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Fat - not carbs - addictive?
Replies
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(I should add that I'm not at all anti fat, as I would hope my meal examples demonstrate. I also do think people may have natural macro patterns that they find more sating than others. I don't pay attention to macros, but when eating at a deficit or when simply not all that active, I tend to eat a 40 (carb) - 30 - 30 pattern just because to me that fits the meals I find tasty, satisfying, and sating. With more cals (either no deficit, more active, or both), I tend to keep protein about the same in total grams (so lower percentage) and up both fat and carbs a bit. But I don't do any of this purposefully, as I find focusing on protein and then nutrition more helpful for me than trying to hit a certain macro ratio. But for me cheese is way easier to overeat -- if it's good cheese! -- than plain potato, rice, or pasta ever would be, and adding butter to the potato or to some bread makes me much more likely to overdo that.)3
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(I should add that I'm not at all anti fat, as I would hope my meal examples demonstrate. I also do think people may have natural macro patterns that they find more sating than others. I don't pay attention to macros, but when eating at a deficit or when simply not all that active, I tend to eat a 40 (carb) - 30 - 30 pattern just because to me that fits the meals I find tasty, satisfying, and sating. With more cals (either no deficit, more active, or both), I tend to keep protein about the same in total grams (so lower percentage) and up both fat and carbs a bit. But I don't do any of this purposefully, as I find focusing on protein and then nutrition more helpful for me than trying to hit a certain macro ratio. But for me cheese is way easier to overeat -- if it's good cheese! -- than plain potato, rice, or pasta ever would be, and adding butter to the potato or to some bread makes me much more likely to overdo that.)
I'm not anti fat either. I just think letting come mostly from minimally refine, whole food sources is a good idea. I would also argue, that when calorie density of the different meals are held constant, with fiber and protein matched, calories coming from fat vs carbs doesn't matter much. In research, both seem to be equally sating. So, until futher research is available, im using Alder's Razor.2 -
psychod787 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »I could never really overeat plain carbs either. Anything I am prone to overdo has mixed macros. I think this is likely quite common, but people often oddly call foods that are half fat/half carbs (or carbs, fat, and protein) "carbs" if they are foods that are perceived to be less healthful. I think it's because of the current anti carb thing.
It’s pretty difficult to overeat plain fat, though. Except bacon. Even nut butter usually goes on bread. For the typical American diet, cut the carbs and the fat problem also resolves itself. No one is getting fat eating just slabs of greasy cheese with pepperoni on it, it goes on dough first. French fries, same deal, you don’t eat a vat of corn oil.
Fat also doesn’t play silly games with insulin levels, which causes cravings in some people.
I would counter this argument, that fat IS able to easily be overeaten on. Lets look at a ribeye steak vs a lean sirloin. Ribeye per 100 grams raw is 22 grams if fat (292 calories) vs sirloin 100 grams raw 14 grams of fat 14 grams (244 calories). By choosing the leaner cut, one "saves" 50 calories. Yes, people do overeat on pepperoni with cheese. Look at people eating "greasy" ribs. The combination of fat and umami flavor is goes down easy. Pepperoni per 100 grams is nearly 500 calories. Compare that to nearly 7 medium apples to equal the calories? I dare many people to eat nearly 800 grams of apples in a sitting. Add carbs to energy dense mixture and people eat more! If insulin had anything to do with hunger, why did we see the results of Kevin Halls last study of a plant based vs animal based keto diet? 300 cals a day spontaneous decrease in calories on the second week of the keto vs a 1000 calorie average decrease on the first day of a plant based? Protein was equated. https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/rdjfb/
It’s not really contentious that insulin directly affects hunger. Injecting insulin to cause agonizing cravings has been used as a form of torture. Any insulin-dependent diabetic can tell you that insulin causes hunger.
Whether or not insulin levels are a major factor in humans who overeat is more open to question. I can tell you that for me personally, having undiagnosed type 2 diabetes with sky-high insulin levels resulted in me literally eating bags of candy while feeling as if I was starving. Given the large number of Americans with diabetes and metabolic syndrome, I suspect it is a factor for a great many people. Not all, which is why generalizations are a bad idea.0 -
rheddmobile wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »rheddmobile wrote: »I could never really overeat plain carbs either. Anything I am prone to overdo has mixed macros. I think this is likely quite common, but people often oddly call foods that are half fat/half carbs (or carbs, fat, and protein) "carbs" if they are foods that are perceived to be less healthful. I think it's because of the current anti carb thing.
It’s pretty difficult to overeat plain fat, though. Except bacon. Even nut butter usually goes on bread. For the typical American diet, cut the carbs and the fat problem also resolves itself. No one is getting fat eating just slabs of greasy cheese with pepperoni on it, it goes on dough first. French fries, same deal, you don’t eat a vat of corn oil.
Fat also doesn’t play silly games with insulin levels, which causes cravings in some people.
I would counter this argument, that fat IS able to easily be overeaten on. Lets look at a ribeye steak vs a lean sirloin. Ribeye per 100 grams raw is 22 grams if fat (292 calories) vs sirloin 100 grams raw 14 grams of fat 14 grams (244 calories). By choosing the leaner cut, one "saves" 50 calories. Yes, people do overeat on pepperoni with cheese. Look at people eating "greasy" ribs. The combination of fat and umami flavor is goes down easy. Pepperoni per 100 grams is nearly 500 calories. Compare that to nearly 7 medium apples to equal the calories? I dare many people to eat nearly 800 grams of apples in a sitting. Add carbs to energy dense mixture and people eat more! If insulin had anything to do with hunger, why did we see the results of Kevin Halls last study of a plant based vs animal based keto diet? 300 cals a day spontaneous decrease in calories on the second week of the keto vs a 1000 calorie average decrease on the first day of a plant based? Protein was equated. https://osf.io/preprints/nutrixiv/rdjfb/
It’s not really contentious that insulin directly affects hunger. Injecting insulin to cause agonizing cravings has been used as a form of torture. Any insulin-dependent diabetic can tell you that insulin causes hunger.
Whether or not insulin levels are a major factor in humans who overeat is more open to question. I can tell you that for me personally, having undiagnosed type 2 diabetes with sky-high insulin levels resulted in me literally eating bags of candy while feeling as if I was starving. Given the large number of Americans with diabetes and metabolic syndrome, I suspect it is a factor for a great many people. Not all, which is why generalizations are a bad idea.
Ok, lets address this one at a time. I am aware of insulin shock therapy. These folks were made clinically hypoglycemic. I am not an expert, but having worked with diabetic treatments, I have no doubt that CLINICAL, below 60, will cause hunger. Though not in people who do not have clinical hypoglycemia. I would also love to see the evidence that "any" insulin diabetic gets hungry from insulin therapy. I have quite a few that they do not want to eat. I lived as an un diagnosed type 2 dm. My sign and symptoms were weight loss! Not weight gain. As my body could not process the energy I was intaking. Hunger, sure, because I was starving. Now, I have seen people "reverse", I won't say cure, my a high carb diet. What makes them reverse said symptoms is weight loss. I have seen one study were their adlib diet was 80% carbs and weight loss and diabetic reversal happened. There is also the evidence, will post upon request, that folks with higher insulin levels do not gain more weight than people with lower levels over time. Pretty damning evidence for insulin causing hunger. Last, insulin is a satiety hormone. It tells the brain the body is in a fed state.4 -
psychod787 wrote: »(I should add that I'm not at all anti fat, as I would hope my meal examples demonstrate. I also do think people may have natural macro patterns that they find more sating than others. I don't pay attention to macros, but when eating at a deficit or when simply not all that active, I tend to eat a 40 (carb) - 30 - 30 pattern just because to me that fits the meals I find tasty, satisfying, and sating. With more cals (either no deficit, more active, or both), I tend to keep protein about the same in total grams (so lower percentage) and up both fat and carbs a bit. But I don't do any of this purposefully, as I find focusing on protein and then nutrition more helpful for me than trying to hit a certain macro ratio. But for me cheese is way easier to overeat -- if it's good cheese! -- than plain potato, rice, or pasta ever would be, and adding butter to the potato or to some bread makes me much more likely to overdo that.)
I'm not anti fat either. I just think letting come mostly from minimally refine, whole food sources is a good idea. I would also argue, that when calorie density of the different meals are held constant, with fiber and protein matched, calories coming from fat vs carbs doesn't matter much. In research, both seem to be equally sating. So, until futher research is available, im using Alder's Razor.
As usual in these discussions, we are largely in agreement.2 -
I did Keto a couple years ago when it was crazy popular. I remember that I stayed hungry and constantly had to worry about my electrolytes. I was swimming in butter and bullet proof coffee and it just never had that same "full" affect that people said it did. Nor did my cravings ever go away-- in fact, it made me more bingey because I was so all or nothing. That's not to knock anyone who does Keto, it just didn't have the satiating effect on me that others claimed it to have.1
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Speaking strictly from personal experience, starches are probably what's easiest for me to overeat.
I can go overboard with nuts and chips simply because of how calorically dense they are, but I definitely feel it afterwards. Bread, rice and pasta, though... yeah, I can eat a ton of it without really feeling full, even with minimal fat or protein on top; especially if salty, sweets just don't have the same appeal. YMMV, obviously.2 -
People are very different. I just can't imagine any desire to eat large amounts of plain rice, pasta, or bread. They are so bland.2
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breefoshee wrote: »I did Keto a couple years ago when it was crazy popular. I remember that I stayed hungry and constantly had to worry about my electrolytes. I was swimming in butter and bullet proof coffee and it just never had that same "full" affect that people said it did. Nor did my cravings ever go away-- in fact, it made me more bingey because I was so all or nothing. That's not to knock anyone who does Keto, it just didn't have the satiating effect on me that others claimed it to have.
I think you unfortunately fell for some of the non sense in the Keto community. There is no need to add butter to everything or drink Keto coffee. In fact, i tend to eat leaner meats and add fats through guacamole and occasionally a butter sauce. But more often, i rather save those calories for my milkshake or low GI fruits.2 -
People are very different. I just can't imagine any desire to eat large amounts of plain rice, pasta, or bread. They are so bland.
Pasta does need a little fat to help it along, but water, rice and a soup cube is all you need for a flavourful dish, and fresh bread with a crispy crust (ideally still warm) is
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breefoshee wrote: »I did Keto a couple years ago when it was crazy popular. I remember that I stayed hungry and constantly had to worry about my electrolytes. I was swimming in butter and bullet proof coffee and it just never had that same "full" affect that people said it did. Nor did my cravings ever go away-- in fact, it made me more bingey because I was so all or nothing. That's not to knock anyone who does Keto, it just didn't have the satiating effect on me that others claimed it to have.
I think you unfortunately fell for some of the non sense in the Keto community. There is no need to add butter to everything or drink Keto coffee. In fact, i tend to eat leaner meats and add fats through guacamole and occasionally a butter sauce. But more often, i rather save those calories for my milkshake or low GI fruits.
I definitely did. I think I did the coffee more because it felt like a treat and I really didn't know else what to have and heavy whipping cream in coffee is heaven. But that was like 300 of my calories a day that I could have been eating. I was also super strick on the net 20 carbs, when I might have done better starting at 50.1 -
breefoshee wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I did Keto a couple years ago when it was crazy popular. I remember that I stayed hungry and constantly had to worry about my electrolytes. I was swimming in butter and bullet proof coffee and it just never had that same "full" affect that people said it did. Nor did my cravings ever go away-- in fact, it made me more bingey because I was so all or nothing. That's not to knock anyone who does Keto, it just didn't have the satiating effect on me that others claimed it to have.
I think you unfortunately fell for some of the non sense in the Keto community. There is no need to add butter to everything or drink Keto coffee. In fact, i tend to eat leaner meats and add fats through guacamole and occasionally a butter sauce. But more often, i rather save those calories for my milkshake or low GI fruits.
I definitely did. I think I did the coffee more because it felt like a treat and I really didn't know else what to have and heavy whipping cream in coffee is heaven. But that was like 300 of my calories a day that I could have been eating. I was also super strick on the net 20 carbs, when I might have done better starting at 50.
For 300 calories, you could have had one of the below. So much better than keto coffee and much more filling.
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breefoshee wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I did Keto a couple years ago when it was crazy popular. I remember that I stayed hungry and constantly had to worry about my electrolytes. I was swimming in butter and bullet proof coffee and it just never had that same "full" affect that people said it did. Nor did my cravings ever go away-- in fact, it made me more bingey because I was so all or nothing. That's not to knock anyone who does Keto, it just didn't have the satiating effect on me that others claimed it to have.
I think you unfortunately fell for some of the non sense in the Keto community. There is no need to add butter to everything or drink Keto coffee. In fact, i tend to eat leaner meats and add fats through guacamole and occasionally a butter sauce. But more often, i rather save those calories for my milkshake or low GI fruits.
I definitely did. I think I did the coffee more because it felt like a treat and I really didn't know else what to have and heavy whipping cream in coffee is heaven. But that was like 300 of my calories a day that I could have been eating. I was also super strick on the net 20 carbs, when I might have done better starting at 50.
For 300 calories, you could have had one of the below. So much better than keto coffee and much more filling.
Similar to making a "Paleo" microwave brownie?
https://joyfoodsunshine.com/paleo-microwave-brownie/
Those run ~230 calories, ~15 net carbs.0 -
@psuLemon is that Chia Seed Pudding? I may have to dust the old keto off and give it a try just for this
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So these are my own creations. Top is a chocolate protein mousse.
4 tbsp heavy cream
1/2 scoop chocolate protein powder (i use quest or PEScience since blends work better for cooking)
2 tsp sweetener
1 oz full fat cream cheese
1 tbsp extra dark cocoa powder
Calories: 330, P - 14.5, F-26.5, C-4.5
Optional toppings are whipped cream and shredded Lilly's Chocolate Chips (keto friendly)
The bottom is my keto milkshake.
1 scoop Quest or PEScience protein
8oz almond milk
2-3g xantham gum
2 tbsp half and half (saves calories over heavy cream)
1 cup ice
Optional toppings are whipped cream and shredded Lilly's Chocolate Chips (keto friendly)
Calories (with whipped cream) - 260, P -27, F - 12g, C - 8, NC-5
In the picture i have Lilly's Chocolate Chips that are chopped. Its a chocolate chip shake.
This is only a small part of what i can do. You should see the other recipes i have 😉
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cmriverside wrote: »
Its called a teaser lol.1 -
cmriverside wrote: »
Its called a teaser lol.
TYVM *flowerforyou* because the old emos are broken.0 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I did Keto a couple years ago when it was crazy popular. I remember that I stayed hungry and constantly had to worry about my electrolytes. I was swimming in butter and bullet proof coffee and it just never had that same "full" affect that people said it did. Nor did my cravings ever go away-- in fact, it made me more bingey because I was so all or nothing. That's not to knock anyone who does Keto, it just didn't have the satiating effect on me that others claimed it to have.
I think you unfortunately fell for some of the non sense in the Keto community. There is no need to add butter to everything or drink Keto coffee. In fact, i tend to eat leaner meats and add fats through guacamole and occasionally a butter sauce. But more often, i rather save those calories for my milkshake or low GI fruits.
I definitely did. I think I did the coffee more because it felt like a treat and I really didn't know else what to have and heavy whipping cream in coffee is heaven. But that was like 300 of my calories a day that I could have been eating. I was also super strick on the net 20 carbs, when I might have done better starting at 50.
For 300 calories, you could have had one of the below. So much better than keto coffee and much more filling.
Similar to making a "Paleo" microwave brownie?
https://joyfoodsunshine.com/paleo-microwave-brownie/
Those run ~230 calories, ~15 net carbs.
Definitely looks good. Keto version below
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psychod787 wrote: »(I should add that I'm not at all anti fat, as I would hope my meal examples demonstrate. I also do think people may have natural macro patterns that they find more sating than others. I don't pay attention to macros, but when eating at a deficit or when simply not all that active, I tend to eat a 40 (carb) - 30 - 30 pattern just because to me that fits the meals I find tasty, satisfying, and sating. With more cals (either no deficit, more active, or both), I tend to keep protein about the same in total grams (so lower percentage) and up both fat and carbs a bit. But I don't do any of this purposefully, as I find focusing on protein and then nutrition more helpful for me than trying to hit a certain macro ratio. But for me cheese is way easier to overeat -- if it's good cheese! -- than plain potato, rice, or pasta ever would be, and adding butter to the potato or to some bread makes me much more likely to overdo that.)
I'm not anti fat either. I just think letting come mostly from minimally refine, whole food sources is a good idea. I would also argue, that when calorie density of the different meals are held constant, with fiber and protein matched, calories coming from fat vs carbs doesn't matter much. In research, both seem to be equally sating. So, until futher research is available, im using Alder's Razor.
As usual in these discussions, we are largely in agreement.
Yes ma'am, we are pretty like minded. Keep it up and I might start liking you. Oh lord. There goes my reputation for being crotchety...🤣2
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