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Building muscle mass on a deficit
GlynIrish
Posts: 84 Member
Hi I know this has possibly been asked a million times before
But I want to ask all the dedicated people on this there opinion on building muscle on a deficit
I have lost 60lbs over the last 2 years I still have about 20 lbs to lose but have started lifting 4 times a week plus some calisthenics and hiking the other days
Current calories are set to 1700 I dropped them from 2600 as the scales has not budged in a few weeks
My question is should I keep my calories at 2600 and go for recomp or cut down to lose the last bit of fat and then start increasing to build
But I want to ask all the dedicated people on this there opinion on building muscle on a deficit
I have lost 60lbs over the last 2 years I still have about 20 lbs to lose but have started lifting 4 times a week plus some calisthenics and hiking the other days
Current calories are set to 1700 I dropped them from 2600 as the scales has not budged in a few weeks
My question is should I keep my calories at 2600 and go for recomp or cut down to lose the last bit of fat and then start increasing to build
2
Replies
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You have not shared enough information for someone to advise what you could do.
Recomp would be keep the same weight and add 20 lbs of muscle. This will take some serious muscle growth.
Building on a deficit is harder but achievable. This is what I did. It is likely that 1700 Cal is too low unless you are about 5 feet tall. Calc your BMR and TDEE and aim for somewhere in between.
Building on a deficit requires careful attention to macros and nutrients. Empty calories will be bad. In this state make your calories count.
FR sent2 -
Thanks for the reply and friend request..
My tdee is 3088
And bmr is 1960
So thinking was I right with 2600 a day even tho I was losing on the scales cloths were getting looser and gaining strength
I'm 34 100kg would like to be around 80 but I'm by no means a small man regardless0 -
I am not an expert, but find these articles informative:
https://legionathletics.com/newbie-gains/
https://legionathletics.com/calorie-cycling/
Disclaimer : legion athletics is a supplement and coaching company. Other than buying their book, “Thinner, Leaner, Stronger”, and Reading their articles, I have not used their products or services. I do not support the use of supplements.
By the way, the book was pretty well an accumulation of all their articles just organized into a book.
Congratulations on your healthy lifestyle journey and 60lb weight loss!! You are an inspiration!!0 -
Meant to add macros set at 40/30/30 c/p/f
But I do try keep carbs low under 100 if possible
Am I sabotaging myself doing this0 -
tgillies003 wrote: »I am not an expert, but find these articles informative:
https://legionathletics.com/newbie-gains/
https://legionathletics.com/calorie-cycling/
Disclaimer : legion athletics is a supplement and coaching company. Other than buying their book, “Thinner, Leaner, Stronger”, and Reading their articles, I have not used their products or services. I do not support the use of supplements.
By the way, the book was pretty well an accumulation of all their articles just organized into a book.
Congratulations on your healthy lifestyle journey and 60lb weight loss!! You are an inspiration!!
Thank you very much
0 -
Thanks for the reply and friend request..
My tdee is 3088
And bmr is 1960
So thinking was I right with 2600 a day even tho I was losing on the scales cloths were getting looser and gaining strength
I'm 34 100kg would like to be around 80 but I'm by no means a small man regardlessMeant to add macros set at 40/30/30 c/p/f
But I do try keep carbs low under 100 if possible
Am I sabotaging myself doing this
30% of 1700 calories is 128g protein. You say your goal weight is 80kg (176 pounds). Many people suggest 1.5-2.2 of protein (or more) per kg of goal bodyweight. 128g would be on the low end.
If your TDEE is actually 3088 and your BMR 1960, you should lose weight at calories well above 1700. (Heck, I lose weight slowly at 1850 plus exercise, and I'm a 64-year-old, 165cm, 58kg woman.)
Did you by any chance start that lifting/workout routine a few weeks ago, eating 2600, then see the scale stall? If so, the normal water weight increase from new workouts (for muscle repair) may simply have masked fat loss on the scale for a while - maybe up to a few weeks.
Losing slowly would give you the best odds of muscle mass gain. 1700 sounds pretty low to me. I assume the TDEE/BMR numbers you gave are estimates, so could be off, but if you were losing well at 2600 previously, you shouldn't need to drop as low as 1700 to lose now, even if a bit lighter. Are you eating back exercise calories on top of the 1700? If so, how are you estimating them? If you're not eating them back, and simply eating 1700, that seems really low for an active man your age.6 -
Thanks for the reply and friend request..
My tdee is 3088
And bmr is 1960
So thinking was I right with 2600 a day even tho I was losing on the scales cloths were getting looser and gaining strength
I'm 34 100kg would like to be around 80 but I'm by no means a small man regardlessMeant to add macros set at 40/30/30 c/p/f
But I do try keep carbs low under 100 if possible
Am I sabotaging myself doing this
30% of 1700 calories is 128g protein. You say your goal weight is 80kg (176 pounds). Many people suggest 1.5-2.2 of protein (or more) per kg of goal bodyweight. 128g would be on the low end.
If your TDEE is actually 3088 and your BMR 1960, you should lose weight at calories well above 1700. (Heck, I lose weight slowly at 1850 plus exercise, and I'm a 64-year-old, 165cm, 58kg woman.)
Did you by any chance start that lifting/workout routine a few weeks ago, eating 2600, then see the scale stall? If so, the normal water weight increase from new workouts (for muscle repair) may simply have masked fat loss on the scale for a while - maybe up to a few weeks.
Losing slowly would give you the best odds of muscle mass gain. 1700 sounds pretty low to me. I assume the TDEE/BMR numbers you gave are estimates, so could be off, but if you were losing well at 2600 previously, you shouldn't need to drop as low as 1700 to lose now, even if a bit lighter. Are you eating back exercise calories on top of the 1700? If so, how are you estimating them? If you're not eating them back, and simply eating 1700, that seems really low for an active man your age.
Thanks for your feed back
My tdee and bmr are calculated online but I did only drop to 1700 two days ago
Needless to say it wasn't easy staying at that so I moved back up today to 2600
I have been lifting on and off the last 2 years but started back full time a few weeks ago so yes maybe your right water weight plus new exercise = weight on scales not moving
I do try to get around 200g of protein a day but I also eat only when hungry
2600 is a deficit for me so back to my original question of is it possible to gain mass on a deficit or should I increase my calories to build muscle
0 -
Thanks for the reply and friend request..
My tdee is 3088
And bmr is 1960
So thinking was I right with 2600 a day even tho I was losing on the scales cloths were getting looser and gaining strength
I'm 34 100kg would like to be around 80 but I'm by no means a small man regardlessMeant to add macros set at 40/30/30 c/p/f
But I do try keep carbs low under 100 if possible
Am I sabotaging myself doing this
30% of 1700 calories is 128g protein. You say your goal weight is 80kg (176 pounds). Many people suggest 1.5-2.2 of protein (or more) per kg of goal bodyweight. 128g would be on the low end.
If your TDEE is actually 3088 and your BMR 1960, you should lose weight at calories well above 1700. (Heck, I lose weight slowly at 1850 plus exercise, and I'm a 64-year-old, 165cm, 58kg woman.)
Did you by any chance start that lifting/workout routine a few weeks ago, eating 2600, then see the scale stall? If so, the normal water weight increase from new workouts (for muscle repair) may simply have masked fat loss on the scale for a while - maybe up to a few weeks.
Losing slowly would give you the best odds of muscle mass gain. 1700 sounds pretty low to me. I assume the TDEE/BMR numbers you gave are estimates, so could be off, but if you were losing well at 2600 previously, you shouldn't need to drop as low as 1700 to lose now, even if a bit lighter. Are you eating back exercise calories on top of the 1700? If so, how are you estimating them? If you're not eating them back, and simply eating 1700, that seems really low for an active man your age.
Thanks for your feed back
My tdee and bmr are calculated online but I did only drop to 1700 two days ago
Needless to say it wasn't easy staying at that so I moved back up today to 2600
I have been lifting on and off the last 2 years but started back full time a few weeks ago so yes maybe your right water weight plus new exercise = weight on scales not moving
I do try to get around 200g of protein a day but I also eat only when hungry
2600 is a deficit for me so back to my original question of is it possible to gain mass on a deficit or should I increase my calories to build muscle
I think the theoretical answer is "maybe", but more likely if new to strength training, still substantially obese, and/or losing weight only very slowly (like half a pound a week or less). Some people will say impossible, but I don't think it's that absolute. I think a deficit reduces odds of muscle gain, or slows the gain as compared to being at maintenance or (even more so) in a calorie surplus, but whether a deficit prevents gain is more individualized.
If you feel like you still have significant fat to lose (I think you said 20 pounds?), maybe try a small deficit for a few months, get good nutrition, follow a good program, see how you feel about the results? I'd point out that you can change course at any time, if you want to. It's not a permanent decision.
ETA: I see that someone disagrees with my previous post. They haven't said what they disagree with, but I admit you're just getting my opinions based on my reading/experience, and I'm not any kind of expert in this realm. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong. I hope others will give you their opinons, so you can consider and evaluate. That would be good.
P.S. Glad to see you're going back to 2600. I'd say stick with that and your exercise routine for 6 weeks-ish, see how things go. Best wishes!3 -
Thanks for the reply and friend request..
My tdee is 3088
And bmr is 1960
So thinking was I right with 2600 a day even tho I was losing on the scales cloths were getting looser and gaining strength
I'm 34 100kg would like to be around 80 but I'm by no means a small man regardlessMeant to add macros set at 40/30/30 c/p/f
But I do try keep carbs low under 100 if possible
Am I sabotaging myself doing this
30% of 1700 calories is 128g protein. You say your goal weight is 80kg (176 pounds). Many people suggest 1.5-2.2 of protein (or more) per kg of goal bodyweight. 128g would be on the low end.
If your TDEE is actually 3088 and your BMR 1960, you should lose weight at calories well above 1700. (Heck, I lose weight slowly at 1850 plus exercise, and I'm a 64-year-old, 165cm, 58kg woman.)
Did you by any chance start that lifting/workout routine a few weeks ago, eating 2600, then see the scale stall? If so, the normal water weight increase from new workouts (for muscle repair) may simply have masked fat loss on the scale for a while - maybe up to a few weeks.
Losing slowly would give you the best odds of muscle mass gain. 1700 sounds pretty low to me. I assume the TDEE/BMR numbers you gave are estimates, so could be off, but if you were losing well at 2600 previously, you shouldn't need to drop as low as 1700 to lose now, even if a bit lighter. Are you eating back exercise calories on top of the 1700? If so, how are you estimating them? If you're not eating them back, and simply eating 1700, that seems really low for an active man your age.
Thanks for your feed back
My tdee and bmr are calculated online but I did only drop to 1700 two days ago
Needless to say it wasn't easy staying at that so I moved back up today to 2600
I have been lifting on and off the last 2 years but started back full time a few weeks ago so yes maybe your right water weight plus new exercise = weight on scales not moving
I do try to get around 200g of protein a day but I also eat only when hungry
2600 is a deficit for me so back to my original question of is it possible to gain mass on a deficit or should I increase my calories to build muscle
I think the theoretical answer is "maybe", but more likely if new to strength training, still substantially obese, and/or losing weight only very slowly (like half a pound a week or less). Some people will say impossible, but I don't think it's that absolute. I think a deficit reduces odds of muscle gain, or slows the gain as compared to being at maintenance or (even more so) in a calorie surplus, but whether a deficit prevents gain is more individualized.
If you feel like you still have significant fat to lose (I think you said 20 pounds?), maybe try a small deficit for a few months, get good nutrition, follow a good program, see how you feel about the results? I'd point out that you can change course at any time, if you want to. It's not a permanent decision.
ETA: I see that someone disagrees with my previous post. They haven't said what they disagree with, but I admit you're just getting my opinions based on my reading/experience, and I'm not any kind of expert in this realm. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong. I hope others will give you their opinons, so you can consider and evaluate. That would be good.
P.S. Glad to see you're going back to 2600. I'd say stick with that and your exercise routine for 6 weeks-ish, see how things go. Best wishes!
Thank you very much for your help I really appreciate it
1 -
"GlynIrish wrote:2600 is a deficit for me so back to my original question of is it possible to gain mass on a deficit or should I increase my calories to build muscle
Of course it's possible because to be impossible not one single person could build muscle if they ate at 1 calorie under their TDEE.
Bearing in mind that everyone successfully recomping while maintaining their weight are actually in a small calorie deficit* it's clear that deficit/surplus isn't a switch or mode change but just a factor.
(* think of the relative calorie density of fat v. muscle.)
It would be very unusual for someone under-trained and in a tiny deficit and training effectively NOT to be be able to increase their muscle mass to a degree (someone very highly trained, close to their maximum potential and already lean for example).
But whether that degree of muscle building is significant depends on lot of factors.
This link has some good info....
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10611633/gaining-muscle-in-a-deficit/p1
Increasing your calories does not build muscle - it may support your exercise and recovery better but it supports the process and doesn't drive the process (assuming you aren't currently starving yourself). It's your training that drives muscle gain. Low carb may not be the best choice for supporting your exercise performance so I would question that choice.
Irrespective of the possible/impossible theorectical discussion your results doing the right things (effective training, appropriate deficit, good protein level) still lead to your best possible outcome whether that's some gain, keeping what you have or losing the smallest amount of muscle.
If you want to lose 20lbs then you need a deficit. Switching to a surplus to build muscle would be a valid choice only if you prioritise muscle gain over body composition.0 -
Congrats on your weight loss. Do you know your bodyfat level? True you need surplus calories (energy) to build muscle but a good part of the surplus calories can come from fat (stored energy) if you have excess bodyfat.
Couple articles on the topic:
https://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/lose-weight-and-build-muscle-or-do-one-then-the-other/
https://www.bodybuilding.com/content/build-muscle-and-lose-fat-simultaneously-yes-it-is-possible.html0 -
forgive me if you mentioned your height and I did not catch it, you are obviously male and 34 years old and 100kg I believe is about 220 pounds, regardless based on what I have observed with friends with similar goals you may have conflicting goals, although you do naturally grow muscles while exercising I would not focus on bulking during a calorie deficit, it's like saying I want to be strong and run marathons, if you shoot for both your are going to be ok at both but not excel at one, you don't see many 220 buffed marathon runners, ha ha
so keep it simple, meet your weight loss goal first, then and this is super important maintain, maintain for like a year, we all get so caught up in weight loss and "diets" that we do not know what it takes to maintain, you may find that in order to maintain 200 lbs you actually need to eat more than what you expected especially when you are active, so then you may start building muscles naturally during the maintenance phase
one last thing I see that you are a numbers guy and I would ease off on all the number crunching, but one thing I would recommend is paying attention to your body fat % I rather see and talk about that number than your weight, because 200 lbs at 22% body fat is totally different than 200 lbs at 15%
hope this helps0 -
forgive me if you mentioned your height and I did not catch it, you are obviously male and 34 years old and 100kg I believe is about 220 pounds, regardless based on what I have observed with friends with similar goals you may have conflicting goals, although you do naturally grow muscles while exercising I would not focus on bulking during a calorie deficit, it's like saying I want to be strong and run marathons, if you shoot for both your are going to be ok at both but not excel at one, you don't see many 220 buffed marathon runners, ha ha
so keep it simple, meet your weight loss goal first, then and this is super important maintain, maintain for like a year, we all get so caught up in weight loss and "diets" that we do not know what it takes to maintain, you may find that in order to maintain 200 lbs you actually need to eat more than what you expected especially when you are active, so then you may start building muscles naturally during the maintenance phase
one last thing I see that you are a numbers guy and I would ease off on all the number crunching, but one thing I would recommend is paying attention to your body fat % I rather see and talk about that number than your weight, because 200 lbs at 22% body fat is totally different than 200 lbs at 15%
hope this helps
Are you suggesting the OP should not be doing resistance training until he loses 20 lbs?
If so strongly disagree.3 -
Theoldguy1 wrote: »
Are you suggesting the OP should not be doing resistance training until he loses 20 lbs?
If so strongly disagree.
no idea where you got that from, short answer is no I am not, resistance training is paramount in weight loss0 -
Thanks for all the opinions I appreciate it
I will keep going with 2600 which is a small deficit keep lifting and increase my carbs a small bit
I already have protein reasonable
I will then see how I'm going in a few months of this and reevaluate what I want to do
Thanks everyone1 -
oh one thing to add do not do / take / drink any supplements (shakes) while attempting to loose weight (if you are healthy otherwise no known deficiencies) remember the best way to burn calories is not to put them in your mouth hole in the first place, and don't get me started on the unregulated supplements industry and the fraud that is rampant among it, seems like every year they take another product off the shelf for not containing what it claimed2
This discussion has been closed.
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