Curious about day-to-day CICO in people who are maintaining naturally

paperpudding

Not sure if this is relevant as I have no idea what his CICO numbers are.

But I have shared on here before that my father, now in his late 70's, has been slim all his life without ever in any way consciously trying to lose or maintain weight.

But he does not have a sweet tooth, has drinks unsweetened, very rarely drinks soft drinks ( sodas) eats smallish meals, considers 1 or 2 squares of chocolate an after dinner treat ( not half the block, like I did ) walks places, catches the bus places, which means walking to the bus stop, spends most of day doing active thongs like bowls, ( and other sports when he was younger) gardening, DIY projects, does not own a computer or a mobile phone, rarely watches TV.

Doesn't take a lot of imagination to realise this sort of lifestyle will lead to 'naturally' maintaining a healthy weight.

lemurcat2

I'm not sure I understand the question, but my sister maintains "naturally," and she eats a pretty similar diet from day to day. She sometimes works out and sometimes not (probably 4-5x/per) so burns more on those days, she walks a lot naturally, so that varies from day to day some, and she occasionally goes out to eat or eats more on holidays. But I really don't think she has major swings in TDEE from week to week.

She also IS conscious of what she's eating and, especially, of minor weight gain and will immediately cut back a little.

oat_bran

PAV8888 wrote: »

After a considerable effort to lose weight and a couple of years more or less maintaining, I've found that I actually *am* _aware_ as to whether I have eaten enough or not, and that my body also does regulate ittself a bit by prompting me to be more, or less active based on recent energy balance!

That said... I am also, personally, extremely good at ignoring any and all such cues for a variety of reasons. Or forgetting what happened yesterday.

A friend of mine is perfectly willing to put down his fork or spoon in the middle of delectable food consumption just because he is no longer hungry. I rely on logging instead....

As to the variance it would be hard to measure for people who don't log

Personally, nowadays, being ~30% over calories on one day (and depending on timing) usually means I start my next day with less desire to eat and perhaps more energy. I can't say that I feel a difference when I am 5% or 10% over

This is really interesting! Thanks for going in such detail. This is what I heard as well. People have told me, they simply feel less hungry if they ate more than usual one day and so they don't feel like eating as much the next day. Or that they crave an extra snack or a bigger dinner if they exercised.

I am not good in terms of being able to tell how much to eat, but if I go over my TDEE by a lot (I can tell based on my fitbit), I really feel the need to move usually. I would need to go for a walk or a short run at least or I won't feel well.

It's really interesting what you say about where you tend to feel that difference and how been those deficit/surplus flactuations can usually be. This is what I was curious about. The 5-10% difference,I imagine, is probably quite common. This probably evens out eventually in some people or leads to those weight flactuations a lot of people have depending on the season etc. Or in some cases leads to gradual weight gain until people realize it and gave to cut down on their calories consciously.

amusedmonkey

When I first started dieting, I was weight stable (as far as I know. going by clothes). I was maintaining a higher weight, of course, but the same nuances apply. I remember simply writing down the food I ate daily for about a week without changing anything just to see how I usually eat and what can be changed. I used a scale to weigh my food because it was the easiest way to record it. I wasn't tainted by calorie awareness yet, so it really did roughly represent how I ate. After about a week, I started looking for an app that would help me calculate calories, and out of curiosity, I logged all the foods I had written down. There was a variation of about 700 calories in my intake between the highest and the lowest day. My activity was roughly the same (I didn't move much). My average was close to my expected maintenance, slightly lower. For me, personally, my activity is more affected by what else I do rather than by how much I eat.

I don't think any weight stable person has the exact same caloric balance every day. There are higher and lower days, and there could be temporary trends towards deficit or surplus from time to time which causes micro fluctuations in their actual maintenance weight, but they generally average closer to their maintenance range calories, some have wild calorie fluctuations that average to a healthy maintenance, others only have minimal fluctuations.

I don't think "eating to hunger" or "being mindful" are explicit strategies used by people who are naturally weight stable at a healthy weight unless they start getting uncomfortable with their weight. They're more like strategies we, fat people, use to mimic what those who are weight stable at a healthy weight do. Have you never seen a thin friend or family member indulge because the food is good? Or complain that they overate and now feel bloated? Many of these people aren't really mindful and don't govern themselves with hunger rules. They can be hungry but not feel like eating, they can eat beyond satiety (if they're physically capable, some aren't), they can eat hedonically, they can "forget" to eat or feel like it's a chore, they're basically like us - people who do what comes naturally to them. The only difference is that our current habits that come naturally to us promote a balance in the overweight or obese range, while their natural habits promote a balance in the healthy range.

I still think observing them is interesting because it helps me mimic some of the things they do. It may never come naturally to me, but I have tools to make it sustainable. My ex, for example, was very thin. Sometimes I had to remind him to eat when at home, but he could eat a lot when we went out. I mimic that by eating less, when possible, if I have nothing special planned in order to indulge more when I have something special planned. Another friend just doesn't like to feel full. She doesn't mindfully think about her hunger and fullness, it's just that discomfort avoidance wins no matter how good a food is. I have to mimic that but mindfully noticing my fullness cues when appropriate (sometimes I eat over fullness and don't mind doing that if I planned for it or leave a meal a little bit hungry if I'm saving calories). It doesn't come naturally to me, but if being aware of my actions produces favorable results, then I'll take it.

sijomial

My son maintains at a healthy weight without considering calories or weighing himself - if that's what you mean by "natural" ?

But neither he or myself could estimate his calories, in fact if you asked a cross section of people if he eats a lot of a little you would get a massive range of responses.

If you worked with him (hard physical construction job) and saw him go through the entire working day on maybe a glass of milk and some PB on the way out of the door early in the morning and see him get through a day of construction work just on water you would assume he eats little. But if you went out for a meal with him when he's hungry (or Dad is paying!!) you would be astounded at how much food he can put away and think "it's not fair he eats so much and stays slim".

He has a tendency to eat more on very high caloric output days (either work or exercise) but also is an opportunistic eater - if it's available he will eat. If it's a chore to prepare or get then he's not bothered. For example he would get home from work hungry but if there's nothing grab-and-go available he will just defer eating until the next meal time.
His days of a massive intake are actually more likely on a non-working / non-exercise day when he has more time and opportunity, or someone to cook for him.

For people who have struggled with their weight perhaps the things to take away are that some people don't need a regular eating pattern or structure, they can enjoy their food but aren't driven by it, can recognise hunger but aren't compelled to eat by it and probably the most generally useful lessons are that a physical job / high activity and exercise can make weight control far easier and you don't have to fuel high expenditure immediately.

AnnPT77

oat_bran wrote: »

kshama2001 wrote: »

I'm confused about the bolded. You can get an approximation of the CI of someone who is sedentary and maintaining by plugging their stats into MFP here https://www.myfitnesspal.com/account/change_goals_guided and selecting Maintain my current weight.

But I don't know how this would help you in any way?

I went back to reread my post trying see where it may sounded like I was asking advice about maintaining and I didn't find anything. I'm not asking for advice. I'm not even trying to maintain right now. I am simply curious. And not about how much any given person needs to eat to maintain. This is easily done with any TDEE calculator. I am wondering what a person's day to day deficit/surplus could be, OK? Say 2300 in/2500 out one day, 2200 in/2100 out the next etc. That kind of stuff. And of course there is no way to know for sure! This is why I was asking for estimates. Again, out of pure curiosity about the human body.

The bolded is not strictly true, at an individual level. The calculators tend to be close for most people, further off for a few. It's just a statistical estimate based on a small handful of variables, and reality is more nuanced.

That aside, the one thing I'd add is that appears to me that my resting heart rate tends to be a few beats higher (as measured by my fitness tracker) on the day after a major overindulgence. I haven't done disciplined monitoring of this, but from casual observation, it seems to be so. I'm not talking a huge difference, just maybe 3-5bpm, even with a large calorie difference (1000+). I suppose I could start tracking RHR as a function of the previous day's calorie level, and see if it holds up to closer scrutiny.

PAV8888

AnnPT77 wrote: »

oat_bran wrote: »

kshama2001 wrote: »

I'm confused about the bolded. You can get an approximation of the CI of someone who is sedentary and maintaining by plugging their stats into MFP here https://www.myfitnesspal.com/account/change_goals_guided and selecting Maintain my current weight.

But I don't know how this would help you in any way?

I went back to reread my post trying see where it may sounded like I was asking advice about maintaining and I didn't find anything. I'm not asking for advice. I'm not even trying to maintain right now. I am simply curious. And not about how much any given person needs to eat to maintain. This is easily done with any TDEE calculator. I am wondering what a person's day to day deficit/surplus could be, OK? Say 2300 in/2500 out one day, 2200 in/2100 out the next etc. That kind of stuff. And of course there is no way to know for sure! This is why I was asking for estimates. Again, out of pure curiosity about the human body.

The bolded is not strictly true, at an individual level. The calculators tend to be close for most people, further off for a few. It's just a statistical estimate based on a small handful of variables, and reality is more nuanced.

That aside, the one thing I'd add is that appears to me that my resting heart rate tends to be a few beats higher (as measured by my fitness tracker) on the day after a major overindulgence. I haven't done disciplined monitoring of this, but from casual observation, it seems to be so. I'm not talking a huge difference, just maybe 3-5bpm, even with a large calorie difference (1000+). I suppose I could start tracking RHR as a function of the previous day's calorie level, and see if it holds up to closer scrutiny.

I will concur that usually with deficit or overage, especially persistent, my Fitbit resting HR seems to track.

In fact I will say that if I'm averaging below ~63 for resting there will eventually exist trendweight downward movement and, almost invariably, if I'm averaging above ~67 there will be some upward movement. In between it's more of a muddle even for me.

Yesterday I had an unexpected Canada Day fireworks extra dinner... so I ended up a full 1200 Cal above where I planned to be (~37.5% overage). Fitbit resting HR, checked per Ann's prompting, is up 2 to 64!!!

Can't say that the wine and ekmek calories are working an extra satiety miracle today even though I do feel "perky"!!!! 🤣😝

AnnPT77

Forgot to mention another feature of over-maintenance overeating now: More and bigger hot flashes!

I don't remember this happening on extra-big eating days when I was obese. (And I'd already been in menopause for over a decade by then . . . but that might be just a memory problem ).