Diets

meaganraney1138
meaganraney1138 Posts: 3 Member
in Health and Weight Loss
Is keto really worth it or is regular calorie counting just as good?
«1

Replies

  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    Calorie awareness is better than keto for weight loss and for health. And for enjoyment too.
  • bubus05
    bubus05 Posts: 121 Member
    It is the calories you put in that count really whatever diet you use, whether it is keto, paleo or high carb. The problem for me with just simply counting the cals was that I got lazy doing it. If you know for sure you'll be able to track and record your food accuratly then you probably dont need keto. ...with keto you focus your attention on what you actually eat not so much how much of it, I found this approach easier and more effective but each to their own. Still need an awareness when it comes to how much cals you put in but generally because fat tends to be highly satiating you won't need to be as accurate as with simply cal counting. There are days I dont count at all, it doesn't really effect my diet. To lose weight though you will still need to be in calorie deficit to be sure, keto is just a highly effective method doing it, among others.
  • ChickenKillerPuppy
    ChickenKillerPuppy Posts: 297 Member
    I guess I would want to know what you mean by "worth it." What is your goal? Why does Keto appeal to you? Personally, I don't have any desire to do something like Keto because my goal (now) is to maintain my weight (it was to lose weight) and I want to eat whatever I like in my calorie range which I do. Keto and those diets don't cause you to lose weight any faster, if that is what "worth it" means to you, you just need a calorie deficit for that. I suppose Keto can have benefits if your goal is to restrict carbs for some health reason.
  • TeaBea
    TeaBea Posts: 14,517 Member
    meaganraney1138 wrote: »
    Is keto really worth it or is regular calorie counting just as good?

    To lose weight you need to restrict calories.....period. Be it, restricting a certain macro (keto) or meal timing (fasting) or logging portions - you need to find a way to reduce calories consistently.

    If logging food and counting calories does not appeal to you, you might look for a diet that restricts enough to reduce calories without logging. You could try the No "S Diet." No snacks, no sweets, no seconds, except sometimes on days that begin with "S" - Saturdays, Sundays, & special days (holidays/birthdays). Even then, it's possible to load up on "firsts" so you don't feel the need for seconds.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,865 Member
    meaganraney1138 wrote: »
    Is keto really worth it or is regular calorie counting just as good?

    All diets work the same way...calorie restriction. In the case of Keto, you are substantially restricting an entire macro-nutrient to almost nothing. Such a restriction will, for most people, also substantially restrict calories.

    The only difference with keto is that people lose a pretty big chunk of water weight early on due to the fact that carbohydrates carry about 3-4 grams of water per every gram of carbohydrate. I guess that's something that might motivate some people...but the reality is that it's just water. That big water dump also comes right back on when keto is stopped.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,225 Member
    psychod787 wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    h27zjawgvyoy.jpg

    Wait... wait... wait..... what if I eat a paleo, low carb, low fat, inside an 8hr window, while tracking my points diet? Does it still work by creating a caloric deficit?

    For you, dear nephew, only if you Lift Heavy and do an hour of HIIT every. single. day. Oh, and don't eat white foods, hidden sugars, junk food, fast food, nor anything processed.

    (To others: Joking!)

    (To OP: Keto is useful if it helps you, personally, be happy while sticking with a sensible calorie goal. Otherwise, it's a needless, irrelevant complication. The observation in previous posts about carbs and water weight? That's accurate.)
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,427 MFP Moderator
    edited April 2021
    meaganraney1138 wrote: »
    Is keto really worth it or is regular calorie counting just as good?

    The only thing that matters, and no one can tell you this, is determining what is sustainable for you and your journey. Keto wasn't too hard for me to sustain. It satiated me and i largely focus on meats and dairy.... So it worked. From a performance perspective, and the reason i came off keto was it hurt my lifts a lot.
  • Hotelsma
    Hotelsma Posts: 404 Member
    meaganraney1138 wrote: »
    Is keto really worth it or is regular calorie counting just as good?

    @meaganraney1138 i find keto one of the most effective diets that works for me. Done it many times to be able to testify. But ultimately the real secret to losing weight is not giving up. Every diet works as long as you STICK TO IT long enough. Find the one that works for you and keep going
  • psychod787
    psychod787 Posts: 4,099 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    psychod787 wrote: »
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    h27zjawgvyoy.jpg

    Wait... wait... wait..... what if I eat a paleo, low carb, low fat, inside an 8hr window, while tracking my points diet? Does it still work by creating a caloric deficit?

    For you, dear nephew, only if you Lift Heavy and do an hour of HIIT every. single. day. Oh, and don't eat white foods, hidden sugars, junk food, fast food, nor anything processed.

    (To others: Joking!)

    (To OP: Keto is useful if it helps you, personally, be happy while sticking with a sensible calorie goal. Otherwise, it's a needless, irrelevant complication. The observation in previous posts about carbs and water weight? That's accurate.)

    Lost me at HIIT... lol😉
  • Annie42019
    Annie42019 Posts: 85 Member
    edited April 2021
    The reason WW doesn’t work for me is that zero point foods weren’t creating a calorie deficit. “But how many bananas or gapes can you eat” says WW fan- friend. Me:” 5 bananas and 5 pounds of grapes a day. ” . Not kidding. Wish I was.
  • paperpudding
    paperpudding Posts: 9,282 Member
    Me personally - keto would be bad idea.

    I like far too many carby foods and have no problem eating them in calorie appropriate amounts.

    But some people like keto.

    If it suits you, do it. Or don't, if it doesn't.

    Either way you need to be in calorie deficit to lose weight.
  • CholeRoad
    CholeRoad Posts: 47 Member
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    Hotelsma wrote: »
    meaganraney1138 wrote: »
    Is keto really worth it or is regular calorie counting just as good?

    @meaganraney1138 i find keto one of the most effective diets that works for me. Done it many times to be able to testify. But ultimately the real secret to losing weight is not giving up. Every diet works as long as you STICK TO IT long enough. Find the one that works for you and keep going
    If you HAVE to keep doing it to lose weight, then maybe it ISN'T the diet you can do for MAINTENANCE.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
    9285851.png

    That's what I was thinking.
  • bubus05
    bubus05 Posts: 121 Member
    Ultimately one has to be in calorie deficit to lose weight, what keto does, based on my experience, is to make you mindful of what you eat. On a keto diet you won't be eating garbage whether you count calories or not, that's already a great start. I was doing strict keto for about a year starting last April, in the beginning just by eating decent food-high fat/protein low carb in my case-without counting anything I was dropping the pounds with ease. Once eating keto became lifestyle I did start counting cals but I already had a pretty good start, was already losing weight. After a year I lost roughly 90 pounds, went from 285 lbs to 195 and as far as keto I am done with it, finished. I still want to lose another 5-10 lbs but these days being mindful with my food is part of my lifestyle, dont need keto anymore. As much as I like keto I dont think it is something you can do forever. Get the pounds off with keto count the calories and once the target weight is achieved slowly get back to eating normal, but always be mindful of what you put in.
  • bubus05
    bubus05 Posts: 121 Member
    edited April 2021
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    bubus05 wrote: »
    Ultimately one has to be in calorie deficit to lose weight, what keto does, based on my experience, is to make you mindful of what you eat.

    Yes, it can, but so can many other ways of eating or simply writing down what you eat or, of course, logging. Some people simply take photos to be mindful.
    On a keto diet you won't be eating garbage whether you count calories or not, that's already a great start.

    I don't know what "garbage" is, and I think it's definitely possible to eat a very nutritious keto diet (although a bit more challenging given how many highly nutrient dense foods have carbs). But it is also quite easy to eat a not great diet doing keto, or -- for many -- to overeat doing keto.
    I was doing strict keto for about a year starting last April, in the beginning just by eating decent food-high fat/protein low carb in my case-without counting anything I was dropping the pounds with ease.

    I think this works for many, but same (for many) just eating a nutrient dense diet or paying attention to what you eat or cutting out snacking or IFing or eating vegan or WFPB. One reason is the mindfulness, and another is limiting what/when you eat so mindless eating of food just because it's there and tasty becomes harder. And the same is, of course, true for simply logging.
    Once eating keto became lifestyle I did start counting cals but I already had a pretty good start, was already losing weight. After a year I lost roughly 90 pounds, went from 285 lbs to 195 and as far as keto I am done with it, finished. I still want to lose another 5-10 lbs but these days being mindful with my food is part of my lifestyle, dont need keto anymore. As much as I like keto I dont think it is something you can do forever. Get the pounds off with keto count the calories and once the target weight is achieved slowly get back to eating normal, but always be mindful of what you put in.

    If this works for you, great, but I see no reason why this makes losing with keto superior. (I like low carbing bc it is consistent with how I often like to eat on reduced cals, and I do think some people feel less hungry doing keto, but keto is just not inherently as a way to lose, and if one doesn't like it, it can make losing harder or prevent one from learning how to maintain, if one plans not to do it long term.)

    Who said anything about keto superior...?
    Garbage food for me means processed food, and I know even the meaning of 'processed' is up to debate since everything seems to be processed one way or another. To rephrase I probably should say one needs to eat fresh food whether it is high carb/fat/protein or low carb/fat/protein.
    It would be foolish off me to generalise, I am writing my own experiences. What works worked for me may or may not work for others.
    Keto did help me to a point, like I said I am done with it. It is maintenance for me at this stage aside of trying to lose another few pounds, but the emphasis is on exercise from now on. One of the great effects of losing big is to be able to exercise like I haven't been able to for nearly two decades, but that's another story.
  • bubus05
    bubus05 Posts: 121 Member
    edited April 2021
    yirara wrote: »
    bubus05 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    bubus05 wrote: »
    Ultimately one has to be in calorie deficit to lose weight, what keto does, based on my experience, is to make you mindful of what you eat.

    Yes, it can, but so can many other ways of eating or simply writing down what you eat or, of course, logging. Some people simply take photos to be mindful.
    On a keto diet you won't be eating garbage whether you count calories or not, that's already a great start.

    I don't know what "garbage" is, and I think it's definitely possible to eat a very nutritious keto diet (although a bit more challenging given how many highly nutrient dense foods have carbs). But it is also quite easy to eat a not great diet doing keto, or -- for many -- to overeat doing keto.
    I was doing strict keto for about a year starting last April, in the beginning just by eating decent food-high fat/protein low carb in my case-without counting anything I was dropping the pounds with ease.

    I think this works for many, but same (for many) just eating a nutrient dense diet or paying attention to what you eat or cutting out snacking or IFing or eating vegan or WFPB. One reason is the mindfulness, and another is limiting what/when you eat so mindless eating of food just because it's there and tasty becomes harder. And the same is, of course, true for simply logging.
    Once eating keto became lifestyle I did start counting cals but I already had a pretty good start, was already losing weight. After a year I lost roughly 90 pounds, went from 285 lbs to 195 and as far as keto I am done with it, finished. I still want to lose another 5-10 lbs but these days being mindful with my food is part of my lifestyle, dont need keto anymore. As much as I like keto I dont think it is something you can do forever. Get the pounds off with keto count the calories and once the target weight is achieved slowly get back to eating normal, but always be mindful of what you put in.

    If this works for you, great, but I see no reason why this makes losing with keto superior. (I like low carbing bc it is consistent with how I often like to eat on reduced cals, and I do think some people feel less hungry doing keto, but keto is just not inherently as a way to lose, and if one doesn't like it, it can make losing harder or prevent one from learning how to maintain, if one plans not to do it long term.)

    Who said anything about keto superior...?
    Garbage food for me means processed food, and I know even the meaning of 'processed' is up to debate since everything seems to be processed one way or another. To rephrase I probably should say one needs to eat fresh food whether it is high carb/fat/protein or low carb/fat/protein.
    It would be foolish off me to generalise, I am writing my own experiences. What works worked for me may or may not work for others.
    Keto did help me to a point, like I said I am done with it. It is maintenance for me at this stage aside of trying to lose another few pounds, but the emphasis is on exercise from now on. One of the great effects of losing big is to be able to exercise like I haven't been able to for nearly two decades, but that's another story.

    There's not much wrong with processed food. Hey, where I live pretty much all meat is heavily processed, often little leftovers glued together, pumped up with fluids to add taste and create a 'succulent' something in the pan. If you did your strict keto here you'd had very little natural food unless you were among the rich people who could go to an independent butcher (though much of the meat there is the same stuff). Seafood is the same. Makes me wonder though how processed the average US supermarket meat really is, with chlorine wash and masses of antibiotics to counteract the lesser health and safety standards compared to European laws.

    I live in Ireland. Thank God -and the EU regulations I guess- food is pretty high quality here, they are damn expensive though . Dont know much about food in the US we hear all kinds of rumours, I have never lived in the USA. But we are going to have the chance to taste your beef, so we'll see, I will give it a try.
  • penguinmama87
    penguinmama87 Posts: 1,155 Member
    edited April 2021
    yirara wrote: »
    bubus05 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    bubus05 wrote: »
    Ultimately one has to be in calorie deficit to lose weight, what keto does, based on my experience, is to make you mindful of what you eat.

    Yes, it can, but so can many other ways of eating or simply writing down what you eat or, of course, logging. Some people simply take photos to be mindful.
    On a keto diet you won't be eating garbage whether you count calories or not, that's already a great start.

    I don't know what "garbage" is, and I think it's definitely possible to eat a very nutritious keto diet (although a bit more challenging given how many highly nutrient dense foods have carbs). But it is also quite easy to eat a not great diet doing keto, or -- for many -- to overeat doing keto.
    I was doing strict keto for about a year starting last April, in the beginning just by eating decent food-high fat/protein low carb in my case-without counting anything I was dropping the pounds with ease.

    I think this works for many, but same (for many) just eating a nutrient dense diet or paying attention to what you eat or cutting out snacking or IFing or eating vegan or WFPB. One reason is the mindfulness, and another is limiting what/when you eat so mindless eating of food just because it's there and tasty becomes harder. And the same is, of course, true for simply logging.
    Once eating keto became lifestyle I did start counting cals but I already had a pretty good start, was already losing weight. After a year I lost roughly 90 pounds, went from 285 lbs to 195 and as far as keto I am done with it, finished. I still want to lose another 5-10 lbs but these days being mindful with my food is part of my lifestyle, dont need keto anymore. As much as I like keto I dont think it is something you can do forever. Get the pounds off with keto count the calories and once the target weight is achieved slowly get back to eating normal, but always be mindful of what you put in.

    If this works for you, great, but I see no reason why this makes losing with keto superior. (I like low carbing bc it is consistent with how I often like to eat on reduced cals, and I do think some people feel less hungry doing keto, but keto is just not inherently as a way to lose, and if one doesn't like it, it can make losing harder or prevent one from learning how to maintain, if one plans not to do it long term.)

    Who said anything about keto superior...?
    Garbage food for me means processed food, and I know even the meaning of 'processed' is up to debate since everything seems to be processed one way or another. To rephrase I probably should say one needs to eat fresh food whether it is high carb/fat/protein or low carb/fat/protein.
    It would be foolish off me to generalise, I am writing my own experiences. What works worked for me may or may not work for others.
    Keto did help me to a point, like I said I am done with it. It is maintenance for me at this stage aside of trying to lose another few pounds, but the emphasis is on exercise from now on. One of the great effects of losing big is to be able to exercise like I haven't been able to for nearly two decades, but that's another story.

    There's not much wrong with processed food. Hey, where I live pretty much all meat is heavily processed, often little leftovers glued together, pumped up with fluids to add taste and create a 'succulent' something in the pan. If you did your strict keto here you'd had very little natural food unless you were among the rich people who could go to an independent butcher (though much of the meat there is the same stuff). Seafood is the same. Makes me wonder though how processed the average US supermarket meat really is, with chlorine wash and masses of antibiotics to counteract the lesser health and safety standards compared to European laws.

    It can take a little digging, and I'm sure it's dependent on where you are, but my family actually buys almost all of our meat direct from local farms and we pay about supermarket price per pound, even taking into account what's lost since we pay by hanging weight. It does require significant planning in our budget and a place to store the meat (since we're buying a quarter or half animal at a time), but I was pleasantly surprised that we could do it. Our grocery budget is actually still frugal by USDA metrics for a family of our size. I also have the advantage (now) of the ability to prepare and use all of what we get, including the "weird parts."

    I still think your point is well taken, but if a person *wanted* to buy meat or any other local farm product but hasn't bothered to look because of the assumption that it will definitely be too expensive....it might not be. On a quick search I find several places around here that charge double what we pay, probably because they can and because of the clientele they cater to who are willing to pay prestige prices. We're not. But it still works for us and we're very happy to be able to do it. We belong to a neighborhood group where several smaller families often go in together on packages and split them, too, so it's not just something that big families can do.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    bubus05 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    bubus05 wrote: »
    Ultimately one has to be in calorie deficit to lose weight, what keto does, based on my experience, is to make you mindful of what you eat.

    Yes, it can, but so can many other ways of eating or simply writing down what you eat or, of course, logging. Some people simply take photos to be mindful.
    On a keto diet you won't be eating garbage whether you count calories or not, that's already a great start.

    I don't know what "garbage" is, and I think it's definitely possible to eat a very nutritious keto diet (although a bit more challenging given how many highly nutrient dense foods have carbs). But it is also quite easy to eat a not great diet doing keto, or -- for many -- to overeat doing keto.
    I was doing strict keto for about a year starting last April, in the beginning just by eating decent food-high fat/protein low carb in my case-without counting anything I was dropping the pounds with ease.

    I think this works for many, but same (for many) just eating a nutrient dense diet or paying attention to what you eat or cutting out snacking or IFing or eating vegan or WFPB. One reason is the mindfulness, and another is limiting what/when you eat so mindless eating of food just because it's there and tasty becomes harder. And the same is, of course, true for simply logging.
    Once eating keto became lifestyle I did start counting cals but I already had a pretty good start, was already losing weight. After a year I lost roughly 90 pounds, went from 285 lbs to 195 and as far as keto I am done with it, finished. I still want to lose another 5-10 lbs but these days being mindful with my food is part of my lifestyle, dont need keto anymore. As much as I like keto I dont think it is something you can do forever. Get the pounds off with keto count the calories and once the target weight is achieved slowly get back to eating normal, but always be mindful of what you put in.

    If this works for you, great, but I see no reason why this makes losing with keto superior. (I like low carbing bc it is consistent with how I often like to eat on reduced cals, and I do think some people feel less hungry doing keto, but keto is just not inherently as a way to lose, and if one doesn't like it, it can make losing harder or prevent one from learning how to maintain, if one plans not to do it long term.)

    Who said anything about keto superior...?
    Garbage food for me means processed food, and I know even the meaning of 'processed' is up to debate since everything seems to be processed one way or another. To rephrase I probably should say one needs to eat fresh food whether it is high carb/fat/protein or low carb/fat/protein.
    It would be foolish off me to generalise, I am writing my own experiences. What works worked for me may or may not work for others.
    Keto did help me to a point, like I said I am done with it. It is maintenance for me at this stage aside of trying to lose another few pounds, but the emphasis is on exercise from now on. One of the great effects of losing big is to be able to exercise like I haven't been able to for nearly two decades, but that's another story.

    People can eat processed food on keto and many people choose to. They just choose processed foods within the parameters of their macro goals.

    So if by "garbage," you mean "processed food," then the statement "On a keto diet you won't be eating garbage" isn't accurate. It may be true that YOU PERSONALLY have eliminated processed foods, but that's a whole different statement.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    edited April 2021
    bubus05 wrote: »
    [Garbage food for me means processed food, and I know even the meaning of 'processed' is up to debate since everything seems to be processed one way or another. To rephrase I probably should say one needs to eat fresh food whether it is high carb/fat/protein or low carb/fat/protein.

    I think you mean basically cooking mostly from scratch (no big reason to prefer fresh to frozen, and of course staples like olive oil are processed, among other ingredients, and I think we agree on that so I'll not nitpick). But even cooking from scratch doesn't mean lower cal (although for me it makes it much easier to be mindful). For example, there are actually a ton of "keto dessert" type foods these days, like fat bombs, that I think basically take the place of other high cal options for some, and of course there's cheese, but more to the point there are increasingly tons of snack and dessert foods one can buy at the store that are marketed as keto-friendly. (Perhaps that latter trend hasn't made it to Ireland yet, but if not I expect it will. It's certainly the case in the US.)

    Anyway, that's why I don't agree that one needs to eat "unprocessed" to do keto or that it effectively cuts out dessert type foods or pre made snack foods, even, or of course other high cal snacky stuff like pepperoni or cheese, etc. I think it's more that one tends to be more mindful when one starts trying to lose, especially if one is dramatically changing one's eating, and of course if the foods you personally used to mindlessly eat or overeat happen to be carby, that means the strict carb limits effectively take them off the table and it takes a while to adjust to the other options.
    It would be foolish off me to generalise, I am writing my own experiences. What works worked for me may or may not work for others.
    Keto did help me to a point, like I said I am done with it. It is maintenance for me at this stage aside of trying to lose another few pounds, but the emphasis is on exercise from now on. One of the great effects of losing big is to be able to exercise like I haven't been able to for nearly two decades, but that's another story.

    Okay, that's great! I did misread you somewhat to be saying keto is the best way to lose for anyone.
  • lemurcat2
    lemurcat2 Posts: 7,885 Member
    edited April 2021
    bubus05 wrote: »
    yirara wrote: »
    bubus05 wrote: »
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    bubus05 wrote: »
    Ultimately one has to be in calorie deficit to lose weight, what keto does, based on my experience, is to make you mindful of what you eat.

    Yes, it can, but so can many other ways of eating or simply writing down what you eat or, of course, logging. Some people simply take photos to be mindful.
    On a keto diet you won't be eating garbage whether you count calories or not, that's already a great start.

    I don't know what "garbage" is, and I think it's definitely possible to eat a very nutritious keto diet (although a bit more challenging given how many highly nutrient dense foods have carbs). But it is also quite easy to eat a not great diet doing keto, or -- for many -- to overeat doing keto.
    I was doing strict keto for about a year starting last April, in the beginning just by eating decent food-high fat/protein low carb in my case-without counting anything I was dropping the pounds with ease.

    I think this works for many, but same (for many) just eating a nutrient dense diet or paying attention to what you eat or cutting out snacking or IFing or eating vegan or WFPB. One reason is the mindfulness, and another is limiting what/when you eat so mindless eating of food just because it's there and tasty becomes harder. And the same is, of course, true for simply logging.
    Once eating keto became lifestyle I did start counting cals but I already had a pretty good start, was already losing weight. After a year I lost roughly 90 pounds, went from 285 lbs to 195 and as far as keto I am done with it, finished. I still want to lose another 5-10 lbs but these days being mindful with my food is part of my lifestyle, dont need keto anymore. As much as I like keto I dont think it is something you can do forever. Get the pounds off with keto count the calories and once the target weight is achieved slowly get back to eating normal, but always be mindful of what you put in.

    If this works for you, great, but I see no reason why this makes losing with keto superior. (I like low carbing bc it is consistent with how I often like to eat on reduced cals, and I do think some people feel less hungry doing keto, but keto is just not inherently as a way to lose, and if one doesn't like it, it can make losing harder or prevent one from learning how to maintain, if one plans not to do it long term.)

    Who said anything about keto superior...?
    Garbage food for me means processed food, and I know even the meaning of 'processed' is up to debate since everything seems to be processed one way or another. To rephrase I probably should say one needs to eat fresh food whether it is high carb/fat/protein or low carb/fat/protein.
    It would be foolish off me to generalise, I am writing my own experiences. What works worked for me may or may not work for others.
    Keto did help me to a point, like I said I am done with it. It is maintenance for me at this stage aside of trying to lose another few pounds, but the emphasis is on exercise from now on. One of the great effects of losing big is to be able to exercise like I haven't been able to for nearly two decades, but that's another story.

    There's not much wrong with processed food. Hey, where I live pretty much all meat is heavily processed, often little leftovers glued together, pumped up with fluids to add taste and create a 'succulent' something in the pan. If you did your strict keto here you'd had very little natural food unless you were among the rich people who could go to an independent butcher (though much of the meat there is the same stuff). Seafood is the same. Makes me wonder though how processed the average US supermarket meat really is, with chlorine wash and masses of antibiotics to counteract the lesser health and safety standards compared to European laws.

    I live in Ireland. Thank God -and the EU regulations I guess- food is pretty high quality here, they are damn expensive though . Dont know much about food in the US we hear all kinds of rumours, I have never lived in the USA. But we are going to have the chance to taste your beef, so we'll see, I will give it a try.

    yirara doesn't live in the US. There's plenty of really high quality meat in the US, and lots of options for people who prefer to avoid certain things.

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