Meatless The Better
Replies
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Hmm.. the evidence supports that dairy is quite good. In fact, it reduces all cause mortality, is protective against most cancers and supports stronger bodies... soo dairy = great.
And then as it relates to meat. Our bodies are designed to eat meat. Meat and availability of amino acids is the reason our brains are developed. So common sense actually would suggest that meat is beneficial given that since our ancestors have been consuming it for thousands of years and hasn't killed us off.
What is bad for us? Ultra-processed foods, obesity and lack of exercise.
ETA: Also take into consideration that our bodies are super adaptive and thrive in a variety of environments. So, it would probably not be good to believe that we would benefit from only one way of eating. My metabolic markers are very good and I eat a very heavy meat and dairy based diet. And given my goals and personal taste, I could never be plant based. But I do love a lot of plant foods (nuts, avocado, a variety of veggies).
That's a pretty big misrepresentation of the dairy study. Even the graphic you shared says so in it "Risk of cancer was similar between dairy consumers and people who excluded it". That a particular subset had a lower mortality risk is statistical noise, not indicative of anything. Significant research has been done lately to show that dairy doesn't raise mortality risk. So limits recommended on dairy as particularly saturated fats from dairy may be outdated. But that means "dairy = not bad". Not that "dairy= great"
As far as plant-based vs. meat based diets, the majority of the research has come out on the side that plant based diets have better overall long term mortality rates than meat heavy diets. Here's an example: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.119.012865.
Now "better long term mortality rates" is not the same thing as "you can't be healthy if you eat meat". You certainly can. But I don't think we should just pretend the research out there doesn't exist just because meat is super tasty.
Ultimately the biggest influence on long term mortality is weight and obesity. So if a meat based diet makes it easier for someone to maintain a healthy weight than a plant based diet, that is healthier for them. Better to be a normal weight meat eater than an obese vegan.
I am a meat eater. Eating meat has helped me keep to my calorie goal. I went pescetarian a few years ago during lent and before I was watching calories and it didn't make me healthier. I was still eating high calorie, non-nutritious foods. So getting my weight under control while eating meat has been good for me. But just because I eat and like meat doesn't mean I don't recognize that all else being equal and if I felt like I could do it, a plant based diet would have certain long term health advantages.
Your own review, points out the biggest issue, even within the different plant based groups. The group who tends to eat a less nutritious diet, tends to also be overweight, less active, drinks more alcohol and tends to smoke more. The other issue that plant based studies have (at least historically) is they study populations that go plant based for health and fitness. So they eat higher quality foods (less processed foods), rarely drink, don't smoke, and exercise.
I would be very difficult to develop even a cohort of diets similar in quality (i.e., high quality meats, nutrient dense carbs and quality fats) with exercise to compare against a plant based diet of similar quality. Overall, i agree the bigger impacts comes from weight loss and exercise.5 -
I had lots of encounters feeding the vegan girls my two sons brought around over 20 years of dating with me making vegan lunches, dinners and snacks for a dozen or more of them. An unheahier looking group you could not assemble from the privileged class these kids came from. I could usually tell a meat eater from her good color, nice skin and hair and reasonable body shape. Where the vegans were a pathetic looking bunch, underweight or overweight, dull hair and skin, etc. And, this was in one of the richest zipcodes in the US. Kids that were in private school at $30,000 per year per kid. I can't imagine what the kids on a tight food budget do with a vegan diet.3
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wilson10102018 wrote: »I had lots of encounters feeding the vegan girls my two sons brought around over 20 years of dating with me making vegan lunches, dinners and snacks for a dozen or more of them. An unheahier looking group you could not assemble from the privileged class these kids came from. I could usually tell a meat eater from her good color, nice skin and hair and reasonable body shape. Where the vegans were a pathetic looking bunch, underweight or overweight, dull hair and skin, etc. And, this was in one of the richest zipcodes in the US. Kids that were in private school at $30,000 per year per kid. I can't imagine what the kids on a tight food budget do with a vegan diet.
In my student days I was vegan because it WAS cheaper to eat beans than meat. That's not true at all. I'm vegan atm for the very same reason. That's your bias
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wilson10102018 wrote: »I had lots of encounters feeding the vegan girls my two sons brought around over 20 years of dating with me making vegan lunches, dinners and snacks for a dozen or more of them. An unheahier looking group you could not assemble from the privileged class these kids came from. I could usually tell a meat eater from her good color, nice skin and hair and reasonable body shape. Where the vegans were a pathetic looking bunch, underweight or overweight, dull hair and skin, etc. And, this was in one of the richest zipcodes in the US. Kids that were in private school at $30,000 per year per kid. I can't imagine what the kids on a tight food budget do with a vegan diet.
What a sweeping generalization you make here. How can you be certain that the ONLY difference between the healthy looking kids and the "unheahier" kids was their diet. Perhaps, it had more to do with their happiness and mental state. How did you determine what a reasonable body shape was...did you check their muscle mass/BMI or just look at them with your Judgy McWilsonPants stink eye?14 -
wilson10102018 wrote: »I had lots of encounters feeding the vegan girls my two sons brought around over 20 years of dating with me making vegan lunches, dinners and snacks for a dozen or more of them. An unheahier looking group you could not assemble from the privileged class these kids came from. I could usually tell a meat eater from her good color, nice skin and hair and reasonable body shape. Where the vegans were a pathetic looking bunch, underweight or overweight, dull hair and skin, etc. And, this was in one of the richest zipcodes in the US. Kids that were in private school at $30,000 per year per kid. I can't imagine what the kids on a tight food budget do with a vegan diet.
What do kids on a tight food budget do for vegan food? The same thing the adults do. They eat budget-friendly foods like rice, beans, oats, potatoes, pasta, frozen fruits and vegetables, and nut butters combined with the fresh produce that is cheap in their area (things like cabbage, peppers, onions, carrots, apples, oranges, and bananas).
I hope you kept your evaluation of these women's bodies low key. I can only imagine how uncomfortable it would be to realize my date's father was evaluating my body shape for "reasonableness."22 -
worldtraveller321 wrote: »What u all think. Going to less meat and more of plant based diet better in every way. Seems most disease comes from meat and dairy?
We can get most of our needed proteins from grains and non meat things. Am i right on this? should we all be avoiding meat?
As well considering the governments want us to all eat meat and dairy.
I think if you don't want to eat meat it leaves more for the rest of us. Thanks much.1 -
It's possible the richer kids had the money to spend on partying more so don't look as healthy. Less sleep, drinking & drugs can do that.3
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Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.3
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wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
If you can't fathom that an adult would make a overtly or indirectly make comments to another adult (or a child) about their body shape and it being unreasonable (or reasonable) then you're very out of touch with the world around you.15 -
wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
You assessed these women's bodies, formed conclusions, and shared those conclusions with us. It's not really that odd to conclude that you might have said something to them or let them know through your gaze and facial expressions (or other actions) that you were evaluating them and found them wanting.
I mean, I would hope we lived in a world where men weren't checking out their sons' dates and sharing their assessments online, but we clearly don't live in that world. Why is a direct comment to them the only thing you think is a bridge too far in this situation?19 -
If you want to refuse to be what nature intended you to be thats your choice, but because you came here to try and shove that nonesense down our throats, you got a disagree from me as well.1
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wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
If you can't fathom that an adult would make a overtly or indirectly make comments to another adult (or a child) about their body shape and it being unreasonable (or reasonable) then you're very out of touch with the world around you.
Actually, I am a polite, kindly person. I would never comment to another person about his or her body shape. And, unlike many of you, ad hominem attacks are not in my play book.
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wilson10102018 wrote: »wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
If you can't fathom that an adult would make a overtly or indirectly make comments to another adult (or a child) about their body shape and it being unreasonable (or reasonable) then you're very out of touch with the world around you.
Actually, I am a polite, kindly person. I would never comment to another person about his or her body shape. And, unlike many of you, ad hominem attacks are not in my play book.
As polite and kindly as you may be, I think you need to take a not even kind of hard look at the world outside of your experience. Not everyone experiences the world the way that you do, in fact, most people don't experience it the way you do. Saying that is far from an ad hominem attack. Would you like an example? Google sexism in the workplace. This is nothing new and if you're unable to understand or admit that, then that says a lot.
Mind you, I would also argue that your comments about your son's dates are far from polite and kind, but other people have already pointed that out.13 -
Most diseases come from genetics and acquired ones from environmental or weight issues.
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I don't have any studies to hand - but being overweight is a huge factor in many diseases - cardiovascular risk( heart disease, strokes) diabetes, arthritis - to name a few obvious ones.
Do you really need studies to confirm that??7 -
paperpudding wrote: »I don't have any studies to hand - but being overweight is a huge factor in many diseases - cardiovascular risk( heart disease, strokes) diabetes, arthritis - to name a few obvious ones.
Do you really need studies to confirm that??
Most and some are two different words. Had ninerbuff said "some" then that wouldn't have been questionable. Never mind that age and taking part in various sports are are both very large contributors to arthritis (by which I'm assuming we're both talking about osteoarthritis). I can think of plenty of diseases and conditions for which weight isn't a large risk factor as well. Type 1 diabetes, scoliosis, various forms of hearing loss...0 -
wilson10102018 wrote: »wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
If you can't fathom that an adult would make a overtly or indirectly make comments to another adult (or a child) about their body shape and it being unreasonable (or reasonable) then you're very out of touch with the world around you.
Actually, I am a polite, kindly person. I would never comment to another person about his or her body shape. And, unlike many of you, ad hominem attacks are not in my play book.
As polite and kindly as you may be, I think you need to take a not even kind of hard look at the world outside of your experience. Not everyone experiences the world the way that you do, in fact, most people don't experience it the way you do. Saying that is far from an ad hominem attack. Would you like an example? Google sexism in the workplace. This is nothing new and if you're unable to understand or admit that, then that says a lot.
Mind you, I would also argue that your comments about your son's dates are far from polite and kind, but other people have already pointed that out.
You just can't help yourself, can you?
I shared my experience without directing my comments to a specific person (unlike you) and in a forum where it is utterly appropriate to share that experience whether you agree with it or not. I suppose there is something about that experience that triggers you in some way and I am sorry for that, but I don't need to shut up because of your issues.
So, feel free to continue to reject my experience as I have shared it, but if you continue personal attacks, I'll complain.2 -
wilson10102018 wrote: »wilson10102018 wrote: »wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
If you can't fathom that an adult would make a overtly or indirectly make comments to another adult (or a child) about their body shape and it being unreasonable (or reasonable) then you're very out of touch with the world around you.
Actually, I am a polite, kindly person. I would never comment to another person about his or her body shape. And, unlike many of you, ad hominem attacks are not in my play book.
As polite and kindly as you may be, I think you need to take a not even kind of hard look at the world outside of your experience. Not everyone experiences the world the way that you do, in fact, most people don't experience it the way you do. Saying that is far from an ad hominem attack. Would you like an example? Google sexism in the workplace. This is nothing new and if you're unable to understand or admit that, then that says a lot.
Mind you, I would also argue that your comments about your son's dates are far from polite and kind, but other people have already pointed that out.
You just can't help yourself, can you?
I shared my experience without directing my comments to a specific person (unlike you) and in a forum where it is utterly appropriate to share that experience whether you agree with it or not. I suppose there is something about that experience that triggers you in some way and I am sorry for that, but I don't need to shut up because of your issues.
So, feel free to continue to reject my experience as I have shared it, but if you continue personal attacks, I'll complain.
It's almost funny because I'm not actually rejecting your experience. I am saying that not everyone experiences the world the way you do though. That you don't experience something does not mean that that something doesn't exist. I also find it dismaying but in some ways not exactly shocking that you don't seem to think that adults don't make overt or indirect comments about whether or not a person has an "reasonable" body shape to their face. It doesn't actually take a lot of time realize that people have been doing that for a very long time and continue to do so today. Do you want a specific example? Air India flight attendants. From the article:
.The airline said that the “normal” BMI for an air hostess is between 18 and 22, “overweight” between 22 and 27, and “obese” for a value above 27. For male attendants the brackets were 18 to 25, 25 to 30, and above. The NHS says a “healthy” BMI is between 18.5 and 24.9.
And no, I'm not triggered by what you've said (as if that would somehow make me less than?). I am, however, willing to stand up and say that I strongly disagree with your idea that it's unfathomable that "an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonablenes" and answer your question as to "where on earth would that happen?". I mean, it would be awesome if it didn't happen, but it does.7 -
Omfg Christmas3
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