Do YOU personally eat back your workout calories?
Replies
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breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I really think it depends on the person. I do sometimes and I don't sometimes.
MFP forum veterans are sticklers for weighing and measuring every morsel of food. So much so that if a person isn't losing weight and asks for advice, everyone jumps on them to open their diary so that they can prove that that person is not logging accurately and therefore eating too many calories.
What is funny to me is that those same people will go crazy over people saying that they are not eating exercise calories back or if someone is eating at 1200 calories. If you have already established that most people are eating more-- enough to where they aren't losing weight, then why does it matter if they choose not to eat calories back and create a small deficit there instead?
The reality is that many people won't be exact in logging. And they probably ARE eating more than they think... which means they probably won't see the results they want if they eat back all of their calories.
If you are really great at measuring and tracking, then you can probably eat them back and be fine. If you aren't so great at it, don't want the hassle, and find that you aren't seeing the results you want, don't eat them back and see if that helps.
If someone isn't losing weight when they're supposedly in a calorie deficit, the general most obvious answer is that they're accidentally eating more than they think you are. We're less "jumping" on people than offering help to people who are frustrated and asking for advice. What do you suggest - that we ignore what repeatedly been demonstrated to be the most likely cause of their frustration?
I have not seen a post where someone has gone "crazy" because someone isn't eating back their exercise calories. I'll defer to your experience here since you're claiming to see the same people do this repeatedly. I do see people recommending it to people who have very low calorie goals or are suffering from extreme hunger or lack of energy. Again, these are people asking for advice. If someone is eating much less than they need and asking for advice to deal with the consequences, I don't know what you would have people recommend other than "hey, you can eat back some of calories you're leaving on the table!"
I have been a myfitnesspal forum lurker for like 10 years (I've had some other accounts besides the one I have now.) What I have often seen is cut and dry, matter of fact, often condescending answers to people who oppose people with more than 1,000 comments next to their name. This isn't EVERY person-- I have seen many really kind and helpful people too.
But it almost never fails that people who ask "what am I doing wrong?" or "should i eat more than 1200 calories" or "I'm eating really clean"... will be met with some snark and a heavy does of "measure, measure, measure". I get that people are asking for this advice... but if someone is giving advice that isn't "measure" or "eat back your calories" then those responses are dismissed right away.
Personally, I have never been able to be as perfect as what the forums have recommended to me. After years of calculating TDEE, rearranging macros, and weighing every single thing, attempting heavy lifting, I've actually never been successful at doing those things. What's more is that I became so obsessed with numbers and control that I developed a full blown eating disorder (that thankfully, I no longer struggle with). I was actually more successful at weight loss and overall health, before I joined MFP and started obsessing over the numbers.
I wish someone would have told me 10 years ago that I didn't have to do all that to lose weight.
You can tell if you are in a deficit if you are losing weight over time. If you aren't, then look at how much you are eating and your patterns. If measuring isn't your thing, then make conscious decisions to eat less and observe the results. Losing too much? Eat more.
If someone isn't losing weight, do you think the advice to make sure they're being reasonably accurate with estimating their intake is BAD or misguided? What would you recommend to someone who thinks they've been in a deficit for six weeks and hasn't lost any weight, especially if they're using less accurate methods of estimating how many calories they're eating?
I've never seen anybody here say that it is required to know one's TDEE or to weigh everything to lose weight. People can lose weight in a calorie deficit without even knowing what a calorie is. But if someone is having trouble creating that deficit, I'm really confused as to why specific advice to help them get there is inappropriate, especially given that this is a website specifically dedicated to counting calories. We're not going to be recommending rebalancing chakras.
There have been multiple threads over the years where people have said they either can't or won't count calories for reasons of mental health or anxiety prevention. I have never seen this result in someone saying they CAN'T lose weight, it's just that their path may be less direct than someone who is actually counting calories with reasonable accuracy.
I believe it is mathematically correct advice. But literally every thread does not have to be "weigh and measure" and eat calories back. I can click on just about any given thread that will repeat this over and over for advice. There's more going on than people not knowing how buy a food scale.
And so when others give advice that isn't a repeat of this mantra, then they get all these disagrees and comments. This thread for example.... If a person says "heck no I don't eat calories back.... that just undoes my progress." Well...maybe for them it really does. And maybe the OP isn't a diligent tracker and would benefit from not eating calories back.
It's not that I think it is bad advice. But I do think it is the only allowed advice without feathers being ruffled and 10 people coming in to negate any advice because it doesn't fit with the weighing and measuring mantra. It's not so much maybe that people give this advice, but that they also have to debate everyone who comes up with a different response.
I know that many MFPers have been really successfully with this approach. But I've also seen a ton who have been here for years, preaching this approach and haven't been able to follow their own advice (me being one of them) and actually be successful at weight loss. We know the math... so what's wrong? Why is fad diet Kathy losing weight and keeping it off, while I sit here with my superior math and science and can't seem to stick to it? Sometimes, it's not just that.
We see it over and over because there are lots of threads with the same questions. Even if someone is the 1,000th person to ask a similar question, they should get the most relevant advice for their situation (even if it has been given to others previously).
If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it undoes my progress," that's an opportunity for them to understand how MFP actually works. If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it creates a buffer for my logging," that's a different story.
As far as advice not being allowed, it's absolutely allowed to recommend that people don't eat their calories back. People may disagree with you (and people may disagree with me), but the point of view can be expressed.
Your experience has shown you that successful weight management IS more than just knowing the math. The math has to be applied and that is where things can get logistically or psychologically challenging. That doesn't mean the math is invalid, it means that we all have different challenges when it comes to actually applying it to our complicated lives. It has nothing to do with an understanding of math and science. There are literal geniuses who can't manage their weight, just as there are geniuses who are addicted to various substances or can't get their romantic lives in order or have dirty homes. We're an odd species that way.
But while there is a valid and necessary and legitimate place to talk about the psychological or behavioral challenges we face in applying the principles of CICO to manage our weight, that doesn't undercut the underlying truth of how our bodies function. For me personally, I think there is a great value in people understanding exactly how it works so they can figure out how to tailor it to the circumstances of their lives and their emotional needs.
But again, the information is contradicted when you say "let me educate you on how MFP works"....then "but MFP inflates calorie burns"... you are essentially saying, "Trust MFP's set up... except for when we say otherwise." I also did not receive a lesson in weighing food when I signed up-- I had to come to the forums for that.
I do understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent. I would definitely say that if someone is not losing weight, they are not in a calorie deficit. And I do think that it is important to point that out and try to figure out where something is off.
But in saying that, I don't think it has to be strictly "weigh your foods." I think that MFP forums have a cultish vibe where if someone says something like "I think breakfast is really important" or "I eat 1200 calories a day" or "I skip the sugar and eat fruit instead" then there are knee-jerk responses opposing those views, when that actually could be help people who are not in a deficit get into a deficit without breaking out a scale.
What people are actually saying is that the method is entirely sensible.
That the exercise database here may not be the best way for many people to estimate their calorie expenditure does not negate in anyway that people's bodies are burning calories during exercise and if you are counting calories turning a blind eye doesn't make a lot of sense. It's just one of the energy needs of our bodies.
if you are talking of "cultish vibes" then the cult of selecting the fastest rate of loss (even when inappropriate), selecting the lowest activity level (even when not accurate) and then viewing exercise as solely for weight loss is a far more harmful "cult" than people trying to support healthy rates of weight loss and building healthy habits for life such as exercise being for health, fitness and even enjoyment.
Although exercise isn't required for successful weight loss there's a big correlation between successfully maintaining at goal weight and the habit of regular exercise.
That is fine, but don't use "This is how MFP was intended to be used" as a trump card to prop up your opinion in the "eat back your calories" debate. It is reasonable to assume that there are good parts and not so good parts about MFP and that some will do better with it than others.
And wait...let say they are selecting the lowest activity and fastest rate of loss and therefore getting smaller calorie counts. Isn't it more likely that unless they are weighing and measuring, they are eating much more than they believe they are?
Unless people are losing weight at an alarming rate; it isn't unhealthy. Most come to ask for advice because they aren't losing, which means that even though they put in their stats incorrectly and set their calories low, they are eating more than what they need to lose weight. They aren't in danger-- they are just frustrated because they don't realize how much they are eating or where to cut.
In this thread, for this type of person, I'd say yeah... maybe try not eating your calories back and see what happens. Or maybe if you are feeling really hungry add some more filling foods. I don't have to put my entire worldview on them and try to get them to rework all they are doing for them to lose weight.
Also I did not make any arguments for exercise solely being for weight loss. I think it is good for both overall health and weight loss.1 -
breefoshee wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I really think it depends on the person. I do sometimes and I don't sometimes.
MFP forum veterans are sticklers for weighing and measuring every morsel of food. So much so that if a person isn't losing weight and asks for advice, everyone jumps on them to open their diary so that they can prove that that person is not logging accurately and therefore eating too many calories.
What is funny to me is that those same people will go crazy over people saying that they are not eating exercise calories back or if someone is eating at 1200 calories. If you have already established that most people are eating more-- enough to where they aren't losing weight, then why does it matter if they choose not to eat calories back and create a small deficit there instead?
The reality is that many people won't be exact in logging. And they probably ARE eating more than they think... which means they probably won't see the results they want if they eat back all of their calories.
If you are really great at measuring and tracking, then you can probably eat them back and be fine. If you aren't so great at it, don't want the hassle, and find that you aren't seeing the results you want, don't eat them back and see if that helps.
If someone isn't losing weight when they're supposedly in a calorie deficit, the general most obvious answer is that they're accidentally eating more than they think you are. We're less "jumping" on people than offering help to people who are frustrated and asking for advice. What do you suggest - that we ignore what repeatedly been demonstrated to be the most likely cause of their frustration?
I have not seen a post where someone has gone "crazy" because someone isn't eating back their exercise calories. I'll defer to your experience here since you're claiming to see the same people do this repeatedly. I do see people recommending it to people who have very low calorie goals or are suffering from extreme hunger or lack of energy. Again, these are people asking for advice. If someone is eating much less than they need and asking for advice to deal with the consequences, I don't know what you would have people recommend other than "hey, you can eat back some of calories you're leaving on the table!"
I have been a myfitnesspal forum lurker for like 10 years (I've had some other accounts besides the one I have now.) What I have often seen is cut and dry, matter of fact, often condescending answers to people who oppose people with more than 1,000 comments next to their name. This isn't EVERY person-- I have seen many really kind and helpful people too.
But it almost never fails that people who ask "what am I doing wrong?" or "should i eat more than 1200 calories" or "I'm eating really clean"... will be met with some snark and a heavy does of "measure, measure, measure". I get that people are asking for this advice... but if someone is giving advice that isn't "measure" or "eat back your calories" then those responses are dismissed right away.
Personally, I have never been able to be as perfect as what the forums have recommended to me. After years of calculating TDEE, rearranging macros, and weighing every single thing, attempting heavy lifting, I've actually never been successful at doing those things. What's more is that I became so obsessed with numbers and control that I developed a full blown eating disorder (that thankfully, I no longer struggle with). I was actually more successful at weight loss and overall health, before I joined MFP and started obsessing over the numbers.
I wish someone would have told me 10 years ago that I didn't have to do all that to lose weight.
You can tell if you are in a deficit if you are losing weight over time. If you aren't, then look at how much you are eating and your patterns. If measuring isn't your thing, then make conscious decisions to eat less and observe the results. Losing too much? Eat more.
If someone isn't losing weight, do you think the advice to make sure they're being reasonably accurate with estimating their intake is BAD or misguided? What would you recommend to someone who thinks they've been in a deficit for six weeks and hasn't lost any weight, especially if they're using less accurate methods of estimating how many calories they're eating?
I've never seen anybody here say that it is required to know one's TDEE or to weigh everything to lose weight. People can lose weight in a calorie deficit without even knowing what a calorie is. But if someone is having trouble creating that deficit, I'm really confused as to why specific advice to help them get there is inappropriate, especially given that this is a website specifically dedicated to counting calories. We're not going to be recommending rebalancing chakras.
There have been multiple threads over the years where people have said they either can't or won't count calories for reasons of mental health or anxiety prevention. I have never seen this result in someone saying they CAN'T lose weight, it's just that their path may be less direct than someone who is actually counting calories with reasonable accuracy.
I believe it is mathematically correct advice. But literally every thread does not have to be "weigh and measure" and eat calories back. I can click on just about any given thread that will repeat this over and over for advice. There's more going on than people not knowing how buy a food scale.
And so when others give advice that isn't a repeat of this mantra, then they get all these disagrees and comments. This thread for example.... If a person says "heck no I don't eat calories back.... that just undoes my progress." Well...maybe for them it really does. And maybe the OP isn't a diligent tracker and would benefit from not eating calories back.
It's not that I think it is bad advice. But I do think it is the only allowed advice without feathers being ruffled and 10 people coming in to negate any advice because it doesn't fit with the weighing and measuring mantra. It's not so much maybe that people give this advice, but that they also have to debate everyone who comes up with a different response.
I know that many MFPers have been really successfully with this approach. But I've also seen a ton who have been here for years, preaching this approach and haven't been able to follow their own advice (me being one of them) and actually be successful at weight loss. We know the math... so what's wrong? Why is fad diet Kathy losing weight and keeping it off, while I sit here with my superior math and science and can't seem to stick to it? Sometimes, it's not just that.
We see it over and over because there are lots of threads with the same questions. Even if someone is the 1,000th person to ask a similar question, they should get the most relevant advice for their situation (even if it has been given to others previously).
If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it undoes my progress," that's an opportunity for them to understand how MFP actually works. If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it creates a buffer for my logging," that's a different story.
As far as advice not being allowed, it's absolutely allowed to recommend that people don't eat their calories back. People may disagree with you (and people may disagree with me), but the point of view can be expressed.
Your experience has shown you that successful weight management IS more than just knowing the math. The math has to be applied and that is where things can get logistically or psychologically challenging. That doesn't mean the math is invalid, it means that we all have different challenges when it comes to actually applying it to our complicated lives. It has nothing to do with an understanding of math and science. There are literal geniuses who can't manage their weight, just as there are geniuses who are addicted to various substances or can't get their romantic lives in order or have dirty homes. We're an odd species that way.
But while there is a valid and necessary and legitimate place to talk about the psychological or behavioral challenges we face in applying the principles of CICO to manage our weight, that doesn't undercut the underlying truth of how our bodies function. For me personally, I think there is a great value in people understanding exactly how it works so they can figure out how to tailor it to the circumstances of their lives and their emotional needs.
But again, the information is contradicted when you say "let me educate you on how MFP works"....then "but MFP inflates calorie burns"... you are essentially saying, "Trust MFP's set up... except for when we say otherwise." I also did not receive a lesson in weighing food when I signed up-- I had to come to the forums for that.
I do understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent. I would definitely say that if someone is not losing weight, they are not in a calorie deficit. And I do think that it is important to point that out and try to figure out where something is off.
But in saying that, I don't think it has to be strictly "weigh your foods." I think that MFP forums have a cultish vibe where if someone says something like "I think breakfast is really important" or "I eat 1200 calories a day" or "I skip the sugar and eat fruit instead" then there are knee-jerk responses opposing those views, when that actually could be help people who are not in a deficit get into a deficit without breaking out a scale.
What people are actually saying is that the method is entirely sensible.
That the exercise database here may not be the best way for many people to estimate their calorie expenditure does not negate in anyway that people's bodies are burning calories during exercise and if you are counting calories turning a blind eye doesn't make a lot of sense. It's just one of the energy needs of our bodies.
if you are talking of "cultish vibes" then the cult of selecting the fastest rate of loss (even when inappropriate), selecting the lowest activity level (even when not accurate) and then viewing exercise as solely for weight loss is a far more harmful "cult" than people trying to support healthy rates of weight loss and building healthy habits for life such as exercise being for health, fitness and even enjoyment.
Although exercise isn't required for successful weight loss there's a big correlation between successfully maintaining at goal weight and the habit of regular exercise.
That is fine, but don't use "This is how MFP was intended to be used" as a trump card to prop up your opinion in the "eat back your calories" debate. It is reasonable to assume that there are good parts and not so good parts about MFP and that some will do better with it than others.
And wait...let say they are selecting the lowest activity and fastest rate of loss and therefore getting smaller calorie counts. Isn't it more likely that unless they are weighing and measuring, they are eating much more than they believe they are?
Unless people are losing weight at an alarming rate; it isn't unhealthy. Most come to ask for advice because they aren't losing, which means that even though they put in their stats incorrectly and set their calories low, they are eating more than what they need to lose weight. They aren't in danger-- they are just frustrated because they don't realize how much they are eating or where to cut.
In this thread, for this type of person, I'd say yeah... maybe try not eating your calories back and see what happens. Or maybe if you are feeling really hungry add some more filling foods. I don't have to put my entire worldview on them and try to get them to rework all they are doing for them to lose weight.
Also I did not make any arguments for exercise solely being for weight loss. I think it is good for both overall health and weight loss.
You keep setting up strawman arguments to make a point against but I'll answer anyway.
Try telling these people who are not losing weight despite thinking "I'm doing everything right" they are eating more than they think without explaining why that might be.
See what response you get.
I see plenty of threads were people are losing at an alarming and unhealthy rate and some of that can be due to not taking an extensive exercise regime into account "because it would be counter-productive".
I see plenty of threads where people are losing at a decent rate but are disappointed it's not quicker - the Quickest Loser effect?
And yes explaining how a tool works is both helpful and entirely reasonable when it's absolutely clear that many people simply don't understand. It remains their choice how to use it but without someone explaining the idiosyncrasies of how it works (and which aspects don't work well...) they make that choice based on ignorance.2 -
breefoshee wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I really think it depends on the person. I do sometimes and I don't sometimes.
MFP forum veterans are sticklers for weighing and measuring every morsel of food. So much so that if a person isn't losing weight and asks for advice, everyone jumps on them to open their diary so that they can prove that that person is not logging accurately and therefore eating too many calories.
What is funny to me is that those same people will go crazy over people saying that they are not eating exercise calories back or if someone is eating at 1200 calories. If you have already established that most people are eating more-- enough to where they aren't losing weight, then why does it matter if they choose not to eat calories back and create a small deficit there instead?
The reality is that many people won't be exact in logging. And they probably ARE eating more than they think... which means they probably won't see the results they want if they eat back all of their calories.
If you are really great at measuring and tracking, then you can probably eat them back and be fine. If you aren't so great at it, don't want the hassle, and find that you aren't seeing the results you want, don't eat them back and see if that helps.
If someone isn't losing weight when they're supposedly in a calorie deficit, the general most obvious answer is that they're accidentally eating more than they think you are. We're less "jumping" on people than offering help to people who are frustrated and asking for advice. What do you suggest - that we ignore what repeatedly been demonstrated to be the most likely cause of their frustration?
I have not seen a post where someone has gone "crazy" because someone isn't eating back their exercise calories. I'll defer to your experience here since you're claiming to see the same people do this repeatedly. I do see people recommending it to people who have very low calorie goals or are suffering from extreme hunger or lack of energy. Again, these are people asking for advice. If someone is eating much less than they need and asking for advice to deal with the consequences, I don't know what you would have people recommend other than "hey, you can eat back some of calories you're leaving on the table!"
I have been a myfitnesspal forum lurker for like 10 years (I've had some other accounts besides the one I have now.) What I have often seen is cut and dry, matter of fact, often condescending answers to people who oppose people with more than 1,000 comments next to their name. This isn't EVERY person-- I have seen many really kind and helpful people too.
But it almost never fails that people who ask "what am I doing wrong?" or "should i eat more than 1200 calories" or "I'm eating really clean"... will be met with some snark and a heavy does of "measure, measure, measure". I get that people are asking for this advice... but if someone is giving advice that isn't "measure" or "eat back your calories" then those responses are dismissed right away.
Personally, I have never been able to be as perfect as what the forums have recommended to me. After years of calculating TDEE, rearranging macros, and weighing every single thing, attempting heavy lifting, I've actually never been successful at doing those things. What's more is that I became so obsessed with numbers and control that I developed a full blown eating disorder (that thankfully, I no longer struggle with). I was actually more successful at weight loss and overall health, before I joined MFP and started obsessing over the numbers.
I wish someone would have told me 10 years ago that I didn't have to do all that to lose weight.
You can tell if you are in a deficit if you are losing weight over time. If you aren't, then look at how much you are eating and your patterns. If measuring isn't your thing, then make conscious decisions to eat less and observe the results. Losing too much? Eat more.
If someone isn't losing weight, do you think the advice to make sure they're being reasonably accurate with estimating their intake is BAD or misguided? What would you recommend to someone who thinks they've been in a deficit for six weeks and hasn't lost any weight, especially if they're using less accurate methods of estimating how many calories they're eating?
I've never seen anybody here say that it is required to know one's TDEE or to weigh everything to lose weight. People can lose weight in a calorie deficit without even knowing what a calorie is. But if someone is having trouble creating that deficit, I'm really confused as to why specific advice to help them get there is inappropriate, especially given that this is a website specifically dedicated to counting calories. We're not going to be recommending rebalancing chakras.
There have been multiple threads over the years where people have said they either can't or won't count calories for reasons of mental health or anxiety prevention. I have never seen this result in someone saying they CAN'T lose weight, it's just that their path may be less direct than someone who is actually counting calories with reasonable accuracy.
I believe it is mathematically correct advice. But literally every thread does not have to be "weigh and measure" and eat calories back. I can click on just about any given thread that will repeat this over and over for advice. There's more going on than people not knowing how buy a food scale.
And so when others give advice that isn't a repeat of this mantra, then they get all these disagrees and comments. This thread for example.... If a person says "heck no I don't eat calories back.... that just undoes my progress." Well...maybe for them it really does. And maybe the OP isn't a diligent tracker and would benefit from not eating calories back.
It's not that I think it is bad advice. But I do think it is the only allowed advice without feathers being ruffled and 10 people coming in to negate any advice because it doesn't fit with the weighing and measuring mantra. It's not so much maybe that people give this advice, but that they also have to debate everyone who comes up with a different response.
I know that many MFPers have been really successfully with this approach. But I've also seen a ton who have been here for years, preaching this approach and haven't been able to follow their own advice (me being one of them) and actually be successful at weight loss. We know the math... so what's wrong? Why is fad diet Kathy losing weight and keeping it off, while I sit here with my superior math and science and can't seem to stick to it? Sometimes, it's not just that.
We see it over and over because there are lots of threads with the same questions. Even if someone is the 1,000th person to ask a similar question, they should get the most relevant advice for their situation (even if it has been given to others previously).
If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it undoes my progress," that's an opportunity for them to understand how MFP actually works. If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it creates a buffer for my logging," that's a different story.
As far as advice not being allowed, it's absolutely allowed to recommend that people don't eat their calories back. People may disagree with you (and people may disagree with me), but the point of view can be expressed.
Your experience has shown you that successful weight management IS more than just knowing the math. The math has to be applied and that is where things can get logistically or psychologically challenging. That doesn't mean the math is invalid, it means that we all have different challenges when it comes to actually applying it to our complicated lives. It has nothing to do with an understanding of math and science. There are literal geniuses who can't manage their weight, just as there are geniuses who are addicted to various substances or can't get their romantic lives in order or have dirty homes. We're an odd species that way.
But while there is a valid and necessary and legitimate place to talk about the psychological or behavioral challenges we face in applying the principles of CICO to manage our weight, that doesn't undercut the underlying truth of how our bodies function. For me personally, I think there is a great value in people understanding exactly how it works so they can figure out how to tailor it to the circumstances of their lives and their emotional needs.
But again, the information is contradicted when you say "let me educate you on how MFP works"....then "but MFP inflates calorie burns"... you are essentially saying, "Trust MFP's set up... except for when we say otherwise." I also did not receive a lesson in weighing food when I signed up-- I had to come to the forums for that.
I do understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent. I would definitely say that if someone is not losing weight, they are not in a calorie deficit. And I do think that it is important to point that out and try to figure out where something is off.
But in saying that, I don't think it has to be strictly "weigh your foods." I think that MFP forums have a cultish vibe where if someone says something like "I think breakfast is really important" or "I eat 1200 calories a day" or "I skip the sugar and eat fruit instead" then there are knee-jerk responses opposing those views, when that actually could be help people who are not in a deficit get into a deficit without breaking out a scale.
What people are actually saying is that the method is entirely sensible.
That the exercise database here may not be the best way for many people to estimate their calorie expenditure does not negate in anyway that people's bodies are burning calories during exercise and if you are counting calories turning a blind eye doesn't make a lot of sense. It's just one of the energy needs of our bodies.
if you are talking of "cultish vibes" then the cult of selecting the fastest rate of loss (even when inappropriate), selecting the lowest activity level (even when not accurate) and then viewing exercise as solely for weight loss is a far more harmful "cult" than people trying to support healthy rates of weight loss and building healthy habits for life such as exercise being for health, fitness and even enjoyment.
Although exercise isn't required for successful weight loss there's a big correlation between successfully maintaining at goal weight and the habit of regular exercise.
That is fine, but don't use "This is how MFP was intended to be used" as a trump card to prop up your opinion in the "eat back your calories" debate. It is reasonable to assume that there are good parts and not so good parts about MFP and that some will do better with it than others.
And wait...let say they are selecting the lowest activity and fastest rate of loss and therefore getting smaller calorie counts. Isn't it more likely that unless they are weighing and measuring, they are eating much more than they believe they are?
Unless people are losing weight at an alarming rate; it isn't unhealthy. Most come to ask for advice because they aren't losing, which means that even though they put in their stats incorrectly and set their calories low, they are eating more than what they need to lose weight. They aren't in danger-- they are just frustrated because they don't realize how much they are eating or where to cut.
In this thread, for this type of person, I'd say yeah... maybe try not eating your calories back and see what happens. Or maybe if you are feeling really hungry add some more filling foods. I don't have to put my entire worldview on them and try to get them to rework all they are doing for them to lose weight.
Then maybe just say that, on the relevant threads, and ignore the disagrees? (It may help to explain the advice, i.e., that fast loss is the risk, so if no loss these strategies can work without creating number/math obsession, even though they're not canonical, or whatever?)
I think most of us give advice that worked for us, or that we think would work for us. It seems odd to imply that people are bothering to take time to post, but doing something other than that. Do you think that people post what they do, in pursuit of popularity, or something like that, instead?
We tend to give advice, and interpret others' advice, through our own personal filter of experience, I think. I try to type enough that people know why I'm giving the advice I'm giving. (But people hate long posts. Don't ask me how I know. 😆)
With respect to the bolded, I think that's a bit of a straw man. Sijomial, in particular - the guy to whom you're responding - has written very clear, specific, detailed posts around here about the most reasonable ways to estimate exercise calories for various types of exercise. And he's not the only one. IME, it's pretty common to see that kind of advice in the "eat back exercise calories" posts.
Overall, I agree with Jane: It's most helpful to make sure people understand how the tool was designed to be used, and also explain where relevant how to use it in different ways that may be useful to individuals. A "just don't eat your exercise" isn't more helpful than "always eat your exercise". (I agree with you - and have typed in threads dozens of times - is that it's actual weight loss rate that matters, when it comes to "too fast" or not.)
I'd say that "understand how MFP is designed" includes explaining about NEAT vs. TDEE and why exercise matters, *and* explaining that MFP's METS-based exercise estimates have technical flaws that are more of a problem in some scenarios than others. "Understand the tool" is not synonymous with "MFP is sacred and perfect" - understanding includes strengths and weaknesses, and features that can be either of those depending on how applied.
The long game here is not weight loss, IMO. It's successful loss followed by very long term successful maintenance. So, giving someone advice that gets the scale moving right now is OK in the moment, maybe not optimal in that big picture. The reply also goes beyond the OP, to other readers. "Never eat back exercise, it just ruins progress", if the only advice given in a reply post, deserves push-back for that reason alone, IMO. (Personally, I'm very grateful to have figured out how to lose/maintain weight when exercising lots, and when exercising little or not at all, both of which have happened for weeks at a time in the 5 years I've been here maintaining after loss.)
For sure, MFP forums have a culture, like most any gathering of people with ongoing interactions. Typically, IMO, the best way to change a culture - if that's a thing that matters to a person - is to model better behavior, and use positive persuasion when an opportunity arises. (In this case, that would be giving more nuanced, appropriate advice, and being thoughtful about any push-back, to improve the future advice.) Telling a diverse group "you're doing it wrong" is generally not an effective way to change a culture. Obviously, just my opinion.Also I did not make any arguments for exercise solely being for weight loss. I think it is good for both overall health and weight loss.
3 -
I am a fan of the TDEE method, so my exercise is considered when I set my calorie goal.
Typically my TDEE is 1900-2000 and I eat 1400-1700. I am almost to my goal weight (4-6 pounds away) and focusing more on body tone now. I have plenty of fat yet - but need to build/improve muscle. So my standard goals are to eat no less than 1400 daily, and get at least 100g protein daily.
HEre and there, though, are odd days. I had a dental procedure done yesterday-and was told to take it easy for a couple of days so as not to increase my heart rate substantially. So did light walking today, at a slower than normal pace, and my total burned today will probably just clear 1700. I'm mostly eating soup today supplemented by protein drinks, and my preferred soups tend to be lower cal. So I'm also destined to end around 1300 cals in.1 -
When I was actively trying to lose weight - I calculated by TDEE (based on a sedentary lifestyle bc I have a mainly desk job) and set my calorie goal to somewhere between my BMR and TDEE. So, if I did no workout - I was already on a calorie deficit. So if I did burn calories working out - I logged those calories and ate back 50-100% of them.
I lost weight at first without doing that but then I was tired all the time and it was hard for me to even eat nearly enough - and I stopped losing weight. I started losing again when I started eating back my calories.
Now I am at my goal weight (more or less) so I have my calorie goal set to my TDEE - I still workout (run 3-4 days per week) but I don't tend to eat those calories back as religiously unless I'm feeling the hunger.0 -
breefoshee wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I really think it depends on the person. I do sometimes and I don't sometimes.
MFP forum veterans are sticklers for weighing and measuring every morsel of food. So much so that if a person isn't losing weight and asks for advice, everyone jumps on them to open their diary so that they can prove that that person is not logging accurately and therefore eating too many calories.
What is funny to me is that those same people will go crazy over people saying that they are not eating exercise calories back or if someone is eating at 1200 calories. If you have already established that most people are eating more-- enough to where they aren't losing weight, then why does it matter if they choose not to eat calories back and create a small deficit there instead?
The reality is that many people won't be exact in logging. And they probably ARE eating more than they think... which means they probably won't see the results they want if they eat back all of their calories.
If you are really great at measuring and tracking, then you can probably eat them back and be fine. If you aren't so great at it, don't want the hassle, and find that you aren't seeing the results you want, don't eat them back and see if that helps.
If someone isn't losing weight when they're supposedly in a calorie deficit, the general most obvious answer is that they're accidentally eating more than they think you are. We're less "jumping" on people than offering help to people who are frustrated and asking for advice. What do you suggest - that we ignore what repeatedly been demonstrated to be the most likely cause of their frustration?
I have not seen a post where someone has gone "crazy" because someone isn't eating back their exercise calories. I'll defer to your experience here since you're claiming to see the same people do this repeatedly. I do see people recommending it to people who have very low calorie goals or are suffering from extreme hunger or lack of energy. Again, these are people asking for advice. If someone is eating much less than they need and asking for advice to deal with the consequences, I don't know what you would have people recommend other than "hey, you can eat back some of calories you're leaving on the table!"
I have been a myfitnesspal forum lurker for like 10 years (I've had some other accounts besides the one I have now.) What I have often seen is cut and dry, matter of fact, often condescending answers to people who oppose people with more than 1,000 comments next to their name. This isn't EVERY person-- I have seen many really kind and helpful people too.
But it almost never fails that people who ask "what am I doing wrong?" or "should i eat more than 1200 calories" or "I'm eating really clean"... will be met with some snark and a heavy does of "measure, measure, measure". I get that people are asking for this advice... but if someone is giving advice that isn't "measure" or "eat back your calories" then those responses are dismissed right away.
Personally, I have never been able to be as perfect as what the forums have recommended to me. After years of calculating TDEE, rearranging macros, and weighing every single thing, attempting heavy lifting, I've actually never been successful at doing those things. What's more is that I became so obsessed with numbers and control that I developed a full blown eating disorder (that thankfully, I no longer struggle with). I was actually more successful at weight loss and overall health, before I joined MFP and started obsessing over the numbers.
I wish someone would have told me 10 years ago that I didn't have to do all that to lose weight.
You can tell if you are in a deficit if you are losing weight over time. If you aren't, then look at how much you are eating and your patterns. If measuring isn't your thing, then make conscious decisions to eat less and observe the results. Losing too much? Eat more.
If someone isn't losing weight, do you think the advice to make sure they're being reasonably accurate with estimating their intake is BAD or misguided? What would you recommend to someone who thinks they've been in a deficit for six weeks and hasn't lost any weight, especially if they're using less accurate methods of estimating how many calories they're eating?
I've never seen anybody here say that it is required to know one's TDEE or to weigh everything to lose weight. People can lose weight in a calorie deficit without even knowing what a calorie is. But if someone is having trouble creating that deficit, I'm really confused as to why specific advice to help them get there is inappropriate, especially given that this is a website specifically dedicated to counting calories. We're not going to be recommending rebalancing chakras.
There have been multiple threads over the years where people have said they either can't or won't count calories for reasons of mental health or anxiety prevention. I have never seen this result in someone saying they CAN'T lose weight, it's just that their path may be less direct than someone who is actually counting calories with reasonable accuracy.
I believe it is mathematically correct advice. But literally every thread does not have to be "weigh and measure" and eat calories back. I can click on just about any given thread that will repeat this over and over for advice. There's more going on than people not knowing how buy a food scale.
And so when others give advice that isn't a repeat of this mantra, then they get all these disagrees and comments. This thread for example.... If a person says "heck no I don't eat calories back.... that just undoes my progress." Well...maybe for them it really does. And maybe the OP isn't a diligent tracker and would benefit from not eating calories back.
It's not that I think it is bad advice. But I do think it is the only allowed advice without feathers being ruffled and 10 people coming in to negate any advice because it doesn't fit with the weighing and measuring mantra. It's not so much maybe that people give this advice, but that they also have to debate everyone who comes up with a different response.
I know that many MFPers have been really successfully with this approach. But I've also seen a ton who have been here for years, preaching this approach and haven't been able to follow their own advice (me being one of them) and actually be successful at weight loss. We know the math... so what's wrong? Why is fad diet Kathy losing weight and keeping it off, while I sit here with my superior math and science and can't seem to stick to it? Sometimes, it's not just that.
We see it over and over because there are lots of threads with the same questions. Even if someone is the 1,000th person to ask a similar question, they should get the most relevant advice for their situation (even if it has been given to others previously).
If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it undoes my progress," that's an opportunity for them to understand how MFP actually works. If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it creates a buffer for my logging," that's a different story.
As far as advice not being allowed, it's absolutely allowed to recommend that people don't eat their calories back. People may disagree with you (and people may disagree with me), but the point of view can be expressed.
Your experience has shown you that successful weight management IS more than just knowing the math. The math has to be applied and that is where things can get logistically or psychologically challenging. That doesn't mean the math is invalid, it means that we all have different challenges when it comes to actually applying it to our complicated lives. It has nothing to do with an understanding of math and science. There are literal geniuses who can't manage their weight, just as there are geniuses who are addicted to various substances or can't get their romantic lives in order or have dirty homes. We're an odd species that way.
But while there is a valid and necessary and legitimate place to talk about the psychological or behavioral challenges we face in applying the principles of CICO to manage our weight, that doesn't undercut the underlying truth of how our bodies function. For me personally, I think there is a great value in people understanding exactly how it works so they can figure out how to tailor it to the circumstances of their lives and their emotional needs.
But again, the information is contradicted when you say "let me educate you on how MFP works"....then "but MFP inflates calorie burns"... you are essentially saying, "Trust MFP's set up... except for when we say otherwise." I also did not receive a lesson in weighing food when I signed up-- I had to come to the forums for that.
I do understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent. I would definitely say that if someone is not losing weight, they are not in a calorie deficit. And I do think that it is important to point that out and try to figure out where something is off.
But in saying that, I don't think it has to be strictly "weigh your foods." I think that MFP forums have a cultish vibe where if someone says something like "I think breakfast is really important" or "I eat 1200 calories a day" or "I skip the sugar and eat fruit instead" then there are knee-jerk responses opposing those views, when that actually could be help people who are not in a deficit get into a deficit without breaking out a scale.
What people are actually saying is that the method is entirely sensible.
That the exercise database here may not be the best way for many people to estimate their calorie expenditure does not negate in anyway that people's bodies are burning calories during exercise and if you are counting calories turning a blind eye doesn't make a lot of sense. It's just one of the energy needs of our bodies.
if you are talking of "cultish vibes" then the cult of selecting the fastest rate of loss (even when inappropriate), selecting the lowest activity level (even when not accurate) and then viewing exercise as solely for weight loss is a far more harmful "cult" than people trying to support healthy rates of weight loss and building healthy habits for life such as exercise being for health, fitness and even enjoyment.
Although exercise isn't required for successful weight loss there's a big correlation between successfully maintaining at goal weight and the habit of regular exercise.
That is fine, but don't use "This is how MFP was intended to be used" as a trump card to prop up your opinion in the "eat back your calories" debate. It is reasonable to assume that there are good parts and not so good parts about MFP and that some will do better with it than others.
And wait...let say they are selecting the lowest activity and fastest rate of loss and therefore getting smaller calorie counts. Isn't it more likely that unless they are weighing and measuring, they are eating much more than they believe they are?
Unless people are losing weight at an alarming rate; it isn't unhealthy. Most come to ask for advice because they aren't losing, which means that even though they put in their stats incorrectly and set their calories low, they are eating more than what they need to lose weight. They aren't in danger-- they are just frustrated because they don't realize how much they are eating or where to cut.
In this thread, for this type of person, I'd say yeah... maybe try not eating your calories back and see what happens. Or maybe if you are feeling really hungry add some more filling foods. I don't have to put my entire worldview on them and try to get them to rework all they are doing for them to lose weight.
Also I did not make any arguments for exercise solely being for weight loss. I think it is good for both overall health and weight loss.
You keep setting up strawman arguments to make a point against but I'll answer anyway.
Try telling these people who are not losing weight despite thinking "I'm doing everything right" they are eating more than they think without explaining why that might be.
See what response you get.
I see plenty of threads were people are losing at an alarming and unhealthy rate and some of that can be due to not taking an extensive exercise regime into account "because it would be counter-productive".
I see plenty of threads where people are losing at a decent rate but are disappointed it's not quicker - the Quickest Loser effect?
And yes explaining how a tool works is both helpful and entirely reasonable when it's absolutely clear that many people simply don't understand. It remains their choice how to use it but without someone explaining the idiosyncrasies of how it works (and which aspects don't work well...) they make that choice based on ignorance.
My intention isn't to set up strawman to make my point...but I do see where I am tipping in that direction. I think the further I get into this debate, the more strawman it gets (on both sides).
I am for information and balance. I get rubbed the wrong way with posts like this because I do see the "technically" right answer, but delivered in ways that I don't see as helpful to every individual-- specifically the ones who are fine with loose-logging.2 -
breefoshee wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I really think it depends on the person. I do sometimes and I don't sometimes.
MFP forum veterans are sticklers for weighing and measuring every morsel of food. So much so that if a person isn't losing weight and asks for advice, everyone jumps on them to open their diary so that they can prove that that person is not logging accurately and therefore eating too many calories.
What is funny to me is that those same people will go crazy over people saying that they are not eating exercise calories back or if someone is eating at 1200 calories. If you have already established that most people are eating more-- enough to where they aren't losing weight, then why does it matter if they choose not to eat calories back and create a small deficit there instead?
The reality is that many people won't be exact in logging. And they probably ARE eating more than they think... which means they probably won't see the results they want if they eat back all of their calories.
If you are really great at measuring and tracking, then you can probably eat them back and be fine. If you aren't so great at it, don't want the hassle, and find that you aren't seeing the results you want, don't eat them back and see if that helps.
If someone isn't losing weight when they're supposedly in a calorie deficit, the general most obvious answer is that they're accidentally eating more than they think you are. We're less "jumping" on people than offering help to people who are frustrated and asking for advice. What do you suggest - that we ignore what repeatedly been demonstrated to be the most likely cause of their frustration?
I have not seen a post where someone has gone "crazy" because someone isn't eating back their exercise calories. I'll defer to your experience here since you're claiming to see the same people do this repeatedly. I do see people recommending it to people who have very low calorie goals or are suffering from extreme hunger or lack of energy. Again, these are people asking for advice. If someone is eating much less than they need and asking for advice to deal with the consequences, I don't know what you would have people recommend other than "hey, you can eat back some of calories you're leaving on the table!"
I have been a myfitnesspal forum lurker for like 10 years (I've had some other accounts besides the one I have now.) What I have often seen is cut and dry, matter of fact, often condescending answers to people who oppose people with more than 1,000 comments next to their name. This isn't EVERY person-- I have seen many really kind and helpful people too.
But it almost never fails that people who ask "what am I doing wrong?" or "should i eat more than 1200 calories" or "I'm eating really clean"... will be met with some snark and a heavy does of "measure, measure, measure". I get that people are asking for this advice... but if someone is giving advice that isn't "measure" or "eat back your calories" then those responses are dismissed right away.
Personally, I have never been able to be as perfect as what the forums have recommended to me. After years of calculating TDEE, rearranging macros, and weighing every single thing, attempting heavy lifting, I've actually never been successful at doing those things. What's more is that I became so obsessed with numbers and control that I developed a full blown eating disorder (that thankfully, I no longer struggle with). I was actually more successful at weight loss and overall health, before I joined MFP and started obsessing over the numbers.
I wish someone would have told me 10 years ago that I didn't have to do all that to lose weight.
You can tell if you are in a deficit if you are losing weight over time. If you aren't, then look at how much you are eating and your patterns. If measuring isn't your thing, then make conscious decisions to eat less and observe the results. Losing too much? Eat more.
If someone isn't losing weight, do you think the advice to make sure they're being reasonably accurate with estimating their intake is BAD or misguided? What would you recommend to someone who thinks they've been in a deficit for six weeks and hasn't lost any weight, especially if they're using less accurate methods of estimating how many calories they're eating?
I've never seen anybody here say that it is required to know one's TDEE or to weigh everything to lose weight. People can lose weight in a calorie deficit without even knowing what a calorie is. But if someone is having trouble creating that deficit, I'm really confused as to why specific advice to help them get there is inappropriate, especially given that this is a website specifically dedicated to counting calories. We're not going to be recommending rebalancing chakras.
There have been multiple threads over the years where people have said they either can't or won't count calories for reasons of mental health or anxiety prevention. I have never seen this result in someone saying they CAN'T lose weight, it's just that their path may be less direct than someone who is actually counting calories with reasonable accuracy.
I believe it is mathematically correct advice. But literally every thread does not have to be "weigh and measure" and eat calories back. I can click on just about any given thread that will repeat this over and over for advice. There's more going on than people not knowing how buy a food scale.
And so when others give advice that isn't a repeat of this mantra, then they get all these disagrees and comments. This thread for example.... If a person says "heck no I don't eat calories back.... that just undoes my progress." Well...maybe for them it really does. And maybe the OP isn't a diligent tracker and would benefit from not eating calories back.
It's not that I think it is bad advice. But I do think it is the only allowed advice without feathers being ruffled and 10 people coming in to negate any advice because it doesn't fit with the weighing and measuring mantra. It's not so much maybe that people give this advice, but that they also have to debate everyone who comes up with a different response.
I know that many MFPers have been really successfully with this approach. But I've also seen a ton who have been here for years, preaching this approach and haven't been able to follow their own advice (me being one of them) and actually be successful at weight loss. We know the math... so what's wrong? Why is fad diet Kathy losing weight and keeping it off, while I sit here with my superior math and science and can't seem to stick to it? Sometimes, it's not just that.
We see it over and over because there are lots of threads with the same questions. Even if someone is the 1,000th person to ask a similar question, they should get the most relevant advice for their situation (even if it has been given to others previously).
If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it undoes my progress," that's an opportunity for them to understand how MFP actually works. If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it creates a buffer for my logging," that's a different story.
As far as advice not being allowed, it's absolutely allowed to recommend that people don't eat their calories back. People may disagree with you (and people may disagree with me), but the point of view can be expressed.
Your experience has shown you that successful weight management IS more than just knowing the math. The math has to be applied and that is where things can get logistically or psychologically challenging. That doesn't mean the math is invalid, it means that we all have different challenges when it comes to actually applying it to our complicated lives. It has nothing to do with an understanding of math and science. There are literal geniuses who can't manage their weight, just as there are geniuses who are addicted to various substances or can't get their romantic lives in order or have dirty homes. We're an odd species that way.
But while there is a valid and necessary and legitimate place to talk about the psychological or behavioral challenges we face in applying the principles of CICO to manage our weight, that doesn't undercut the underlying truth of how our bodies function. For me personally, I think there is a great value in people understanding exactly how it works so they can figure out how to tailor it to the circumstances of their lives and their emotional needs.
But again, the information is contradicted when you say "let me educate you on how MFP works"....then "but MFP inflates calorie burns"... you are essentially saying, "Trust MFP's set up... except for when we say otherwise." I also did not receive a lesson in weighing food when I signed up-- I had to come to the forums for that.
I do understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent. I would definitely say that if someone is not losing weight, they are not in a calorie deficit. And I do think that it is important to point that out and try to figure out where something is off.
But in saying that, I don't think it has to be strictly "weigh your foods." I think that MFP forums have a cultish vibe where if someone says something like "I think breakfast is really important" or "I eat 1200 calories a day" or "I skip the sugar and eat fruit instead" then there are knee-jerk responses opposing those views, when that actually could be help people who are not in a deficit get into a deficit without breaking out a scale.
What people are actually saying is that the method is entirely sensible.
That the exercise database here may not be the best way for many people to estimate their calorie expenditure does not negate in anyway that people's bodies are burning calories during exercise and if you are counting calories turning a blind eye doesn't make a lot of sense. It's just one of the energy needs of our bodies.
if you are talking of "cultish vibes" then the cult of selecting the fastest rate of loss (even when inappropriate), selecting the lowest activity level (even when not accurate) and then viewing exercise as solely for weight loss is a far more harmful "cult" than people trying to support healthy rates of weight loss and building healthy habits for life such as exercise being for health, fitness and even enjoyment.
Although exercise isn't required for successful weight loss there's a big correlation between successfully maintaining at goal weight and the habit of regular exercise.
That is fine, but don't use "This is how MFP was intended to be used" as a trump card to prop up your opinion in the "eat back your calories" debate. It is reasonable to assume that there are good parts and not so good parts about MFP and that some will do better with it than others.
And wait...let say they are selecting the lowest activity and fastest rate of loss and therefore getting smaller calorie counts. Isn't it more likely that unless they are weighing and measuring, they are eating much more than they believe they are?
Unless people are losing weight at an alarming rate; it isn't unhealthy. Most come to ask for advice because they aren't losing, which means that even though they put in their stats incorrectly and set their calories low, they are eating more than what they need to lose weight. They aren't in danger-- they are just frustrated because they don't realize how much they are eating or where to cut.
In this thread, for this type of person, I'd say yeah... maybe try not eating your calories back and see what happens. Or maybe if you are feeling really hungry add some more filling foods. I don't have to put my entire worldview on them and try to get them to rework all they are doing for them to lose weight.
Then maybe just say that, on the relevant threads, and ignore the disagrees? (It may help to explain the advice, i.e., that fast loss is the risk, so if no loss these strategies can work without creating number/math obsession, even though they're not canonical, or whatever?)
I think most of us give advice that worked for us, or that we think would work for us. It seems odd to imply that people are bothering to take time to post, but doing something other than that. Do you think that people post what they do, in pursuit of popularity, or something like that, instead?
We tend to give advice, and interpret others' advice, through our own personal filter of experience, I think. I try to type enough that people know why I'm giving the advice I'm giving. (But people hate long posts. Don't ask me how I know. 😆)
With respect to the bolded, I think that's a bit of a straw man. Sijomial, in particular - the guy to whom you're responding - has written very clear, specific, detailed posts around here about the most reasonable ways to estimate exercise calories for various types of exercise. And he's not the only one. IME, it's pretty common to see that kind of advice in the "eat back exercise calories" posts.
Overall, I agree with Jane: It's most helpful to make sure people understand how the tool was designed to be used, and also explain where relevant how to use it in different ways that may be useful to individuals. A "just don't eat your exercise" isn't more helpful than "always eat your exercise". (I agree with you - and have typed in threads dozens of times - is that it's actual weight loss rate that matters, when it comes to "too fast" or not.)
I'd say that "understand how MFP is designed" includes explaining about NEAT vs. TDEE and why exercise matters, *and* explaining that MFP's METS-based exercise estimates have technical flaws that are more of a problem in some scenarios than others. "Understand the tool" is not synonymous with "MFP is sacred and perfect" - understanding includes strengths and weaknesses, and features that can be either of those depending on how applied.
The long game here is not weight loss, IMO. It's successful loss followed by very long term successful maintenance. So, giving someone advice that gets the scale moving right now is OK in the moment, maybe not optimal in that big picture. The reply also goes beyond the OP, to other readers. "Never eat back exercise, it just ruins progress", if the only advice given in a reply post, deserves push-back for that reason alone, IMO. (Personally, I'm very grateful to have figured out how to lose/maintain weight when exercising lots, and when exercising little or not at all, both of which have happened for weeks at a time in the 5 years I've been here maintaining after loss.)
For sure, MFP forums have a culture, like most any gathering of people with ongoing interactions. Typically, IMO, the best way to change a culture - if that's a thing that matters to a person - is to model better behavior, and use positive persuasion when an opportunity arises. (In this case, that would be giving more nuanced, appropriate advice, and being thoughtful about any push-back, to improve the future advice.) Telling a diverse group "you're doing it wrong" is generally not an effective way to change a culture. Obviously, just my opinion.Also I did not make any arguments for exercise solely being for weight loss. I think it is good for both overall health and weight loss.
Hey Ann, I actually do read your responses a lot and really appreciate your approach. Yes, I do think that people post for accolades and atta-boys , just like people post for 'likes" on Facebook. I know this has been my intention a number of times lol.
I think that my concerns with the information isn't the information itself, but how it is presented. I think that some of the repeated mantras can be an unsustainable "diets" in themselves.
The reason for my response in this particular thread was because "eating all the calories back" or "not eating them" does really depend on the approach the person is taking to logging. But what I have seen in the threads is a majority with the opinion "you must weigh all the foods." So it makes sense to me that people who don't share this presupposition (or don't even know this exists yet) would say " don't eat them back!"
And if that is working for them... especially on a thread that says "What do YOU personally do?" then I don't see the reason for the push back. It is very likely that if that person begins eating back calories, they won't see the results anymore. And weight loss is hard, and if someone is actually making some headway, I don't want to complicate it by telling them... "MFP was designed xy way, and that is to eat back calories, but if you want to eat those back, you need to make sure you aren't eating them back already, cause you probably are."
That is just my unbridled thoughts and maybe I am pushing too far or overthinking. But today is election day, and my Facebook is filled with crazy posts and if I don't debate you people on this tiny thing, I will debate everyone else lol.2 -
breefoshee wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »breefoshee wrote: »I really think it depends on the person. I do sometimes and I don't sometimes.
MFP forum veterans are sticklers for weighing and measuring every morsel of food. So much so that if a person isn't losing weight and asks for advice, everyone jumps on them to open their diary so that they can prove that that person is not logging accurately and therefore eating too many calories.
What is funny to me is that those same people will go crazy over people saying that they are not eating exercise calories back or if someone is eating at 1200 calories. If you have already established that most people are eating more-- enough to where they aren't losing weight, then why does it matter if they choose not to eat calories back and create a small deficit there instead?
The reality is that many people won't be exact in logging. And they probably ARE eating more than they think... which means they probably won't see the results they want if they eat back all of their calories.
If you are really great at measuring and tracking, then you can probably eat them back and be fine. If you aren't so great at it, don't want the hassle, and find that you aren't seeing the results you want, don't eat them back and see if that helps.
If someone isn't losing weight when they're supposedly in a calorie deficit, the general most obvious answer is that they're accidentally eating more than they think you are. We're less "jumping" on people than offering help to people who are frustrated and asking for advice. What do you suggest - that we ignore what repeatedly been demonstrated to be the most likely cause of their frustration?
I have not seen a post where someone has gone "crazy" because someone isn't eating back their exercise calories. I'll defer to your experience here since you're claiming to see the same people do this repeatedly. I do see people recommending it to people who have very low calorie goals or are suffering from extreme hunger or lack of energy. Again, these are people asking for advice. If someone is eating much less than they need and asking for advice to deal with the consequences, I don't know what you would have people recommend other than "hey, you can eat back some of calories you're leaving on the table!"
I have been a myfitnesspal forum lurker for like 10 years (I've had some other accounts besides the one I have now.) What I have often seen is cut and dry, matter of fact, often condescending answers to people who oppose people with more than 1,000 comments next to their name. This isn't EVERY person-- I have seen many really kind and helpful people too.
But it almost never fails that people who ask "what am I doing wrong?" or "should i eat more than 1200 calories" or "I'm eating really clean"... will be met with some snark and a heavy does of "measure, measure, measure". I get that people are asking for this advice... but if someone is giving advice that isn't "measure" or "eat back your calories" then those responses are dismissed right away.
Personally, I have never been able to be as perfect as what the forums have recommended to me. After years of calculating TDEE, rearranging macros, and weighing every single thing, attempting heavy lifting, I've actually never been successful at doing those things. What's more is that I became so obsessed with numbers and control that I developed a full blown eating disorder (that thankfully, I no longer struggle with). I was actually more successful at weight loss and overall health, before I joined MFP and started obsessing over the numbers.
I wish someone would have told me 10 years ago that I didn't have to do all that to lose weight.
You can tell if you are in a deficit if you are losing weight over time. If you aren't, then look at how much you are eating and your patterns. If measuring isn't your thing, then make conscious decisions to eat less and observe the results. Losing too much? Eat more.
If someone isn't losing weight, do you think the advice to make sure they're being reasonably accurate with estimating their intake is BAD or misguided? What would you recommend to someone who thinks they've been in a deficit for six weeks and hasn't lost any weight, especially if they're using less accurate methods of estimating how many calories they're eating?
I've never seen anybody here say that it is required to know one's TDEE or to weigh everything to lose weight. People can lose weight in a calorie deficit without even knowing what a calorie is. But if someone is having trouble creating that deficit, I'm really confused as to why specific advice to help them get there is inappropriate, especially given that this is a website specifically dedicated to counting calories. We're not going to be recommending rebalancing chakras.
There have been multiple threads over the years where people have said they either can't or won't count calories for reasons of mental health or anxiety prevention. I have never seen this result in someone saying they CAN'T lose weight, it's just that their path may be less direct than someone who is actually counting calories with reasonable accuracy.
I believe it is mathematically correct advice. But literally every thread does not have to be "weigh and measure" and eat calories back. I can click on just about any given thread that will repeat this over and over for advice. There's more going on than people not knowing how buy a food scale.
And so when others give advice that isn't a repeat of this mantra, then they get all these disagrees and comments. This thread for example.... If a person says "heck no I don't eat calories back.... that just undoes my progress." Well...maybe for them it really does. And maybe the OP isn't a diligent tracker and would benefit from not eating calories back.
It's not that I think it is bad advice. But I do think it is the only allowed advice without feathers being ruffled and 10 people coming in to negate any advice because it doesn't fit with the weighing and measuring mantra. It's not so much maybe that people give this advice, but that they also have to debate everyone who comes up with a different response.
I know that many MFPers have been really successfully with this approach. But I've also seen a ton who have been here for years, preaching this approach and haven't been able to follow their own advice (me being one of them) and actually be successful at weight loss. We know the math... so what's wrong? Why is fad diet Kathy losing weight and keeping it off, while I sit here with my superior math and science and can't seem to stick to it? Sometimes, it's not just that.
We see it over and over because there are lots of threads with the same questions. Even if someone is the 1,000th person to ask a similar question, they should get the most relevant advice for their situation (even if it has been given to others previously).
If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it undoes my progress," that's an opportunity for them to understand how MFP actually works. If someone says "I don't eat back my calories because it creates a buffer for my logging," that's a different story.
As far as advice not being allowed, it's absolutely allowed to recommend that people don't eat their calories back. People may disagree with you (and people may disagree with me), but the point of view can be expressed.
Your experience has shown you that successful weight management IS more than just knowing the math. The math has to be applied and that is where things can get logistically or psychologically challenging. That doesn't mean the math is invalid, it means that we all have different challenges when it comes to actually applying it to our complicated lives. It has nothing to do with an understanding of math and science. There are literal geniuses who can't manage their weight, just as there are geniuses who are addicted to various substances or can't get their romantic lives in order or have dirty homes. We're an odd species that way.
But while there is a valid and necessary and legitimate place to talk about the psychological or behavioral challenges we face in applying the principles of CICO to manage our weight, that doesn't undercut the underlying truth of how our bodies function. For me personally, I think there is a great value in people understanding exactly how it works so they can figure out how to tailor it to the circumstances of their lives and their emotional needs.
But again, the information is contradicted when you say "let me educate you on how MFP works"....then "but MFP inflates calorie burns"... you are essentially saying, "Trust MFP's set up... except for when we say otherwise." I also did not receive a lesson in weighing food when I signed up-- I had to come to the forums for that.
I do understand where you are coming from and agree to some extent. I would definitely say that if someone is not losing weight, they are not in a calorie deficit. And I do think that it is important to point that out and try to figure out where something is off.
But in saying that, I don't think it has to be strictly "weigh your foods." I think that MFP forums have a cultish vibe where if someone says something like "I think breakfast is really important" or "I eat 1200 calories a day" or "I skip the sugar and eat fruit instead" then there are knee-jerk responses opposing those views, when that actually could be help people who are not in a deficit get into a deficit without breaking out a scale.
What people are actually saying is that the method is entirely sensible.
That the exercise database here may not be the best way for many people to estimate their calorie expenditure does not negate in anyway that people's bodies are burning calories during exercise and if you are counting calories turning a blind eye doesn't make a lot of sense. It's just one of the energy needs of our bodies.
if you are talking of "cultish vibes" then the cult of selecting the fastest rate of loss (even when inappropriate), selecting the lowest activity level (even when not accurate) and then viewing exercise as solely for weight loss is a far more harmful "cult" than people trying to support healthy rates of weight loss and building healthy habits for life such as exercise being for health, fitness and even enjoyment.
Although exercise isn't required for successful weight loss there's a big correlation between successfully maintaining at goal weight and the habit of regular exercise.
That is fine, but don't use "This is how MFP was intended to be used" as a trump card to prop up your opinion in the "eat back your calories" debate. It is reasonable to assume that there are good parts and not so good parts about MFP and that some will do better with it than others.
And wait...let say they are selecting the lowest activity and fastest rate of loss and therefore getting smaller calorie counts. Isn't it more likely that unless they are weighing and measuring, they are eating much more than they believe they are?
Unless people are losing weight at an alarming rate; it isn't unhealthy. Most come to ask for advice because they aren't losing, which means that even though they put in their stats incorrectly and set their calories low, they are eating more than what they need to lose weight. They aren't in danger-- they are just frustrated because they don't realize how much they are eating or where to cut.
In this thread, for this type of person, I'd say yeah... maybe try not eating your calories back and see what happens. Or maybe if you are feeling really hungry add some more filling foods. I don't have to put my entire worldview on them and try to get them to rework all they are doing for them to lose weight.
Then maybe just say that, on the relevant threads, and ignore the disagrees? (It may help to explain the advice, i.e., that fast loss is the risk, so if no loss these strategies can work without creating number/math obsession, even though they're not canonical, or whatever?)
I think most of us give advice that worked for us, or that we think would work for us. It seems odd to imply that people are bothering to take time to post, but doing something other than that. Do you think that people post what they do, in pursuit of popularity, or something like that, instead?
We tend to give advice, and interpret others' advice, through our own personal filter of experience, I think. I try to type enough that people know why I'm giving the advice I'm giving. (But people hate long posts. Don't ask me how I know. 😆)
With respect to the bolded, I think that's a bit of a straw man. Sijomial, in particular - the guy to whom you're responding - has written very clear, specific, detailed posts around here about the most reasonable ways to estimate exercise calories for various types of exercise. And he's not the only one. IME, it's pretty common to see that kind of advice in the "eat back exercise calories" posts.
Overall, I agree with Jane: It's most helpful to make sure people understand how the tool was designed to be used, and also explain where relevant how to use it in different ways that may be useful to individuals. A "just don't eat your exercise" isn't more helpful than "always eat your exercise". (I agree with you - and have typed in threads dozens of times - is that it's actual weight loss rate that matters, when it comes to "too fast" or not.)
I'd say that "understand how MFP is designed" includes explaining about NEAT vs. TDEE and why exercise matters, *and* explaining that MFP's METS-based exercise estimates have technical flaws that are more of a problem in some scenarios than others. "Understand the tool" is not synonymous with "MFP is sacred and perfect" - understanding includes strengths and weaknesses, and features that can be either of those depending on how applied.
The long game here is not weight loss, IMO. It's successful loss followed by very long term successful maintenance. So, giving someone advice that gets the scale moving right now is OK in the moment, maybe not optimal in that big picture. The reply also goes beyond the OP, to other readers. "Never eat back exercise, it just ruins progress", if the only advice given in a reply post, deserves push-back for that reason alone, IMO. (Personally, I'm very grateful to have figured out how to lose/maintain weight when exercising lots, and when exercising little or not at all, both of which have happened for weeks at a time in the 5 years I've been here maintaining after loss.)
For sure, MFP forums have a culture, like most any gathering of people with ongoing interactions. Typically, IMO, the best way to change a culture - if that's a thing that matters to a person - is to model better behavior, and use positive persuasion when an opportunity arises. (In this case, that would be giving more nuanced, appropriate advice, and being thoughtful about any push-back, to improve the future advice.) Telling a diverse group "you're doing it wrong" is generally not an effective way to change a culture. Obviously, just my opinion.Also I did not make any arguments for exercise solely being for weight loss. I think it is good for both overall health and weight loss.
Hey Ann, I actually do read your responses a lot and really appreciate your approach. Yes, I do think that people post for accolades and atta-boys , just like people post for 'likes" on Facebook. I know this has been my intention a number of times lol.
I think that my concerns with the information isn't the information itself, but how it is presented. I think that some of the repeated mantras can be an unsustainable "diets" in themselves.
The reason for my response in this particular thread was because "eating all the calories back" or "not eating them" does really depend on the approach the person is taking to logging. But what I have seen in the threads is a majority with the opinion "you must weigh all the foods." So it makes sense to me that people who don't share this presupposition (or don't even know this exists yet) would say " don't eat them back!"
And if that is working for them... especially on a thread that says "What do YOU personally do?" then I don't see the reason for the push back. It is very likely that if that person begins eating back calories, they won't see the results anymore. And weight loss is hard, and if someone is actually making some headway, I don't want to complicate it by telling them... "MFP was designed xy way, and that is to eat back calories, but if you want to eat those back, you need to make sure you aren't eating them back already, cause you probably are."
That is just my unbridled thoughts and maybe I am pushing too far or overthinking. But today is election day, and my Facebook is filled with crazy posts and if I don't debate you people on this tiny thing, I will debate everyone else lol.
Speaking only for myself, here.
I like understanding how tools work, or are intended to work (including flaws), as an old (retired) IT nerd type. Knowledge is power.
I can't understand posting for popularity, as someone who's old and has (maybe excessive) ego strength.
I like bending tools to my own needs and goals, even if that's not exactly what the designers intended, as an aging hippie. (And doing that subversion is easier if one understands the tool well.)
If my advice doesn't reflect both the nerd and the hippie, I'm not quite reaching my intended, desired benchmark.
I hear what you're saying about the craziness and the debate thing. Ugh.
FWIW, I'm one who gave you a hug reaction on the post I quoted above. Keep thinking, keep challenging, keep doing what you think is right . . . keep explaining *why* you think it's right. Good stuff.
4 -
If I didn’t eat back my exercise calories I would die.
I walk for 3-4 hours a day, do a home workout on top of that on at least three days per week, and hike 15 miles or so at weekends. Heck yeah am I adjusting my eating to compensate for that level of expenditure.6 -
I try to refuel with complex carbs and protein. In the past, I have trained hard and lost muscle because I wasn't refueling properly.0
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