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Fat - not carbs - addictive?

magnusthenerd
magnusthenerd Posts: 1,207 Member
edited December 22 in Debate Club
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/1028415X.2019.1651104?fbclid=IwAR3rbk_N08iMgLoHBv6S0bMWhEvAnYy2QU9AmMH6Fm6s7u33QzMmlqb2VpQ&needAccess=true&journalCode=ynns20
Fat rather than sugar diet leads to binge-type eating, anticipation, effort behavior and activation of the corticolimbic system
Results: In corticolimbic areas, c-Fos activation and ΔFosB accumulation were evaluated. After an acute exposition, rats ate more SRD than FRD, but FDR stimulated higher c-Fos. After chronic administration, the FDR group exhibited higher levels of BTE and FAA; this was associated with higher c-Fos and accumulation of ΔFosB in the corticolimbic system. Similar effects in the FRD group were observed after one week of withdrawal.
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Replies

  • kimothyschma
    kimothyschma Posts: 209 Member
    edited August 2019
    It doesn’t sound crazy or anything. Cheese used to be a huge problem for me. I can see it. Any time I have a day where I over eat and I’m way in the red, if I check the macros it’s always the fat that’s over.
  • CSARdiver
    CSARdiver Posts: 6,252 Member
    Makes sense. Years ago I watched a lot of the >10k calorie/day challenges and this was a common theme. Those successful in the challenge moved from sweet to salty and back, but all focused on high fat foods.

    Those who attempted to eat a lot of only sweets or only salty ended up sick and unable to finish the challenge.
  • macchiatto
    macchiatto Posts: 2,890 Member
    edited August 2019
    Interesting. I got a "website is experiencing technical difficulties" message so I'm not able to read the article. For me sugar is a lot more likely to lead to binge-eating and strong cravings but I wonder if that's related to being insulin-resistant.
  • ExistingFish
    ExistingFish Posts: 1,259 Member
    edited August 2019
    I don't find this to be the case for me. I could eat my weight in crackers, cereal, chips, soda...and GUMMY BEARS, all particularly low or no fat foods.

    Fatty foods don't seem to have the same effect.

    But I also have never experienced binge type eating tendencies. It's more a handful of crackers here, a few extra chips after I finish my sandwich, another handful of crackers next time I walk through the kitchen, then another because that was a small handful...etc etc.

    Even when it comes to candy, I will keep shoveling gummy bears forever. Something like chocolate, which some fat, I can stop much easier.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    I don't find this to be the case for me. I could eat my weight in crackers, cereal, chips, soda...and GUMMY BEARS, all particularly low or no fat foods.

    Fatty foods don't seem to have the same effect.

    But I also have never experienced binge type eating tendencies. It's more a handful of crackers here, a few extra chips after I finish my sandwich, another handful of crackers next time I walk through the kitchen, then another because that was a small handful...etc etc.

    Even when it comes to candy, I will keep shoveling gummy bears forever. Something like chocolate, which some fat, I can stop much easier.

    I'm the opposite -- foods that are mostly just carbs are hard for me to overeat and often don't appeal at all -- but I think this just supports the idea that humans tend to vary quite a bit on what they tend to find hard not to overindulge on. While I think there might be something to certain combinations being the toughest to avoid overeating on average, I'd bet that for humans it's much more about history and associations with the foods, taste preferences, habits, family and culture, etc., than any purely physical reaction to anything we eat.

    One way humans are likely different from rats, although even rats are more likely to show addictive behaviors in some environments vs. others.
  • This article is very misleading. High fat foods in the absence or near absence of carbs has been proven to increase satiety leading to reduction in eating. I am not at home at the moment to cite research but it is extremely easy to find. As for fat being the cause of heart issues that had also been debunked. It is a combination of high fat and high carbs because your body cannot effectively utilize both at the same time.
  • magnusthenerd
    magnusthenerd Posts: 1,207 Member
    This article is very misleading. High fat foods in the absence or near absence of carbs has been proven to increase satiety leading to reduction in eating. I am not at home at the moment to cite research but it is extremely easy to find. As for fat being the cause of heart issues that had also been debunked. It is a combination of high fat and high carbs because your body cannot effectively utilize both at the same time.

    How is it misleading? The methodology explains exactly how they did it. The point is to test fat versus sugar in actually hyperpalatable consistencies, not eating them alone.
  • SarahAnne3958
    SarahAnne3958 Posts: 78 Member
    edited September 2019
    I transitioned from a high carb/low fat way of eating, to a low carb/high fat way of eating and neither macros splits caused binge eating or out of control food cravings for me. I do find that the lower carb/higher fat ratio keeps me satiated longer, but I know others do well with a higher carb macros split. It seems pretty individual, and it's also not factoring in protein consumption, which I think plays a significant role in all of this.
  • VioletRojo
    VioletRojo Posts: 597 Member
    It's true for me. If the high fat food is salty, so much the better.
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    I don't find this to be the case for me. I could eat my weight in crackers, cereal, chips, soda...and GUMMY BEARS, all particularly low or no fat foods.

    Fatty foods don't seem to have the same effect.

    But I also have never experienced binge type eating tendencies. It's more a handful of crackers here, a few extra chips after I finish my sandwich, another handful of crackers next time I walk through the kitchen, then another because that was a small handful...etc etc.

    Even when it comes to candy, I will keep shoveling gummy bears forever. Something like chocolate, which some fat, I can stop much easier.

    Chips are a high fat food... unless they are baked. Mine is sweet and fat. Ice cream..
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    High fat foods in the absence or near absence of carbs has been proven to increase satiety leading to reduction in eating.

    The studies I've seen are about going to a very low carb/keto diet that ALSO increases protein. It is not surprising that increasing protein and changing your diet so significantly that you have to cut out most of the foods many overeat and start from scratch for those kinds of items tend to decrease calories without counting at first. That's not necessarily about satiety at all. (I do think for many but not all very low carb does tend to make people less interested in food or less hungry, but often the switch is less from plain carbs and certainly not less processed carbs with more fiber, but from foods that are high in fat and carbs).

    It is true that fat in and of itself is not considered a problem anymore, but sat fat is still considered a food that should be limited:

    https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/2016/12/19/saturated-fat-regardless-of-type-found-linked-with-increased-heart-disease-risk/

    https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/frank-sacks-swap-saturated-fats-for-healthier-fats/

    Yes, increased protein. Most carbs coming from higher fiber sources. Double whammy. Though, in some of the research I have read, ketosis will blunt appetite a little more than would be expected. I will have to go dig them up and post them. I also suspect the absence of a macro plays in as well. How fun is icecream without the sweetness?
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,431 MFP Moderator
    This article is very misleading. High fat foods in the absence or near absence of carbs has been proven to increase satiety leading to reduction in eating. I am not at home at the moment to cite research but it is extremely easy to find. As for fat being the cause of heart issues that had also been debunked. It is a combination of high fat and high carbs because your body cannot effectively utilize both at the same time.

    What type of foods are you referring to? Also, butter and oils have some of the lowest satiety scores.

    Source: https://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/fullness-factor
  • Gamliela
    Gamliela Posts: 2,468 Member
    edited September 2019
    I got to a point when I was restricting my calorie intake to 1200 that nothing really satisfied the hunger I had. Since I was at a healthy bmi I stopped dieting and went to maintenance and tbh, if I'm eating a balanced diet (getting the macros mfp sets me) with good food, I don't get cravings at maintenance levels of calories if I keep my activity level at about the same every day.

    So as far as what is the more satisfying macro? idk really, its more a matter of harmonizing all of it, the macros, calories and excersize my body needs. Because when I was keto, all the fat couldn't satisfy me, when I was vegetarian, all the bread couldn't satisfy me. It depended on calories meeting my energy needs, not over or under eating anything.

    Scores on foods for satiety are nice, but when it comes to putting it into practice, too few calories is gonna make a person hungry. imo.
  • LinkedEmpire
    LinkedEmpire Posts: 40 Member
    Old thread but just wanted to say that I was on a heavy carb diet..I miss spaghetti and Mac n cheese bc it goes back for a lot of us. But the mfp route has me eating more fats. TBH, I don't miss having pasta and rice everyday throughout the day. I don't get sugar cravings anymore either. I feel full longer between meals, spacing them out and eating consistently to macros. I include my snacks in there and condiments but only thing I need to watch is sodium. I don't like salty and super crunchy foods so chips for example, was not an issue.
  • LinkedEmpire
    LinkedEmpire Posts: 40 Member
    Thank you. I believe I responded to what macro tends to be more satisfying via personal preference, but I don't believe I requested a correction as though I were confusing myself.
  • ElioraFR
    ElioraFR Posts: 91 Member
    I adore the fat and refined carbohydrate combo. Faves of mine would be shortbread cookies made with butter and white flour, peanut butter cookies, almond cookies, cake, fruit pies, pastries, cream puffs or copenhagens, trifle. I could eat those all day long. On the other hand I like potatoes but couldn't binge on them, not even if they are made into chips. So I know what my weaknesses are; refined carbs plus fat. Other examples would be rice with butter and a little sugar in, ice cream, or sweet type breads with butter smoothed over. Cuppa tea besides and its Paradise!
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    I could never really overeat plain carbs either. Anything I am prone to overdo has mixed macros. I think this is likely quite common, but people often oddly call foods that are half fat/half carbs (or carbs, fat, and protein) "carbs" if they are foods that are perceived to be less healthful. I think it's because of the current anti carb thing.
  • rheddmobile
    rheddmobile Posts: 6,840 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I could never really overeat plain carbs either. Anything I am prone to overdo has mixed macros. I think this is likely quite common, but people often oddly call foods that are half fat/half carbs (or carbs, fat, and protein) "carbs" if they are foods that are perceived to be less healthful. I think it's because of the current anti carb thing.

    It’s pretty difficult to overeat plain fat, though. Except bacon. Even nut butter usually goes on bread. For the typical American diet, cut the carbs and the fat problem also resolves itself. No one is getting fat eating just slabs of greasy cheese with pepperoni on it, it goes on dough first. French fries, same deal, you don’t eat a vat of corn oil.

    Fat also doesn’t play silly games with insulin levels, which causes cravings in some people.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,458 Member
    Hey, this is a good old thread to bump.

    I had a lottttttttta fat and carbs yesterday. Over by 2300 calories.

    4,077 Cal, 508 Carb, 201 Fat, 116 Protein, 92 Sat Fat, 56g Fiber

    I'm down a pound today. :lol: That's probably a different thread, huh? I wish I could eat like that every day and get those results, it was perfect. That was a lot of food, though. I'll only worry about my arteries for a minute. Worth it.

    Addictive? Hm. Well, I believe the wrong combo or split can make things worse. JMHO

  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I could never really overeat plain carbs either. Anything I am prone to overdo has mixed macros. I think this is likely quite common, but people often oddly call foods that are half fat/half carbs (or carbs, fat, and protein) "carbs" if they are foods that are perceived to be less healthful. I think it's because of the current anti carb thing.

    It’s pretty difficult to overeat plain fat, though. Except bacon. Even nut butter usually goes on bread. For the typical American diet, cut the carbs and the fat problem also resolves itself. No one is getting fat eating just slabs of greasy cheese with pepperoni on it, it goes on dough first. French fries, same deal, you don’t eat a vat of corn oil.

    Fat also doesn’t play silly games with insulin levels, which causes cravings in some people.

    I would counter this argument, that fat IS able to easily be overeaten on. Lets look at a ribeye steak vs a lean sirloin. Ribeye per 100 grams raw is 22 grams if fat (292 calories) vs sirloin 100 grams raw 14 grams of fat 14 grams (244 calories). By choosing the leaner cut, one "saves" 50 calories. Yes, people do overeat on pepperoni with cheese. Look at people eating "greasy" ribs. The combination of fat and umami flavor is goes down easy. Pepperoni per 100 grams is nearly 500 calories. Compare that to nearly 7 medium apples to equal the calories? I dare many people to eat nearly 800 grams of apples in a sitting. Add carbs to energy dense mixture and people eat more! If insulin had anything to do with hunger, why did we see the results of Kevin Halls last study of a plant based vs animal based keto diet? 300 cals a day spontaneous decrease in calories on the second week of the keto vs a 1000 calorie average decrease on the first day of a plant based? Protein was equated. https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/rdjfb/
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