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Just that little "extra" helps bring success?
ninerbuff
Posts: 49,027 Member
in Debate Club
I'm of the philosophy that it's always about behavior that has us where we are, where we may end up being, or our probable downfall for some things.
I've mentioned before that there are people who'll rerack a weight in any open spot on a weight tree rather than taking that "extra step" to actually put it on the right arm it belongs on. While they may have reracked the weight, could just NOT doing that extra little bit of effort be the reason that they may not be reaching their ultimate goal? IMO, yes. Yes I know it sounds so petty, but I look at if from the point of view that that little "extra" is a behavioral pattern not only in the gym, but outside of it. For instance, if trying to lose weight, but is not willing enough to take the extra time to weigh their food may be the difference to getting down to a lower body fat %. Or not finishing a cardio timed workout to it's full extent. Or relaxing their effort when 90% of the work is done rather than 100%.
If you ask most successful people (at anything they are successful in) what is the reason they are more successful than others, the common thing is that they usually go BEYOND what normal people do to achieve something. Be it they work those extra hours, put in extra practice, study a little longer, etc.
That's why I believe that IF you're really trying to reach a goal you've never done or have failed at before, you need to put in that little "extra" so that you do become successful.
I do better than almost all my peers at attaining clientele because I spend open time on the gym floor talking to more people rather than staying behind the desk and shooting the breeze with a coworker. And they've asked before how I do it and have tried to encourage them as well. But you can only offer. It's up to the person to decide if they are willing to do the "extra" needed to help bring success.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I've mentioned before that there are people who'll rerack a weight in any open spot on a weight tree rather than taking that "extra step" to actually put it on the right arm it belongs on. While they may have reracked the weight, could just NOT doing that extra little bit of effort be the reason that they may not be reaching their ultimate goal? IMO, yes. Yes I know it sounds so petty, but I look at if from the point of view that that little "extra" is a behavioral pattern not only in the gym, but outside of it. For instance, if trying to lose weight, but is not willing enough to take the extra time to weigh their food may be the difference to getting down to a lower body fat %. Or not finishing a cardio timed workout to it's full extent. Or relaxing their effort when 90% of the work is done rather than 100%.
If you ask most successful people (at anything they are successful in) what is the reason they are more successful than others, the common thing is that they usually go BEYOND what normal people do to achieve something. Be it they work those extra hours, put in extra practice, study a little longer, etc.
That's why I believe that IF you're really trying to reach a goal you've never done or have failed at before, you need to put in that little "extra" so that you do become successful.
I do better than almost all my peers at attaining clientele because I spend open time on the gym floor talking to more people rather than staying behind the desk and shooting the breeze with a coworker. And they've asked before how I do it and have tried to encourage them as well. But you can only offer. It's up to the person to decide if they are willing to do the "extra" needed to help bring success.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
7
Replies
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This sounds like nice pull yourself by the bootstraps rhetoric of if only you work hard enough you'll succeed. But a lot of it is just up to luck. I'm not of the belief that everything is predetermined but we don't have 100% freedom and control over the outcomes.
I've watched people work themselves to death and not get successful and watched people be born into wealth and fly through life with minimal effort. I would be really angry if someone said the former didn't work hard enough. Unless you mean the little "extra" is luck, which it doesn't sound like reading what you wrote.
It sounds to me like you want two things: for people to recognise that you're doing a good job because you worked for it; and either understanding why some people don't seem able to reach their goals or a reason to look down on people who fail. I'd like to think you're just seeking understanding but idk you so you might be an *kitten*.
Based on what I know about you from reading your posts, you do work hard and you achieved some great things. That's great and something to be proud of.
But I don't think you can take this singular experience "I worked hard and succeeded" and extrapolate it to the rest of the world. We don't live in a meritocracy. It's a reality that some people have better chances than others. That's luck. You can use the luck and grab opportunities and thus succeed but there is definitely also someone out there who worked exactly as hard as you did and is as good but didn't make it because they didn't have the same opportunities.
Personally I would go as far as to say that even your personality and amount of determination and will power are determined by luck. You can't choose your genetic makeup/parents or upbringing/environment so you gotta work with what you have. Some people do their best and get nowhere. If we place too much emphasis on personal responsibility without accounting for these real obstacles people face, we're failing people who could be successful with a little extra help.
And yes, it's really annoying when people don't put the equipment back in the right place.12 -
bojaantje3822 wrote: »This sounds like nice pull yourself by the bootstraps rhetoric of if only you work hard enough you'll succeed. But a lot of it is just up to luck. I'm not of the belief that everything is predetermined but we don't have 100% freedom and control over the outcomes.
I've watched people work themselves to death and not get successful and watched people be born into wealth and fly through life with minimal effort. I would be really angry if someone said the former didn't work hard enough. Unless you mean the little "extra" is luck, which it doesn't sound like reading what you wrote.
It sounds to me like you want two things: for people to recognise that you're doing a good job because you worked for it; and either understanding why some people don't seem able to reach their goals or a reason to look down on people who fail. I'd like to think you're just seeking understanding but idk you so you might be an *kitten*.
Based on what I know about you from reading your posts, you do work hard and you achieved some great things. That's great and something to be proud of.
But I don't think you can take this singular experience "I worked hard and succeeded" and extrapolate it to the rest of the world. We don't live in a meritocracy. It's a reality that some people have better chances than others. That's luck. You can use the luck and grab opportunities and thus succeed but there is definitely also someone out there who worked exactly as hard as you did and is as good but didn't make it because they didn't have the same opportunities.
Personally I would go as far as to say that even your personality and amount of determination and will power are determined by luck. You can't choose your genetic makeup/parents or upbringing/environment so you gotta work with what you have. Some people do their best and get nowhere. If we place too much emphasis on personal responsibility without accounting for these real obstacles people face, we're failing people who could be successful with a little extra help.
And yes, it's really annoying when people don't put the equipment back in the right place.
Seriously???? If it's all based on the luck of the draw, why do you even bother getting out of bed in the morning?? After all, your actions will not affect the outcome, so why bother?
As for what niner is saying, I think he has hit the nail on the head - some people skate thru life doing the minimum that they have to do to get by and some people embrace life with gusto and vigor and do everything they can to get more out of it.
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I'm of the philosophy that it's always about behavior that has us where we are, where we may end up being, or our probable downfall for some things.
The idea that 'we are in control of our destinies' seems to me to be a very American way of thinking. Which is a great thing when it empowers people to achieve their goals. But it has a horrible flip side, implying that those who don't only have themselves to blame.
There is behavior, but also: circumstances, luck, personal talent (or lack thereof), knowledge (or lack thereof)...
For example:
I remember at college that I had better results than one of my fellow students. He, who had been revising his course material studiously every week, had lower (and insufficient for some subjects) grades than me, who hadn't revised at all during the year and just crammed everything in the few weeks preceding exams. Simply because my brain happens to process information more efficiently than him. Really not a case of him not doing 'that little bit extra'.If you ask most successful people (at anything they are successful in) what is the reason they are more successful than others, the common thing is that they usually go BEYOND what normal people do to achieve something. Be it they work those extra hours, put in extra practice, study a little longer, etc.
So success = being more successful than others? Perhaps not every one feels the need to be better than others to succeed. And therefore doesn't necessarily feel the need to do 'that little extra'. Sometimes good is good enough and it doesn't need to be 'great' or 'the best'. That doesn't mean those people should be looked down at. They may have different priorities than you.
(We're not talking about the reracking issue here, that's just a matter of being selfish imho)
I'm pretty sure some successful people will also mention 'I was lucky' (that someone gave them an opportunity, for example).
My success in weight loss? I'd love to attribute it to my behavior/doing something 'extra'. But my behavior was also determined by my circumstances. Sure, I'm very precise in my logging, in my analysis of my own data to adjust my strategy,... But also lucky enough to not have hurdles like a busy family life, health issues,... and lucky enough to have enough money and room for a home gym,... So while it took consistency, it really wasn't anything 'extra' effort-wise compared to others trying to lose weight (some successfully and some unsuccessfully).
Also, this wasn't my first attempt at losing weight, and the amount of effort was the same previous times, but I simply didn't have the right tool/knowledge (apparently counting calories was the magic ingredient that was missing).
Side note, but this topic reminds me of a psychology course I took:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
I'd also like to add that behavior in one domain doesn't mean you can generalize that to the rest of their lives. People really aren't that simple or black/white. I could list all the things I do 'with that little extra' but at the same time give you a list of things where I'm sure I could put in more effort but don't.8 -
While genetics may make it easier in some things (especially in athletics and sports), there isn't enough to show me that there isn't anyone who COULDN'T overall improve well beyond what they expect of themselves just by luck. As for upbring and environment, I will say that those that are affected by lack of opportunities will likely have to work harder than the average person, but again that behavior can be attained. IMO, many people who aren't as fortunate just keep getting told that so they end up believing it. And it may take a full 180 to help them believe otherwise.bojaantje3822 wrote: »Personally I would go as far as to say that even your personality and amount of determination and will power are determined by luck. You can't choose your genetic makeup/parents or upbringing/environment so you gotta work with what you have. Some people do their best and get nowhere. If we place too much emphasis on personal responsibility without accounting for these real obstacles people face, we're failing people who could be successful with a little extra help.
And yes, it's really annoying when people don't put the equipment back in the right place.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Being from a family that was raised poor in the Philippines, I won't deny that there are obstacles that can deter people from achieving their overall goals, however I don't believe that people are just stuck in a bad situation if they have freedom to pursue better.I'm of the philosophy that it's always about behavior that has us where we are, where we may end up being, or our probable downfall for some things.
The idea that 'we are in control of our destinies' seems to me to be a very American way of thinking. Which is a great thing when it empowers people to achieve their goals. But it has a horrible flip side, implying that those who don't only have themselves to blame.
There is behavior, but also: circumstances, luck, personal talent (or lack thereof), knowledge (or lack thereof)...
I wasn't comparing success against others, just their success to being a better them on a goal they may set for themselves. People can work as hard as they want sometimes and not achieve brilliant status or become a millionaire, but can they exceed what they may have thought what they couldn't?For example:
I remember at college that I had better results than one of my fellow students. He, who had been revising his course material studiously every week, had lower (and insufficient for some subjects) grades than me, who hadn't revised at all during the year and just crammed everything in the few weeks preceding exams. Simply because my brain happens to process information more efficiently than him. Really not a case of him not doing 'that little bit extra'.
I was speaking of being successful in one's endeavors because they are willing to do that extra. The person that achieves 6 pack abs will usually work harder at it with discipline in diet and exercise than one that doesn't have them (yes everyone can get visible defined abs if they are willing to do what it takes to attain them).So success = being more successful than others? Perhaps not every one feels the need to be better than others to succeed. And therefore doesn't necessarily feel the need to do 'that little extra'. Sometimes good is good enough and it doesn't need to be 'great' or 'the best'. That doesn't mean those people should be looked down at. They may have different priorities than you.
(We're not talking about the reracking issue here, that's just a matter of being selfish imho)
Oh there are lots of "successful" people out there with silver spoons born in their mouths. I was referring to those that actually had to work to attain it. That's why I said "most".I'm pretty sure some successful people will also mention 'I was lucky' (that someone gave them an opportunity, for example).
I don't buy circumstances as an excuse. But that's just me. Having worked with so many clients, I don't believe there isn't a way people CAN'T make time for themselves to improve their health. Sorry.A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness TrainerMy success in weight loss? I'd love to attribute it to my behavior/doing something 'extra'. But my behavior was also determined by my circumstances. Sure, I'm very precise in my logging, in my analysis of my own data to adjust my strategy,... But also lucky enough to not have hurdles like a busy family life, health issues,... and lucky enough to have enough money and room for a home gym,... So while it took consistency, it really wasn't anything 'extra' effort-wise compared to others trying to lose weight (some successfully and some unsuccessfully).
Also, this wasn't my first attempt at losing weight, and the amount of effort was the same previous times, but I simply didn't have the right tool/knowledge (apparently counting calories was the magic ingredient that was missing).
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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@ninerbuff I don't disagree that some people could work harder and/or achieve more than they think they could. I'm just saying trying harder isn't the only thing that matters and isn't going to make everyone's life better. I actually really like how @Lietchi explained it. Because of it I realised I was arguing for something more like the Dutch verzorgingsstaat than the American dream.
I still think it's great that you're trying to help people reach their goals and have found something that could have some impact. It's just not gonna change everyone's lives dramatically. There are too many other factors. Not being able to give 100% of your energy 100% of the time is not a personal failure. If a system requires it for you to succeed, the system is at fault. But yeah, I agree that a defeatist mindset is not the way to go.
@ccrdragon I can't believe I specifically went out of my way to explain I don't believe in those fatalistic, nihilistic nothing matters ideas and was still misunderstood. This is a literal quote: "I'm not of the belief that everything is predetermined but we don't have 100% freedom and control over the outcomes." The irony4 -
Oh, no one will always give 100%. Even myself included. Thanks for your input. I like reading others opinions cause it could help me form new ones.bojaantje3822 wrote: »@ninerbuff I don't disagree that some people could work harder and/or achieve more than they think they could. I'm just saying trying harder isn't the only thing that matters and isn't going to make everyone's life better. I actually really like how @Lietchi explained it. Because of it I realised I was arguing for something more like the Dutch verzorgingsstaat than the American dream.
I still think it's great that you're trying to help people reach their goals and have found something that could have some impact. It's just not gonna change everyone's lives dramatically. There are too many other factors. Not being able to give 100% of your energy 100% of the time is not a personal failure. If a system requires it for you to succeed, the system is at fault. But yeah, I agree that a defeatist mindset is not the way to go.
@ccrdragon I can't believe I specifically went out of my way to explain I don't believe in those fatalistic, nihilistic nothing matters ideas and was still misunderstood. This is a literal quote: "I'm not of the belief that everything is predetermined but we don't have 100% freedom and control over the outcomes." The irony
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Totally, it's fascinating to see written out how others think and how they reached those conclusions. Definitely feel like I understand you better now1
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I think this is not the first time you've posted about how people not properly re-racking weights generalizes to their overall character and approach to life, thus relates to overall life success?
I don't think it's that simple. I agree with some of those above about the role of luck and circumstance in life (not as a 100% determiner of outcomes, but a factor of varying impact in varied cases).
In addition, I think there's potentially "domain specificity" in people's dedication, effort, and (sometimes) even the ability to see that there's a there there. I don't think life success is all one thing, or - frankly - that we're individually in a good position to judge others' success, at least across quite a range of effectiveness. (Some forms/degrees of complete failure make themselves pretty obvious, though.)
I think I'm effective, competent and hardworking as a matter of character. However there are domains I care less about in life, and I can't maximize my effort and commitment in every single aspect of life: There are unavoidable limits on time and energy, so every single one of us has to set priorities for that time and energy. My priorities will be different from other people's - potentially even laughably or appallingly sub-par, in their view, in certain domains.
I would rerack weights properly in a public gym or shared space, out of social responsibility, because that's important to me. But I'm not maximum-tidy in areas that are mine alone. It's optional to me, so I tend to be an untidy pack rat (but not disorganized, a distinction tidy people often don't viscerally understand, IME). I think that people who put a lower priority on social responsibility are kinda jerks, but that's judgement from my personal value system. It would be fun to think they're "less successful" in some grand sense, but I can't persuade myself that's true.
As another example: Some other women my own age have criticized me as having "let myself go", not making the right level of effort to look youthful and pretty, because I don't dye my gray hair, wear make-up, get mani-pedis, have reconstruction surgery (or wear breast prostheses) post mastectomies, have surgery/botox or use expensive potions to minimize my wrinkles, or dress with great attention to being stylish (though I try to look respectable, and of course be clean). So, I'm not successful, in that domain, as a result of arguably sub-par effort.
Really, IMO it's that my definition of "taking care of myself " (vs. "letting myself go") prioritizes things that are less important to them than to me, and the things that they think show poor effort/character in me aren't important to me. (What matters to me: I'm now at a healthy weight, have been fitter than average for my demographic for 20+ years, and get quite good nutrition routinely. To some of the people who have made such judgmental comments about me, I'm quite certain that some of those domains are near-invisible, as realistic areas for them to apply effort and realize rewards. At minimum, they've 'got no time for that'. For clarity: I don't think that makes them "unsuccessful" or of poor character, it just makes them different from me, and that's OK.)
I do think people ideally would be clear-eyed about their values and choices. If some other trainers don't have as successful a practice as you do because they spend time/energy on peer interaction vs. creating business, then they would ideally recognize that they're making a choice to prioritize social relationships over business development. Many times, people are blind to that, I admit - and some people do IMO think they should have all the benefits across domains, without putting in the effort across all domains.
I do think that if I claim I want to accomplish some goal, and don't put in the effort, I'm telling myself fairy tales. If I wanted the thing, I'd work for it. I try not to lie to myself in that way. Those fairy tales are disempowering, if nothing else. Absent truly insurmountable obstacles, I can reach goals . . . but they require work. (As an aside, it gets under my skin when I see people tell artists or craftspeople "you're so talented: I could never do that" . . . ! No. Talent does have a role, but generally those artists/craftspeople have put in huge amounts of work over long time period to develop skills from those talents. Average-talent people can achieve more than they believe, but there's work required from anyone.)
Choices (including where and whether to apply effort) do have consequences. Some people make low effort in many domains, some work for OK-ness but not greatness in a wider range, some focus intensely on some single domain and are pretty dysfunctional in most others (the "obsessed mono-maniacal eccentric genius" kind of thing). Sub-par effort outcomes in one domain don't necessarily predict effort or outcomes in others.
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Always love to hear your POV Ann on subjects. You're so good a conveying your opinions. Thanks for your input.I think this is not the first time you've posted about how people not properly re-racking weights generalizes to their overall character and approach to life, thus relates to overall life success?
I don't think it's that simple. I agree with some of those above about the role of luck and circumstance in life (not as a 100% determiner of outcomes, but a factor of varying impact in varied cases).
In addition, I think there's potentially "domain specificity" in people's dedication, effort, and (sometimes) even the ability to see that there's a there there. I don't think life success is all one thing, or - frankly - that we're individually in a good position to judge others' success, at least across quite a range of effectiveness. (Some forms/degrees of complete failure make themselves pretty obvious, though.)
I think I'm effective, competent and hardworking as a matter of character. However there are domains I care less about in life, and I can't maximize my effort and commitment in every single aspect of life: There are unavoidable limits on time and energy, so every single one of us has to set priorities for that time and energy. My priorities will be different from other people's - potentially even laughably or appallingly sub-par, in their view, in certain domains.
I would rerack weights properly in a public gym or shared space, out of social responsibility, because that's important to me. But I'm not maximum-tidy in areas that are mine alone. It's optional to me, so I tend to be an untidy pack rat (but not disorganized, a distinction tidy people often don't viscerally understand, IME). I think that people who put a lower priority on social responsibility are kinda jerks, but that's judgement from my personal value system. It would be fun to think they're "less successful" in some grand sense, but I can't persuade myself that's true.
As another example: Some other women my own age have criticized me as having "let myself go", not making the right level of effort to look youthful and pretty, because I don't dye my gray hair, wear make-up, get mani-pedis, have reconstruction surgery (or wear breast prostheses) post mastectomies, have surgery/botox or use expensive potions to minimize my wrinkles, or dress with great attention to being stylish (though I try to look respectable, and of course be clean). So, I'm not successful, in that domain, as a result of arguably sub-par effort.
Really, IMO it's that my definition of "taking care of myself " (vs. "letting myself go") prioritizes things that are less important to them than to me, and the things that they think show poor effort/character in me aren't important to me. (What matters to me: I'm now at a healthy weight, have been fitter than average for my demographic for 20+ years, and get quite good nutrition routinely. To some of the people who have made such judgmental comments about me, I'm quite certain that some of those domains are near-invisible, as realistic areas for them to apply effort and realize rewards. At minimum, they've 'got no time for that'. For clarity: I don't think that makes them "unsuccessful" or of poor character, it just makes them different from me, and that's OK.)
I do think people ideally would be clear-eyed about their values and choices. If some other trainers don't have as successful a practice as you do because they spend time/energy on peer interaction vs. creating business, then they would ideally recognize that they're making a choice to prioritize social relationships over business development. Many times, people are blind to that, I admit - and some people do IMO think they should have all the benefits across domains, without putting in the effort across all domains.
I do think that if I claim I want to accomplish some goal, and don't put in the effort, I'm telling myself fairy tales. If I wanted the thing, I'd work for it. I try not to lie to myself in that way. Those fairy tales are disempowering, if nothing else. Absent truly insurmountable obstacles, I can reach goals . . . but they require work. (As an aside, it gets under my skin when I see people tell artists or craftspeople "you're so talented: I could never do that" . . . ! No. Talent does have a role, but generally those artists/craftspeople have put in huge amounts of work over long time period to develop skills from those talents. Average-talent people can achieve more than they believe, but there's work required from anyone.)
Choices (including where and whether to apply effort) do have consequences. Some people make low effort in many domains, some work for OK-ness but not greatness in a wider range, some focus intensely on some single domain and are pretty dysfunctional in most others (the "obsessed mono-maniacal eccentric genius" kind of thing). Sub-par effort outcomes in one domain don't necessarily predict effort or outcomes in others.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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@ninerbuff There are entrepreneurs and piles of manure and it takes wisdom to know the difference. I've known some who've attended every program and instructional seminar so they can create a program that catches on like wildfire. Thirty years later, they're still kicking different cans down the road.
There are those who are really well-suited with complimentary backgrounds and innate abilities to make a crazy fever-dream work. Right-time-right-place with the gift of perfect timing. Connection is everything.
Humans like to mentally connect everything we do. We are bent on survival and it's part of our ancient past. We learn from our successes, what times are best to wander on down to the river so we can catch a fish. The more experience - the more we connect valid patterns for success.
I'm proud of you for creating an incredibly effective program. It's not easy to recreate that success because they don't have your social psychology or human physiology. They don't have your personality.
Then there's such a thing as favor, favor, favor. That's not easily replicated because you can't get it out of a book or seminar.
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I agree to an extent. Not all people are suited for certain types of jobs or careers even if they do work their hardest at it. Even the best bodybuilders who put in the time, eating, rest, etc. lose because they don't have the best symmetry or shape than their peers. My biggest point overall is that many times people just don't reach their full potential because they miss putting in that little "extra" that could put them over the top of their expectations. It happens a lot in life and I'm sure many here have experienced it at one time or another.Hiawassee88 wrote: »@ninerbuff There are entrepreneurs and piles of manure and it takes wisdom to know the difference. I've known some who've attended every program and instructional seminar so they can create a program that catches on like wildfire. Thirty years later, they're still kicking different cans down the road.
There are those who are really well-suited with complimentary backgrounds and innate abilities to make a crazy fever-dream work. Right-time-right-place with the gift of perfect timing. Connection is everything.
Humans like to mentally connect everything we do. We are bent on survival and it's part of our ancient past. We learn from our successes, what times are best to wander on down to the river so we can catch a fish. The more experience - the more we connect valid patterns for success.
I'm proud of you for creating an incredibly effective program. It's not easy to recreate that success because they don't have your social psychology or human physiology. They don't have your personality.
Then there's such a thing as favor, favor, favor. That's not easily replicated because you can't get it out of a book or seminar.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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@ninerbuff That's where you come in and why we're going to pay you. Who are we, when you're not looking. I'm sure you know those who fall right back into their old repeated patterns and start coasting. I like flying by the seat of my pants but it's great to have reminders that good habits are far more rewarding.0
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Some people are more successful because they do extra, but some of us are more successful because we've figured out how to efficiently get more results with less effort.
What it comes down to isn't doing more or less, it's allocating resources. Most people don't fail to "do more" because they are lazy, it's because their resources are allocated elsewhere.
It's not so much about effort as priorities. Many people try to pile a new thing like exercise and/or weight-loss onto their already over-burdened lives, and think that they'll magically manage to cram it in because they really, really want to.
If desperately wanting to lose weight or get healthy actually worked, no one would be obese or unfit. But that's not how it works.
To give a little extra to a new priority, the entire supply of available capacity and resources needs to reshuffle in order to fit that new priority. If not, then the transient intense motivation will fade. The normal order of things will take over, and the habit will never get a chance to become part of the "normal."
Making something a priority doesn't mean putting it at the top of the list of things you feel you need to do *on top of* all of the other things you feel you have to do.
If something is really a priority, it has to be as or more important than everything else that you already do on a day-to-day basis.
Because when things get hard, something is going to fall off, and if health habits are just tacked-on, they'll be the first to fall. For health habits to be resilient, something else needs to be the habit that falls off first.
Now if people want to expand their capacity, then that's where efficiency comes in.
In my professional world I was well known for crushing my peers in terms of performance, while working substantially fewer hours. Not everyone succeeds by doing more, some of us succeed by getting more out of what we do. I'm personally motivated to be as lazy as humanly possible in figuring out how to do things.
But working on efficiency has to be a priority as that in and of itself requires resources.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to the fact that everyone has limited resources, and how they are managed is what determines outcomes.7 -
While I believe "working smarter and not harder" will work with many scenarios, it doesn't always apply because like you said it depends on certain things. If two individuals had the same exact resources and ability, the one that works a little harder will usually surpass the other. But what you say about priority does ring true. Thing is in our country (USA) many people prioritize so much more over their health until it's much too late. And the reality is without decent health, none of the other things they think are a priority will matter as much if they are dealing with health issues and it causes them to NOT be able to work efficiently or care for loved ones. I hear all the time when I get clients that come in an at 40, 50, 60+ needing to fix themselves because of pain or health issues due to NOT making it a priority sooner. So maybe it comes down to instituting better while we're young, but so many of todays youngsters make social media a priority over learning better health to start taking themselves. And I put it on the parents as well. Behavior first is learned and happens at home and I applaud parents that are great examples of better health/exercise habits and teaching the importance of it to their kids even though they have to still work, take care of their home, and cater to kids activities while making time to fit in their own regimens of exercise/diet.Some people are more successful because they do extra, but some of us are more successful because we've figured out how to efficiently get more results with less effort.
What it comes down to isn't doing more or less, it's allocating resources. Most people don't fail to "do more" because they are lazy, it's because their resources are allocated elsewhere.
It's not so much about effort as priorities. Many people try to pile a new thing like exercise and/or weight-loss onto their already over-burdened lives, and think that they'll magically manage to cram it in because they really, really want to.
If desperately wanting to lose weight or get healthy actually worked, no one would be obese or unfit. But that's not how it works.
To give a little extra to a new priority, the entire supply of available capacity and resources needs to reshuffle in order to fit that new priority. If not, then the transient intense motivation will fade. The normal order of things will take over, and the habit will never get a chance to become part of the "normal."
Making something a priority doesn't mean putting it at the top of the list of things you feel you need to do *on top of* all of the other things you feel you have to do.
If something is really a priority, it has to be as or more important than everything else that you already do on a day-to-day basis.
Because when things get hard, something is going to fall off, and if health habits are just tacked-on, they'll be the first to fall. For health habits to be resilient, something else needs to be the habit that falls off first.
Now if people want to expand their capacity, then that's where efficiency comes in.
In my professional world I was well known for crushing my peers in terms of performance, while working substantially fewer hours. Not everyone succeeds by doing more, some of us succeed by getting more out of what we do. I'm personally motivated to be as lazy as humanly possible in figuring out how to do things.
But working on efficiency has to be a priority as that in and of itself requires resources.
At the end of the day, it all comes down to the fact that everyone has limited resources, and how they are managed is what determines outcomes.
Is it harder to do? Yep no doubt. Does it take away from possible other things they may rather be doing? Sure. But IMO, it should be a main priority.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
While I believe "working smarter and not harder" will work with many scenarios, it doesn't always apply because like you said it depends on certain things. If two individuals had the same exact resources and ability, the one that works a little harder will usually surpass the other. But what you say about priority does ring true. Thing is in our country (USA) many people prioritize so much more over their health until it's much too late. And the reality is without decent health, none of the other things they think are a priority will matter as much if they are dealing with health issues and it causes them to NOT be able to work efficiently or care for loved ones. I hear all the time when I get clients that come in an at 40, 50, 60+ needing to fix themselves because of pain or health issues due to NOT making it a priority sooner. So maybe it comes down to instituting better while we're young, but so many of todays youngsters make social media a priority over learning better health to start taking themselves. And I put it on the parents as well. Behavior first is learned and happens at home and I applaud parents that are great examples of better health/exercise habits and teaching the importance of it to their kids even though they have to still work, take care of their home, and cater to kids activities while making time to fit in their own regimens of exercise/diet.
Is it harder to do? Yep no doubt. Does it take away from possible other things they may rather be doing? Sure. But IMO, it should be a main priority.
That was kind of my whole point, except I disagree with you that prioritizing health is harder to do.
It isn't, it's just not intuitive to make health your first priority.
I have a serious disability that forces me to put my health first, and it's pretty easy when you don't have a choice. I just make all decisions based on how the outcome will impact my health.
Culturally though, especially in the US, this isn't promoted as a socially acceptable main priority. People who choose to be less professionally/financially successful for the sake of life balance are seen as wasting their potential or as lazy. Putting your personal needs first is seen as selfish. Putting your physical well being before the extra curriculars of your children is seem as neglectful.
It's not that it's hard, it's just that it comes with substantial social and professional consequences, which a lot of people aren't braced for.
People have systematically deprioritized their health for a reason. You have to understand that reason before reprioritization can occur.
3 -
Yes I have to agree that culturally in many industrialized countries (and probably many poor ones) that health is likely on the back burner of priorities for many and that financial success is favored. It's too bad. Many can have both and a person who has better health can likely have better results because they may handle stress and self confidence on their physical image better.While I believe "working smarter and not harder" will work with many scenarios, it doesn't always apply because like you said it depends on certain things. If two individuals had the same exact resources and ability, the one that works a little harder will usually surpass the other. But what you say about priority does ring true. Thing is in our country (USA) many people prioritize so much more over their health until it's much too late. And the reality is without decent health, none of the other things they think are a priority will matter as much if they are dealing with health issues and it causes them to NOT be able to work efficiently or care for loved ones. I hear all the time when I get clients that come in an at 40, 50, 60+ needing to fix themselves because of pain or health issues due to NOT making it a priority sooner. So maybe it comes down to instituting better while we're young, but so many of todays youngsters make social media a priority over learning better health to start taking themselves. And I put it on the parents as well. Behavior first is learned and happens at home and I applaud parents that are great examples of better health/exercise habits and teaching the importance of it to their kids even though they have to still work, take care of their home, and cater to kids activities while making time to fit in their own regimens of exercise/diet.
Is it harder to do? Yep no doubt. Does it take away from possible other things they may rather be doing? Sure. But IMO, it should be a main priority.
That was kind of my whole point, except I disagree with you that prioritizing health is harder to do.
It isn't, it's just not intuitive to make health your first priority.
I have a serious disability that forces me to put my health first, and it's pretty easy when you don't have a choice. I just make all decisions based on how the outcome will impact my health.
Culturally though, especially in the US, this isn't promoted as a socially acceptable main priority. People who choose to be less professionally/financially successful for the sake of life balance are seen as wasting their potential or as lazy. Putting your personal needs first is seen as selfish. Putting your physical well being before the extra curriculars of your children is seem as neglectful.
It's not that it's hard, it's just that it comes with substantial social and professional consequences, which a lot of people aren't braced for.
People have systematically deprioritized their health for a reason. You have to understand that reason before reprioritization can occur.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
@ninerbuff
"Many can have both and a person who has better health can likely have better results because they may handle stress and self confidence on their physical image better."
I want to know what you really think. A percentage of women grow up being told how pretty and beautiful they are. They learn to coast on their looks. Boys aren't told those same things.
Throw social media into the mix. We reinforce those same beauty standards onto perfect strangers. There's a different percentage of men compared to women who rely on constant reinforcement. Environment matters.
A supportive environment leads to success. You see it every single day. We have to pay attention how we identify, modify and fortify behaviors with strangers. Looks fade with the aging process but muscles will carry us all of the way to the final platform.
We didn't grow up sitting on the couch waiting for a man to do all of the heavy lifting and work. It's not bragging if it's true. Western women repair fences and take care of livestock alongside the men. I'm loud and proud about it. I don't rely on compliments from strangers. I don't need them.
1 -
Hiawassee88 wrote: »@ninerbuff
"Many can have both and a person who has better health can likely have better results because they may handle stress and self confidence on their physical image better."
I want to know what you really think. A percentage of women grow up being told how pretty and beautiful they are. They learn to coast on their looks. Boys aren't told those same things.
Throw social media into the mix. We reinforce those same beauty standards onto perfect strangers. There's a different percentage of men compared to women who rely on constant reinforcement. Environment matters.
A supportive environment leads to success. You see it every single day. We have to pay attention how we identify, modify and fortify behaviors with strangers. Looks fade with the aging process but muscles will carry us all of the way to the final platform.
We didn't grow up sitting on the couch waiting for a man to do all of the heavy lifting and work. It's not bragging if it's true. Western women repair fences and take care of livestock alongside the men. I'm loud and proud about it. I don't rely on compliments from strangers. I don't need them.
Uh...I grew up in a family full of stunning beautiful women, my mom was a model, and we were all heavily conditioned to value our appearance. But it didn't make any of us "coast." In fact, in my family every single woman is wildly successful and all of the men are under achievers, consistently.
Most women I know who've been conditioned to feel like their looks are the basis of their worth as a human don't feel less pressure, they feel more, and really struggle to find intrinsic value.
I know a few really lazy women who depend on their husbands to do everything for them, but incidentally, none of them are particularly beautiful, so this is not strictly a pretty girl thing.
Incidentally, I also know of several men who are incredibly lazy and have their wives do literally everything for them. So there's that too.
I also completely disagree that beautiful men aren't praised for their looks. I've dated several breathtakingly gorgeous men, and people literally stop and cross the street to tell them how handsome they are constantly. Like endless frickin' praise from both men and women, as if their handsomeness is some huge accomplishment and reflects on them as good people.
In fact, I think beautiful men get far more complimemts and have far more value put on their looks than beautiful women do. The praise women get on our looks is generally tinged with judgement of one sort or another, I never just feel *good* when someone comments on my appearance, but the praise handsome men get is more wholesome and positive.
3 -
The glass ceiling still exists so I want ninerbuff's take on it. The good ole boys club is alive and kicking. That invisible barrier in the workplace remains. I've watched fit, tall, handsome men get ahead of shorter, smarter men. Fit people are considered more able by employers. Good looks may get them there but brains will keep them there. There's every variation on a theme. You can be fit, dumber than a box of rocks and still get ahead or keep the job.
All of this mileage varies in the modeling world where looks are king to success.1 -
Hiawassee88 wrote: »@ninerbuff
"Many can have both and a person who has better health can likely have better results because they may handle stress and self confidence on their physical image better."
I want to know what you really think. A percentage of women grow up being told how pretty and beautiful they are. They learn to coast on their looks. Boys aren't told those same things.
Throw social media into the mix. We reinforce those same beauty standards onto perfect strangers. There's a different percentage of men compared to women who rely on constant reinforcement. Environment matters.
A supportive environment leads to success. You see it every single day. We have to pay attention how we identify, modify and fortify behaviors with strangers. Looks fade with the aging process but muscles will carry us all of the way to the final platform.
We didn't grow up sitting on the couch waiting for a man to do all of the heavy lifting and work. It's not bragging if it's true. Western women repair fences and take care of livestock alongside the men. I'm loud and proud about it. I don't rely on compliments from strangers. I don't need them.
You don't consider "young = cute" to be part of the distorted environment? Interesting.
I don't know whether more women than men require constant reinforcement, though I think the specific nature of the needed reinforcement tends to differ in a somewhat gendered way. I've known some men who prefer women - and sometimes male followers - who circle around them admiringly, but who don't expect reciprocity. (Not saying that's exclusive to men, either - just making a counter case about who needs constant reinforcement.)
There are any number of social influences that can undermine self-confidence (for men, for women), and make them more likely to be needy about reinforcement, IMO. It's common for us to feel the societal slights against our own sex more deeply, I suspect.
Not that I value cute over strength (and some other qualities) in men or women.2 -
Looks fade with aging process and age discrimination is alive and kicking in the workplace, too. I've watched many fall all over youth = cute = highly favored and employable. I've had a front row seat and it's more than interesting.
So does that little "extra" help bring success? A little extra cute and youthful, fit, tall and handsome...it sure does. But that's not my question for ninerbuff:
I want to know what he thinks about the way we raise girls vs. boys in a world full of perfect social media platforms. Constant comparisons, unrealistic standards and ideal body types. Deluged with images of beauty. It all translates over into the workplace, too.1 -
I'm going to answer my own question. 😂 If women are ever going to break through the glass ceiling, throw all of those romance novels into the bin and quit watching that Christmas channel. I've never watched one of those shows. A few nights of that and you'll be nuttier than a fruitcake.
Raise your boys and girls to believe that neither of them have to get small or shrink. Both of them can shatter every ceiling or they can learn how to be their own boss, too. Highlight their strengths and help them get strong in their youth. Teach them how to adapt and change, turn on a dime. Don't let anyone crush their spirits. Help them break through every barrier and grab every opportunity.
It may sound trite but looks aren't everything. Help your kids know their worth so they can ask for a bump in pay at the right time. Mistakes and setbacks are a part of every life. Teach them how to be an advocate for themselves, come hell or high water.
I'll still wait for ninerbuff and his looks aren't fading. He's getting purdier every single day. Lastly, I do like everything he says and does. He doesn't cut me any slack because I say that. I do because he doesn't blow smoke and he's good to everyone. Now watch, he'll crack my knuckles but I don't care.
1 -
What I'm trying to say is that while looks objectively do change as the years advance, the idea that they fade, or become less beautiful, is pretty much a social construct. Doubtless it has its roots in biology (cute = better breeding potential, maybe), but it's still a value judgement, not an inevitable, objective fact.
I'm not saying this to make beauty claims for myself as an old person, though I am an old person. Cute has never much been my swim-lane, with a possible brief exception during the gazelle-like dewy glow of adolescence, when most young women are IMO objectively quite beautiful for a while, more as a matter of awkward grace and potential than actual looks, perhaps. (Men have their stage, too, but maybe not at exactly the same age/development.)
But I'm way off topic here.
Yes, Niner looks great (and strong), and is an asset to the MFP Community in big ways. (Though I'm not very into whether other people are visually cute or not, either.)
As far as kids and success, I suspect it's more important to help them value their own effort and diligence - things of that nature. There seems to be some research suggesting that's a good plan, too, though I don't have a cite handy.3 -
I don't disagree here. I DO believe that character of the individual does play into as well. I mean even very average looking people find financial success. You don't need to look far for that.Hiawassee88 wrote: »@ninerbuff
"Many can have both and a person who has better health can likely have better results because they may handle stress and self confidence on their physical image better."
I want to know what you really think. A percentage of women grow up being told how pretty and beautiful they are. They learn to coast on their looks. Boys aren't told those same things.
Throw social media into the mix. We reinforce those same beauty standards onto perfect strangers. There's a different percentage of men compared to women who rely on constant reinforcement. Environment matters.
A supportive environment leads to success. You see it every single day. We have to pay attention how we identify, modify and fortify behaviors with strangers. Looks fade with the aging process but muscles will carry us all of the way to the final platform.
We didn't grow up sitting on the couch waiting for a man to do all of the heavy lifting and work. It's not bragging if it's true. Western women repair fences and take care of livestock alongside the men. I'm loud and proud about it. I don't rely on compliments from strangers. I don't need them.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
Lol, good thing I have good character because looks weren't my thing growing up.Hiawassee88 wrote: »@ninerbuff
"Many can have both and a person who has better health can likely have better results because they may handle stress and self confidence on their physical image better."
I want to know what you really think. A percentage of women grow up being told how pretty and beautiful they are. They learn to coast on their looks. Boys aren't told those same things.
Throw social media into the mix. We reinforce those same beauty standards onto perfect strangers. There's a different percentage of men compared to women who rely on constant reinforcement. Environment matters.
A supportive environment leads to success. You see it every single day. We have to pay attention how we identify, modify and fortify behaviors with strangers. Looks fade with the aging process but muscles will carry us all of the way to the final platform.
We didn't grow up sitting on the couch waiting for a man to do all of the heavy lifting and work. It's not bragging if it's true. Western women repair fences and take care of livestock alongside the men. I'm loud and proud about it. I don't rely on compliments from strangers. I don't need them.
Uh...I grew up in a family full of stunning beautiful women, my mom was a model, and we were all heavily conditioned to value our appearance. But it didn't make any of us "coast." In fact, in my family every single woman is wildly successful and all of the men are under achievers, consistently.
Most women I know who've been conditioned to feel like their looks are the basis of their worth as a human don't feel less pressure, they feel more, and really struggle to find intrinsic value.
I know a few really lazy women who depend on their husbands to do everything for them, but incidentally, none of them are particularly beautiful, so this is not strictly a pretty girl thing.
Incidentally, I also know of several men who are incredibly lazy and have their wives do literally everything for them. So there's that too.
I also completely disagree that beautiful men aren't praised for their looks. I've dated several breathtakingly gorgeous men, and people literally stop and cross the street to tell them how handsome they are constantly. Like endless frickin' praise from both men and women, as if their handsomeness is some huge accomplishment and reflects on them as good people.
In fact, I think beautiful men get far more complimemts and have far more value put on their looks than beautiful women do. The praise women get on our looks is generally tinged with judgement of one sort or another, I never just feel *good* when someone comments on my appearance, but the praise handsome men get is more wholesome and positive.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
Possibly also because fit people tend to take less time off? I mean, I hardly ever called out on any job I've had and since 2015 (with the exception of COVID) I've never called out on my job at my current gym.Hiawassee88 wrote: »The glass ceiling still exists so I want ninerbuff's take on it. The good ole boys club is alive and kicking. That invisible barrier in the workplace remains. I've watched fit, tall, handsome men get ahead of shorter, smarter men. Fit people are considered more able by employers. Good looks may get them there but brains will keep them there. There's every variation on a theme. You can be fit, dumber than a box of rocks and still get ahead or keep the job.
All of this mileage varies in the modeling world where looks are king to success.
But in my line of work, you WILL tend to find that prettier people tend to get hired more because.......well it's the gym.
I don't doubt in ANY line of work that looks will get attention of anyone hiring. Of course that's just superficial, but it's just human nature.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
Oh, I'd hate to be a woman. Social media (even before the boom of it being on the internet) pretty much set a standard that most girls thought they had to live up to. And being a yard duty at a middle school (I monitor kids at lunch time 5 days a week for a couple of hours) I hear and see it everyday in the school yard. There are constant comparisons with girls on body type, hair, clothing, etc. And now with boys, I'm seeing more and more just wanting to get more muscle even in 8th grade whereas when I was growing up, everyone just wanted to be like Bruce Lee and know martial arts.Hiawassee88 wrote: »Looks fade with aging process and age discrimination is alive and kicking in the workplace, too. I've watched many fall all over youth = cute = highly favored and employable. I've had a front row seat and it's more than interesting.
So does that little "extra" help bring success? A little extra cute and youthful, fit, tall and handsome...it sure does. But that's not my question for ninerbuff:
I want to know what he thinks about the way we raise girls vs. boys in a world full of perfect social media platforms. Constant comparisons, unrealistic standards and ideal body types. Deluged with images of beauty. It all translates over into the workplace, too.
I hate to admit it, but I'm in a business where we thrive on people just trying to improve their looks over their health first and foremost. They'll take a banging body over eating better, getting more rest and destressing overall. It's only with most of my older clientele that I see a shift more towards health than looks.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
Funny you wrote that because believe it or not, I've taught my daughter this way. She has a handful of friends like her that don't give a damn about how people look, but how they treat people. She's kind and helpful and I've taught her not to give a damn about what people's opinions are about what they think about her. She's goofy/nerdy and pretty quiet in crowds, but amongst friends and family very outgoing. I can't wait to see what she does in her future because she just graduated highschool and turns 18 this Wednesday.Hiawassee88 wrote: »I'm going to answer my own question. 😂 If women are ever going to break through the glass ceiling, throw all of those romance novels into the bin and quit watching that Christmas channel. I've never watched one of those shows. A few nights of that and you'll be nuttier than a fruitcake.
Raise your boys and girls to believe that neither of them have to get small or shrink. Both of them can shatter every ceiling or they can learn how to be their own boss, too. Highlight their strengths and help them get strong in their youth. Teach them how to adapt and change, turn on a dime. Don't let anyone crush their spirits. Help them break through every barrier and grab every opportunity.
It may sound trite but looks aren't everything. Help your kids know their worth so they can ask for a bump in pay at the right time. Mistakes and setbacks are a part of every life. Teach them how to be an advocate for themselves, come hell or high water.
I'll still wait for ninerbuff and his looks aren't fading. He's getting purdier every single day. Lastly, I do like everything he says and does. He doesn't cut me any slack because I say that. I do because he doesn't blow smoke and he's good to everyone. Now watch, he'll crack my knuckles but I don't care.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
Hollywood has set up a standard for women that after 40 (unless they are really good actresses), tend to fade from the limelight, while men even in their 60's can get good roles. I know this carries over to how many young women think today. Everyone always wishes they didn't have to age out of their peak years physically, myself included. But we all know the reality and I think that many accept the fact too soon and give up as soon as they marry and have kids. No doubt that work and other responsibilities will take up more free time for them, but I still believe it's in everybody to ALLOW one hour for self improvement everyday.What I'm trying to say is that while looks objectively do change as the years advance, the idea that they fade, or become less beautiful, is pretty much a social construct. Doubtless it has its roots in biology (cute = better breeding potential, maybe), but it's still a value judgement, not an inevitable, objective fact.
I'm not saying this to make beauty claims for myself as an old person, though I am an old person. Cute has never much been my swim-lane, with a possible brief exception during the gazelle-like dewy glow of adolescence, when most young women are IMO objectively quite beautiful for a while, more as a matter of awkward grace and potential than actual looks, perhaps. (Men have their stage, too, but maybe not at exactly the same age/development.)
But I'm way off topic here.
Yes, Niner looks great (and strong), and is an asset to the MFP Community in big ways. (Though I'm not very into whether other people are visually cute or not, either.)
As far as kids and success, I suspect it's more important to help them value their own effort and diligence - things of that nature. There seems to be some research suggesting that's a good plan, too, though I don't have a cite handy.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2
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