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Fat - not carbs - addictive?

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  • GamlielaGamliela Member Posts: 2,487 Member Member Posts: 2,487 Member
    I got to a point when I was restricting my calorie intake to 1200 that nothing really satisfied the hunger I had. Since I was at a healthy bmi I stopped dieting and went to maintenance and tbh, if I'm eating a balanced diet (getting the macros mfp sets me) with good food, I don't get cravings at maintenance levels of calories if I keep my activity level at about the same every day.

    So as far as what is the more satisfying macro? idk really, its more a matter of harmonizing all of it, the macros, calories and excersize my body needs. Because when I was keto, all the fat couldn't satisfy me, when I was vegetarian, all the bread couldn't satisfy me. It depended on calories meeting my energy needs, not over or under eating anything.

    Scores on foods for satiety are nice, but when it comes to putting it into practice, too few calories is gonna make a person hungry. imo.
    edited September 2019
  • LinkedEmpireLinkedEmpire Member Posts: 37 Member Member Posts: 37 Member
    Old thread but just wanted to say that I was on a heavy carb diet..I miss spaghetti and Mac n cheese bc it goes back for a lot of us. But the mfp route has me eating more fats. TBH, I don't miss having pasta and rice everyday throughout the day. I don't get sugar cravings anymore either. I feel full longer between meals, spacing them out and eating consistently to macros. I include my snacks in there and condiments but only thing I need to watch is sodium. I don't like salty and super crunchy foods so chips for example, was not an issue.
  • LinkedEmpireLinkedEmpire Member Posts: 37 Member Member Posts: 37 Member
    Thank you. I believe I responded to what macro tends to be more satisfying via personal preference, but I don't believe I requested a correction as though I were confusing myself.
  • ElioraFRElioraFR Member Posts: 62 Member Member Posts: 62 Member
    I adore the fat and refined carbohydrate combo. Faves of mine would be shortbread cookies made with butter and white flour, peanut butter cookies, almond cookies, cake, fruit pies, pastries, cream puffs or copenhagens, trifle. I could eat those all day long. On the other hand I like potatoes but couldn't binge on them, not even if they are made into chips. So I know what my weaknesses are; refined carbs plus fat. Other examples would be rice with butter and a little sugar in, ice cream, or sweet type breads with butter smoothed over. Cuppa tea besides and its Paradise!
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 5,734 Member Member Posts: 5,734 Member
    I could never really overeat plain carbs either. Anything I am prone to overdo has mixed macros. I think this is likely quite common, but people often oddly call foods that are half fat/half carbs (or carbs, fat, and protein) "carbs" if they are foods that are perceived to be less healthful. I think it's because of the current anti carb thing.
  • rheddmobilerheddmobile Member Posts: 5,695 Member Member Posts: 5,695 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I could never really overeat plain carbs either. Anything I am prone to overdo has mixed macros. I think this is likely quite common, but people often oddly call foods that are half fat/half carbs (or carbs, fat, and protein) "carbs" if they are foods that are perceived to be less healthful. I think it's because of the current anti carb thing.

    It’s pretty difficult to overeat plain fat, though. Except bacon. Even nut butter usually goes on bread. For the typical American diet, cut the carbs and the fat problem also resolves itself. No one is getting fat eating just slabs of greasy cheese with pepperoni on it, it goes on dough first. French fries, same deal, you don’t eat a vat of corn oil.

    Fat also doesn’t play silly games with insulin levels, which causes cravings in some people.
  • cmriversidecmriverside Member Posts: 30,516 Member Member Posts: 30,516 Member
    Hey, this is a good old thread to bump.

    I had a lottttttttta fat and carbs yesterday. Over by 2300 calories.

    4,077 Cal, 508 Carb, 201 Fat, 116 Protein, 92 Sat Fat, 56g Fiber

    I'm down a pound today. :lol: That's probably a different thread, huh? I wish I could eat like that every day and get those results, it was perfect. That was a lot of food, though. I'll only worry about my arteries for a minute. Worth it.

    Addictive? Hm. Well, I believe the wrong combo or split can make things worse. JMHO

  • psychod787psychod787 Member, Premium Posts: 3,764 Member Member, Premium Posts: 3,764 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I could never really overeat plain carbs either. Anything I am prone to overdo has mixed macros. I think this is likely quite common, but people often oddly call foods that are half fat/half carbs (or carbs, fat, and protein) "carbs" if they are foods that are perceived to be less healthful. I think it's because of the current anti carb thing.

    It’s pretty difficult to overeat plain fat, though. Except bacon. Even nut butter usually goes on bread. For the typical American diet, cut the carbs and the fat problem also resolves itself. No one is getting fat eating just slabs of greasy cheese with pepperoni on it, it goes on dough first. French fries, same deal, you don’t eat a vat of corn oil.

    Fat also doesn’t play silly games with insulin levels, which causes cravings in some people.

    I would counter this argument, that fat IS able to easily be overeaten on. Lets look at a ribeye steak vs a lean sirloin. Ribeye per 100 grams raw is 22 grams if fat (292 calories) vs sirloin 100 grams raw 14 grams of fat 14 grams (244 calories). By choosing the leaner cut, one "saves" 50 calories. Yes, people do overeat on pepperoni with cheese. Look at people eating "greasy" ribs. The combination of fat and umami flavor is goes down easy. Pepperoni per 100 grams is nearly 500 calories. Compare that to nearly 7 medium apples to equal the calories? I dare many people to eat nearly 800 grams of apples in a sitting. Add carbs to energy dense mixture and people eat more! If insulin had anything to do with hunger, why did we see the results of Kevin Halls last study of a plant based vs animal based keto diet? 300 cals a day spontaneous decrease in calories on the second week of the keto vs a 1000 calorie average decrease on the first day of a plant based? Protein was equated. https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/rdjfb/
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 5,734 Member Member Posts: 5,734 Member
    (I should add that I'm not at all anti fat, as I would hope my meal examples demonstrate. I also do think people may have natural macro patterns that they find more sating than others. I don't pay attention to macros, but when eating at a deficit or when simply not all that active, I tend to eat a 40 (carb) - 30 - 30 pattern just because to me that fits the meals I find tasty, satisfying, and sating. With more cals (either no deficit, more active, or both), I tend to keep protein about the same in total grams (so lower percentage) and up both fat and carbs a bit. But I don't do any of this purposefully, as I find focusing on protein and then nutrition more helpful for me than trying to hit a certain macro ratio. But for me cheese is way easier to overeat -- if it's good cheese! -- than plain potato, rice, or pasta ever would be, and adding butter to the potato or to some bread makes me much more likely to overdo that.)
  • psychod787psychod787 Member, Premium Posts: 3,764 Member Member, Premium Posts: 3,764 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    (I should add that I'm not at all anti fat, as I would hope my meal examples demonstrate. I also do think people may have natural macro patterns that they find more sating than others. I don't pay attention to macros, but when eating at a deficit or when simply not all that active, I tend to eat a 40 (carb) - 30 - 30 pattern just because to me that fits the meals I find tasty, satisfying, and sating. With more cals (either no deficit, more active, or both), I tend to keep protein about the same in total grams (so lower percentage) and up both fat and carbs a bit. But I don't do any of this purposefully, as I find focusing on protein and then nutrition more helpful for me than trying to hit a certain macro ratio. But for me cheese is way easier to overeat -- if it's good cheese! -- than plain potato, rice, or pasta ever would be, and adding butter to the potato or to some bread makes me much more likely to overdo that.)

    I'm not anti fat either. I just think letting come mostly from minimally refine, whole food sources is a good idea. I would also argue, that when calorie density of the different meals are held constant, with fiber and protein matched, calories coming from fat vs carbs doesn't matter much. In research, both seem to be equally sating. So, until futher research is available, im using Alder's Razor.
  • rheddmobilerheddmobile Member Posts: 5,695 Member Member Posts: 5,695 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I could never really overeat plain carbs either. Anything I am prone to overdo has mixed macros. I think this is likely quite common, but people often oddly call foods that are half fat/half carbs (or carbs, fat, and protein) "carbs" if they are foods that are perceived to be less healthful. I think it's because of the current anti carb thing.

    It’s pretty difficult to overeat plain fat, though. Except bacon. Even nut butter usually goes on bread. For the typical American diet, cut the carbs and the fat problem also resolves itself. No one is getting fat eating just slabs of greasy cheese with pepperoni on it, it goes on dough first. French fries, same deal, you don’t eat a vat of corn oil.

    Fat also doesn’t play silly games with insulin levels, which causes cravings in some people.

    I would counter this argument, that fat IS able to easily be overeaten on. Lets look at a ribeye steak vs a lean sirloin. Ribeye per 100 grams raw is 22 grams if fat (292 calories) vs sirloin 100 grams raw 14 grams of fat 14 grams (244 calories). By choosing the leaner cut, one "saves" 50 calories. Yes, people do overeat on pepperoni with cheese. Look at people eating "greasy" ribs. The combination of fat and umami flavor is goes down easy. Pepperoni per 100 grams is nearly 500 calories. Compare that to nearly 7 medium apples to equal the calories? I dare many people to eat nearly 800 grams of apples in a sitting. Add carbs to energy dense mixture and people eat more! If insulin had anything to do with hunger, why did we see the results of Kevin Halls last study of a plant based vs animal based keto diet? 300 cals a day spontaneous decrease in calories on the second week of the keto vs a 1000 calorie average decrease on the first day of a plant based? Protein was equated. https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/rdjfb/

    It’s not really contentious that insulin directly affects hunger. Injecting insulin to cause agonizing cravings has been used as a form of torture. Any insulin-dependent diabetic can tell you that insulin causes hunger.

    Whether or not insulin levels are a major factor in humans who overeat is more open to question. I can tell you that for me personally, having undiagnosed type 2 diabetes with sky-high insulin levels resulted in me literally eating bags of candy while feeling as if I was starving. Given the large number of Americans with diabetes and metabolic syndrome, I suspect it is a factor for a great many people. Not all, which is why generalizations are a bad idea.
  • psychod787psychod787 Member, Premium Posts: 3,764 Member Member, Premium Posts: 3,764 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    I could never really overeat plain carbs either. Anything I am prone to overdo has mixed macros. I think this is likely quite common, but people often oddly call foods that are half fat/half carbs (or carbs, fat, and protein) "carbs" if they are foods that are perceived to be less healthful. I think it's because of the current anti carb thing.

    It’s pretty difficult to overeat plain fat, though. Except bacon. Even nut butter usually goes on bread. For the typical American diet, cut the carbs and the fat problem also resolves itself. No one is getting fat eating just slabs of greasy cheese with pepperoni on it, it goes on dough first. French fries, same deal, you don’t eat a vat of corn oil.

    Fat also doesn’t play silly games with insulin levels, which causes cravings in some people.

    I would counter this argument, that fat IS able to easily be overeaten on. Lets look at a ribeye steak vs a lean sirloin. Ribeye per 100 grams raw is 22 grams if fat (292 calories) vs sirloin 100 grams raw 14 grams of fat 14 grams (244 calories). By choosing the leaner cut, one "saves" 50 calories. Yes, people do overeat on pepperoni with cheese. Look at people eating "greasy" ribs. The combination of fat and umami flavor is goes down easy. Pepperoni per 100 grams is nearly 500 calories. Compare that to nearly 7 medium apples to equal the calories? I dare many people to eat nearly 800 grams of apples in a sitting. Add carbs to energy dense mixture and people eat more! If insulin had anything to do with hunger, why did we see the results of Kevin Halls last study of a plant based vs animal based keto diet? 300 cals a day spontaneous decrease in calories on the second week of the keto vs a 1000 calorie average decrease on the first day of a plant based? Protein was equated. https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/rdjfb/

    It’s not really contentious that insulin directly affects hunger. Injecting insulin to cause agonizing cravings has been used as a form of torture. Any insulin-dependent diabetic can tell you that insulin causes hunger.

    Whether or not insulin levels are a major factor in humans who overeat is more open to question. I can tell you that for me personally, having undiagnosed type 2 diabetes with sky-high insulin levels resulted in me literally eating bags of candy while feeling as if I was starving. Given the large number of Americans with diabetes and metabolic syndrome, I suspect it is a factor for a great many people. Not all, which is why generalizations are a bad idea.

    Ok, lets address this one at a time. I am aware of insulin shock therapy. These folks were made clinically hypoglycemic. I am not an expert, but having worked with diabetic treatments, I have no doubt that CLINICAL, below 60, will cause hunger. Though not in people who do not have clinical hypoglycemia. I would also love to see the evidence that "any" insulin diabetic gets hungry from insulin therapy. I have quite a few that they do not want to eat. I lived as an un diagnosed type 2 dm. My sign and symptoms were weight loss! Not weight gain. As my body could not process the energy I was intaking. Hunger, sure, because I was starving. Now, I have seen people "reverse", I won't say cure, my a high carb diet. What makes them reverse said symptoms is weight loss. I have seen one study were their adlib diet was 80% carbs and weight loss and diabetic reversal happened. There is also the evidence, will post upon request, that folks with higher insulin levels do not gain more weight than people with lower levels over time. Pretty damning evidence for insulin causing hunger. Last, insulin is a satiety hormone. It tells the brain the body is in a fed state.
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 5,734 Member Member Posts: 5,734 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    (I should add that I'm not at all anti fat, as I would hope my meal examples demonstrate. I also do think people may have natural macro patterns that they find more sating than others. I don't pay attention to macros, but when eating at a deficit or when simply not all that active, I tend to eat a 40 (carb) - 30 - 30 pattern just because to me that fits the meals I find tasty, satisfying, and sating. With more cals (either no deficit, more active, or both), I tend to keep protein about the same in total grams (so lower percentage) and up both fat and carbs a bit. But I don't do any of this purposefully, as I find focusing on protein and then nutrition more helpful for me than trying to hit a certain macro ratio. But for me cheese is way easier to overeat -- if it's good cheese! -- than plain potato, rice, or pasta ever would be, and adding butter to the potato or to some bread makes me much more likely to overdo that.)

    I'm not anti fat either. I just think letting come mostly from minimally refine, whole food sources is a good idea. I would also argue, that when calorie density of the different meals are held constant, with fiber and protein matched, calories coming from fat vs carbs doesn't matter much. In research, both seem to be equally sating. So, until futher research is available, im using Alder's Razor.

    As usual in these discussions, we are largely in agreement.
  • breefosheebreefoshee Member Posts: 344 Member Member Posts: 344 Member
    I did Keto a couple years ago when it was crazy popular. I remember that I stayed hungry and constantly had to worry about my electrolytes. I was swimming in butter and bullet proof coffee and it just never had that same "full" affect that people said it did. Nor did my cravings ever go away-- in fact, it made me more bingey because I was so all or nothing. That's not to knock anyone who does Keto, it just didn't have the satiating effect on me that others claimed it to have.
  • Slacker16Slacker16 Member Posts: 1,103 Member Member Posts: 1,103 Member
    Speaking strictly from personal experience, starches are probably what's easiest for me to overeat.

    I can go overboard with nuts and chips simply because of how calorically dense they are, but I definitely feel it afterwards. Bread, rice and pasta, though... yeah, I can eat a ton of it without really feeling full, even with minimal fat or protein on top; especially if salty, sweets just don't have the same appeal. YMMV, obviously.
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Member Posts: 5,734 Member Member Posts: 5,734 Member
    People are very different. I just can't imagine any desire to eat large amounts of plain rice, pasta, or bread. They are so bland.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Member Posts: 24,034 Member Member Posts: 24,034 Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    People are very different. I just can't imagine any desire to eat large amounts of plain rice, pasta, or bread. They are so bland.

    I agree with you except for when the bread is fresh out of the oven.
  • psuLemonpsuLemon Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,804 MFP Moderator Member, MFP Moderator, Greeter, Premium Posts: 36,804 MFP Moderator
    breefoshee wrote: »
    I did Keto a couple years ago when it was crazy popular. I remember that I stayed hungry and constantly had to worry about my electrolytes. I was swimming in butter and bullet proof coffee and it just never had that same "full" affect that people said it did. Nor did my cravings ever go away-- in fact, it made me more bingey because I was so all or nothing. That's not to knock anyone who does Keto, it just didn't have the satiating effect on me that others claimed it to have.

    I think you unfortunately fell for some of the non sense in the Keto community. There is no need to add butter to everything or drink Keto coffee. In fact, i tend to eat leaner meats and add fats through guacamole and occasionally a butter sauce. But more often, i rather save those calories for my milkshake or low GI fruits.
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