Help! Dealing with unsolicited attention and dysmorphic thoughts 💭

sammidelvecchio

quiksylver296 wrote: »

I totally get what you are saying, and you have a valid point.

My thought is this. Which of these things can you personally correct? You can't change how random men act. You can train and prepare to keep yourself safe.

I would direct you to this portion of my comment:

They are good skills to have, but it should be to protect ourselves from everything because you never know what might happen. It shouldn't be, I can't live my life currently without the fear of being assaulted or made to feel unsafe by strange men every single place I go so I need to learn better ways to protect myself.

MikePTY

MichelleMinn wrote: »

I had the same reaction to the self defense suggestion, Sammi. I know it was coming from a good place, but ...

Women default to spending their lives managing men as a matter of course, and men -- even good men -- are oblivious to this. Women are aware of the things others think they should do, and the things they'll be blamed for doing or not doing. They're aware that a lot of men think women live their lives to court male attention, and that make-up, weight loss, genetic blessings, walking down the street, will be seen as soliciting "appreciation."

This punk-kittened kid came into my restaurant several months ago, and insisted on referring to me as "Lovely," as if it were my name. This teenager, who I don't think was actually hitting on me, was under the impression I'd be flattered. I was skeeved.

Anyhow, women know the "rules," they know the dangers. The greatest gift is not adding another rule or suggestion as to another thing to do in a life of catering to the moods and whims of men, especially one they've heard before, is to help create a world where women CAN just be. A world where a woman can go to the pool, or the gym, or out for an evening walk, or a night with friends, and not have to devote part of her brain or attention to anyone who shouldn't have to concern her.

How about, what are men going to do to stop being creepy? How about, what are men going to do to make clear to other men that the responsibility to not be creepy is on them? What are men going to do so that a woman doesn't have to consider self-defense courses in order to make progress on being comfortable in a space where she should already be comfortable?

I appreciate all the dialog in this post, and I apologize if my suggestion came off in a way like I was trying to put the responsibility on women to be responsible for changing the crappy behavior of men.

To answer the bolded though, I think those who have been on these boards a while can attest that when posts come up (and they do occasionally, although usually they eventually get deleted), where a guy comes with something like "why can't I hit on girls on the gym you should like it that someone is taking interest in you," I'm usually right there calling them out forcefully for all their nonsense. So all the recommendations in the bold are things that I already do incorporate into my life and attempt to do to the best of my ability. But that doesn't mean that I can't always be improving and doing more.

sammidelvecchio

To all quoting my post , I agree every human being should know how to defend themselves. And as I mentioned, it is a good idea to help her "feel" safer. But the bigger point, is that even though men aren't on here asking how to be better, they are reading this thread. And they need to understand the dialogue that goes with it. And I for one feel more empowered when I know other women have my back and agree that while yes, we can do a million things to stay safe, and always try harder to stay away from dangerous situations, the ultimate goal is that we shouldn't have to when it comes to unwanted attention from men. And we need to say that out loud more.

And I am not surprised at all OP already practices martial arts. Most of the women I know have taken self-defense. Most of the women I know have put time and money and effort into so many things to give them peace of mind and the feeling of being prepared. Of all the things I have done, they make me feel like IF something happens, I did everything I could to avoid it - taking self defense classes, being extremely aware, walking with friends, never leaving drinks unattended, wearing a shirt around my waist, having mace and a self-defense tool on my purse visible to potential attackers, checking my back seat, not wearing headphones, the list goes on. That is the peace of mind that I get out of it. But in the moment its happening, the fear is real and looks and comments make my skin crawl.

Men need to understand their effect on women, and need to start hearing that the responsibility needs to shift from women protecting themselves to men treating us like human beings.

sammidelvecchio

Also, to quote the OP:

I guess other than to rant, I’m not sure what kind of support I’m looking for here, other than if anyone else has experienced something similar, and how to move past it.

Talking to other women and telling them they aren't alone and that they aren't crazy or dramatic for thinking we shouldn't have to deal with this helps me move past these experiences.

COGypsy

sammidelvecchio wrote: »

To all quoting my post , I agree every human being should know how to defend themselves. And as I mentioned, it is a good idea to help her "feel" safer. But the bigger point, is that even though men aren't on here asking how to be better, they are reading this thread. And they need to understand the dialogue that goes with it. And I for one feel more empowered when I know other women have my back and agree that while yes, we can do a million things to stay safe, and always try harder to stay away from dangerous situations, the ultimate goal is that we shouldn't have to when it comes to unwanted attention from men. And we need to say that out loud more.

And I am not surprised at all OP already practices martial arts. Most of the women I know have taken self-defense. Most of the women I know have put time and money and effort into so many things to give them peace of mind and the feeling of being prepared. Of all the things I have done, they make me feel like IF something happens, I did everything I could to avoid it - taking self defense classes, being extremely aware, walking with friends, never leaving drinks unattended, wearing a shirt around my waist, having mace and a self-defense tool on my purse visible to potential attackers, checking my back seat, not wearing headphones, the list goes on. That is the peace of mind that I get out of it. But in the moment its happening, the fear is real and looks and comments make my skin crawl.

Men need to understand their effect on women, and need to start hearing that the responsibility needs to shift from women protecting themselves to men treating us like human beings.

I think the bolded is the crux of the matter. In my experience, men just don't get how different our experience moving through the world is. I had a conversation with my father once. He's a good man. He was a single dad to 2 teenaged girls, so I'd say he's far more aware of the female experience than most (outnumbered and surrounded is the phrase that comes to mind ). Even so, we were walking back from somewhere in my neighborhood and I told him I never walk through the neighborhood alone at night, I stick to the busy street nearby. He pointed out that I live in a nice neighborhood. I agreed and pointed out that there were still a lot of dark alleyways and big trees and bushes that cast big shadows. He still doubted that I'd get mugged. I had to explain to him that I would LOVE to be mugged in a dark alley....it's being raped and assaulted that I'm more worried about. He was absolutely silent the rest of our walk and when we got home, all he could say was that he'd never thought about that possibility and that he was so sorry that I had to consider that when I'm out places.

I think most men are really good guys, it's just the idea of having to assess risk in just about every situation you come across is completely foreign.

I'm not sure how that gets changed.

kimny72

sammidelvecchio wrote: »

Also, to quote the OP:

I guess other than to rant, I’m not sure what kind of support I’m looking for here, other than if anyone else has experienced something similar, and how to move past it.

Talking to other women and telling them they aren't alone and that they aren't crazy or dramatic for thinking we shouldn't have to deal with this helps me move past these experiences.

I believe the responses like mine came from this part of your post:

sammidelvecchio wrote: »

While the suggestion to take self-defense type classes seems appropriate, it actually infuriates me.

Making one guy feel like crap for what was IMHO a good suggestion doesn't help anything. I agree that men need to be held responsible for their actions, but I don't see how Mike's post negated that, or deserved being made into an example of what's wrong. I'll add that OP never said it was men who were making all these comments, in fact, the first time I read her post, I assumed she meant comments about her weight loss. I've had plenty of female customers, coworkers, and relatives make comments about my weight and my body that made me feel uncomfortable and self-conscious, in addition to creepy male attention.

Anyway, I don't want to continue to hijack OP's thread, I just think we can make it clear she's not alone and her feelings are valid without jumping someone for their suggestion. I don't think anyone's argument was with the crux of your posts, just the way you derided someone else's suggestion in the process.

MichelleMinn

MikePTY wrote: »

I appreciate all the dialog in this post, and I apologize if my suggestion came off in a way like I was trying to put the responsibility on women to be responsible for changing the crappy behavior of men.

To answer the bolded though, I think those who have been on these boards a while can attest that when posts come up (and they do occasionally, although usually they eventually get deleted), where a guy comes with something like "why can't I hit on girls on the gym you should like it that someone is taking interest in you," I'm usually right there calling them out forcefully for all their nonsense. So all the recommendations in the bold are things that I already do incorporate into my life and attempt to do to the best of my ability. But that doesn't mean that I can't always be improving and doing more.

Please know I wasn't attacking you, or ascribing to you bad intentions. My comment was more societal than personal, but I know it probably didn't feel that way. I'm sorry.

We all bring our baggage to these discussions, and women's baggage on this matter tends to be ... a lot.

I think we unintentionally fall into a trap of expecting women to live smaller lives, or lives where they make others of paramount importance. Which feeds in to men thinking that this attendance to them is a want as opposed to a burden

When I was in my late teens and early 20s, I had a habit of long walks at night. I'm a night owl with a tendency for insomnia -- while this is much improved in general, I didn't sleep last night for more than a restless hour or so. Anyhow, I loved these walks. Smelling the lilac bushes, enjoying the quiet, using elaborate twist and turns of streets like a maze. It was this really healthy, freeing, thing I did.

I knew, of course, that this was considered "risky" behavior, but that was very abstract.

One night, I'm walking home along a cross street. I'd been at the 7-11. While this was a busy street during the day, this is 2 or 3am, maybe later, so traffic is very light. It's one of the reasons I liked these walks, the sense that everyone else was asleep. A pick up truck drives by, and I notice it on some level, but think nothing of it. Until a minute or so later, it goes back the other way, kinda slow. And then it happens again.

I've actually reached my street, and I know the driver sees me start down it, and so I dive into a back yard about three houses in. And the pick up truck goes by, down my residential street. Eventually, I run home.

I don't think I consciously knew the seed this planted, but it grew over time. Eventually, I met my husband who really hated that I went for these walks. He insisted I take a dog with me, which, hey, I love my dogs, but I knew he worried, and that he wouldn't sleep, and the thoughts I had THAT night bubbled up -- self-blame. Stupid, stupid girl. My fault. Reckless. What would people think of me if something bad happened?

It took a few years, but the walks petered away to nothing, and my mental and physical health suffered. Does my husband love me? Yes! Does he want the best for me? For sure. Could I have rescheduled my walks for broad daylight? Yeah. But people who were not be made my world smaller.

Decades later, living in a small town where I'm possibly safer than where I grew up, I am just now giving in to my impulse to go for walks again. Not all night ones, not 3am ones, ones where I stay within a block or two, but walks. And I know I will never get back the feeling I used to have.

I'm not saying I'm old, I've lived my life, and take me out back and shoot me, but I accept I've lost something precious. I just want every generation of girls and women to get to inhabit the biggest world possible.

I know you do too.

sammidelvecchio

It does infuriate me though. And just like his intention wasn't to try and make women feel responsible for staying safer, mine wasn't to make him feel like crap. And I followed up my comment in the next paragraph stating that it is a good idea to take self-defense classes and it can help people feel safer, I even referenced his name.

I understand most men don't mean any harm when they say things like that, most of the time they have never thought of it from the perspective of a woman and are really trying to help. And that's where the conversation needs to continue to help them understand why it upsets some women to constantly be told to do better. Then they can decide for themselves where to land, but I won't ever hold back sharing my experiences because I might hurt someone's feelings. I have had my feelings hurt on multiple occasions being told how something that came out of my mouth was taken by someone in a different walk of life than me. It stings, but its how we grow. It's how we get one step closer to truly understanding other walks of life, whether its surrounding sexism, racism, LGBTQ issues, or classism etc. I said nothing in a disrespectful way.

But my POV stands, my perfect world is one where this dialogue doesn't even need to be talked about anymore.

sammidelvecchio

@MichelleMinn thank you for this post, and I am sorry to hear that happened to you. I am glad you are walking again and I wish you every safety possible.