Meatless The Better
worldtraveller321
Posts: 150 Member
What u all think. Going to less meat and more of plant based diet better in every way. Seems most disease comes from meat and dairy?
We can get most of our needed proteins from grains and non meat things. Am i right on this? should we all be avoiding meat?
As well considering the governments want us to all eat meat and dairy.
We can get most of our needed proteins from grains and non meat things. Am i right on this? should we all be avoiding meat?
As well considering the governments want us to all eat meat and dairy.
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Replies
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I'm good... I'll continue to eat my meat.28
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It depends on what you eat. Eating a diet high in nutritious plants is generally considered good for long term health. You can eat "plant based" and still eat low nutrition food though. So it is about what you eat, and not simply that it is plant based.
As far as "diseases", I am not sure what you mean. If you are talking about food based illnesses, then actually most of them come from fruits and vegetables, not meat or dairy. If you are talking about long term illness risk, there is some correlation, but not definitive causation, between red meat intake and long term colon cancer risk.
One benefit to a plant based diet is that it is better and more sustainable for the environment. Meat takes a lot more energy and resources to produce than plant based foods do, and is a big driver of climate change.
But in terms of health, it's not conclusively established that going plant based is better for you, as long as you get ample fruits and vegetables in a diet that's till contains meat and dairy.10 -
worldtraveller321 wrote: »Seems most disease comes from meat and dairy?
That got a disagree from me. Where did you get that Idea from?14 -
I believe in eating a little of everything--spread the risk. Fruits and vegetables can have problems too--remember the romaine lettuce recall last year?2
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no..meat eater for life.5
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Before I comment on your post, let me mention that I've been vegetarian for 45+ years . . . yes, since 1974.
No, most disease does not come from meat and dairy. The so-called "documentaries" and blogs that say that are inaccurate: They have an agenda, and are trying to manipulate you.worldtraveller321 wrote: »What u all think. Going to less meat and more of plant based diet better in every way. Seems most disease comes from meat and dairy?
Plant foods are good for us, and the average person eats way too few of them for the best nutrition and health results. Most people would benefit if they increased veggie & fruit intake. To keep calories at a healthy level, some might need to reduce the amount of meat and dairy they eat, if the current amount is excessive for nutritional needs. But meat and dairy can be very useful components of a healthy diet.
We can, but some nutrients, such as vitamin B12, will need to be supplemented. That sooner is a strong hint that humans didn't evolve to thrive best on all and only plants.
We can get most of our needed proteins from grains and non meat things. Am i right on this?
No, not necessarily.
should we all be avoiding meat?
Personally, I think all of us well-off (in global terms) first-world-ers are unavoidably little moving bundles of global harm: Environmental damage, human exploitation, animal exploitation, more. Nice people do things to mitigate that harm, and it makes sense to start with the things that are easiest for us as individuals. There's no way to completely fix all the harm done on our behalf, sadly.
Meat and dairy are nutritionally useful. Fully plant based eating makes it very slightly more difficult to get all necessary nutrients, though it's entirely possible to do so.
Further, plant-based eating is slightly more complicated socially. For example, you might need to navigate a dinner invitation to your meat-loving new boss's house: Do-able (I've done the like), but awkward.
It can even limit your choices of life partner: I've met nice people's who don't want to date someone who doesn't eat meat. (It may sound bad, but one, for example, was a meat-lover who likes to express caring via cooking, and to him, meat is a valued gift).
There are also issues with travel in very meat-centric areas.
None of these are insurmountable, of course. Just minor bumps in the road.As well considering the governments want us to all eat meat and dairy.
They also want us eating plenty of fruits and veggies and grains. I think the UK government's recommendation may even have gone up to 10 fruit/veggie servings daily . . . pretty sure it was under consideration.
It's true, though: It's all part of a government conspiracy . . . a conspiracy to make us healthier.
Both fully plant-based and omnivorous (meat containing) diets can be healthy or unhealthy. There are vegan junk foods, and healthy meats.
Wherever you're currently getting your information: Consider finding more accurate, balanced sources.26 -
Hmm.. the evidence supports that dairy is quite good. In fact, it reduces all cause mortality, is protective against most cancers and supports stronger bodies... soo dairy = great.
And then as it relates to meat. Our bodies are designed to eat meat. Meat and availability of amino acids is the reason our brains are developed. So common sense actually would suggest that meat is beneficial given that since our ancestors have been consuming it for thousands of years and hasn't killed us off.
What is bad for us? Ultra-processed foods, obesity and lack of exercise.
ETA: Also take into consideration that our bodies are super adaptive and thrive in a variety of environments. So, it would probably not be good to believe that we would benefit from only one way of eating. My metabolic markers are very good and I eat a very heavy meat and dairy based diet. And given my goals and personal taste, I could never be plant based. But I do love a lot of plant foods (nuts, avocado, a variety of veggies).13 -
OP, you can go meatless if it works for you.
I'm fine with meat and dairy. Neither are the causes of the diseases I have.9 -
.... some nutrients, such as vitamin B12, will need to be supplemented. That sooner is a strong hint that humans didn't evolve to thrive best on all and only plants.
Fortunately B12 supplementation today is cheap and easy insurance.
But I doubt that earlier human populations had problems with B12 deficiency even if eating solely plant-based, because B12 is produced by soil bacteria. Historically, our problems with B12 seemed to have surfaced as our food supply (and the food supply of animals bred for food) became "cleaner". If we ate more dirt, probably not a problem!
Even studies of vegans turn up a sizable fraction who are not deficient, so there are various dietary and individual factors involved. Some people are better st extracting nutrients from their food than others and also the need for a particular nutrient can vary from person to person.One study I saw was of an urban populations, results may be different if they look at farmers and gardeners.
Today, though, carnivores should consider B12 supplementation also. They are not immune, because the animals they eat may be depleted in B12 also. The only person I know who had B12 deficiency (treated at the time with regular injections) got most of her protein from meat. She actually owned a diner. She was under a lot of stress, which also may deplete B vitamins in general and so may have contributed to her condition.
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Personally I have landed on a current plan of less meat, less often, but better quality when I do have it.
I like to eat plant based foods, it seems to suit me, with a genetic heritage from English peasants it's the kind of pattern they would have had. A lot of fruit and veg also helps manage a tendency to high blood pressure which has been a problem in the past (can't remember why now, learned this years ago from British blood pressure association website when I first started having problems.)
So, it's worth you trying to see how you go, you might find it suits.
Always very wary of saying that all people must do one particular thing though. One size does not fit all.2 -
littlegreenparrot1 wrote: »Personally I have landed on a current plan of less meat, less often, but better quality when I do have it.
I like to eat plant based foods, it seems to suit me, with a genetic heritage from English peasants it's the kind of pattern they would have had.
Do you limit yourself to the sort of fruits and nuts that might be gleaned from hedge rows, root vegetables, grains, and beer that likely made up the bulk of the diet of your English peasant ancestors?
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Poss a preventative towards colon cancer as veg protein has more fibre? Random thought1
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lynn_glenmont wrote: »littlegreenparrot1 wrote: »Personally I have landed on a current plan of less meat, less often, but better quality when I do have it.
I like to eat plant based foods, it seems to suit me, with a genetic heritage from English peasants it's the kind of pattern they would have had.
Do you limit yourself to the sort of fruits and nuts that might be gleaned from hedge rows, root vegetables, grains, and beer that likely made up the bulk of the diet of your English peasant ancestors?
No, but am sure they would have enjoyed a banana if they could have got hold of one. I said kind of, not exactly.
They would not have had access to much meat.
I'm just trying to explain how something that suits me, may not suit others.3 -
I personally eat a pescatarian diet but I believe that you should eat whatever works to keep you in good health in body and spirit and also keeps you in a calorie deficit (if your journey is losing weight).0
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Poss a preventative towards colon cancer as veg protein has more fibre? Random thought
The association is only against processed meats and it's a whopping 1-1.5% increase in absolute risk. And what's even more interested, its because those diets tend to be low in fiber. So if you consume fiber and consume processed meats, your risk would be negligible. On non processed meats, there is no increase in colorectal cancer.9 -
Hmm.. the evidence supports that dairy is quite good. In fact, it reduces all cause mortality, is protective against most cancers and supports stronger bodies... soo dairy = great.
And then as it relates to meat. Our bodies are designed to eat meat. Meat and availability of amino acids is the reason our brains are developed. So common sense actually would suggest that meat is beneficial given that since our ancestors have been consuming it for thousands of years and hasn't killed us off.
What is bad for us? Ultra-processed foods, obesity and lack of exercise.
ETA: Also take into consideration that our bodies are super adaptive and thrive in a variety of environments. So, it would probably not be good to believe that we would benefit from only one way of eating. My metabolic markers are very good and I eat a very heavy meat and dairy based diet. And given my goals and personal taste, I could never be plant based. But I do love a lot of plant foods (nuts, avocado, a variety of veggies).
That's a pretty big misrepresentation of the dairy study. Even the graphic you shared says so in it "Risk of cancer was similar between dairy consumers and people who excluded it". That a particular subset had a lower mortality risk is statistical noise, not indicative of anything. Significant research has been done lately to show that dairy doesn't raise mortality risk. So limits recommended on dairy as particularly saturated fats from dairy may be outdated. But that means "dairy = not bad". Not that "dairy= great"
As far as plant-based vs. meat based diets, the majority of the research has come out on the side that plant based diets have better overall long term mortality rates than meat heavy diets. Here's an example: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.119.012865.
Now "better long term mortality rates" is not the same thing as "you can't be healthy if you eat meat". You certainly can. But I don't think we should just pretend the research out there doesn't exist just because meat is super tasty.
Ultimately the biggest influence on long term mortality is weight and obesity. So if a meat based diet makes it easier for someone to maintain a healthy weight than a plant based diet, that is healthier for them. Better to be a normal weight meat eater than an obese vegan.
I am a meat eater. Eating meat has helped me keep to my calorie goal. I went pescetarian a few years ago during lent and before I was watching calories and it didn't make me healthier. I was still eating high calorie, non-nutritious foods. So getting my weight under control while eating meat has been good for me. But just because I eat and like meat doesn't mean I don't recognize that all else being equal and if I felt like I could do it, a plant based diet would have certain long term health advantages.
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Poss a preventative towards colon cancer as veg protein has more fibre? Random thought
The association is only against processed meats and it's a whopping 1-1.5% increase in absolute risk. And what's even more interested, its because those diets tend to be low in fiber. So if you consume fiber and consume processed meats, your risk would be negligible. On non processed meats, there is no increase in colorectal cancer.
I would like to read about this as meat really gives me a problem and sometimes have to manually evacuate (sorry, gross I know) but I'm ok to have it occasionally - do you have a good linkie pls? I would like to know more 0 -
Oh the joys of of divisive threads.
I eat meat, and seafood, and produce, and small amounts of dairy. Some weeks I eat little to no meat, other times I eat more meat. I have various other dietary habits that I would assume next to no one here would care about as well. I don't eat the way I do because I think that it's healthier, rather because I like a variety of foods and because I really don't enjoy the vast majority of dairy products (my stomach also isn't a fan).
I also prefer eating seasonally and try to eat locally for the most part. That said, I'm not about to call someone out every time I read a post about eating fresh strawberries in November despite that person living in a place where berries clearly aren't growing in November.6 -
lynn_glenmont wrote: »littlegreenparrot1 wrote: »Personally I have landed on a current plan of less meat, less often, but better quality when I do have it.
I like to eat plant based foods, it seems to suit me, with a genetic heritage from English peasants it's the kind of pattern they would have had.
Do you limit yourself to the sort of fruits and nuts that might be gleaned from hedge rows, root vegetables, grains, and beer that likely made up the bulk of the diet of your English peasant ancestors?
Slightly related to topic trivia.
When the skeleton later proven to be that of King Richard 3rd was first undergoing tests, one of the early investigations showed it was not that of a peasant - because the bone density reflected higher meat and calcium intake than peasants of the day.
Yes I know that has zero relevance to what our diet should be today, but fascinating nevertheless.
To me, anyway
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I feel like the big deal is that a lot of meat-focused eaters don't eat nearly as many veggies and fruits as reasonable evidence suggests is optimal. (Yes, some do; and all could. And some "plant based" eaters don't get enough, either, amazingly.)
So, the issue is more that many people would do better if they simply ate more actual vegetables and fruits (and probably grains as well). If that means eating a bit less meat to make calorie room for the veggies/fruits (which are usually not calorie dense, BTW), and they can do so and still get enough protein, that should (IMO) provide most of the benefit.
I feel like this topic gets really polarized between "plant based" and "meat eating" when - face it - even the very conservative mainstream authorities are recommending a 5 to even 10 serving minimum of veggies/fruits daily for everyone, and the majority of people (no matter their eating style) aren't getting that much.
If you are getting in those veggie/fruit servings - whether you eat meat or tofu/tempeh/seitan/whatever-plant-protein alongside - yay, you! You're probably doing fine.
It's more that plant foods are really good for you, and less that meat/dairy/fish (as a generality) is bad for you.
Just my (vegetarian) opinion, though.11 -
Hmm.. the evidence supports that dairy is quite good. In fact, it reduces all cause mortality, is protective against most cancers and supports stronger bodies... soo dairy = great.
And then as it relates to meat. Our bodies are designed to eat meat. Meat and availability of amino acids is the reason our brains are developed. So common sense actually would suggest that meat is beneficial given that since our ancestors have been consuming it for thousands of years and hasn't killed us off.
What is bad for us? Ultra-processed foods, obesity and lack of exercise.
ETA: Also take into consideration that our bodies are super adaptive and thrive in a variety of environments. So, it would probably not be good to believe that we would benefit from only one way of eating. My metabolic markers are very good and I eat a very heavy meat and dairy based diet. And given my goals and personal taste, I could never be plant based. But I do love a lot of plant foods (nuts, avocado, a variety of veggies).
That's a pretty big misrepresentation of the dairy study. Even the graphic you shared says so in it "Risk of cancer was similar between dairy consumers and people who excluded it". That a particular subset had a lower mortality risk is statistical noise, not indicative of anything. Significant research has been done lately to show that dairy doesn't raise mortality risk. So limits recommended on dairy as particularly saturated fats from dairy may be outdated. But that means "dairy = not bad". Not that "dairy= great"
As far as plant-based vs. meat based diets, the majority of the research has come out on the side that plant based diets have better overall long term mortality rates than meat heavy diets. Here's an example: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.119.012865.
Now "better long term mortality rates" is not the same thing as "you can't be healthy if you eat meat". You certainly can. But I don't think we should just pretend the research out there doesn't exist just because meat is super tasty.
Ultimately the biggest influence on long term mortality is weight and obesity. So if a meat based diet makes it easier for someone to maintain a healthy weight than a plant based diet, that is healthier for them. Better to be a normal weight meat eater than an obese vegan.
I am a meat eater. Eating meat has helped me keep to my calorie goal. I went pescetarian a few years ago during lent and before I was watching calories and it didn't make me healthier. I was still eating high calorie, non-nutritious foods. So getting my weight under control while eating meat has been good for me. But just because I eat and like meat doesn't mean I don't recognize that all else being equal and if I felt like I could do it, a plant based diet would have certain long term health advantages.
Your own review, points out the biggest issue, even within the different plant based groups. The group who tends to eat a less nutritious diet, tends to also be overweight, less active, drinks more alcohol and tends to smoke more. The other issue that plant based studies have (at least historically) is they study populations that go plant based for health and fitness. So they eat higher quality foods (less processed foods), rarely drink, don't smoke, and exercise.
I would be very difficult to develop even a cohort of diets similar in quality (i.e., high quality meats, nutrient dense carbs and quality fats) with exercise to compare against a plant based diet of similar quality. Overall, i agree the bigger impacts comes from weight loss and exercise.5 -
I had lots of encounters feeding the vegan girls my two sons brought around over 20 years of dating with me making vegan lunches, dinners and snacks for a dozen or more of them. An unheahier looking group you could not assemble from the privileged class these kids came from. I could usually tell a meat eater from her good color, nice skin and hair and reasonable body shape. Where the vegans were a pathetic looking bunch, underweight or overweight, dull hair and skin, etc. And, this was in one of the richest zipcodes in the US. Kids that were in private school at $30,000 per year per kid. I can't imagine what the kids on a tight food budget do with a vegan diet.3
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wilson10102018 wrote: »I had lots of encounters feeding the vegan girls my two sons brought around over 20 years of dating with me making vegan lunches, dinners and snacks for a dozen or more of them. An unheahier looking group you could not assemble from the privileged class these kids came from. I could usually tell a meat eater from her good color, nice skin and hair and reasonable body shape. Where the vegans were a pathetic looking bunch, underweight or overweight, dull hair and skin, etc. And, this was in one of the richest zipcodes in the US. Kids that were in private school at $30,000 per year per kid. I can't imagine what the kids on a tight food budget do with a vegan diet.
In my student days I was vegan because it WAS cheaper to eat beans than meat. That's not true at all. I'm vegan atm for the very same reason. That's your bias
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wilson10102018 wrote: »I had lots of encounters feeding the vegan girls my two sons brought around over 20 years of dating with me making vegan lunches, dinners and snacks for a dozen or more of them. An unheahier looking group you could not assemble from the privileged class these kids came from. I could usually tell a meat eater from her good color, nice skin and hair and reasonable body shape. Where the vegans were a pathetic looking bunch, underweight or overweight, dull hair and skin, etc. And, this was in one of the richest zipcodes in the US. Kids that were in private school at $30,000 per year per kid. I can't imagine what the kids on a tight food budget do with a vegan diet.
What a sweeping generalization you make here. How can you be certain that the ONLY difference between the healthy looking kids and the "unheahier" kids was their diet. Perhaps, it had more to do with their happiness and mental state. How did you determine what a reasonable body shape was...did you check their muscle mass/BMI or just look at them with your Judgy McWilsonPants stink eye?14 -
wilson10102018 wrote: »I had lots of encounters feeding the vegan girls my two sons brought around over 20 years of dating with me making vegan lunches, dinners and snacks for a dozen or more of them. An unheahier looking group you could not assemble from the privileged class these kids came from. I could usually tell a meat eater from her good color, nice skin and hair and reasonable body shape. Where the vegans were a pathetic looking bunch, underweight or overweight, dull hair and skin, etc. And, this was in one of the richest zipcodes in the US. Kids that were in private school at $30,000 per year per kid. I can't imagine what the kids on a tight food budget do with a vegan diet.
What do kids on a tight food budget do for vegan food? The same thing the adults do. They eat budget-friendly foods like rice, beans, oats, potatoes, pasta, frozen fruits and vegetables, and nut butters combined with the fresh produce that is cheap in their area (things like cabbage, peppers, onions, carrots, apples, oranges, and bananas).
I hope you kept your evaluation of these women's bodies low key. I can only imagine how uncomfortable it would be to realize my date's father was evaluating my body shape for "reasonableness."22 -
worldtraveller321 wrote: »What u all think. Going to less meat and more of plant based diet better in every way. Seems most disease comes from meat and dairy?
We can get most of our needed proteins from grains and non meat things. Am i right on this? should we all be avoiding meat?
As well considering the governments want us to all eat meat and dairy.
I think if you don't want to eat meat it leaves more for the rest of us. Thanks much.1 -
It's possible the richer kids had the money to spend on partying more so don't look as healthy. Less sleep, drinking & drugs can do that.3
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Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.3
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wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
If you can't fathom that an adult would make a overtly or indirectly make comments to another adult (or a child) about their body shape and it being unreasonable (or reasonable) then you're very out of touch with the world around you.15 -
wilson10102018 wrote: »Other than getting flamed for saying my experiences, I am happy to have a lot of successful vegans weigh in, as it were. I do think that persons who assume that an adult would comment to a woman on their body shape reasonableness is pretty perverted. Where on earth would that happen? I can't imagine who would even suggest such a thing.
You assessed these women's bodies, formed conclusions, and shared those conclusions with us. It's not really that odd to conclude that you might have said something to them or let them know through your gaze and facial expressions (or other actions) that you were evaluating them and found them wanting.
I mean, I would hope we lived in a world where men weren't checking out their sons' dates and sharing their assessments online, but we clearly don't live in that world. Why is a direct comment to them the only thing you think is a bridge too far in this situation?19
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