks) would be a big sequence of rest days for national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport.

    I think that overtraining is a good thing to consider in OP's scenario, and there are markers (like an increase in resting heart rate) that sometimes occur when overtraining, that are useful inputs. Whether overtraining in a technical sense or not, when facing persistent fatigue, a rest/recovery break could be a good thing to try purely on speculation; If it's not excessively long (to the point of materially detraining), there's no real downside.

    I'd point out, though, that OP says "I've been working out consistently for years and I'm pretty fit." While that doesn't mean her current routine is definitively no problem, it does imply that her threshold for overtraining (i.e., what constitutes "a lot of exercise" or "too much exercise") will differ from what it would be for those among us who've more recently become active.

    My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.

    Moreover (of course), the context can make a normal routine have an overtraining effect for an experienced person, so the stress, sleep limitations, possible undiagnosed nutrition issues, etc., can contribute to an overtraining outcome.

    Apologies for the digression.

    I think most of us who are commenting have also been working out at fairly intense levels for a while. I’ve been running for over four years now. Under-recovery isn’t just a newbie thing. In fact, the experiences people are sharing seem just the opposite—those of us who are very active and have been very active for a while might underestimate the impact of adding additional low intensity exercise.

    I think it’s also the case that lack of adequate recovery can take a while to catch up to you, and several of us have trouble figuring out that it’s what we’re experiencing, so we just keep doing what we’ve been doing and potentially make the problem worse.

    OP is telling us that her “rest day” includes an exercise class and 10k-20k steps, which might not constitute enough actual rest. That doesn’t mean it’s the definite or only cause of OP’s symptoms, but I think it’s worth looking into.

    I completely agree.

    And of course under-recovery isn't just something that happens to new exercisers. It can happen to anyone, at any level, including experienced elites.

    It's important for those new to exercise to realize it can happen at what seem like abstractly non-extreme exercise levels (levels that they see more-trained friends handling fine). That was my point, there's no objective universal objective definition of "too much" exercise.

    OP may be overtraining, absolutely: It's something to consider, 100%.

    Yes, definitely.

    (Not arguing with you at all—I appreciate your insight, and I know sometimes message board posts can come across as defensive or argumentive.)
  • AnnPT77AnnPT77 Posts: 12,731Member Member Posts: 12,731Member Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    I hear where people are coming from with the overtraining idea, and it's a great thing to consider. I do worry a little when I see people told (at varying amounts of exercise) that they're "working out too much" or "doing too much cardio" or that sort of thing. Overtraining is very individual, very context-specific. What would be overtraining for me if repeated for days (let alone weeks) would be a big sequence of rest days for national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport.

    I think that overtraining is a good thing to consider in OP's scenario, and there are markers (like an increase in resting heart rate) that sometimes occur when overtraining, that are useful inputs. Whether overtraining in a technical sense or not, when facing persistent fatigue, a rest/recovery break could be a good thing to try purely on speculation; If it's not excessively long (to the point of materially detraining), there's no real downside.

    I'd point out, though, that OP says "I've been working out consistently for years and I'm pretty fit." While that doesn't mean her current routine is definitively no problem, it does imply that her threshold for overtraining (i.e., what constitutes "a lot of exercise" or "too much exercise") will differ from what it would be for those among us who've more recently become active.

    My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.

    Moreover (of course), the context can make a normal routine have an overtraining effect for an experienced person, so the stress, sleep limitations, possible undiagnosed nutrition issues, etc., can contribute to an overtraining outcome.

    Apologies for the digression.

    I don't know about this. If you talk to many people who have been over exercisers and been in the same situation as OP. They were very active for years, but after so long, it does take a toll on your body. I know numerous people who were runners (at a healthy weight) and were burnt out by age 30. They had been running 70+ miles a week for enjoyment, but that kind of exercise for years and years while under-eating (even if maintaining) can have effects. I am not saying you are wrong, but I am just saying that I've seen people who were as active as OP for years have similar long term effects and be in the same situation.

    As I said in my initial post about overtraining: OP could be overtraining. That could be true after any length of being active, at any level of fitness. The under-eating, under-nutrition, under-sleep factors make it even more likely.

    We had a bit of side discussion going about what would be "too much" or could trigger overtraining symptoms, more generally, in other people.

    My comment was intended to be about that, from the perspective of someone who's been active for many years (and has overtrained at times). I don't know how to be more clear than what I said in my first post about the overtraining possibility:
    My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.

    I'm not disagreeing or arguing with the point about overtraining being possible for OP, or anyone else, at any intensity/duration/frequency of exercise that causes them to experience the symptoms. It's very individual. I'd expect OP's threshold for overtraining to be higher than for most beginners, but overtraining is still possible . . . especially in the context she reports with fatigue, hunger, stress, lack of sleep, and undetermined potential for nutritional issues (i.e., no current blood tests for some relevant factors).
  • MaxematicsMaxematics Posts: 2,243Member Member Posts: 2,243Member Member
    dmt4641 wrote: »
    You are 16% or possibly even lower because of your muscle mass. I don't think you are seeing yourself very clearly at all. Also, with that amount of walking daily, I hope you are listing yourself as very active when calculating calories. Your body is begging you for a rest and some more food.

    I think others may underestimate BF% because I truly don't think I'm that low but there's no way to say for sure. I agree that I don't think see myself clearly though; it's hard to get used to my body being different than it used to be. I don't list myself as very active because I have Fitbit linked to MFP and let it make adjustments. I eat back my adjustments though. I haven't logged food in a few weeks though because I'm eating without counting calories and just letting myself eat as much as I'd like until I feel satisfied.
    edited June 13
  • psychod787psychod787 Posts: 2,819Member, Premium Member Posts: 2,819Member, Premium Member
    dmt4641 wrote: »
    You are 16% or possibly even lower because of your muscle mass. I don't think you are seeing yourself very clearly at all. Also, with that amount of walking daily, I hope you are listing yourself as very active when calculating calories. Your body is begging you for a rest and some more food.

    I am no expert, but if you look like you do in your pic, you are below 18% imho. Dexa and hydro are the gold standard. Though inside populations they are good. With individuals, there is a greater error rate.
  • dearfattiedearfattie Posts: 1Member, Premium Member Posts: 1Member, Premium Member
    I'm relatively new on here and am not sure what TDEE means. Please could someone help. TIA 😁
  • psychod787psychod787 Posts: 2,819Member, Premium Member Posts: 2,819Member, Premium Member
    dearfattie wrote: »
    I'm relatively new on here and am not sure what TDEE means. Please could someone help. TIA 😁

    Total daily energy expenditures
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