Help! Dealing with unsolicited attention and dysmorphic thoughts ðŸ’
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sammidelvecchio wrote: »There is nothing you can do to stop it except stay home. That is the unfortunate part about it all.
I am currently struggling with this at my pool. I love going to the pool, and i'm not going to stop, but sometimes I do get totally skeeved out and just want to melt away under my chair. It's really hard to not let it get to you, especially because we all just want to be able to live our lives and be left alone (ok not all of us, some like the attention, but some of us don't). I actually quit my gym because I felt so incredibly uncomfortable there with unwanted stares and advances.
I'm trying to work up the courage to confront the men at my pool, but I am terrified. I spent Sunday night crying. Hang in there, I wish I had a better answer for you.
No one should ever have to quit anything because someone else is a a-hole. Sorry you experienced this. With both a son and a daughter at a young age, I'm trying my best to raise them both to be strong and take other people's feelings into account. Especially my little guy because it seems men are just so much more likely to go down a bad road and be idiots.1 -
I had the same reaction to the self defense suggestion, Sammi. I know it was coming from a good place, but ...
Women default to spending their lives managing men as a matter of course, and men -- even good men -- are oblivious to this. Women are aware of the things others think they should do, and the things they'll be blamed for doing or not doing. They're aware that a lot of men think women live their lives to court male attention, and that make-up, weight loss, genetic blessings, walking down the street, will be seen as soliciting "appreciation."
This punk-kittened kid came into my restaurant several months ago, and insisted on referring to me as "Lovely," as if it were my name. This teenager, who I don't think was actually hitting on me, was under the impression I'd be flattered. I was skeeved.
Anyhow, women know the "rules," they know the dangers. The greatest gift is not adding another rule or suggestion as to another thing to do in a life of catering to the moods and whims of men, especially one they've heard before, is to help create a world where women CAN just be. A world where a woman can go to the pool, or the gym, or out for an evening walk, or a night with friends, and not have to devote part of her brain or attention to anyone who shouldn't have to concern her.
How about, what are men going to do to stop being creepy? How about, what are men going to do to make clear to other men that the responsibility to not be creepy is on them? What are men going to do so that a woman doesn't have to consider self-defense courses in order to make progress on being comfortable in a space where she should already be comfortable?6 -
Problem is, the men aren't posting here asking how to be more chivalrous. The advice that was given was something proactive she can do for herself. Should it be necessary? No. But people are just trying to help her out with the problem she is having. If she just wanted to vent about creepy AF, rude, misogynistic pigs, then fine. Vent away. No more suggestions.14
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Problem is, the men aren't posting here asking how to be more chivalrous. The advice that was given was something proactive she can do for herself. Should it be necessary? No. But people are just trying to help her out with the problem she is having. If she just wanted to vent about creepy AF, rude, misogynistic pigs, then fine. Vent away. No more suggestions.
I get it that the advice was well-intentioned.0 -
sammidelvecchio wrote: »While the suggestion to take self-defense type classes seems appropriate, it actually infuriates me. So often women are taught how to be safer and how to not get harassed and how to not get assaulted instead of men getting taught to not make women feel unsafe and uncomfortable.
And it is a lot easier said than done confronting someone making you feel unsafe. I think as Mike said, it might help someone's anxiety about it to "feel" like we have a better chance at defending ourselves, but speaking personally, I am tired of having to constantly prepare just to make it through my days safely and comfortably. They are good skills to have, but it should be to protect ourselves from everything because you never know what might happen. It shouldn't be, I can't live my life currently without the fear of being assaulted or made to feel unsafe by strange men every single place I go so I need to learn better ways to protect myself. And quite frankly, you can't use martial arts to feel any safer or any less violated from the looks and stares, and even worse the men who lick their lips when you walk by.
And that's not even to mention the "not all men" men. Or the ones who tell us constantly we put ourselves in these situations by the clothes we wear, etc. I should be able to grocery shop any way I please without feeling like I want to order groceries forever online and never go back. Or the ones who call me dramatic for being upset about it.
I don't disagree with you. But as other posters have said, we can only change our behaviors and reactions, not those of others. It would be amazing if we could all be treated with respect and kindness at all times and made to feel safe where ever we go. Unfortunately that isn't case, and adults in particular aren't likely to change that kind of behavior easily. For the sake of OP's comfort and piece of mind in her daily life, Mike and others made suggestions of things she can do for herself to make herself feel more comfortable and less threatened by actions of others that are outside her control.8 -
I also think it was pretty clear the suggestion was to give her self confidence, not that it was her responsibility to beat up creepy guys. Taking self defense classes can literally change the way you walk through the world in all sorts of positive ways. I think it was a great idea - that kind of physical training can make you feel more at home in your "new" body.
OP, you are not alone in feeling the way you do. I tend to let one-off comments by people I know go without anything more than perhaps a thank you. If it becomes a trend, I nicely tell them I would rather not discuss my weight, my figure, my look with them. If it's a trend with someone at work, it's really important to do that, and if it doesn't stop go to HR. Unfortunately, weight loss is one of those things some people think is open for opinions and discussion.
Strangers out in public, I ignore. If someone anywhere makes you feel unsafe though, ask someone to walk you out to your car or whatever, I've done that a few times. If you were looking for advice on how to confront people in these situations, I have no idea, I'm non-confrontational to a fault!6 -
MichelleMinn wrote: »I had the same reaction to the self defense suggestion, Sammi. I know it was coming from a good place, but ...
Women default to spending their lives managing men as a matter of course, and men -- even good men -- are oblivious to this. Women are aware of the things others think they should do, and the things they'll be blamed for doing or not doing. They're aware that a lot of men think women live their lives to court male attention, and that make-up, weight loss, genetic blessings, walking down the street, will be seen as soliciting "appreciation."
This punk-kittened kid came into my restaurant several months ago, and insisted on referring to me as "Lovely," as if it were my name. This teenager, who I don't think was actually hitting on me, was under the impression I'd be flattered. I was skeeved.
Anyhow, women know the "rules," they know the dangers. The greatest gift is not adding another rule or suggestion as to another thing to do in a life of catering to the moods and whims of men, especially one they've heard before, is to help create a world where women CAN just be. A world where a woman can go to the pool, or the gym, or out for an evening walk, or a night with friends, and not have to devote part of her brain or attention to anyone who shouldn't have to concern her.
How about, what are men going to do to stop being creepy? How about, what are men going to do to make clear to other men that the responsibility to not be creepy is on them? What are men going to do so that a woman doesn't have to consider self-defense courses in order to make progress on being comfortable in a space where she should already be comfortable?
Not trying to make an excuse, I know I should have been more mindful about it and saw what was going on. As I mentioned above, I never knew how bad it was till talking to a friend years ago about his wife running. I guess the problem is if the men who don't call out woman, etc. aren't maybe aware as I was that this happens so frequently, its hard to stop it. Plus I think a lot of the men who do these things hang out with men who also do these things. Most of my friends are similar to me, polite and treat the woman in their life with respect and that makes sense because we usually enjoy the company of others who are similar. So I would guess many of these guys do not realize its as bad as it is. That being said, I am trying to do what your last paragraph suggests. My little boy is only 4 and already I've worked with him on being respectful to woman. I try and be doubly careful about my actions as well. Yes I was complacent for years, but it was more because I didn't really grasp how bad it really was, not because I condoned it or thought it was okay. So I apologize for not being on the ball but I do promise to do a better job both personally and raising a generation that will be better!5 -
Wow! I appreciate all the feedback.
I can see where everyone is coming from, I do actually practice jiu jitsu regularly, but that’s just so I feel confident in my abilities to handle myself if danger is present.
I have 2 sons, and will do everything in my power to make sure they grow up knowing right from wrong, and how to (and how not to) treat a lady.
The work comment is more so when I’m helping out at my parents store, and pertains to creepy customers. My co-workers are lovely and I have nothing bad to say about them. They are so encouraging and supportive.
I really appreciate the dialogue this has created. Each and every comment is valued! 🤗7 -
KimberlinaB wrote: »Wow! I appreciate all the feedback.
I can see where everyone is coming from, I do actually practice jiu jitsu regularly, but that’s just so I feel confident in my abilities to handle myself if danger is present.
I have 2 sons, and will do everything in my power to make sure they grow up knowing right from wrong, and how to (and how not to) treat a lady.
The work comment is more so when I’m helping out at my parents store, and pertains to creepy customers. My co-workers are lovely and I have nothing bad to say about them. They are so encouraging and supportive.
I really appreciate the dialogue this has created. Each and every comment is valued! 🤗
In that case, practice recognizing that their behavior is about them, not you and ignore them. I know that isn't easy to do but it may be the healthiest option for you.3 -
KimberlinaB wrote: »Wow! I appreciate all the feedback.
I can see where everyone is coming from, I do actually practice jiu jitsu regularly, but that’s just so I feel confident in my abilities to handle myself if danger is present.
I have 2 sons, and will do everything in my power to make sure they grow up knowing right from wrong, and how to (and how not to) treat a lady.
The work comment is more so when I’m helping out at my parents store, and pertains to creepy customers. My co-workers are lovely and I have nothing bad to say about them. They are so encouraging and supportive.
I really appreciate the dialogue this has created. Each and every comment is valued! 🤗
In that case, practice recognizing that their behavior is about them, not you and ignore them. I know that isn't easy to do but it may be the healthiest option for you.
Yeah, people can be weird. And awkward. And needy. And weird. Working with the public requires a special level of positive head space, unfortunately!2 -
quiksylver296 wrote: »
I totally get what you are saying, and you have a valid point.
My thought is this. Which of these things can you personally correct? You can't change how random men act. You can train and prepare to keep yourself safe.
I would direct you to this portion of my comment:
They are good skills to have, but it should be to protect ourselves from everything because you never know what might happen. It shouldn't be, I can't live my life currently without the fear of being assaulted or made to feel unsafe by strange men every single place I go so I need to learn better ways to protect myself.3 -
MichelleMinn wrote: »I had the same reaction to the self defense suggestion, Sammi. I know it was coming from a good place, but ...
Women default to spending their lives managing men as a matter of course, and men -- even good men -- are oblivious to this. Women are aware of the things others think they should do, and the things they'll be blamed for doing or not doing. They're aware that a lot of men think women live their lives to court male attention, and that make-up, weight loss, genetic blessings, walking down the street, will be seen as soliciting "appreciation."
This punk-kittened kid came into my restaurant several months ago, and insisted on referring to me as "Lovely," as if it were my name. This teenager, who I don't think was actually hitting on me, was under the impression I'd be flattered. I was skeeved.
Anyhow, women know the "rules," they know the dangers. The greatest gift is not adding another rule or suggestion as to another thing to do in a life of catering to the moods and whims of men, especially one they've heard before, is to help create a world where women CAN just be. A world where a woman can go to the pool, or the gym, or out for an evening walk, or a night with friends, and not have to devote part of her brain or attention to anyone who shouldn't have to concern her.
How about, what are men going to do to stop being creepy? How about, what are men going to do to make clear to other men that the responsibility to not be creepy is on them? What are men going to do so that a woman doesn't have to consider self-defense courses in order to make progress on being comfortable in a space where she should already be comfortable?
I appreciate all the dialog in this post, and I apologize if my suggestion came off in a way like I was trying to put the responsibility on women to be responsible for changing the crappy behavior of men.
To answer the bolded though, I think those who have been on these boards a while can attest that when posts come up (and they do occasionally, although usually they eventually get deleted), where a guy comes with something like "why can't I hit on girls on the gym you should like it that someone is taking interest in you," I'm usually right there calling them out forcefully for all their nonsense. So all the recommendations in the bold are things that I already do incorporate into my life and attempt to do to the best of my ability. But that doesn't mean that I can't always be improving and doing more.12 -
To all quoting my post , I agree every human being should know how to defend themselves. And as I mentioned, it is a good idea to help her "feel" safer. But the bigger point, is that even though men aren't on here asking how to be better, they are reading this thread. And they need to understand the dialogue that goes with it. And I for one feel more empowered when I know other women have my back and agree that while yes, we can do a million things to stay safe, and always try harder to stay away from dangerous situations, the ultimate goal is that we shouldn't have to when it comes to unwanted attention from men. And we need to say that out loud more.
And I am not surprised at all OP already practices martial arts. Most of the women I know have taken self-defense. Most of the women I know have put time and money and effort into so many things to give them peace of mind and the feeling of being prepared. Of all the things I have done, they make me feel like IF something happens, I did everything I could to avoid it - taking self defense classes, being extremely aware, walking with friends, never leaving drinks unattended, wearing a shirt around my waist, having mace and a self-defense tool on my purse visible to potential attackers, checking my back seat, not wearing headphones, the list goes on. That is the peace of mind that I get out of it. But in the moment its happening, the fear is real and looks and comments make my skin crawl.
Men need to understand their effect on women, and need to start hearing that the responsibility needs to shift from women protecting themselves to men treating us like human beings.4 -
Also, to quote the OP:
I guess other than to rant, I’m not sure what kind of support I’m looking for here, other than if anyone else has experienced something similar, and how to move past it.
Talking to other women and telling them they aren't alone and that they aren't crazy or dramatic for thinking we shouldn't have to deal with this helps me move past these experiences.3 -
sammidelvecchio wrote: »To all quoting my post , I agree every human being should know how to defend themselves. And as I mentioned, it is a good idea to help her "feel" safer. But the bigger point, is that even though men aren't on here asking how to be better, they are reading this thread. And they need to understand the dialogue that goes with it. And I for one feel more empowered when I know other women have my back and agree that while yes, we can do a million things to stay safe, and always try harder to stay away from dangerous situations, the ultimate goal is that we shouldn't have to when it comes to unwanted attention from men. And we need to say that out loud more.
And I am not surprised at all OP already practices martial arts. Most of the women I know have taken self-defense. Most of the women I know have put time and money and effort into so many things to give them peace of mind and the feeling of being prepared. Of all the things I have done, they make me feel like IF something happens, I did everything I could to avoid it - taking self defense classes, being extremely aware, walking with friends, never leaving drinks unattended, wearing a shirt around my waist, having mace and a self-defense tool on my purse visible to potential attackers, checking my back seat, not wearing headphones, the list goes on. That is the peace of mind that I get out of it. But in the moment its happening, the fear is real and looks and comments make my skin crawl.
Men need to understand their effect on women, and need to start hearing that the responsibility needs to shift from women protecting themselves to men treating us like human beings.
I think the bolded is the crux of the matter. In my experience, men just don't get how different our experience moving through the world is. I had a conversation with my father once. He's a good man. He was a single dad to 2 teenaged girls, so I'd say he's far more aware of the female experience than most (outnumbered and surrounded is the phrase that comes to mind
). Even so, we were walking back from somewhere in my neighborhood and I told him I never walk through the neighborhood alone at night, I stick to the busy street nearby. He pointed out that I live in a nice neighborhood. I agreed and pointed out that there were still a lot of dark alleyways and big trees and bushes that cast big shadows. He still doubted that I'd get mugged. I had to explain to him that I would LOVE to be mugged in a dark alley....it's being raped and assaulted that I'm more worried about. He was absolutely silent the rest of our walk and when we got home, all he could say was that he'd never thought about that possibility and that he was so sorry that I had to consider that when I'm out places.
I think most men are really good guys, it's just the idea of having to assess risk in just about every situation you come across is completely foreign.
I'm not sure how that gets changed.5 -
sammidelvecchio wrote: »Also, to quote the OP:
I guess other than to rant, I’m not sure what kind of support I’m looking for here, other than if anyone else has experienced something similar, and how to move past it.
Talking to other women and telling them they aren't alone and that they aren't crazy or dramatic for thinking we shouldn't have to deal with this helps me move past these experiences.
I believe the responses like mine came from this part of your post:sammidelvecchio wrote: »While the suggestion to take self-defense type classes seems appropriate, it actually infuriates me.
Making one guy feel like crap for what was IMHO a good suggestion doesn't help anything. I agree that men need to be held responsible for their actions, but I don't see how Mike's post negated that, or deserved being made into an example of what's wrong. I'll add that OP never said it was men who were making all these comments, in fact, the first time I read her post, I assumed she meant comments about her weight loss. I've had plenty of female customers, coworkers, and relatives make comments about my weight and my body that made me feel uncomfortable and self-conscious, in addition to creepy male attention.
Anyway, I don't want to continue to hijack OP's thread, I just think we can make it clear she's not alone and her feelings are valid without jumping someone for their suggestion. I don't think anyone's argument was with the crux of your posts, just the way you derided someone else's suggestion in the process.9 -
I appreciate all the dialog in this post, and I apologize if my suggestion came off in a way like I was trying to put the responsibility on women to be responsible for changing the crappy behavior of men.
To answer the bolded though, I think those who have been on these boards a while can attest that when posts come up (and they do occasionally, although usually they eventually get deleted), where a guy comes with something like "why can't I hit on girls on the gym you should like it that someone is taking interest in you," I'm usually right there calling them out forcefully for all their nonsense. So all the recommendations in the bold are things that I already do incorporate into my life and attempt to do to the best of my ability. But that doesn't mean that I can't always be improving and doing more.
Please know I wasn't attacking you, or ascribing to you bad intentions. My comment was more societal than personal, but I know it probably didn't feel that way. I'm sorry.
We all bring our baggage to these discussions, and women's baggage on this matter tends to be ... a lot.
I think we unintentionally fall into a trap of expecting women to live smaller lives, or lives where they make others of paramount importance. Which feeds in to men thinking that this attendance to them is a want as opposed to a burden
When I was in my late teens and early 20s, I had a habit of long walks at night. I'm a night owl with a tendency for insomnia -- while this is much improved in general, I didn't sleep last night for more than a restless hour or so. Anyhow, I loved these walks. Smelling the lilac bushes, enjoying the quiet, using elaborate twist and turns of streets like a maze. It was this really healthy, freeing, thing I did.
I knew, of course, that this was considered "risky" behavior, but that was very abstract.
One night, I'm walking home along a cross street. I'd been at the 7-11. While this was a busy street during the day, this is 2 or 3am, maybe later, so traffic is very light. It's one of the reasons I liked these walks, the sense that everyone else was asleep. A pick up truck drives by, and I notice it on some level, but think nothing of it. Until a minute or so later, it goes back the other way, kinda slow. And then it happens again.
I've actually reached my street, and I know the driver sees me start down it, and so I dive into a back yard about three houses in. And the pick up truck goes by, down my residential street. Eventually, I run home.
I don't think I consciously knew the seed this planted, but it grew over time. Eventually, I met my husband who really hated that I went for these walks. He insisted I take a dog with me, which, hey, I love my dogs, but I knew he worried, and that he wouldn't sleep, and the thoughts I had THAT night bubbled up -- self-blame. Stupid, stupid girl. My fault. Reckless. What would people think of me if something bad happened?
It took a few years, but the walks petered away to nothing, and my mental and physical health suffered. Does my husband love me? Yes! Does he want the best for me? For sure. Could I have rescheduled my walks for broad daylight? Yeah. But people who were not be made my world smaller.
Decades later, living in a small town where I'm possibly safer than where I grew up, I am just now giving in to my impulse to go for walks again. Not all night ones, not 3am ones, ones where I stay within a block or two, but walks. And I know I will never get back the feeling I used to have.
I'm not saying I'm old, I've lived my life, and take me out back and shoot me, but I accept I've lost something precious. I just want every generation of girls and women to get to inhabit the biggest world possible.
I know you do too.
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It does infuriate me though. And just like his intention wasn't to try and make women feel responsible for staying safer, mine wasn't to make him feel like crap. And I followed up my comment in the next paragraph stating that it is a good idea to take self-defense classes and it can help people feel safer, I even referenced his name.
I understand most men don't mean any harm when they say things like that, most of the time they have never thought of it from the perspective of a woman and are really trying to help. And that's where the conversation needs to continue to help them understand why it upsets some women to constantly be told to do better. Then they can decide for themselves where to land, but I won't ever hold back sharing my experiences because I might hurt someone's feelings. I have had my feelings hurt on multiple occasions being told how something that came out of my mouth was taken by someone in a different walk of life than me. It stings, but its how we grow. It's how we get one step closer to truly understanding other walks of life, whether its surrounding sexism, racism, LGBTQ issues, or classism etc. I said nothing in a disrespectful way.
But my POV stands, my perfect world is one where this dialogue doesn't even need to be talked about anymore.
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@MichelleMinn thank you for this post, and I am sorry to hear that happened to you. I am glad you are walking again and I wish you every safety possible.
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