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Why ask why?
Replies
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cwolfman13 wrote: »IDK...I can see how the context of your goals would matter. My buddy is a competitive power lifter and fairly new to it. Relative to other power lifters he competes against right now he's about average...maybe a little below average. Relative to a body builder, he's above average. Relative to myself as just a guy who hits the weight room to be functionally strong, he blows me out of the water.
It is helpful in a lot of cases. But in other cases it just confuses the discussion. If I asked what would be considered a decent 5k time, telling you my goal could skew the answers either up or down. This taints the answer and may cause it to be unusable depending on the motives for asking the question.
Furthermore, if you don’t tell them your goal when asked, it makes things awkward. If you say you have no goals, you look like a slacker.
I just find the insistence of knowing your goals before providing an answer odd. Sounds like I’m the only person to feel this way...0 -
allother94 wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »Also-in my 8 years here, I have yet to see a single question asked on MFP that hasn’t been addressed by Google.
I find that hard to believe. If you want to test this theory, I will posted the last question I asked and would love to see you try to answer it with google only.
I'll play. What's the last question you asked?0 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »allother94 wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »For 99% or fitness questions, the proper answer depends very much on the details.
Details? yes. The personal goal of the person asking the question? No
Then just stop asking the questions since this seems to bother you so much? I dunno what else to tell you.
How many times in this thread do I need to say this doesn’t bother me; and has often helped me?
I’m just responding to those who are trying to prove me wrong. I enjoy these logical debates. If you don’t, then don’t respond. I dunno what else to tell you.
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If you worked your behind off so you can bench press 50 lbs, and your goal is 75 pounds because you feel like that's a lot, and then I tell you the average is 150 pounds, then maybe I've just crushed your spirit.
Very few people are ever asking the question they really want the answer to. Maybe you're the exception but I don't know you from Jack so I don't know if a straight answer to your question will cause harm.
If you can't be bothered to properly explain yourself, then the answers you get will almost always be questions. Especially here, where people are a bit more sensitive to how fragile mental health can be around our bodies.11 -
allother94 wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »Also-in my 8 years here, I have yet to see a single question asked on MFP that hasn’t been addressed by Google.
I find that hard to believe. If you want to test this theory, I will posted the last question I asked and would love to see you try to answer it with google only.
I'll play. What's the last question you asked?
Alright. Let the fun begin. I’ve doctored the question a little, but this is a typical question I would ask. For enjoyment sake, let’s just play the game using the below only.
I just finished the c25k program. This means I just completed my first 5k. As you can imagine, my time was pretty bad. If I ran a 5k twice a week, how much would you guess my time would improve in 2 months?
Challenge #1: Find something on google that would answer this specific question
Challenge #2: Explain how your answer would differ if my goal was to become a professional 5k runner vs. just someone who enjoys running 5ks
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If you worked your behind off so you can bench press 50 lbs, and your goal is 75 pounds because you feel like that's a lot, and then I tell you the average is 150 pounds, then maybe I've just crushed your spirit..
Wait, you would lie to me? What if I wanted to know the truth? Are you saying that all the advice I’ve been giveN so far is just a bunch of lies used to make me feel better? How can you ever know what is real?2 -
If you can't be bothered to properly explain yourself, then the answers you get will almost always be questions. Especially here, where people are a bit more sensitive to how fragile mental health can be around our bodies.
It’s not that I can’t be bothered. I just didn’t realized I needed to say that I wanted to know the truth. I guess that is why it seemed so odd to me.2 -
allother94 wrote: »If you worked your behind off so you can bench press 50 lbs, and your goal is 75 pounds because you feel like that's a lot, and then I tell you the average is 150 pounds, then maybe I've just crushed your spirit..
Wait, you would lie to me? What if I wanted to know the truth? Are you saying that all the advice I’ve been giveN so far is just a bunch of lies used to make me feel better? How can you ever know what is real?
No, but I might use different language or frame it differently, add in different information, or offer advice/encouragement to exceed your goals. Is it true, is it necessary, is it kind. You apparently seem to think that last one doesn't matter, or is lies, which is ridiculous.
But you're clearly not interested in changing your mind or accepting that your thinking might be off on this one, so I'll leave it at that.6 -
I find it odd that someone thinks it is okay to tell a forum of unpaid people who volunteer their time that they are helping people the wrong way.15
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allother94 wrote: »If you worked your behind off so you can bench press 50 lbs, and your goal is 75 pounds because you feel like that's a lot, and then I tell you the average is 150 pounds, then maybe I've just crushed your spirit..
Wait, you would lie to me? What if I wanted to know the truth? Are you saying that all the advice I’ve been giveN so far is just a bunch of lies used to make me feel better? How can you ever know what is real?
No, but I might use different language or frame it differently, add in different information, or offer advice/encouragement to exceed your goals. Is it true, is it necessary, is it kind. You apparently seem to think that last one doesn't matter, or is lies, which is ridiculous.
But you're clearly not interested in changing your mind or accepting that your thinking might be off on this one, so I'll leave it at that.
You can politely and kindly answer a question without knowing their goals. I took from your prior post that you would not tell them the correct answer of 150 in order to spare their feelings. If you tell them something other than 150, you are lying to them, and that is a fact. Fact are never ridiculous.
If someone asks a question, I will politely and kindly give them an answer. I have done so on many posts and will continue to do so. This method is just as right as the methods you use, and to suggest that your way is the only right way is ridiculous.0 -
It sounds like all you want to do is argue.11
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post deleted. Didn’t mean to post this.1
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allother94 wrote: »I’ve been posting on here for a while and have noticed something that happens in every thread. I will start the thread by asking a simple question like “what is considered an an above average bench press?”. Without fail, the responses will mostly be “it depends on your goals.” No it doesn’t. I have no goals. All I have are questions. Once I have the answers to my questions, then I will make my goals...
I'd ask ... above average for who?3 -
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Mostly because this is a fitness forum and people who answer generally have GOALS. That is why they succeeded. They had a vision, clarity and designed their diet and workouts accordingly. it is pretty rare to get someone who asks a question but has no goals....just questions.
So when a question is asked, by default people refer to the 'what is your goal?' comment because a good answer almost always is tied to it.
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L1zardQueen wrote: »
I was just thinking of that sketch.2 -
I find it odd that someone thinks it is okay to tell a forum of unpaid people who volunteer their time that they are helping people the wrong way.
You do? Well I disagree. And I will spend the next few hours trying to make you feel bad for thinking the way you do with flimsy arguments presented with aggressive tones.3 -
Wetcoaster wrote: »It sounds like all you want to do is argue.
I enjoy a stimulating debate from time to time. I have heard some good points and have tried to acknowledge them. Its not as much fun when the opposing side just disagrees with everything and just tries to painting me out to be a bad person instead of crafting logical counter arguments. But it is still fun.2 -
allother94 wrote: »I’ve been posting on here for a while and have noticed something that happens in every thread. I will start the thread by asking a simple question like “what is considered an an above average bench press?”. Without fail, the responses will mostly be “it depends on your goals.” No it doesn’t. I have no goals. All I have are questions. Once I have the answers to my questions, then I will make my goals...
I'd ask ... above average for who?
This would be a beautiful response. You are asking for details in order to craft a better response. You have not insulted me by implying that I am asking the wrong question. You also seem to understand that you should do your research before setting your goals, so having a goal is not a prerequisite for seeking information.2 -
riffraff2112 wrote: »Mostly because this is a fitness forum and people who answer generally have GOALS. That is why they succeeded. They had a vision, clarity and designed their diet and workouts accordingly. it is pretty rare to get someone who asks a question but has no goals....just questions.
So when a question is asked, by default people refer to the 'what is your goal?' comment because a good answer almost always is tied to it.
I’m guessing at this point people are reading the first few posts and skipping to their reply.
I’m not saying this method of asking for goals is wrong. At this point in the discussion, I’m just saying that it is possible to politely answer questions without knowing goals if the question are general in nature. Geez...1 -
allother94 wrote: »allother94 wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »Also-in my 8 years here, I have yet to see a single question asked on MFP that hasn’t been addressed by Google.
I find that hard to believe. If you want to test this theory, I will posted the last question I asked and would love to see you try to answer it with google only.
I'll play. What's the last question you asked?
Alright. Let the fun begin. I’ve doctored the question a little, but this is a typical question I would ask. For enjoyment sake, let’s just play the game using the below only.
I just finished the c25k program. This means I just completed my first 5k. As you can imagine, my time was pretty bad. If I ran a 5k twice a week, how much would you guess my time would improve in 2 months?
Challenge #1: Find something on google that would answer this specific question
Challenge #2: Explain how your answer would differ if my goal was to become a professional 5k runner vs. just someone who enjoys running 5ks
So if your goal was to become a professional 5K runner, one would assume that despite the late start you had shown some aptitude, and perhaps was a younger age, and more significantly, was doing other things towards that goal, like other running and related training on other days and getting in the best possible running shape (for most, getting both leaner and lighter). You are also focusing on nutrition and sleep, etc.
If you just like running 5Ks, maybe you are just running 5Ks 2x a week for fun.
So yeah, that matters.
I decided to do a half ironman distance tri at age 46, and trained while basically living my life (since my goal was largely to finish and to try not to walk any of the half marathon). That affected my mindset and my goals, and I likely finished at a slower pace than I absolutely could have had I devoted more focus. But I met my goal. (I was just above average for that race for my age group and sex, so won a trophy. I would not have been above average at many other races or compared with the average person who does such races. I would have been above average for the population as a whole, obviously.)
More significantly, as it's more related to your original question, what's an above average speed for a 5K is unanswerable unless we know goals, since that shows who you are comparing yourself with:
Are you a high school runner competing in 5Ks? Are you a Div 1 college championship sprinter just starting to do longer distances? Are you a swimmer trying out running for triathlon purposes? Are you thinking of 5Ks for fun runs? Are you thinking of 5K in professional running? Are you thinking of 5K at the end of a sprint tri? Do you want to trail run or hill run or run a flat fast paved course? Are you, well, just a person and wanting to know if you are above average of the population as a whole? Are you an untrained person wanting to know if you are naturally talented? Are you a fat person wanting to claim you are otherwise fit compared to people who run? Are you wanting to know what's above average for a fit person (since you want to compare yourself to fit people)? Do you want to finish in the top half of your age group at a race (say, male, 30-34), and want to know what's above average for that race. So on, so on, etc.5 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »
I was just thinking of that sketch.
What should I have done. Just let a few people incorrectly tell me I’m 100% wrong and end the thread? I posted a logical thought, There were a couple of logical counter arguments was presented, I responded with another logical counter point, etc.
I get the feeling you think I should have accepted your first counter point as truth and moved on with a greater wealth of knowledge. Unfortunately I am correct in my most recent statement because my statement has evolved as the facts have been presented. You are sticking to your initial thought in it’s full form and the argument continued.
Basically I have admitted I was only partially correct in my understanding and you hold firm that you are 100% correct in your understanding. But which is more likely to be true?1 -
allother94 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »
I was just thinking of that sketch.
What should I have done. Just let a few people incorrectly tell me I’m 100% wrong and end the thread? I posted a logical thought, There were a couple of logical counter arguments was presented, I responded with another logical counter point, etc.
I get the feeling you think I should have accepted your first counter point as truth and moved on with a greater wealth of knowledge. Unfortunately I am correct in my most recent statement because my statement has evolved as the facts have been presented. You are sticking to your initial thought in it’s full form and the argument continued.
Basically I have admitted I was only partially correct in my understanding and you hold firm that you are 100% correct in your understanding. But which is more likely to be true?
You have read far more intent than anything that I've written states. You've invested a lot more energy in being "right" in your opinion and shooting back against any reasonable disagreement to what you keep trying to assert.
If you want to ask hypothetical questions, frame them as such and that you are not relating it your current goal or activities. You'll get a lot more useful (to you) commentary that way.
BTW, if your intent is to debate, there's a lively debate forum that is appropriate for such posts instead of the "Food and Nutrition" forum which has nothing to do with your OP.6 -
allother94 wrote: »allother94 wrote: »Duck_Puddle wrote: »Also-in my 8 years here, I have yet to see a single question asked on MFP that hasn’t been addressed by Google.
I find that hard to believe. If you want to test this theory, I will posted the last question I asked and would love to see you try to answer it with google only.
I'll play. What's the last question you asked?
Alright. Let the fun begin. I’ve doctored the question a little, but this is a typical question I would ask. For enjoyment sake, let’s just play the game using the below only.
I just finished the c25k program. This means I just completed my first 5k. As you can imagine, my time was pretty bad. If I ran a 5k twice a week, how much would you guess my time would improve in 2 months?
Challenge #1: Find something on google that would answer this specific question
Challenge #2: Explain how your answer would differ if my goal was to become a professional 5k runner vs. just someone who enjoys running 5ks
So if your goal was to become a professional 5K runner, one would assume that despite the late start you had shown some aptitude, and perhaps was a younger age, and more significantly, was doing other things towards that goal, like other running and related training on other days and getting in the best possible running shape (for most, getting both leaner and lighter). You are also focusing on nutrition and sleep, etc.
If you would have assumed this you would have been wrong and that would have negativity skewed you answer. My stance is that it would be better to ignore their goal and ask them what assumption they would like you to use or more details around their current fitness. But only if you are inclined to help.
If you just like running 5Ks, maybe you are just running 5Ks 2x a week for fun.
So yeah, that matters.
Running for fun doesn’t mean I don’t have aptitude or that I’m not in shape. Again, your assumption probably would skew your answer.
I decided to do a half ironman distance tri at age 46, and trained while basically living my life (since my goal was largely to finish and to try not to walk any of the half marathon). That affected my mindset and my goals, and I likely finished at a slower pace than I absolutely could have had I devoted more focus. But I met my goal. (I was just above average for that race for my age group and sex, so won a trophy. I would not have been above average at many other races or compared with the average person who does such races. I would have been above average for the population as a whole, obviously.)
More significantly, as it's more related to your original question, what's an above average speed for a 5K is unanswerable unless we know goals, since that shows who you are comparing yourself with:
Are you a high school runner competing in 5Ks? Are you a Div 1 college championship sprinter just starting to do longer distances? Are you a swimmer trying out running for triathlon purposes? Are you thinking of 5Ks for fun runs? Are you thinking of 5K in professional running? Are you thinking of 5K at the end of a sprint tri? Do you want to trail run or hill run or run a flat fast paved course? Are you, well, just a person and wanting to know if you are above average of the population as a whole? Are you an untrained person wanting to know if you are naturally talented? Are you a fat person wanting to claim you are otherwise fit compared to people who run? Are you wanting to know what's above average for a fit person (since you want to compare yourself to fit people)? Do you want to finish in the top half of your age group at a race (say, male, 30-34), and want to know what's above average for that race. So on, so on, etc.
Not sure if you skipped some posts, but my opinion is that asking for more detail on the question is more useful than asking what their goals are. Asking for goals leads to assumptions which leads to the risk of bad advice. Asking for more detail on the question is a far better method. Your last paragraph fits in well with my line of thinking.1 -
There is water on the earth.
Humans need water to live to age 20.
You will breathe oxygen tomorrow unless you die.1 -
allother94 wrote: »L1zardQueen wrote: »
I was just thinking of that sketch.
What should I have done. Just let a few people incorrectly tell me I’m 100% wrong and end the thread? I posted a logical thought, There were a couple of logical counter arguments was presented, I responded with another logical counter point, etc.
I get the feeling you think I should have accepted your first counter point as truth and moved on with a greater wealth of knowledge. Unfortunately I am correct in my most recent statement because my statement has evolved as the facts have been presented. You are sticking to your initial thought in it’s full form and the argument continued.
Basically I have admitted I was only partially correct in my understanding and you hold firm that you are 100% correct in your understanding. But which is more likely to be true?
You have read far more intent that anything I'm what I've written states. You've invested a lot more energy in being "right" in your opinion and shooting back against any reasonable disagreement to what you keep trying to assert.
If you want to hypothetical questions, frame then as such and that you are not relating it your current goal or activities. You'll get a lot more useful (to you) commentary that way.
BTW, if your intent is to debate, there's a lively debate forum that is appropriate for such posts instead of the "Food and Nutrition" forum which has nothing to do with your OP.
Thanks but I wasn’t looking for a debate. I was making an observation in a forum where I noticed it.
I’m only interested in having people accept a fact is a fact. If I was only interested in being right, I wouldn’t have adjusted the fact being stated.allother94 wrote: »
Looks like you said I don’t frame my question sufficiently. I disagreed. Not sure what I read into there.1 -
You are right, I have wasted too much energy on this. I just have a pet peeve trigger when people try to argue their opinion against a fact. Especially when it is implied that I’m an uncaring person for simply stating a fact is a fact.3
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allother94 wrote: »If you worked your behind off so you can bench press 50 lbs, and your goal is 75 pounds because you feel like that's a lot, and then I tell you the average is 150 pounds, then maybe I've just crushed your spirit..
Wait, you would lie to me? What if I wanted to know the truth? Are you saying that all the advice I’ve been giveN so far is just a bunch of lies used to make me feel better? How can you ever know what is real?
I'm sure no one has ever lied to you in your life. And your farts smell like roses.3 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »allother94 wrote: »If you worked your behind off so you can bench press 50 lbs, and your goal is 75 pounds because you feel like that's a lot, and then I tell you the average is 150 pounds, then maybe I've just crushed your spirit..
Wait, you would lie to me? What if I wanted to know the truth? Are you saying that all the advice I’ve been giveN so far is just a bunch of lies used to make me feel better? How can you ever know what is real?
I'm sure no one has ever lied to you in your life. And your farts smell like roses.
Why would you think that? People have lied to me before. What do farts have to do with anything?2 -
allother94 wrote: »lynn_glenmont wrote: »allother94 wrote: »If you worked your behind off so you can bench press 50 lbs, and your goal is 75 pounds because you feel like that's a lot, and then I tell you the average is 150 pounds, then maybe I've just crushed your spirit..
Wait, you would lie to me? What if I wanted to know the truth? Are you saying that all the advice I’ve been giveN so far is just a bunch of lies used to make me feel better? How can you ever know what is real?
I'm sure no one has ever lied to you in your life. And your farts smell like roses.
Why would you think that? People have lied to me before. What do farts have to do with anything?
You seemed so upset at the possibility that someone might have ever couched an answer in kind terms because you see that as a lie, that I just wanted to reassure you that it had never happened to you, so you don't need to be upset. But maybe I misunderstand what you wanted or needed because I don't know what your goals are.9
https://youtu.be/ohDB5gbtaEQ
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