Am I really committing a crime against humanity?
Replies
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paperpudding wrote: »Re the little tangent of not throwing out food because people are starving somewhere else.
My husband, who is over weight, has this thing about eating all the food on his plate, eating the last peice of cake etc so it doesnt get wasted because when he was a child they were hammered with this Eat it all, think of starving children in Africa/India/China/Somewhere
Although rationally, whether he eats the above or throws it out or gives it to the dog make zero difference to anyone else in the world.
If he wanted to do something planned, like not buy packets of biscuits or make some other cost saving change to his diet and donate that money to Savethechildren or similar, that would make sense.
Just not eating or not eating random excess food does not.
Just put less food on your plate. I never leave food, but even now, eating 1250 calories a day, I still manage to stick to my calories.
I lived in a little village in Kashmir for half a year and it really made me appreciate everything we're given. Whether that's food, water, clothes, anything. If everyone lived thinking, oh well, it won't make any difference to the poor starving people out there if I threw this out, then we would all be in trouble. I read an article not long ago about how our wasted food could feed 2 billion starving people. Doesn't that make you feel a little guilty? Maybe one day, who knows, that poor starving person could be us. Buy less, waste less.
The woman didn't have to eat it or give it to a starving person, that's not my point. She should have been firm with her mother and told her no, I'm not taking it. If she still somehow left it, she could have passed it on to the neighbours, or to the homeless, (even in high-income countries there are many homeless around). All those bits of food that are wasted every week, they all add up. Why live like that? It's so unnecessary.
You quoted me to say this. Not sure why you are telling me to put less food on my plate - I didn't say this was an issue for me, I said it is a hard mindset to break for my husband.
And, no, I don't see your rant as making me guilty - excess food I have that gets thrown out - left over birthday cake etc - does not benifit anyone by me or my husband eating it and is not practical to pass on to anyone.
Like I said, donating money or goods in a planned way ( which I do anyway) is beneficial to other people in the world.
Eating random leftover food rather than throwing it out is not.
Fact is doing that won't make any difference to starving people in the world. It's not a cavalier Oh well attitude, it is stating a fact.
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I feel like this thread has turned into a bit of a dumpster fire. Getting back on track - “no” is a complete sentence.12
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It feels like it's a crime to want to be healthy and live a healthy life. I have so many health problems which I know are caused by my unhealthy eating but my loved ones around me seem to be constantly sabotaging it. I have tried to explain about how it's all or nothing for me, that I can't stick to it when I have things in moderation and they don't take a blind bit of notice, they act as though I am committing a crime against humanity as though eating healthy is wrong. There is more to life than food and I want to be the best version of myself but how am I supposed to do that when I am constantly bombarded by criticism or food from my parents? All I want is to let go of my junk food addiction and enjoy life by eating healthily and having the energy to do what makes me happy. Why is that so forbidden in this day and age?
Maybe I should take all the above as a form of motivation so I can stick 2 fingers up to them when I have stuck to healthy eating for many months and am feeling the best I can be. It will certainly give me more confidence to be more assertive and turn things down without causing an argument. Has anyone else come up against this kind of thing from people that are supposed to be supporting them?
You are 100% correct in identifying that these people are trying to sabotage you making changes.
Whether they're conscious of it or not, they are on some level feeling personally challenged by you choosing different behaviours from theirs.
Have you heard of the 'crabs in a bucket' phenomenon? I would wholeheartedly recommend you have a course of CBT to get really firm on your responses to their undermining you - and I greatly admire you taking action to improve your health when others around you aren't. Social pressure is a big deal for us humans (unfortunately).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
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When you are trying your best not to eat something because it will not help with your weight loss, having it constantly placed in front of you or being asked to eat it can be rough. It is kinda like you really do want to eat it but you are choosing and trying not to eat it. But you can be easily swayed by all the pushing.
I have officially become abstinent with soooo many foods. Just started this on Monday (yes, had to restart on a Monday). It seems that if you do not have a certain issue, people just don't understand. Yes, just eating that one doughnut could make me start binging for a week, a month or even a year. Some very wise people wrote great posts here. I copied a lot of it to reread later. It is so much easier to not take that first bite than to resist having the second bite or second or third or fourth portion. And for me, when people talk about good or bad food, for me, I do believe there is a distinction. Bad food - the food that can cause high blood pressure, heart problems, clogged arteries, diabetes etc., foods that are unhealthy for your body - I mean, are we just here to lose weight or are we here to help get a healthy body? I wish for the OP to be firm in her "No thank you".4 -
The practical problem with OP and several other people here, is that actually no, people around you do not want to know your reasons and most certainly there is no way to "win" by explaining them. Because you end up in a debate that makes no sense, and does not serve any purpose. Why justify? What does it change? If you (general you) are comfortable with not eating sweets, alcohol, potatoes, cheese, green food or any item at all, what purpose does it serve to explain why? What difference does it make to explain that you hate the texture, the taste, the smell, that you cannot stop eating once you start, that you had a vision the devil lives in bananas? It just starts a debate, because the other person cannot understand how you can possibly hate the smell of their favourite food, or cannot understand why you cannot resist what to them is just a normal food, or considers your reasons stupid. So what? Just say "no thank you". You might be considered picky, or weird, true. But you will not be considered any less picky or weird if you do explain your reasons, so why start the debate?
IMHO the only time it makes sense to discuss reasons is if it is something like "dear coworker, it is not I hate your cookies, it is I am deatlhy allergic to the almonds in them" so next time the same person does not accidentally e.g. eats almonds next to you. For the rest "no thank you" is enough actually.16 -
It feels like it's a crime to want to be healthy and live a healthy life. I have so many health problems which I know are caused by my unhealthy eating but my loved ones around me seem to be constantly sabotaging it. I have tried to explain about how it's all or nothing for me, that I can't stick to it when I have things in moderation and they don't take a blind bit of notice, they act as though I am committing a crime against humanity as though eating healthy is wrong. There is more to life than food and I want to be the best version of myself but how am I supposed to do that when I am constantly bombarded by criticism or food from my parents? All I want is to let go of my junk food addiction and enjoy life by eating healthily and having the energy to do what makes me happy. Why is that so forbidden in this day and age?
Maybe I should take all the above as a form of motivation so I can stick 2 fingers up to them when I have stuck to healthy eating for many months and am feeling the best I can be. It will certainly give me more confidence to be more assertive and turn things down without causing an argument. Has anyone else come up against this kind of thing from people that are supposed to be supporting them?
You are 100% correct in identifying that these people are trying to sabotage you making changes.
Whether they're conscious of it or not, they are on some level feeling personally challenged by you choosing different behaviours from theirs.
Have you heard of the 'crabs in a bucket' phenomenon? I would wholeheartedly recommend you have a course of CBT to get really firm on your responses to their undermining you - and I greatly admire you taking action to improve your health when others around you aren't. Social pressure is a big deal for us humans (unfortunately).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
People are generally not crabs. If we apply the same logic in reverse, is she trying to sabotage the enjoyment of her family and friends on purpose because if she can't be happy around food, neither can they? It sure looks like it when she is being a party pooper and judging their food choices. But it's not like this, is it? She's simply trying to do what she thinks is right for her. The fact that our choices and actions (or lack of actions) can affect other people, even if it's just a personal choice or a well-meaning comment, is just a side effect of us being a social species. It's not that we sabotage each other, it's that we take the actions of each other as a personal attack and sabotage when the vast majority of the time it isn't. It's easy to mind-read by nature, and it's one of the basic cognitive distortion patterns taught in CBT.23 -
Why is it such a crime to want to change your life?
(omitted for length)
Maybe I should take all the above as a form of motivation so I can stick 2 fingers up to them when I have stuck to healthy eating for many months and am feeling the best I can be. It will certainly give me more confidence to be more assertive and turn things down without causing an argument. Has anyone else come up against this kind of thing from people that are supposed to be supporting them?
Well I am not saying that your approach is wrong but...
Sometimes in our effort and resolve to change our lives we fail to see that we "sometimes" put ourselves above others. Things such as "I eat healthy" said to someone else in a condescending tone is like saying "I eat better than you...I don't eat crap...I wouldn't put that junk in my body". IOW...you can make others feel inferior without meaning to.
Instead of giving someone "2 fingers" why not bring a dessert with you that you can share with others. Why not cook for them and let them "share" a bit of your journey to healthiness. Just remember...it is your journey and not theirs. While losing weight might consume you others might not want it to consume them also.
Give them "2 fingers" if you want...just remember that these people are your friends and family...do you really want to lose them? If you don't care...show them this thread...that might get rid of them for you.
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kshama2001 wrote: »Processed and ultra processed are not the same. Frozen spinach is processed. Whole grain bread is processed, rolled oats are processed, canned tomatoes are processed, cottage cheese is processed, smoked salmon is processed, boneless, skinless chicken breast is processed.
Ironically, the link defines ultraprocessed as microwavable and ready to eat, so would not include the oh so evil homemade pie.
But again not the topic of this thread.
While you are correct that processed and ultra processed are not the same, everyone I know IRL, along with most new posters on MFP, say "processed" when they mean "ultra processed".
This is the first I time I remember seeing the term ultra processed used. The subject was confusing as it was so adding this layer just makes my head hurt.
Really? New posters generally say "processed" when they mean what many MFP regulars understand to be "ultra processed" so I often come along and point this out and drop in the link to the Brazilian definitions. Ultra Processed starts on p 39: http://bvsms.saude.gov.br/bvs/publicacoes/dietary_guidelines_brazilian_population.pdf1 -
Why is it such a crime to want to change your life?
(omitted for length)
Maybe I should take all the above as a form of motivation so I can stick 2 fingers up to them when I have stuck to healthy eating for many months and am feeling the best I can be. It will certainly give me more confidence to be more assertive and turn things down without causing an argument. Has anyone else come up against this kind of thing from people that are supposed to be supporting them?
Well I am not saying that your approach is wrong but...
Sometimes in our effort and resolve to change our lives we fail to see that we "sometimes" put ourselves above others. Things such as "I eat healthy" said to someone else in a condescending tone is like saying "I eat better than you...I don't eat crap...I wouldn't put that junk in my body". IOW...you can make others feel inferior without meaning to.
Instead of giving someone "2 fingers" why not bring a dessert with you that you can share with others. Why not cook for them and let them "share" a bit of your journey to healthiness. Just remember...it is your journey and not theirs. While losing weight might consume you others might not want it to consume them also.
Give them "2 fingers" if you want...just remember that these people are your friends and family...do you really want to lose them? If you don't care...show them this thread...that might get rid of them for you.
This. I take the absolute opposite approach with people that know I am losing weight. Many people have tried to unlock my "secret" based on my food choices. I am always reminding them that my plan requires absolutely no food restrictions but it does have a calorie limit. I want everyone who would like to lose weight to feel that they can do it without unnecessary hardship. Those that need to lose weight will get healthier just by losing it. Minding basic nutrition is important but demonizing a big percentage of a grocery store is just going to make it harder.
Some people do need to limit or abstain from certain foods to make it easier on themselves or because they have medical reasons but that doesn't apply to just anyone who wants to lose.5 -
kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Processed and ultra processed are not the same. Frozen spinach is processed. Whole grain bread is processed, rolled oats are processed, canned tomatoes are processed, cottage cheese is processed, smoked salmon is processed, boneless, skinless chicken breast is processed.
Ironically, the link defines ultraprocessed as microwavable and ready to eat, so would not include the oh so evil homemade pie.
But again not the topic of this thread.
While you are correct that processed and ultra processed are not the same, everyone I know IRL, along with most new posters on MFP, say "processed" when they mean "ultra processed".
This is the first I time I remember seeing the term ultra processed used. The subject was confusing as it was so adding this layer just makes my head hurt.
Really? New posters generally say "processed" when they mean what many MFP regulars understand to be "ultra processed" so I often come along and point this out and drop in the link to the Brazilian definitions. Ultra Processed starts on p 39: http://bvsms.saude.gov.br/bvs/publicacoes/dietary_guidelines_brazilian_population.pdf
I don't often participate in the clean eating debates or threads about processed foods. The people who are preaching it the most are often the people who won't even be doing it in a month or two. I don't believe that it is a path that is very easy to sustain.11 -
kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Processed and ultra processed are not the same. Frozen spinach is processed. Whole grain bread is processed, rolled oats are processed, canned tomatoes are processed, cottage cheese is processed, smoked salmon is processed, boneless, skinless chicken breast is processed.
Ironically, the link defines ultraprocessed as microwavable and ready to eat, so would not include the oh so evil homemade pie.
But again not the topic of this thread.
While you are correct that processed and ultra processed are not the same, everyone I know IRL, along with most new posters on MFP, say "processed" when they mean "ultra processed".
This is the first I time I remember seeing the term ultra processed used. The subject was confusing as it was so adding this layer just makes my head hurt.
Really? New posters generally say "processed" when they mean what many MFP regulars understand to be "ultra processed" so I often come along and point this out and drop in the link to the Brazilian definitions. Ultra Processed starts on p 39: http://bvsms.saude.gov.br/bvs/publicacoes/dietary_guidelines_brazilian_population.pdf
What I find amusing...in the real world (outside MFP) I have never run across anyone that is confused about some of the terminology that is often the center of debate here..."junk food"...processed..."good/bad food". No one seems to care how you phrase things...they all seem to know what these terms mean. I was shocked the first time that I read one of these arguments about those terms...terms that I have heard, used and understood my entire life.
Also...I don't think that whatever terminology that you use doesn't guarantee success or failure.7 -
150poundsofme wrote: »When you are trying your best not to eat something because it will not help with your weight loss, having it constantly placed in front of you or being asked to eat it can be rough. It is kinda like you really do want to eat it but you are choosing and trying not to eat it. But you can be easily swayed by all the pushing.
I have officially become abstinent with soooo many foods. Just started this on Monday (yes, had to restart on a Monday). It seems that if you do not have a certain issue, people just don't understand. Yes, just eating that one doughnut could make me start binging for a week, a month or even a year. Some very wise people wrote great posts here. I copied a lot of it to reread later. It is so much easier to not take that first bite than to resist having the second bite or second or third or fourth portion. And for me, when people talk about good or bad food, for me, I do believe there is a distinction. Bad food - the food that can cause high blood pressure, heart problems, clogged arteries, diabetes etc., foods that are unhealthy for your body - I mean, are we just here to lose weight or are we here to help get a healthy body? I wish for the OP to be firm in her "No thank you".
For most of the health issues you indicated, the best way to improve those conditions, or avoid developing them in the first place is to be at a healthy weight. No one is saying that health and nutrition is unimportant, but the foods themselves don’t cause high blood pressure, heart disease, diabetes, etc. watching your consumption of certain foods when one is already diagnosed is sometimes recommended but again - the single best thing many people can do to improve health markers is to lose weight. Regardless of the foods they choose to consume while doing so.11 -
paperpudding wrote: »Re the little tangent of not throwing out food because people are starving somewhere else.
My husband, who is over weight, has this thing about eating all the food on his plate, eating the last peice of cake etc so it doesnt get wasted because when he was a child they were hammered with this Eat it all, think of starving children in Africa/India/China/Somewhere
Although rationally, whether he eats the above or throws it out or gives it to the dog make zero difference to anyone else in the world.
If he wanted to do something planned, like not buy packets of biscuits or make some other cost saving change to his diet and donate that money to Savethechildren or similar, that would make sense.
Just not eating or not eating random excess food does not.
Yes, as a child I too was brainwashed by my mother about the "starving children in Africa." This was not so much a problem at home, where reasonable portions of balanced meals were served, but did become a problem for me once I left the house and was eating at restaurants, where the portions were quite excessive.
It took a lot of effort on my part to reprogram my brain out of the "Clean Plate Club" mentality.
As you and others have said, me eating excess food or throwing it out makes no actual difference to hungry people. I do try to minimize my own food waste, but more practically, do things like contribute to my churches' food drives, participate in making meals for the homeless, and donate goats https://www.oxfamgifts.com/gifts/donate-goat/ (lots of other ways to donate, but we had goats when I was a kid (pun intended) so I have a fondness for them.)1 -
I also manage anxiety and depression symptoms. My moods have changed drastically due to taking a more proactive approach to being physically healthy. I can say that changing my eating habits and living a more healthy lifestyle is saving my life. What you are doing is not dieting, you are loving yourself. You are teaching yourself healthy habits that will keep you alive and thriving. If you had a child, and that child was sick, you would make sure that child had what they needed to stay healthy and happy. You know that cake and sugary foods taste good, and that they would like these things, but you also know that it would be bad for them. You make it a point not to give them those things because you love them. You are not dieting, you are learning to love yourself. Sometimes, loving yourself means saying, "no".8
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kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Processed and ultra processed are not the same. Frozen spinach is processed. Whole grain bread is processed, rolled oats are processed, canned tomatoes are processed, cottage cheese is processed, smoked salmon is processed, boneless, skinless chicken breast is processed.
Ironically, the link defines ultraprocessed as microwavable and ready to eat, so would not include the oh so evil homemade pie.
But again not the topic of this thread.
While you are correct that processed and ultra processed are not the same, everyone I know IRL, along with most new posters on MFP, say "processed" when they mean "ultra processed".
This is the first I time I remember seeing the term ultra processed used. The subject was confusing as it was so adding this layer just makes my head hurt.
Really? New posters generally say "processed" when they mean what many MFP regulars understand to be "ultra processed" so I often come along and point this out and drop in the link to the Brazilian definitions. Ultra Processed starts on p 39: http://bvsms.saude.gov.br/bvs/publicacoes/dietary_guidelines_brazilian_population.pdf
What I find amusing...in the real world (outside MFP) I have never run across anyone that is confused about some of the terminology that is often the center of debate here..."junk food"...processed..."good/bad food". No one seems to care how you phrase things...they all seem to know what these terms mean. I was shocked the first time that I read one of these arguments about those terms...terms that I have heard, used and understood my entire life.
Also...I don't think that whatever terminology that you use doesn't guarantee success or failure.
To be fair though, I think in the real world most people don't ever think to discuss what they mean by "junk food", "processed", or "bad food". They just use the terms in the way they think they are supposed to, and assume everyone else means the same thing as well. I have found confusion IRL when I have questioned people who are vocal about "eating clean" and avoiding junk food why they include some things and not others, and they usually have no idea why. They start listing the reasons one thing is "junk" and when I point out something they do eat would fall under the same reason, I get a blank stare. And then we start talking about the weather.
However, in general I agree that what you call different food categories doesn't matter too much, unless those categories cause you to over-restrict your diet in a way that makes it difficult for you to succeed, or causes you to avoid the people in your life.
I believe this whole tangent came in because it seemed that part of the OP's problem might be more of a communication problem, and in that case, words can matter. If the people in her life are confused or overwhelmed by her food rules, it may be less sabotage or rudeness, and more genuine confusion and concern. It's always hard to tell though in threads like this, where we only have one person's reading of a complicated situation!5 -
It's always hard to tell though in threads like this, where we only have one person's reading of a complicated situation!
Right. And then they run away because it becomes so pedantic.7 -
150poundsofme wrote: »Bad food - the food that can cause high blood pressure, heart problems, clogged arteries, diabetes etc., foods that are unhealthy for your body - I mean, are we just here to lose weight or are we here to help get a healthy body?
All food, if consumed in excess, can cause these things, as these things are mostly associated with obesity.
Having a healthy diet, by which I mean one that is nutritionally sufficient and calorie appropriate, necessarily includes foods that when overeaten regularly will contribute to obesity. Even if one thinks it is impossible to overeat non-starchy veg (I kind of agree in that I eat as many as I want, usually more than 10 servings, and if I ONLY ate them until full I'd not be over my cals), that doesn't matter, because of course JUST non-starchy veg would not be a healthful diet. A healthful diet will include sources of protein and fat and for most people starchy carbs. It is also quite easy (unless they cause you to binge or whatnot) to include moderate amounts of less nutrient dense foods in a healthful diet.
Thus, while I think there are healthful and non-healthful (good or bad, if you prefer) diets, I don't think foods are really bad or good. It depends on the amount and the other foods being consumed. Broccoli is a nutrient dense food I assume you would consider good. Only broccoli would be a stupid and unhealthy diet. If I am orthorexic and have issues eating anything but the most nutrient dense foods (and think that's non starchy veg), eating more broccoli might be a bad choice, whereas eating a steak or some cheese or some pasta with shrimp and olive oil and pinenuts would be a good choice. If my cals are super low, eating a cookie might also be a better choice, although it wouldn't be my first recommendation.
So to suggest that others eating whatever the foods are that you consider "bad" will cause "high blood pressure, heart problems, clogged arteries, diabetes etc" is not accurate, and suggesting that they don't care about health is not fair or accurate. Indeed, more often than not, I see people who focus mainly on avoiding bad foods eating diets that are quite low in important things like, say, vegetables or fats or protein, depending on the person. Overall diet is what's important, not whether or not someone occasionally eats ice cream.
Again, I'm talking about this because you made claims about nutrition and health. I get that some must avoid trigger foods, at least for a while, and if certain foods are your trigger foods they may be "bad" for you. They are not "bad" for all, whatever the amount, whatever the rest of the diet, and for many people thinking of them as "bad, off-limit" foods may make things harder and CAUSE the situation where eating just one means you are "off your diet and eating badly" and then saying to kitten with the rest of the day I'll eat whatever I want until I'm back on plan, since I already screwed up today. Often thinking you can never have something ever again makes moderation harder. Not saying this is true for you, but it's why bad/good thinking can be counterproductive for many.8 -
kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Processed and ultra processed are not the same. Frozen spinach is processed. Whole grain bread is processed, rolled oats are processed, canned tomatoes are processed, cottage cheese is processed, smoked salmon is processed, boneless, skinless chicken breast is processed.
Ironically, the link defines ultraprocessed as microwavable and ready to eat, so would not include the oh so evil homemade pie.
But again not the topic of this thread.
While you are correct that processed and ultra processed are not the same, everyone I know IRL, along with most new posters on MFP, say "processed" when they mean "ultra processed".
This is the first I time I remember seeing the term ultra processed used. The subject was confusing as it was so adding this layer just makes my head hurt.
Really? New posters generally say "processed" when they mean what many MFP regulars understand to be "ultra processed" so I often come along and point this out and drop in the link to the Brazilian definitions. Ultra Processed starts on p 39: http://bvsms.saude.gov.br/bvs/publicacoes/dietary_guidelines_brazilian_population.pdf
What I find amusing...in the real world (outside MFP) I have never run across anyone that is confused about some of the terminology that is often the center of debate here..."junk food"...processed..."good/bad food". No one seems to care how you phrase things...they all seem to know what these terms mean. I was shocked the first time that I read one of these arguments about those terms...terms that I have heard, used and understood my entire life.
Also...I don't think that whatever terminology that you use doesn't guarantee success or failure.
Like I said, I use the term junk food, but I use it in a non-precise way and don't assume others share my meaning.
For example, some use it exclusively for sweets. Some use it only for packaged things that are high cal (fast food, chips, storebought desserts) but would not use it for grandma's homemade pie. Some use it for anything highly processed (include a low cal frozen meal with reasonable macros and some veg). Some might use it for anything extra high cal for the nutrients (my homemade pulled pork), others would apply it to the same thing if purchased at a restaurant but not homemade.
Some would call my Ethiopian food order of spinach, collards, cabbage/carrots, and lamb junk food because it's delivery and high cal. Others would say it's junk food because of the injera. Still others would point out that it's got lots of vegetables so is not junk food.
I suspect the only reason you say everyone knows what junk food means is that you are either thinking of the most obvious examples or just assume they mean what you do.
Like I said, I use the term, it doesn't bother me, but by no means is it clear.8 -
What I find amusing...in the real world (outside MFP) I have never run across anyone that is confused about some of the terminology that is often the center of debate here..."junk food"...processed..."good/bad food". No one seems to care how you phrase things...they all seem to know what these terms mean. I was shocked the first time that I read one of these arguments about those terms...terms that I have heard, used and understood my entire life.
Also...I don't think that whatever terminology that you use doesn't guarantee success or failure.
This is soooo true.0 -
What I find amusing...in the real world (outside MFP) I have never run across anyone that is confused about some of the terminology that is often the center of debate here..."junk food"...processed..."good/bad food". No one seems to care how you phrase things...they all seem to know what these terms mean. I was shocked the first time that I read one of these arguments about those terms...terms that I have heard, used and understood my entire life.
Also...I don't think that whatever terminology that you use doesn't guarantee success or failure.
This is soooo true.
Curious what your position would be on the various categories of foods I discussed in my post just above.
Also, what do you think the obvious, universal understanding of "processed food" is?
Are you saying that if someone does not understand what you mean by "processed" they are being disingenuous? Because, honestly, that's what this assertion seems like to me.
I spend years trying to eat "unprocessed" (which was basically impossible and I knew I wasn't succeeding). The way I ate was similar to that discussed in Megan Kimble's book Unprocessed (http://megankimble.com/). Yet I constantly get told that NO ONE means that when they say unprocessed. It feels a bit odd to have my own personal experience dismissed like that, and the understanding of the term that I think is pretty common in my own social group (not to mention the dictionary).
In this thread, the example given by OP was someone saying a pie was "not processed" (presumably because that person understood processed to mean mass produced with questionable additives or preservatives). OP asserted that it of course was processed because it didn't grow on a tree, but neither does cheese or yogurt or, say, my homemade stew grow on a tree. So I think we have different understandings of the term here. Do you think everyone everywhere would think that homemade whole grain bread is processed? It obviously is, but many would not mean that if they said they weren't eating processed foods.
Do you not think these are legitimate confusions?
For the purpose of the thread, why is it necessary to inject these terms into your "no thanks"? Doubling down on "it is not confusing and anyone who pretends not to know what I mean must be sabotaging me" seems like a bad idea. I am entirely willing to concede that many people mean something different than I do by processed, and I try to keep that in mind, but it seems like others are convinced that there's some other unquestioned meaning and my (dictionary and wholly normal in my family and social circle) meaning is made up or disingenuous. That strikes me as rather unfair and I do not understand why there's this insistence that anyone who doesn't share your meaning is wrong.
I would very much like an answer to this question from anyone in the "it's obvious and clear and we all mean the same thing" camp.
And again, I see nothing wrong with using the terms. I do see something wrong with assuming they are crystal clear and anyone who doesn't understand you is being dense or disingenuous.9 -
MarisaMSimon wrote: »I also used to have that all or nothing mentality before. What has helped me through these last 35 pounds I've lost so far was accepting that I'm not going to always be perfect, I'm human! Overall, one cookie won't affect my weight loss in the end, if I don't beat myself up for it. Everyday is a new day and eventually I had to rewire my brain to understand this. I used to give up if I ate "bad" food and didn't workout. I would restart every Monday when I could just pick up the next day and brush off a bad day. Since December 1st, I've had a couple of eat everything in sight days, but at the end of it all, I've had more good days than bad and have lost 35.2 pounds. You can do it too OP!
But the OP is saying is that for her, one cookie becomes too many cookies and derails her focus on the new way she would like to eat. Having one cookie and not beating yourself up for it is ideal, certainly, but for some, that one cookie means finishing off the entire bag. Not so easy to brush off if it restarts a pattern you're trying to stop.
4 -
You're not that unusual. Some people can stick to a varied diet, others do better by eliminating foods entirely. I'm in the second group. You need better friends, or at least a couple of people in your life who are in tune with your goals. Maybe you could meet them through a group dedicated to some kind of physical activity (even walking) or diet.
Therapy might help in terms of support and developing responses to people who challenge you. I don't agree with the person who said you have all-or-nothing thinking. Some of us can't have just one bite. That's how we're made. Abstaining is less stressful for us. It is, however, important to remember that junk food is not a physical addiction. You may have cravings or a psychological dependency, neither of which may be easy to overcome, but they are easier to beat than an addiction to heroin.4 -
rosebarnalice wrote: »
This.shewhoismany wrote: »My mother always said that if you are polite, you don't owe anyone an explanation. Look directly in their eyes and say, "No, thank you." You don't have to give them a reason, they don't deserve an excuse. With a simple, "No, thank you", you have asserted control. If you don't give them a reason, you don't give them an opening and watching them fish for one can be entertaining. On the rare occasions I am forced to repeat myself, I like to include a little head shake and a "no, you silly fool" smile.
Sometimes I'll say something like, "thank you so much for thinking of me!" or "this makes me feel so special!" (neither of which is a lie)
I get angry when people say "Food is Love." Love is love. If people genuinely care about you they won't keep pressing on you food that you've told them is bad for you.
6 -
shewhoismany wrote: »It is unkind of people to try to push you into any behavior once you have voiced your desire to avoid it. However, most people do not view pushing cake the same way they see pushing alcohol. Food is love, it is a representation community and social ties. The cutting of the birthday cake is the ritual sacrifice to death god for sparing the celebrant for one more year. If you don't eat the cake it like wishing some one dead.
Food isn't love. Love is love. And I am unfamiliar with the symbolism to which you refer. In my experience, someone might be hurt by a refusal of birthday cake, but equating it with a death wish? PLEASE.
3 -
MarisaMSimon wrote: »I also used to have that all or nothing mentality before. What has helped me through these last 35 pounds I've lost so far was accepting that I'm not going to always be perfect, I'm human! Overall, one cookie won't affect my weight loss in the end, if I don't beat myself up for it. Everyday is a new day and eventually I had to rewire my brain to understand this. I used to give up if I ate "bad" food and didn't workout. I would restart every Monday when I could just pick up the next day and brush off a bad day. Since December 1st, I've had a couple of eat everything in sight days, but at the end of it all, I've had more good days than bad and have lost 35.2 pounds. You can do it too OP!
But the OP is saying is that for her, one cookie becomes too many cookies and derails her focus on the new way she would like to eat. Having one cookie and not beating yourself up for it is ideal, certainly, but for some, that one cookie means finishing off the entire bag. Not so easy to brush off if it restarts a pattern you're trying to stop.
Yes, I have learned it's better for me to just not have Oreos in the house, as I am unable to moderate them.
I make chocolate chip cookies for my OH. I eat one on the day I make them, and am able to leave the rest for him. (Despite them being "the best chocolate chip cookies in the world" lol.)
Some people may need to not have any cookies at all around, and I respect that.4 -
biggiwig4483 wrote: »A simple polite No will do it most times. And people usually won’t offer it twice. My mom used to be very pushy with me. One day I got so mad, took the cake that she offered me 4 times and through it in the trash right in front of her. Lesson learned! Sorry guys, being a german I am very direct with people, probably rude for american standard 😀.
I'm an American who thinks we need to learn to be a hell of a lot more direct and stop all the weird pussyfooting around that we have learned from our Pilgrim and Victorian heritages. STOP hiding what you actually think and feel behind strange manipulative screens and just come out with it for God's sake. You can do so politely and without disrespect. Emotional honesty is a huge deficit in our culture and we seriously need to work on improving it. All this "stiff upper lip" crap is toxic and gets us nowhere except more repressed and dysfunctional. And frankly, someone who is still pushing something on you after you have said no deserves a good blowup directed their way.
Here is a good example: I think veganism is stupid, unwise, and unhealthy. I also think the carnivorism backlash is the same, because all very restrictive diets end up with health consequences due to deficiencies in nutrients from the things people refuse to eat. However, no vegan or carnivore needs to give one *kitten* about my opinion, and I have no right to impose it on them. If I am planning an event involving food, I should have the good manners to provide something for everyone to eat, regardless of my opinion, and I should never try to get someone to eat any food they don't want to eat (unless I gave birth to them and they are still a minor). This way of living is briefly summed up as "don't be a dick" and more people need to start adopting it.16 -
I think a lot of the disconnection that is happening in this thread is because some people are reading it and applying personal biases and others are reading it and thinking that there is more to this story.
When I read one side of a story I always consider:
1) Does the story add up?
2) Does it seem reasonable and sensible?
3) Is the storyteller going out of his/her way to convince me that "the other guy" is the bad guy?
For me the answers are 1) No. 2) Parts of it maybe yes, parts seem less so and 3) Definitely
I am not accusing anyone of anything. This is a message board and a lot can be lost in trying to interpret things with limited information. I am, as always, willing to be perfectly wrong.
I do think it is always helpful to remember that when you have had a negative encounter with another person the first question you ask yourself should not be "How am I right?" it should be "How am I wrong?' Sometimes it is black and white and there is a true offending party. Many others it is that you and the other person are both right and wrong in your approach or thinking. This assumes you have a fairly healthy and objective way of viewing yourself. If not, therapy might help.12 -
kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Processed and ultra processed are not the same. Frozen spinach is processed. Whole grain bread is processed, rolled oats are processed, canned tomatoes are processed, cottage cheese is processed, smoked salmon is processed, boneless, skinless chicken breast is processed.
Ironically, the link defines ultraprocessed as microwavable and ready to eat, so would not include the oh so evil homemade pie.
But again not the topic of this thread.
While you are correct that processed and ultra processed are not the same, everyone I know IRL, along with most new posters on MFP, say "processed" when they mean "ultra processed".
This is the first I time I remember seeing the term ultra processed used. The subject was confusing as it was so adding this layer just makes my head hurt.
Really? New posters generally say "processed" when they mean what many MFP regulars understand to be "ultra processed" so I often come along and point this out and drop in the link to the Brazilian definitions. Ultra Processed starts on p 39: http://bvsms.saude.gov.br/bvs/publicacoes/dietary_guidelines_brazilian_population.pdf
What I find amusing...in the real world (outside MFP) I have never run across anyone that is confused about some of the terminology that is often the center of debate here..."junk food"...processed..."good/bad food". No one seems to care how you phrase things...they all seem to know what these terms mean. I was shocked the first time that I read one of these arguments about those terms...terms that I have heard, used and understood my entire life.
Also...I don't think that whatever terminology that you use doesn't guarantee success or failure.
Like I said, I use the term junk food, but I use it in a non-precise way and don't assume others share my meaning.
For example, some use it exclusively for sweets. Some use it only for packaged things that are high cal (fast food, chips, storebought desserts) but would not use it for grandma's homemade pie. Some use it for anything highly processed (include a low cal frozen meal with reasonable macros and some veg). Some might use it for anything extra high cal for the nutrients (my homemade pulled pork), others would apply it to the same thing if purchased at a restaurant but not homemade.
Some would call my Ethiopian food order of spinach, collards, cabbage/carrots, and lamb junk food because it's delivery and high cal. Others would say it's junk food because of the injera. Still others would point out that it's got lots of vegetables so is not junk food.
I suspect the only reason you say everyone knows what junk food means is that you are either thinking of the most obvious examples or just assume they mean what you do.
Like I said, I use the term, it doesn't bother me, but by no means is it clear.
I try not to assume too much about people. I do admit to thinking of the most obvious.
Isn't most of life ambiguous? An example: I might say my house is clean. Some could walk in and think it is spotless...someone else might think it is messy and not organized...then there is that person that thinks it is a disaster! Most of what we think is subjective to our own opinions but I also believe that there are some commonalities that are applicable to most of us.
We all put things in categories based on our own experiences and preferences. I have mine...you have yours. I think sometimes that when people get together and discuss these types of difference we lose site of the big picture. In the case of the OP she didn't ask a question concerning what is "junk" food. She wanted to know how others handled people in their lives that weren't supportive. Whether I agree with her choices of food doesn't matter one way or the other nor how she categorizes food.
I hesitate to post my response. I try to stay out of these debates.4 -
kshama2001 wrote: »kshama2001 wrote: »Processed and ultra processed are not the same. Frozen spinach is processed. Whole grain bread is processed, rolled oats are processed, canned tomatoes are processed, cottage cheese is processed, smoked salmon is processed, boneless, skinless chicken breast is processed.
Ironically, the link defines ultraprocessed as microwavable and ready to eat, so would not include the oh so evil homemade pie.
But again not the topic of this thread.
While you are correct that processed and ultra processed are not the same, everyone I know IRL, along with most new posters on MFP, say "processed" when they mean "ultra processed".
This is the first I time I remember seeing the term ultra processed used. The subject was confusing as it was so adding this layer just makes my head hurt.
Really? New posters generally say "processed" when they mean what many MFP regulars understand to be "ultra processed" so I often come along and point this out and drop in the link to the Brazilian definitions. Ultra Processed starts on p 39: http://bvsms.saude.gov.br/bvs/publicacoes/dietary_guidelines_brazilian_population.pdf
What I find amusing...in the real world (outside MFP) I have never run across anyone that is confused about some of the terminology that is often the center of debate here..."junk food"...processed..."good/bad food". No one seems to care how you phrase things...they all seem to know what these terms mean. I was shocked the first time that I read one of these arguments about those terms...terms that I have heard, used and understood my entire life.
Also...I don't think that whatever terminology that you use doesn't guarantee success or failure.
Like I said, I use the term junk food, but I use it in a non-precise way and don't assume others share my meaning.
For example, some use it exclusively for sweets. Some use it only for packaged things that are high cal (fast food, chips, storebought desserts) but would not use it for grandma's homemade pie. Some use it for anything highly processed (include a low cal frozen meal with reasonable macros and some veg). Some might use it for anything extra high cal for the nutrients (my homemade pulled pork), others would apply it to the same thing if purchased at a restaurant but not homemade.
Some would call my Ethiopian food order of spinach, collards, cabbage/carrots, and lamb junk food because it's delivery and high cal. Others would say it's junk food because of the injera. Still others would point out that it's got lots of vegetables so is not junk food.
I suspect the only reason you say everyone knows what junk food means is that you are either thinking of the most obvious examples or just assume they mean what you do.
Like I said, I use the term, it doesn't bother me, but by no means is it clear.
I try not to assume too much about people. I do admit to thinking of the most obvious.
Isn't most of life ambiguous? An example: I might say my house is clean. Some could walk in and think it is spotless...someone else might think it is messy and not organized...then there is that person that thinks it is a disaster! Most of what we think is subjective to our own opinions but I also believe that there are some commonalities that are applicable to most of us.
We all put things in categories based on our own experiences and preferences. I have mine...you have yours. I think sometimes that when people get together and discuss these types of difference we lose site of the big picture. In the case of the OP she didn't ask a question concerning what is "junk" food. She wanted to know how others handled people in their lives that weren't supportive. Whether I agree with her choices of food doesn't matter one way or the other nor how she categorizes food.
I hesitate to post my response. I try to stay out of these debates.
Well, lemur is a professional debator, so she's gonna keep arguing.
I am reminded of reading somewhere that internet forums are like cutting the lawn with nail clippers, one blade at a time.
This thread is working on getting perfect edges around those trees.
10 -
We all put things in categories based on our own experiences and preferences. I have mine...you have yours. I think sometimes that when people get together and discuss these types of difference we lose site of the big picture. In the case of the OP she didn't ask a question concerning what is "junk" food. She wanted to know how others handled people in their lives that weren't supportive. Whether I agree with her choices of food doesn't matter one way or the other nor how she categorizes food.
Yeah, I'm not sure how the "junk food" thing came up. I think someone asserted that there is no ambiguity. I certainly did not bring up the term "junk food" first.
Just to be clear -- again -- because I feel like you are accusing me of something I did not say:
(1) I did not suggest that OP asked a question about junk food.
(2) I did not express an opinion on what OP should eat. To the contrary, I have said over and over that that is her choice, and that she has expressed perfectly good reasons for her choices, and need not express any reason at all.
Therefore, I do not get why you seem to be accusing me of not respecting OP's choices or arguing about whether she should or should not categorize food (I said I use junk food myself, but suspect others mean different things by the same term and it makes no difference most of the time people use it).
What I said is that getting mad at someone for not understanding that if you do not eat processed food you do not eat a specific food that was offered (or even for not remembering that you do not eat processed food) is POINTLESS. Moreover, turning the discussion from "no thanks" to "that is bad food to be eating, it is processed" -- as it sounded to me OP might be doing -- would likely explain some of the pushback she claims to have received. I have found that just not eating things and saying "no thanks" without explanation usually result in no one caring or even noticing much.
Then -- or such is my interpretation -- I got jumped on by people for saying that, and told that "yes, how dare you suggest it's ambiguous, everyone would know exactly what was meant." IMO, that's accusing those who don't immediately know what someone else means by "processed" and so asks (not here, but someone coming to your house for a meal or in a thread where someone says "I gave up processed foods, give me meal ideas") of being disingenuous, and I don't think that's fair.
Nor, again, does it have anything to do with me expressing an opinion on the foods OP eats or does not eat, so I'm entirely puzzled about why I got accused of that.5
This discussion has been closed.
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