Am I really committing a crime against humanity?
Replies
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Me too. I’m ruthless when it comes to bodily autonomyglovepuppet wrote: »I'm an all or nothing kinda person. Either you respect my right to autonomy over all of my body, or I have nothing to do with you.
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You don’t owe anyone an explanation so stop explaining yourself.
“Would you like some of this?”
“No, thank you.”
“It’s just a bite, it won’t hurt you.”
Look them directly in the eye and firmly say, “No, thank you.”
If you refuse to argue/debate/explain they’ve really got nothing to work with. If they persist you can point out how rude they’re being when you’ve clearly said no. Or you can simply walk away.
As far as addiction to “junk food” like anything else it becomes mind over matter. There are people who just aren’t moderators but success with weight loss and maintenance comes from balance. It’s unrealistic to think you will never eat a cookie or piece of pie again. If you never allow it you will always cave and binge eventually. I’m not saying you have to work it in daily but if you give yourself permission to indulge on occasion the urge to dive head first into a binge will slowly fade. Knowing you CAN have it but choose not to is far better mentally than telling yourself you can NEVER have it.11 -
You don’t owe anyone an explanation so stop explaining yourself.
“Would you like some of this?”
“No, thank you.”
“It’s just a bite, it won’t hurt you.”
Look them directly in the eye and firmly say, “No, thank you.”
If you refuse to argue/debate/explain they’ve really got nothing to work with. If they persist you can point out how rude they’re being when you’ve clearly said no. Or you can simply walk away.
As far as addiction to “junk food” like anything else it becomes mind over matter. There are people who just aren’t moderators but success with weight loss and maintenance comes from balance. It’s unrealistic to think you will never eat a cookie or piece of pie again. If you never allow it you will always cave and binge eventually. I’m not saying you have to work it in daily but if you give yourself permission to indulge on occasion the urge to dive head first into a binge will slowly fade. Knowing you CAN have it but choose not to is far better mentally than telling yourself you can NEVER have it.
This. If I tell myself "I'm not allowed to eat that." I'll eventually have a mini binge whenever I get ahold of that. But if I tell myself "I'm not eating that right now, maybe later" I wont be as likely to binge on it. It's a total mental game, but it helps me greatly to know I'm allowed to eat the junky thing, but not right now.
Some effective responses for me have been (escpecially if No Thanks isn't working):
"Oh I really appreciate the offer, but I'm not hungry. I would love to, but I have no room from what I ate earlier"
" I'm trying to be good, so I'm not going to eat that today. But thank you I really appreciate it."
" I would love to, but when I eat that stuff I get an upset stomach."
Showering them in gratitude and then being firm in my "no" seems to help them seem less offended and concerned.
Maybe as an activity to help you for the future when you feel comfortable re-introducing your trigger foods, is to keep a journal about it. Write down what you ate- how it made you feel, and if you binge on it, write about what you were thinking and feeling at the time. Maybe it will help you gain insight to prevent future binges on the stuff you consider junk. Heck- start that journal now. Write about your goals and what you hope to achieve with your current way of eating. Review it when times get tough. And when times get tough write about that too. Just having a mind dump no matter what it is can be greatly theraputic.
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Learning to be firm with people who aren't diet-supportive is really difficult. I have been struggling with this issue with a particular person for a long time and couldn't find a way to successfully manage the problem. Finally I had to lay down the law, as in "Look, I am on a F'ing diet and you have got to get on board and be supportive. Don't put temptations in front of someone who's easily tempted. Be a FRIEND." I then had to repeat that speech another three or four times but now the message is finally getting through. Sometimes you have to really bring the hammer down to get people to tune in. Yes, it can cause hurt feelings temporarily. Hurt feelings are better than Diabetes.
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Lots of good suggestions here on how to say no and stand up for yourself.
One more thought. Minefields and all, social events with food are part of our culture. I suggest you take a bowl of food to share, like a large bowl of mixed fruit or something else you can enjoy. I do that as a vegetarian.
If you're eating something, anything, it makes you seem more like you're taking part in the event. You're less likely to attract unwanted attention.
Good luck!5 -
WinoGelato wrote: »Certainly for some people, abstaining can be a more sustainable choice than moderating.
That said - you keep using a blanket phrase of “Junk Food” to describe your problem foods and that’s really hard to ascertain what you mean. That’s such a broad and sweeping classifications, it would be like telling people you are eating “healthy food” and expecting them to know exactly what you mean.
So what is in your definition of junk food? From your post it sounds like you are talking specifically about sweets - you mention pies, cakes, chocolate.... it can be helpful to narrow down exactly what it is that you have difficulty moderating. Most people, when pressed, realize that it’s not ALL sweets but that it’s something like ice cream or Oreos or a specific candy that they have self control issues. And then other types of sweets, really aren’t so difficult to control. So is that the situation here?
You also use the phrase “junk food addiction” and liken it to drug and alcohol abuse. That’s the thing again- junk food isn’t addictive. There is no single ingredient in such a broad classification that would be consistent and cause a physiological dependency. But again, some foods, some situations, can create emotional feelings for people that make it difficult to control. Pinpointing those foods and those situations can be helpful in learning how to cope.
Who are the people who are saying these things to you? Are they family members? Friends? Coworkers? This seems like an excessive amount of attention on what someone else is eating.
Here's more on that: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-happiness-project/201210/are-you-abstainer-or-moderator
When dealing with temptation, I often see the advice, “Be moderate. Don’t have ice cream every night, but if you try to deny yourself altogether, you’ll fall off the wagon. Allow yourself to have the occasional treat, it will help you stick to your plan.”
I’ve come to believe that this is good advice for some people: the “moderators.” They do better when they avoid absolutes and strict rules.
For a long time, I kept trying this strategy of moderation–and failing. Then I read a line from Samuel Johnson, who said, when someone offered him wine: “Abstinence is as easy to me as temperance would be difficult.”
Ah ha! Like Dr. Johnson, I’m an “abstainer.”
I find it far easier to give something up altogether than to indulge moderately. When I admitted to myself that I was eating my favorite frozen yogurt treat very often–two and even three times a day–I gave it up cold turkey. That was far easier for me to do than to eat it twice a week. If I try to be moderate, I exhaust myself debating, “Today, tomorrow?” “Does this time ‘count’?” “Don’t I deserve this?” etc. If I never do something, it requires no self-control for me; if I do something sometimes, it requires enormous self-control.
There’s no right way or wrong way–it’s just a matter of knowing which strategy works better for you. If moderators try to abstain, they feel trapped and rebellious. If abstainers try to be moderate, they spend a lot of precious energy justifying why they should go ahead and indulge.19 -
WinoGelato wrote: »I doubt the op needs therapy.
Actually many here who have struggled with out of control eating have benefited significantly from Cognitive Behavior Therapy.
@kshama2001 usually has a lot of helpful advice and references for these type of situations.
This?
Sometimes people avoid therapy because they think it will be years and years about talking about your childhood. That's Freudian, not Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
This book on Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for overeating was available in my library system, so perhaps yours as well.
The Beck Diet Solution: Train Your Brain to Think Like a Thin Person
Can thinking and eating like a thin person be learned, similar to learning to drive or use a computer? Beck (Cognitive Therapy for Challenging Problems) contends so, based on decades of work with patients who have lost pounds and maintained weight through Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT). Beck's six-week program adapts CBT, a therapeutic system developed by Beck's father, Aaron, in the 1960s, to specific challenges faced by yo-yo dieters, including negative thinking, bargaining, emotional eating, bingeing, and eating out. Beck counsels readers day-by-day, introducing new elements (creating advantage response cards, choosing a diet, enlisting a diet coach, making a weight-loss graph) progressively and offering tools to help readers stay focused (writing exercises, to-do lists, ways to counter negative thoughts). There are no eating plans, calorie counts, recipes or exercises; according to Beck, any healthy diet will work if readers learn to think differently about eating and food. Beck's book is like an extended therapy session with a diet coach. (Apr.)12 -
I'm sorry that the people around you aren't supporting you on your journey. Wayne Dyer said "you get treated in life the way you teach people to treat you". It's so true. I've experienced it first hand.
If I were in your shoes I would tell them outright that I feel hurt by their comments, that achieving weight loss is important to me and that I would appreciate they either support me or stop the commentary.
Good luck!7 -
You don’t owe anyone an explanation so stop explaining yourself.
“Would you like some of this?”
“No, thank you.”
“It’s just a bite, it won’t hurt you.”
Look them directly in the eye and firmly say, “No, thank you.”
If you refuse to argue/debate/explain they’ve really got nothing to work with. If they persist you can point out how rude they’re being when you’ve clearly said no. Or you can simply walk away.
[snip].
This was what I was going to suggest - picking a phrase and repeating it until they get the point and stop. It has worked well for me, even with really difficult people.
With less difficult people, like my mother, who is just being a food pusher because she believes it is the polite thing to do, I might offer an explanation, "No thanks, I am saving room for X*."
I do eat X later, but you don't have to.
* In this case it is the famous peach cobbler than someone makes every year for the 4th. Mom totally gets me saving room for that and stops pushing other food.1 -
You don’t owe anyone an explanation so stop explaining yourself.
“Would you like some of this?”
“No, thank you.”
“It’s just a bite, it won’t hurt you.”
Look them directly in the eye and firmly say, “No, thank you.”
If you refuse to argue/debate/explain they’ve really got nothing to work with. If they persist you can point out how rude they’re being when you’ve clearly said no. Or you can simply walk away.
As far as addiction to “junk food” like anything else it becomes mind over matter. There are people who just aren’t moderators but success with weight loss and maintenance comes from balance. It’s unrealistic to think you will never eat a cookie or piece of pie again. If you never allow it you will always cave and binge eventually. I’m not saying you have to work it in daily but if you give yourself permission to indulge on occasion the urge to dive head first into a binge will slowly fade. Knowing you CAN have it but choose not to is far better mentally than telling yourself you can NEVER have it.
I've been practicing the firm, polite, and disarming dismissal. Basically, I say some form of, "No, I'm good, but THANK YOU SO MUCH," with emphasis on the sincerity of the thank-you. What I try to project is a feeling of "you are an amazing person for offering me this food, I don't deserve your kindness". By humbling myself, I'm trying to still give them the "good feels" of offering the food to me without actually taking it, because for many, that's all they're looking for. It might weird them out a little, but it's the perfect distraction from the fact that I didn't actually take the food.9 -
I think some people who know they should be eating healthier take it as judgement when you make the right choices. But's that's in their own heads, and not something you can control anyways. I'm an all or nothing type person as well, and cutting things out is easier than moderation for me for now. I'm doing Keto, and boy do people have opinions about that. I've had to say a couple of times that I'm giving it a try and it's my body so it's my decision. It's made things tense but at least it stops the conversation. If someone tells me I should be eating something that's not a part of my plan I usually star by saying no thanks, I'm not feeling like cake (or whatever today), but I wouldn't mind another glass of water/ piece of cheese (or whatever I brought.) At the end of the day, you get to control what goes into your body.1
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You're not committing a crime against humanity, but you are taking things too seriously because you're looking at the way people act through your own eyes, not their's. Understanding why people do what they do will help put your mind at ease and you won't feel so demoralized every time someone does something that seems against your current choices.
- People don't understand different. When you're doing things differently, they look at you through their own eyes and see you as someone who is abstaining from all joy. Food is a source of joy for many people, especially the foods they like and know you used to like. It's hard for them to understand why you would deprive yourself like that, just like it's hard for you to understand why they would push food like that.
- People don't like change. If the way you're currently eating is causing a change in a comfortable routine, like when going out or celebrating, it makes other people uncomfortable. Just like you are uncomfortable with them eating cake in front of you, they're also uncomfortable with you not eating cake with them.
- People sometimes say no to things they want out of politeness, so when you say no, they assume you might be saying no out of politeness and they try to ask again to make sure you really don't want it.
- People express love and celebration with food. It has been part of the human ritual since we first developed rituals. Not participating in food ritual goes against what we are naturally driven to do, so it makes others feel awkward when you don't participate, and they try to alleviate that uncomfortable feeling by trying to push you to participate.
- People see "healthy food" differently. Some may consider a pie unprocessed, others may consider it processed, and some may believe healthy eating has nothing to do with food processing. People offer you what they feel is healthy when they hear you're trying to eat healthily. They're most probably being nice, not malicious, and it takes them by surprise when you retaliate against an offense they didn't even know they made.
Basically, other people are just like us. They have their own inner world, thoughts, beliefs, feelings...etc. They're not out to get us. When you understand that, their actions don't have as much of an effect on you. They're just like you, they want to feel positive feelings and want to avoid negative feelings. I have made some choices that are against the grain (not food related, I'm pretty much mainstream with my eating), and it caused some pushback, nagging, comments...etc. I try to be kind because they simply don't understand my choices. It's not their fault because my choices are not typical so it makes them uncomfortable. I can't handle their "uncomfortableness" for them, that's their business, but I can control how I let the comments affect me knowing what I know about human behavior.26 -
I agree how annoying it is. It is also annoying that every single thing (birthday every day of december and january, dog had a birthday, you name it) at my work seems to be cause to bring in massive amounts of high calorie food and "indulge". I've learned to just accept the food sometimes. I just take a piece and don't end up eating it. Most of the time no one ends up noticing, but they stop bugging me, lol.1
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Amused monkey made a really good post - expanding on what I said before - stop seeing it as people sabotaging you or not being supportive - and see they do mean to be nice and helpful (most of them most of the time)
Further to this, I think being nice but firm back works better than making defensive high horse replies - especially in social events, work places, etc - you do want to get on with these people, not have food cause friction and disharmony.
"pretending to fit in" works well too - I often say I'll take a small piece for later - and then sometimes I do take it, (may or may not actually eat it at home, nobody would know) sometimes I 'forget' to take it. Mostly people don't notice anyway.
Sometimes I will have a 'fit in alternative' - no, no desert for me, just a coffee please - as someone said upthread, just having something sometimes is enough for other people to back off
and 'accepting your weirdness' (cant think of better way to put that) - I know, no cake, what sort of party person am I, LOL - works better than arguing the point about how processed foods (or whatever) are no good for you.
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I guess I am able to get away with my healthy lifestyle habits simply because I don't give a crap what other people think or say about them. I know I'm doing what's best for me. I do what I want and very few people give me any sass about it. That's probably because I say "no thanks" with confidence. They know I don't care what they think. My priorities outweigh their "good intentions" every time. So even if you do really care what other people think, just pretend like you don't. Just do what you need/want to do, and let their opinions be their problem. Eventually, you really will start to not care what they think. Soon you'll realize that what matters most is what YOU think.
ETA: And I don't mean you have to be a jerk about it. Just be polite and confident in your convictions. People respect confidence.8 -
I do actually see it as being unsupportive and possibly trying to subconsiously sabotage you. I think often people have us pigeon holed and don't like us breaking out of that. Also if any of them have issues with their weight they might feel defensive when you say that you're cutting certain food out to be healthy, like you are indirectly criticising them.
I have BED, and I absolutely cannot moderate certain 'treat' food. Since February I have lost weight by totally cutting out cake, sweets, chocolate, biscuits and crisps. I don't know if I'll ever be able to eat these foods again without binging so for the moment they are off limits to me.
With your relatives I would limit any explanation to a minimum. "Have some cake that I made specially for you!" "Thank you but I don't want cake at the moment. It looks yummy though I'm sure X would love some!" Keep saying no thank you. If they keep pushing walk away and remove yourself from the situation. If you keep giving in they will not take you seriously and just think if they push you enough you will eat it!
Good luck.10 -
Thank you so much everyone for all of your comments and support. I really appreciate it. There have been some good answers suggested that I can use and yes I do take things to heart as I am a sensitive person.
Perhaps I should have explained things better. When I say I want to eat healthily and cut out the junk food, the kind of food I would like to eat is - fruit, veg, lean meat, non dairy except greek yoghurt (dairy usually gives me cramps but oddly greek yoghurt doesn't), nuts, seeds, lentils, plant protein, that kind of thing. I suppose you could say more like its natural state. So when I say junk food I mean stuff you would tend to get out of a box or packet or stuff made with flour (bloats me) or added sugar (gives me pain) or salt (bloats me) etc for instance - crisps, biscuits, sweets, puddings, cakes, sausage rolls, pies, sausages, bread, fried food etc. I'm not just wanting to quit this food for the sake of it, the main reason is for my health and the way they make me feel. When I mentioned about losing that weight and feeling like a new person when I stuck to it for a few months at the start of my 1st post, it really did make me feel so much better. I have a skin complaint and that almost cleared up to the point of people asking me what I had done to get my skin looking so clear, I get knee pain and other joint pain when I eat sugar and because I cut that out, the pain all disappeared. I had the energy to exercise, my constant headaches disappeared. My bloating disappeared and there was a whole host of things that quitting what I call junk food helped to cure for me. That's the main reason why I associate healthy food (food close to its natural state mainly) with feeling better and feeling good.
So I have first hand experience of why quitting out the junk food is beneficial for me. It's not just what I am led to believe, it's what I have experienced myself. In reality it would be nice to get to a stage where I can just have the odd bit of junk food at christmas or birthdays or meals out but it will take a lot of effort to get to that stage. I know once I have lost all the weight I need to and feel much healthier, then i will be able to reach that stage.
My parents are obsessed with food. Food is central to their lives. They eat humongous portions too. So they offer me food as a way of giving me love. But I tell them there are other ways to make me feel loved but in the end it always boils down to food. My mother in law is just as bad except she is the one who is always telling everyone I am on a diet when I turn things down. I have to correct her by telling her that I'm not on a diet, I have changed my lifestyle to improve my health and get rid of my pain. She understands then but my parents I don't think will ever understand. I am always polite when I turn things down but my parents are the kind of people who bombard you with the 20 questions. They have always been like that and my mum is the worst of them both. It's just the way they are!
I live with my partner but my parents often pop round or we pop to theirs and usually when they pop round they bring cakes etc. I tell them not to as I am not eating it and to spend the money on themselves instead but it tends to fall on deaf ears. Sometimes I give the items to my partners family if they refuse to take it back with them. I'm not uncomfortable with others eating junk food in front of me - I managed to resist giving in to temptation when my partner ate pizza or bacon etc in front of me but when people make snide remarks about my partner deliberately taking what I won't eat back to mine and eating it in front of me to show me how good it is because I have turned it down, surely that's not a normal thing to say to someone who is struggling with food?
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And looking at the link someone posted about being an abstainer vs a moderator, I am definitely an abstainer2
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It is not woo for me. I have quit these unhealthy foods in the past and have felt much better for it especially with losing the pain and feeling healthier in myself. Why is this so wrong?
Sugar is addictive. As is salt, at least for me anyway. I can't stop at 2 bags of crisps for instance because I am addicted to the salty taste,. nor can I stop at 1 bag of sweets or a couple of slices of cake for instance because I am addicted to sugar. I am addicted to salt and sugar, especially sugar in a BIG way. When I abstain from sugary or sweet food, I lose my cravings for them. I lose my addiction.
The pie I was referring to was shop bought, it was not homemade. I'm sure a lot of fat, sugar and salt goes in to them.20 -
Your all or nothing thinking shows throughout your post. It is a cognitive distortion because it alters your perception of reality. Foods are healthy or junk, people are either supporting you or sabotaging you, etc.
The problem is that all or nothing thinking is a cognitive distortion. Sure, it can seem to make things easier when you reduce everything to a binary way of thinking. The problem is that, in doing so, you aren't able to see all of the possibilities that exist in those shades of gray between the two choices on which you focus.
It makes your attempts to lose weight so much more difficult than it needs to be, because perfection = success and anything less than perfection = failure. In this context, I can see why the stress level of these situations is so magnified for you. If you don't follow your rules 100% of the time, you are a complete failure and you might as well eat with complete abandon.
Another difficulty that all or nothing thinking will cause for you is that you have a vague plan of incorporating some of this junk food in moderation after you have reached your goal weight. This is a feature of traditional diet plans, not so much a true lifestyle change. If you aren't learning how to incorporate various foods in moderation as you are losing weight, the idea that you will be able to incorporate those foods into your eating once you are trying to maintain your weight is magical thinking.
You can control your thinking. I think the suggestion of reading The Beck Diet Solution is an excellent starting point. In the words of the great philosophers, Twenty-One Pilots, in their classic tome Holding Onto You:
"Fight it, take the pain, ignite it
Tie a noose around your mind
Loose enough to breath fine and tie it
To a tree tell it, you belong to me, this ain't a noose
This is a leash and I have news for you
You must obey me"17 -
OP, first thing you need to re-think is the attitude about food having moralistic qualities of "good" or "bad," "healthy" or "unhealthy." It's just food. There may be foods you prefer to eat (for whatever reason) and foods you don't. That's different.
Next is your insistence on being a true addict. This mindset really needs to be worked on, because with what you are currently doing, I predict that you *will* fail (as you have in the past, apparently) and then blame the sugar or the salt or the 'junk' or the person that 'forced' you to finally break down and eat it because you are, after all, an 'addict.' The problem is that your current mindset casts you in the role of a victim, which, by its very definition, can make you powerless.
Is there a chance some of these family and friends are actually concerned for you? Because if my daughter exhibited the traits you currently are, I sure as heck would be.
With love and concern, I suggest you get some counselling to help put your thoughts and beliefs into a healthier and more realistic perspective. Because this isn't just about food, it usually extends well beyond that. I also second the suggestion to read The Beck Diet Solution. It's a good place for you to start.
Chances are you will likely not take any of this on board right now, because you are too invested in your current role. I get that. But please bookmark this thread so that you can re-read it at some point down the road when you are more receptive to finding a healthier and more sustainable balance and to make a *lasting* change for the better.
I wish you health and happiness.26 -
. My parents are obsessed with food. Food is central to their lives. They eat humongous portions too. So they offer me food as a way of giving me love. But I tell them there are other ways to make me feel loved but in the end it always boils down to food. My mother in law is just as bad except she is the one who is always telling everyone I am on a diet when I turn things down. I have to correct her by telling her that I'm not on a diet, I have changed my lifestyle to improve my health and get rid of my pain. She understands then but my parents I don't think will ever understand. I am always polite when I turn things down but my parents are the kind of people who bombard you with the 20 questions. They have always been like that and my mum is the worst of them both. It's just the way they are!
One thing that stands out to me here is the ' I have to correct her by telling her I'm not on a diet, I'm on a lifestyle change etc.'
Is that the approach you generally take with people??
Because No you don't. You don't have to do that at all.
That is exactly what many posters have been saying - just say a firm but polite No, thank you.
Strarting discussions, explaining,correcting etc just feeds into and extends the drama. That's what I meant before by considering how you are contributing to the problem by your own behaviour.
Quietly but firmly Just say No.
don't encourage argument and dissent and people continuing to push back by correcting them aka trying to prove you are right.
People accept your refusal much better if you are not out to prove them wrong.19 -
PickledBeets8 wrote: »Your all or nothing thinking shows throughout your post. It is a cognitive distortion because it alters your perception of reality. Foods are healthy or junk, people are either supporting you or sabotaging you, etc.
The problem is that all or nothing thinking is a cognitive distortion. Sure, it can seem to make things easier when you reduce everything to a binary way of thinking. The problem is that, in doing so, you aren't able to see all of the possibilities that exist in those shades of gray between the two choices on which you focus.
It makes your attempts to lose weight so much more difficult than it needs to be, because perfection = success and anything less than perfection = failure. In this context, I can see why the stress level of these situations is so magnified for you. If you don't follow your rules 100% of the time, you are a complete failure and you might as well eat with complete abandon.
Another difficulty that all or nothing thinking will cause for you is that you have a vague plan of incorporating some of this junk food in moderation after you have reached your goal weight. This is a feature of traditional diet plans, not so much a true lifestyle change. If you aren't learning how to incorporate various foods in moderation as you are losing weight, the idea that you will be able to incorporate those foods into your eating once you are trying to maintain your weight is magical thinking.
You can control your thinking. I think the suggestion of reading The Beck Diet Solution is an excellent starting point. In the words of the great philosophers, Twenty-One Pilots, in their classic tome Holding Onto You:
"Fight it, take the pain, ignite it
Tie a noose around your mind
Loose enough to breath fine and tie it
To a tree tell it, you belong to me, this ain't a noose
This is a leash and I have news for you
You must obey me"
While I do think a lot of your post may be insightful and helpful, I have to take issue with your insistence that she moderate now. It is simply not true that she needs to moderate now in order to be able to moderate later.
I'd like to be able to moderate Ben & Jerry's ice cream in the future. I cannot now. It is silly for me to keep trying now when I am in a place that I know I will fail. It would be torturous for me to have it in the house. Maybe I'll try again next summer; maybe I won't.
I used to be unable to moderate something else. After a long period of abstention from it, my relationship to it changed and I am now able to moderate it. But it might not have, and in that case I should have continued to abstain. Some people don't need the abstention period and can go straight into moderation.
Re the author's comments below, here on MFP it's the moderators who try hard to convert the abstainers. But I bet in places like OA, it's the reverse.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-happiness-project/201210/are-you-abstainer-or-moderator
...In my experience, both moderators and abstainers try hard to convert the other team. A nutritionist once told me, “I tell my clients to follow the 80/20 rule. Be healthy 80% of the time, indulge within reason, 20% of the time.”
She wouldn’t consider my point of view–that a 100% rule might be easier for someone like me to follow.
People can be surprisingly judgmental about which approach you take. As an abstainer, I often get disapproving comments like, “It’s not healthy to take such a severe approach” or “It would be better to learn how to manage yourself” or “You should be able to have a brownie.”
On the other hand, I want to tell moderators, “You can’t keep cheating and expect to make progress” or “Why don’t you just go cold turkey?”
But different approaches work for different people.9 -
And looking at the link someone posted about being an abstainer vs a moderator, I am definitely an abstainer
You might find Overeater's Anonymous meetings helpful and supportive
I don't personally care for the 12 Step model, but many do find it helpful. I have been to tons of 12 Step meetings, for myself and more for family and friends. When I had a problem with alcohol, I went to a few Smart Recovery and Rational Recovery meetings and resonated with this approach instantly. These are Cognitive Behavioral Therapy based, like the Beck Diet Solution linked on page 2 and mentioned above. RR no longer has in person meetings, but last I checked SR still does.0 -
Just out of curiosity are you underweight or at the low end of a healthy BMI?3
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kshama2001 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »Certainly for some people, abstaining can be a more sustainable choice than moderating.
That said - you keep using a blanket phrase of “Junk Food” to describe your problem foods and that’s really hard to ascertain what you mean. That’s such a broad and sweeping classifications, it would be like telling people you are eating “healthy food” and expecting them to know exactly what you mean.
So what is in your definition of junk food? From your post it sounds like you are talking specifically about sweets - you mention pies, cakes, chocolate.... it can be helpful to narrow down exactly what it is that you have difficulty moderating. Most people, when pressed, realize that it’s not ALL sweets but that it’s something like ice cream or Oreos or a specific candy that they have self control issues. And then other types of sweets, really aren’t so difficult to control. So is that the situation here?
You also use the phrase “junk food addiction” and liken it to drug and alcohol abuse. That’s the thing again- junk food isn’t addictive. There is no single ingredient in such a broad classification that would be consistent and cause a physiological dependency. But again, some foods, some situations, can create emotional feelings for people that make it difficult to control. Pinpointing those foods and those situations can be helpful in learning how to cope.
Who are the people who are saying these things to you? Are they family members? Friends? Coworkers? This seems like an excessive amount of attention on what someone else is eating.
Here's more on that: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-happiness-project/201210/are-you-abstainer-or-moderator
When dealing with temptation, I often see the advice, “Be moderate. Don’t have ice cream every night, but if you try to deny yourself altogether, you’ll fall off the wagon. Allow yourself to have the occasional treat, it will help you stick to your plan.”
I’ve come to believe that this is good advice for some people: the “moderators.” They do better when they avoid absolutes and strict rules.
For a long time, I kept trying this strategy of moderation–and failing. Then I read a line from Samuel Johnson, who said, when someone offered him wine: “Abstinence is as easy to me as temperance would be difficult.”
Ah ha! Like Dr. Johnson, I’m an “abstainer.”
I find it far easier to give something up altogether than to indulge moderately. When I admitted to myself that I was eating my favorite frozen yogurt treat very often–two and even three times a day–I gave it up cold turkey. That was far easier for me to do than to eat it twice a week. If I try to be moderate, I exhaust myself debating, “Today, tomorrow?” “Does this time ‘count’?” “Don’t I deserve this?” etc. If I never do something, it requires no self-control for me; if I do something sometimes, it requires enormous self-control.
There’s no right way or wrong way–it’s just a matter of knowing which strategy works better for you. If moderators try to abstain, they feel trapped and rebellious. If abstainers try to be moderate, they spend a lot of precious energy justifying why they should go ahead and indulge.
One of the most intelligent posts I've seen. I'm a happy abstainer and usually keep that to myself because people who choose to moderate their food tend to jump me. Your post beautifully explains the two approaches.9 -
I think abstention is easier for many people (it's easier for me for some things or at some times, although not always and not with a lot of things, so I think it's wrong to divide people into "abstainers" and "moderators").
However, if someone claims they are an abstainer and also is constantly giving into temptation, and complaining that others offer them food, I think something more is going on. My no snacking approach is, IMO, a form of abstention. If I start snacking I find it hard not to snack when stressed or bored or some appealing food is around, and I think about it a lot. When I don't, I don't, and it makes no difference that there's snack food at my office (or even my house) or that others are snacking or whatever. If someone saying "there's cookies in the break room!" I say "oh, great" and then ignore it and don't claim they are trying to sabotage me or that they even should know or care when I eat. And IME if you don't make a big thing about it no one else notices or cares.
If sticking to your preferred way of eating is a big struggle, other people are not the problem. It could be the chosen way of eating is not realistic (you may not really just be a natural abstainer, but maybe someone who is in an all or nothing mindset)* or that there are other strategies you need to figure out.
*Importantly, I think there's a distinction between being not a natural moderator and the all or nothing thing. I'm not a moderator with Indian food. When I first started I had it about every two weeks and so tried to change my order to fit in my usual eating plan and cals. Wasn't what I wanted. So I instead decided to have it more like every month or so and to eat less that day or have it around a long run or bike and just eat what I want. But I don't eat it like I'm never having it again and am about to start a highly restrictive way of eating so eat like it's my last indulgence ever. That's a different mindset that I think can be fixed, and I think it's what a lot of people mean by not being able to moderate and it's a mindset that can be made much worse by assuming you need to be eating a super restrictive eating pattern.11 -
LOL at some of the people in this thread insisting to OP that she somehow needs to learn to eat sweets and junk food in moderation in order to be healthy and normal (even though she says it's easier to stay on track if she avoids them.) These people sound like the people OP described in her life. They're saying, "Eat the cake! Eat the cake! It won't hurt to take a just a little...(a.k.a. moderation)" But if she doesn't want to eat the cake, why push it on her?
I personally eat all the foods, in moderation, but that doesn't mean everyone needs to. My way is not the only way. It's actually OK if people avoid certain foods or situations that trigger unhealthy responses. I don't think avoiding cakes and cookies is going to harm anyone's health. It doesn't necessarily mean they have an underlying mental issue or eating disorder, either. It's just a different way of managing cravings. As long as she's getting adequate nutrition overall, she should do what she wants. OP can talk to her doctor or see a dietician to talk about whether or not her lifestyle is healthy. 13 -
Your parents sound similar to my mother - huge portions (my husband was shocked the first time he ate at their house), and socializes mainly through food. It doesn’t make life easy. I’m a type 2 diabetic so I have health reasons for not wanting to eat crap. And before I get a bunch of woos for “demonizing foods” I define crap as food that spikes my blood glucose. It may be fine for someone. It’s not fine for me. You don’t have to bend to the woo-givers. If you don’t want to eat certain foods, it is no one else’s business to force you to eat them, moderately, or otherwise.
Some remarks I have had to deal with: “So-and-so is diabetic and she eats all these things. She just takes more insulin.” (That’s not an option for me. My diabetes is controlled through diet and exercise. I don’t have a prescription for insulin. Also, So-and-So is literally dead now, from complications of diabetes.) “It’s your birthday, you can have high blood sugar for one day, it won’t kill you.” (Probably not - although if it’s high enough it might - but having very high blood sugar doesn’t feel nice. It’s my birthday. I don’t want to spend it feeling ill.)
My solution took a while, but I finally got the hang of it. I grew the heck up and stopped relating to my mom as a child. That means I don’t pretend to be polite and I don’t make excuses and I don’t let myself be bullied. No, “thanks for the cake, it looks delicious,” I just put it right into the trash. No going out to restaurants without diabetic friendly options, instead I say “If you’re going there I can’t come, would you rather go here or shall we do something another time?” I no longer eat at her house except on major holidays when I bring enough of my own food to get by. When the discussion turns to critiquing my eating habits and comments such as “You can’t keep this up,” or, “It sounds sad to live like that,” I say, “This is a decision I am making, I prefer my food and enjoy it, and being healthy means I am much happier today than when I was morbidly obese.” Then change the subject.
In order to maintain a relationship with my mother, I have made an effort to do new things with her that don’t involve food, such as seeing movies. We took a road trip to see the house where she grew up. We talk a lot on the phone instead of sitting at restaurants. I went with her to a dance contest and a horse show. It took a while, but I believe our relationship is actually bettter than it was when all we did was eat. And lately instead of insulting me she has been bragging about me and complimenting me.
Stand your ground. It will (probably) get better. But even if it doesn’t if you don’t eat the food they are trying to force on you, you will be happier and healthier.11 -
LOL at some of the people in this thread insisting to OP that she somehow needs to learn to eat sweets and junk food in moderation in order to be healthy and normal (even though she says it's easier to stay on track if she avoids them.) These people sound like the people OP described in her life. They're saying, "Eat the cake! Eat the cake! It won't hurt to take a just a little...(a.k.a. moderation)" But if she doesn't want to eat the cake, why push it on her?
I guess I'm not seeing all the posts telling her to eat cake.
I almost never eat cake because I don't really like it (or at least I'm very picky about it) and also it seems to me a pretty rare thing to be offered. No one cares. (I don't explain that I don't like it or think it's not worth the cals, I just say no thanks. This is more about other foods I don't want since, again, I find cake a rare thing to be offered.)
I do think if she's feeling like it's so, so hard to just say no and is having to explain or justify her choices to everyone that there's something more going on. I am kind of wondering if she's arguing that she cannot eat these foods because they are BAD or unhealthy or whatever and then people are getting defensive and saying "once in a while is okay" or the like. The comment arguing with someone about pie being processed made me wonder about that.
No thanks or "no thanks, I just don't feel good when I eat [whatever], just a personal thing" if you want to explain should be sufficient.10
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