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Please help with this argument- Intermittent fasting related

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  • NovusDiesNovusDies Posts: 5,945Member, Premium Member Posts: 5,945Member, Premium Member
    J72FIT wrote: »
    Why can't you just leave it as, "IF works for me"..? Why must it be further qualified as superior..?

    Internet. You can't say you went fishing you have to claim to catch a monster.
  • PWHFPWHF Posts: 211Member, Premium Member Posts: 211Member, Premium Member
    J72FIT wrote: »
    Why can't you just leave it as, "IF works for me"..? Why must it be further qualified as superior..?

    Amen!
  • PWHFPWHF Posts: 211Member, Premium Member Posts: 211Member, Premium Member
    NovusDies wrote: »
    J72FIT wrote: »
    Why can't you just leave it as, "IF works for me"..? Why must it be further qualified as superior..?

    Internet. You can't say you went fishing you have to claim to catch a monster.

    I set up one of those tiger repelling rings (too many tigers venturing onto my property..) and caught a flying spaghetti monster in it. No one believes me when I tell them but that's OK, I know what I saw...
  • fitnessguy266fitnessguy266 Posts: 30Member Member Posts: 30Member Member
    NovusDies wrote: »
    I feel my best when I fast during the day, and I eat one large meal in the evening. I have no idea of the exact science behind it except that it works for me.
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    To add more substance....i tested Atkins, Keto, and a standard caloric deficit of 1600 calories within a concrete 6 week period measuring results....i could never crack under 9% bf without IF....taking into consideration that every individual's results are HIGHLY different based off genetics etc....it's safe to conclude in my case that IF principles were the deciding factor in achieving my desired results.


    /thread

    How does one person's personal 6 week experience "/thread"?

    I guess you're assuming that your body reacted immediately to how you were eating on a daily basis? What kind of structure did you set up to ensure absolutely no other variables changed during that 6 weeks? Are you a professional researcher? What equipment did you use to measure bf? Calorie burns? Did you sleep the exact same minutes every week? Do you use a step tracker? What about environmental conditions? How did you measure your hydration? Did you quantify digestive transit time and waste production?

    I didn't "overcomplicate" the process with all the methods you are asking me about lol, but good questions nonetheless. However nothing changed in terms of food and caloric intake, same place of employment, same daily routine, same sleep pattern (11pm-7pm) same workout days (Mon, Wed, Fri). Sunday is a day I bump my caloric intake to roughly 2300-2600 to allow for social fun (alcohol and the like) drinking exclusively red wine.....


    To attempt to dissect it further to find the more effective approach with other methods you mentioned is simply unnecessary....has anyone here actually TRIED Intermittent Fasting as an alternative approach to what they have tried in the past? I'm genuinely very curious....

    But in order to effectively end this debate, you need to account for all those variables. Most people are summarily awful at clearly seeing which factors we're most important in achieving success or failure, and the human body is a complicated machine with lots of difficult to measure inputs and outputs. It's one of the issues that make nutritional and health related research so difficult, even in a controlled clinical setting. With all due respect, no one has any reason to trust that you successfully controlled other variables, accurately measured the variables you did account for, and viewed everything with a clinical and unbiased eye

    If you want to say that based on your 6 week experiment, it's definitive that IF is the best strategy for you to reduce your bf, that's great. But you did not prove that as a universal benefit of IF for everyone and a reason to end the thread.

    And most of the folks in this and other IF debate threads are doing or have previously done IF. It's a great strategy to control calories and appetite for some people, and it seems that for some people that eating schedule helps them improve energy and performance, digestion, or sleep. But no one has managed to show and then replicate in legit research that IF is universally healthier or in any way universally "better" than a more traditional eating schedule for anything. It's still in the category of "to each his/her own", can't hurt to try, but isn't right for everyone and for some people it's actually wrong".

    Excellent post @kimny72, and to add to this, the point where it was claimed that calorie intake did not change at all is where I call BS. If calorie intake is exactly the same, then IF is not going to magically accelerate weight loss. It just isn't no matter how many people chime in with their personal anecdotes. As a dozen other people have pointed out in this thread, IF can help SOME people restrict calories which can aid in weight loss, but meal timing in itself doesn't invalidate CICO.

    I respect your opinion, however as I mentioned neither caloric intake or food choices changed...and you mentioned "weight loss"....i emphasized "fat loss" results, did i not? Anxiously awaiting for you to tell me that "recomposition" could not possibly be a factor using IF.....

    Its absolutely possible to recomp using IF, however, IF is not going to magically accelerate fat loss when calories consumed are the same. Again, IF works for SOME people because it can help to limit their overall calorie intake, but when calories are the same, regardless of when they are consumed, fat loss will be the same as well.


    I hear you, believe me. However, nothing changed activity wise, stress level wise, diet or routine.....but due to some "sorcery" the results were worlds apart.....? But i digress

    The results could not be worlds apart in 6 weeks. How much fat do you think you lost or converted during that amount of time?

    When you get to low levels of bodyfat, and have a significant improvement in dropping lower (2% bf decrease) versus other methods....in THIS sport, that is classified as "worlds apart" my friend.....for me in that period, that was a little over 6 lbs.
  • fitnessguy266fitnessguy266 Posts: 30Member Member Posts: 30Member Member
    J72FIT wrote: »
    I feel my best when I fast during the day, and I eat one large meal in the evening. I have no idea of the exact science behind it except that it works for me.
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    To add more substance....i tested Atkins, Keto, and a standard caloric deficit of 1600 calories within a concrete 6 week period measuring results....i could never crack under 9% bf without IF....taking into consideration that every individual's results are HIGHLY different based off genetics etc....it's safe to conclude in my case that IF principles were the deciding factor in achieving my desired results.


    /thread

    How does one person's personal 6 week experience "/thread"?

    I guess you're assuming that your body reacted immediately to how you were eating on a daily basis? What kind of structure did you set up to ensure absolutely no other variables changed during that 6 weeks? Are you a professional researcher? What equipment did you use to measure bf? Calorie burns? Did you sleep the exact same minutes every week? Do you use a step tracker? What about environmental conditions? How did you measure your hydration? Did you quantify digestive transit time and waste production?

    I didn't "overcomplicate" the process with all the methods you are asking me about lol, but good questions nonetheless. However nothing changed in terms of food and caloric intake, same place of employment, same daily routine, same sleep pattern (11pm-7pm) same workout days (Mon, Wed, Fri). Sunday is a day I bump my caloric intake to roughly 2300-2600 to allow for social fun (alcohol and the like) drinking exclusively red wine.....


    To attempt to dissect it further to find the more effective approach with other methods you mentioned is simply unnecessary....has anyone here actually TRIED Intermittent Fasting as an alternative approach to what they have tried in the past? I'm genuinely very curious....

    But in order to effectively end this debate, you need to account for all those variables. Most people are summarily awful at clearly seeing which factors we're most important in achieving success or failure, and the human body is a complicated machine with lots of difficult to measure inputs and outputs. It's one of the issues that make nutritional and health related research so difficult, even in a controlled clinical setting. With all due respect, no one has any reason to trust that you successfully controlled other variables, accurately measured the variables you did account for, and viewed everything with a clinical and unbiased eye

    If you want to say that based on your 6 week experiment, it's definitive that IF is the best strategy for you to reduce your bf, that's great. But you did not prove that as a universal benefit of IF for everyone and a reason to end the thread.

    And most of the folks in this and other IF debate threads are doing or have previously done IF. It's a great strategy to control calories and appetite for some people, and it seems that for some people that eating schedule helps them improve energy and performance, digestion, or sleep. But no one has managed to show and then replicate in legit research that IF is universally healthier or in any way universally "better" than a more traditional eating schedule for anything. It's still in the category of "to each his/her own", can't hurt to try, but isn't right for everyone and for some people it's actually wrong".

    Excellent post @kimny72, and to add to this, the point where it was claimed that calorie intake did not change at all is where I call BS. If calorie intake is exactly the same, then IF is not going to magically accelerate weight loss. It just isn't no matter how many people chime in with their personal anecdotes. As a dozen other people have pointed out in this thread, IF can help SOME people restrict calories which can aid in weight loss, but meal timing in itself doesn't invalidate CICO.

    I respect your opinion, however as I mentioned neither caloric intake or food choices changed...and you mentioned "weight loss"....i emphasized "fat loss" results, did i not? Anxiously awaiting for you to tell me that "recomposition" could not possibly be a factor using IF.....

    Its absolutely possible to recomp using IF, however, IF is not going to magically accelerate fat loss when calories consumed are the same. Again, IF works for SOME people because it can help to limit their overall calorie intake, but when calories are the same, regardless of when they are consumed, fat loss will be the same as well.


    I hear you, believe me. However, nothing changed activity wise, stress level wise, diet or routine.....but due to some "sorcery" the results were worlds apart.....? But i digress

    That you know of...

    Possible, but unlikely....and more than likely not in a reasonable, quantifiable timeframe to even discuss either.
  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Posts: 3,555Member Member Posts: 3,555Member Member
    J72FIT wrote: »
    Why can't you just leave it as, "IF works for me"..? Why must it be further qualified as superior..?

    Weird to disagree with a question (as quoted above). A normal person with any cojones would just answer the question.
    edited November 20
  • J72FITJ72FIT Posts: 5,338Member Member Posts: 5,338Member Member
    J72FIT wrote: »
    I feel my best when I fast during the day, and I eat one large meal in the evening. I have no idea of the exact science behind it except that it works for me.
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    kimny72 wrote: »
    To add more substance....i tested Atkins, Keto, and a standard caloric deficit of 1600 calories within a concrete 6 week period measuring results....i could never crack under 9% bf without IF....taking into consideration that every individual's results are HIGHLY different based off genetics etc....it's safe to conclude in my case that IF principles were the deciding factor in achieving my desired results.


    /thread

    How does one person's personal 6 week experience "/thread"?

    I guess you're assuming that your body reacted immediately to how you were eating on a daily basis? What kind of structure did you set up to ensure absolutely no other variables changed during that 6 weeks? Are you a professional researcher? What equipment did you use to measure bf? Calorie burns? Did you sleep the exact same minutes every week? Do you use a step tracker? What about environmental conditions? How did you measure your hydration? Did you quantify digestive transit time and waste production?

    I didn't "overcomplicate" the process with all the methods you are asking me about lol, but good questions nonetheless. However nothing changed in terms of food and caloric intake, same place of employment, same daily routine, same sleep pattern (11pm-7pm) same workout days (Mon, Wed, Fri). Sunday is a day I bump my caloric intake to roughly 2300-2600 to allow for social fun (alcohol and the like) drinking exclusively red wine.....


    To attempt to dissect it further to find the more effective approach with other methods you mentioned is simply unnecessary....has anyone here actually TRIED Intermittent Fasting as an alternative approach to what they have tried in the past? I'm genuinely very curious....

    But in order to effectively end this debate, you need to account for all those variables. Most people are summarily awful at clearly seeing which factors we're most important in achieving success or failure, and the human body is a complicated machine with lots of difficult to measure inputs and outputs. It's one of the issues that make nutritional and health related research so difficult, even in a controlled clinical setting. With all due respect, no one has any reason to trust that you successfully controlled other variables, accurately measured the variables you did account for, and viewed everything with a clinical and unbiased eye

    If you want to say that based on your 6 week experiment, it's definitive that IF is the best strategy for you to reduce your bf, that's great. But you did not prove that as a universal benefit of IF for everyone and a reason to end the thread.

    And most of the folks in this and other IF debate threads are doing or have previously done IF. It's a great strategy to control calories and appetite for some people, and it seems that for some people that eating schedule helps them improve energy and performance, digestion, or sleep. But no one has managed to show and then replicate in legit research that IF is universally healthier or in any way universally "better" than a more traditional eating schedule for anything. It's still in the category of "to each his/her own", can't hurt to try, but isn't right for everyone and for some people it's actually wrong".

    Excellent post @kimny72, and to add to this, the point where it was claimed that calorie intake did not change at all is where I call BS. If calorie intake is exactly the same, then IF is not going to magically accelerate weight loss. It just isn't no matter how many people chime in with their personal anecdotes. As a dozen other people have pointed out in this thread, IF can help SOME people restrict calories which can aid in weight loss, but meal timing in itself doesn't invalidate CICO.

    I respect your opinion, however as I mentioned neither caloric intake or food choices changed...and you mentioned "weight loss"....i emphasized "fat loss" results, did i not? Anxiously awaiting for you to tell me that "recomposition" could not possibly be a factor using IF.....

    Its absolutely possible to recomp using IF, however, IF is not going to magically accelerate fat loss when calories consumed are the same. Again, IF works for SOME people because it can help to limit their overall calorie intake, but when calories are the same, regardless of when they are consumed, fat loss will be the same as well.


    I hear you, believe me. However, nothing changed activity wise, stress level wise, diet or routine.....but due to some "sorcery" the results were worlds apart.....? But i digress

    That you know of...

    Possible, but unlikely....and more than likely not in a reasonable, quantifiable timeframe to even discuss either.

    Or even more likely, not enough to make a significant difference outside of the calorie deficit...
  • magnusthenerdmagnusthenerd Posts: 865Member Member Posts: 865Member Member
    PWHF wrote: »
    NovusDies wrote: »
    J72FIT wrote: »
    Why can't you just leave it as, "IF works for me"..? Why must it be further qualified as superior..?

    Internet. You can't say you went fishing you have to claim to catch a monster.

    I set up one of those tiger repelling rings (too many tigers venturing onto my property..) and caught a flying spaghetti monster in it. No one believes me when I tell them but that's OK, I know what I saw...
    I guess I don't understand, if you had someone legitimately and sincerely proclaiming to you they caught a flying spaghetti monster, your reaction wouldn't be to worry about their mental health? I mean, let's be clear, there are no FSM out there. You are describing a scenario where someone almost has legit has delusions, is possibly schizophrenic, and your thought is, why wouldn't you let that person persist in that schizophrenia?
  • PWHFPWHF Posts: 211Member, Premium Member Posts: 211Member, Premium Member
    PWHF wrote: »
    PWHF wrote: »
    PWHF wrote: »
    IF has been proving many cellular, fat loss, muscle retaining, and many more benefits far beyond just caloric restriction. I have personally executed many different diet approaches, and IF has proven far superior to any other result wise. My two cents

    This is exactly my personal experience as well. I wouldn't bother engaging in the debate here, life is too short. Good on you and enjoy your results B)

    If someone (who lives in the USA, not say India) claimed that they had great success with their tiger repelling ring, would you tell them life is too short when others try to convince them the ring isn't the explanation for their dearth of tiger incidents? If the person valued believing in their tiger ring above all else, you would be giving great advice though. Discussing it with people here would eventually lead them to think differently about that ring.

    No it wouldn't, if said person had tried several methods and through trial and error found that the tiger repelling ring worked for them they'd keep doing what they were doing as long as it worked. Flipping it on it's head - if the people trying to convince them valued their opinion above all else and it became apparent that the conversation would just go round in an endless loop the person might decide life is too short to engage in arguing it round in circles.

    My conclusion is that I don't care what other people's opinions are of what I'm doing and as long as it brings me goo d results I will keep doing it. If it stops working I'll stop doing it. I'll leave the debating to the debaters and wish you all a nice day.

    Sorry, let me put a further qualification on it, and the person is rational.
    Saying it works for them is misunderstanding the scenario, or how evidence works. Do... do you understand the whole point is a tiger repelling ring can't be shown to work in a region that doesn't have tigers? I don't want to come off belaboring but your attempts to alter the example scenario comes off as needing this stated explicitly. Changing the scenario doesn't really engage in the argument. It would be like me taking an IF scenario and saying "well what if the person was practicing IF and their feeding window was 20 hours wide and it stopped working? Clearly that would show IF doesn't work."

    The point was that I'll take my personal experience and keep doing what I'm doing and choose not to argue to death about it on an Internet forum. The tiger repelling ring (which I didn't bother to Google) I just went with as it is what you likened IF to, you could have easily have said 'flying spaghetti monster' and my response would still have been "I don't care, it works for me, have a nice day".

    Call me irrational and tell me I "value believing in my tiger ring above all else", tell the other guy (and anyone else with similar experiences) that their personal experience is 'wrong'. While it's working I'll keep doing it.

    I still don't understand the motivation behind being so anti-IF. Surely if you don't think something works just don't do it and if someone asks you about it share your opinion. Why the drive to shut it down so aggressively? What is that about?

    Except, I'm not. I'm fine with people doing IF. Don't mischaracterize me to try to make me appear emotional or unreasonable simply because you don't have rational arguments for your own position. Pretty simple, quote me one single post I've made where I've told someone don't do IF besides people who have actually had an issue with how IF worked for them.
    To the extent that I am vehement on anything, it is merely that I don't like people doing things for false reasons. It gets pretty close to, if not actually being, the case of someone being lied to, and possibly spreading the lies because they've been convinced. Is that such an odd stance to take? You wouldn't be concerned about someone who believes in magical results from a ring, and particularly if he tried to recruit others into using the rings, particularly if you knew there were ring-makers out there selling rings with obviously false promises, that they know are false?

    Are you suggesting that I'm spreading lies and trying to recruit people into IF for the benefit of people selling IF related courses? Do you think I (and other pro IF posters) have some kind of nefarious agenda that you need to swoop in on and defend the fad dieters from?

    What are you positioning yourself as in creating that scenario?
  • PWHFPWHF Posts: 211Member, Premium Member Posts: 211Member, Premium Member
    PWHF wrote: »
    NovusDies wrote: »
    J72FIT wrote: »
    Why can't you just leave it as, "IF works for me"..? Why must it be further qualified as superior..?

    Internet. You can't say you went fishing you have to claim to catch a monster.

    I set up one of those tiger repelling rings (too many tigers venturing onto my property..) and caught a flying spaghetti monster in it. No one believes me when I tell them but that's OK, I know what I saw...
    I guess I don't understand, if you had someone legitimately and sincerely proclaiming to you they caught a flying spaghetti monster, your reaction wouldn't be to worry about their mental health? I mean, let's be clear, there are no FSM out there. You are describing a scenario where someone almost has legit has delusions, is possibly schizophrenic, and your thought is, why wouldn't you let that person persist in that schizophrenia?

    Basically the tigers kept eating my unicorns and when I decided enough was enough I set up a tiger repelling ring. It worked a treat for repelling the tigers but caught a flying spaghetti monster which is now eating the unicorns instead of the tigers. I'm thinking of trying to release it back into space but I'm not sure of a safe way to do this. Do you have any suggestions? Preferably based on a peer reviewed scientific paper - I don't want to take any risks...
  • J72FITJ72FIT Posts: 5,338Member Member Posts: 5,338Member Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    I do think that you may have drank a little too much Kool-Aid and are misattributing your results to IF instead of placing the credit where it does belong.

    ^^^This...
  • PWHFPWHF Posts: 211Member, Premium Member Posts: 211Member, Premium Member
    wmd1979 wrote: »
    PWHF wrote: »
    PWHF wrote: »
    PWHF wrote: »
    PWHF wrote: »
    IF has been proving many cellular, fat loss, muscle retaining, and many more benefits far beyond just caloric restriction. I have personally executed many different diet approaches, and IF has proven far superior to any other result wise. My two cents

    This is exactly my personal experience as well. I wouldn't bother engaging in the debate here, life is too short. Good on you and enjoy your results B)

    If someone (who lives in the USA, not say India) claimed that they had great success with their tiger repelling ring, would you tell them life is too short when others try to convince them the ring isn't the explanation for their dearth of tiger incidents? If the person valued believing in their tiger ring above all else, you would be giving great advice though. Discussing it with people here would eventually lead them to think differently about that ring.

    No it wouldn't, if said person had tried several methods and through trial and error found that the tiger repelling ring worked for them they'd keep doing what they were doing as long as it worked. Flipping it on it's head - if the people trying to convince them valued their opinion above all else and it became apparent that the conversation would just go round in an endless loop the person might decide life is too short to engage in arguing it round in circles.

    My conclusion is that I don't care what other people's opinions are of what I'm doing and as long as it brings me goo d results I will keep doing it. If it stops working I'll stop doing it. I'll leave the debating to the debaters and wish you all a nice day.

    Sorry, let me put a further qualification on it, and the person is rational.
    Saying it works for them is misunderstanding the scenario, or how evidence works. Do... do you understand the whole point is a tiger repelling ring can't be shown to work in a region that doesn't have tigers? I don't want to come off belaboring but your attempts to alter the example scenario comes off as needing this stated explicitly. Changing the scenario doesn't really engage in the argument. It would be like me taking an IF scenario and saying "well what if the person was practicing IF and their feeding window was 20 hours wide and it stopped working? Clearly that would show IF doesn't work."

    The point was that I'll take my personal experience and keep doing what I'm doing and choose not to argue to death about it on an Internet forum. The tiger repelling ring (which I didn't bother to Google) I just went with as it is what you likened IF to, you could have easily have said 'flying spaghetti monster' and my response would still have been "I don't care, it works for me, have a nice day".

    Call me irrational and tell me I "value believing in my tiger ring above all else", tell the other guy (and anyone else with similar experiences) that their personal experience is 'wrong'. While it's working I'll keep doing it.

    I still don't understand the motivation behind being so anti-IF. Surely if you don't think something works just don't do it and if someone asks you about it share your opinion. Why the drive to shut it down so aggressively? What is that about?

    Except, I'm not. I'm fine with people doing IF. Don't mischaracterize me to try to make me appear emotional or unreasonable simply because you don't have rational arguments for your own position. Pretty simple, quote me one single post I've made where I've told someone don't do IF besides people who have actually had an issue with how IF worked for them.
    To the extent that I am vehement on anything, it is merely that I don't like people doing things for false reasons. It gets pretty close to, if not actually being, the case of someone being lied to, and possibly spreading the lies because they've been convinced. Is that such an odd stance to take? You wouldn't be concerned about someone who believes in magical results from a ring, and particularly if he tried to recruit others into using the rings, particularly if you knew there were ring-makers out there selling rings with obviously false promises, that they know are false?

    Are you suggesting that I'm spreading lies and trying to recruit people into IF for the benefit of people selling IF related courses? Do you think I (and other pro IF posters) have some kind of nefarious agenda that you need to swoop in on and defend the fad dieters from?

    What are you positioning yourself as in creating that scenario?

    I know you didn't quote me in your response, but to the bolded its obvious that there are people out there trying to sell IF based on dubious claims just to make money. I don't necessarily think those are your motives, but I do think that you may have drank a little too much Kool-Aid and are misattributing your results to IF instead of placing the credit where it does belong. That was the point of the whole tiger repelling ring analogy that seemed to completely go over your head. The reason you get called out on it, is because its one thing to believe what you want, but you continue to double down on your belief and you turned a perfectly rational analogy into a completely nonsensical joke. There are people out there looking for advice, and no matter what your motives are, you aren't helping these people because you can't even make a rational argument yourself. IF isn't magic. Its a tool that works for some by limiting caloric consumption. That can help some lose weight because it limits CI, and CICO is what controls weight loss or gain. There is no other magic surrounding it. No unicorns, no tigers, and no FSM.

    I can only share my personal experiences like others have tried to only to get very aggressively shut down and told that they are making claims and their personal experiences are somehow wrong. I've been doing the IF + lifting thing for a while now and it's been more effective than when I did just lifting + tracking and adherance.

    I got the tiger repelling ring thing and decided to not take it seriously because when someone in a debate tries the position themselves as the authority and categorically right then tried to illustrate that in a patronizing and condescending way then the 'debate' is no longer to be taken seriously.

    FWIW those of us that do see results from IF and believe in it see the other side as just as irrational as we are being labelled. It would be good if the topic being debated could be stuck to without calling those who disagree with you deluded and irrational.

    As for those appointing themselves the role of truth defenders to protect those looking for advice. If you need to make yourself look and feel like a good guy on the Internet maybe you could find a way of doing it without having to make other people into 'bad guys'. It's not your place to appoint yourselves as judge/jury/executioner and truth police.

    Still doing IF, still enjoying the results - My position on this was stated by another poster earlier:

    "Why can't you just leave it as, "IF works for me"..? Why must it be further qualified as superior..?"

    I'm more than happy to leave it at that and not qualify it as superior. Unfortunately the #cancelIF crowd insist on telling me (and others) that actually it doesn't work for us and our personal experiences are wrong...
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