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Just that little "extra" helps bring success?
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Hiawassee88 wrote: »@ninerbuff
"Many can have both and a person who has better health can likely have better results because they may handle stress and self confidence on their physical image better."
I want to know what you really think. A percentage of women grow up being told how pretty and beautiful they are. They learn to coast on their looks. Boys aren't told those same things.
Throw social media into the mix. We reinforce those same beauty standards onto perfect strangers. There's a different percentage of men compared to women who rely on constant reinforcement. Environment matters.
A supportive environment leads to success. You see it every single day. We have to pay attention how we identify, modify and fortify behaviors with strangers. Looks fade with the aging process but muscles will carry us all of the way to the final platform.
We didn't grow up sitting on the couch waiting for a man to do all of the heavy lifting and work. It's not bragging if it's true. Western women repair fences and take care of livestock alongside the men. I'm loud and proud about it. I don't rely on compliments from strangers. I don't need them.
You don't consider "young = cute" to be part of the distorted environment? Interesting.
I don't know whether more women than men require constant reinforcement, though I think the specific nature of the needed reinforcement tends to differ in a somewhat gendered way. I've known some men who prefer women - and sometimes male followers - who circle around them admiringly, but who don't expect reciprocity. (Not saying that's exclusive to men, either - just making a counter case about who needs constant reinforcement.)
There are any number of social influences that can undermine self-confidence (for men, for women), and make them more likely to be needy about reinforcement, IMO. It's common for us to feel the societal slights against our own sex more deeply, I suspect.
Not that I value cute over strength (and some other qualities) in men or women.2 -
Looks fade with aging process and age discrimination is alive and kicking in the workplace, too. I've watched many fall all over youth = cute = highly favored and employable. I've had a front row seat and it's more than interesting.
So does that little "extra" help bring success? A little extra cute and youthful, fit, tall and handsome...it sure does. But that's not my question for ninerbuff:
I want to know what he thinks about the way we raise girls vs. boys in a world full of perfect social media platforms. Constant comparisons, unrealistic standards and ideal body types. Deluged with images of beauty. It all translates over into the workplace, too.1 -
I'm going to answer my own question. 😂 If women are ever going to break through the glass ceiling, throw all of those romance novels into the bin and quit watching that Christmas channel. I've never watched one of those shows. A few nights of that and you'll be nuttier than a fruitcake.
Raise your boys and girls to believe that neither of them have to get small or shrink. Both of them can shatter every ceiling or they can learn how to be their own boss, too. Highlight their strengths and help them get strong in their youth. Teach them how to adapt and change, turn on a dime. Don't let anyone crush their spirits. Help them break through every barrier and grab every opportunity.
It may sound trite but looks aren't everything. Help your kids know their worth so they can ask for a bump in pay at the right time. Mistakes and setbacks are a part of every life. Teach them how to be an advocate for themselves, come hell or high water.
I'll still wait for ninerbuff and his looks aren't fading. He's getting purdier every single day. Lastly, I do like everything he says and does. He doesn't cut me any slack because I say that. I do because he doesn't blow smoke and he's good to everyone. Now watch, he'll crack my knuckles but I don't care.
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What I'm trying to say is that while looks objectively do change as the years advance, the idea that they fade, or become less beautiful, is pretty much a social construct. Doubtless it has its roots in biology (cute = better breeding potential, maybe), but it's still a value judgement, not an inevitable, objective fact.
I'm not saying this to make beauty claims for myself as an old person, though I am an old person. Cute has never much been my swim-lane, with a possible brief exception during the gazelle-like dewy glow of adolescence, when most young women are IMO objectively quite beautiful for a while, more as a matter of awkward grace and potential than actual looks, perhaps. (Men have their stage, too, but maybe not at exactly the same age/development.)
But I'm way off topic here.
Yes, Niner looks great (and strong), and is an asset to the MFP Community in big ways. (Though I'm not very into whether other people are visually cute or not, either.)
As far as kids and success, I suspect it's more important to help them value their own effort and diligence - things of that nature. There seems to be some research suggesting that's a good plan, too, though I don't have a cite handy.3 -
I don't disagree here. I DO believe that character of the individual does play into as well. I mean even very average looking people find financial success. You don't need to look far for that.Hiawassee88 wrote: »@ninerbuff
"Many can have both and a person who has better health can likely have better results because they may handle stress and self confidence on their physical image better."
I want to know what you really think. A percentage of women grow up being told how pretty and beautiful they are. They learn to coast on their looks. Boys aren't told those same things.
Throw social media into the mix. We reinforce those same beauty standards onto perfect strangers. There's a different percentage of men compared to women who rely on constant reinforcement. Environment matters.
A supportive environment leads to success. You see it every single day. We have to pay attention how we identify, modify and fortify behaviors with strangers. Looks fade with the aging process but muscles will carry us all of the way to the final platform.
We didn't grow up sitting on the couch waiting for a man to do all of the heavy lifting and work. It's not bragging if it's true. Western women repair fences and take care of livestock alongside the men. I'm loud and proud about it. I don't rely on compliments from strangers. I don't need them.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Lol, good thing I have good character because looks weren't my thing growing up.Hiawassee88 wrote: »@ninerbuff
"Many can have both and a person who has better health can likely have better results because they may handle stress and self confidence on their physical image better."
I want to know what you really think. A percentage of women grow up being told how pretty and beautiful they are. They learn to coast on their looks. Boys aren't told those same things.
Throw social media into the mix. We reinforce those same beauty standards onto perfect strangers. There's a different percentage of men compared to women who rely on constant reinforcement. Environment matters.
A supportive environment leads to success. You see it every single day. We have to pay attention how we identify, modify and fortify behaviors with strangers. Looks fade with the aging process but muscles will carry us all of the way to the final platform.
We didn't grow up sitting on the couch waiting for a man to do all of the heavy lifting and work. It's not bragging if it's true. Western women repair fences and take care of livestock alongside the men. I'm loud and proud about it. I don't rely on compliments from strangers. I don't need them.
Uh...I grew up in a family full of stunning beautiful women, my mom was a model, and we were all heavily conditioned to value our appearance. But it didn't make any of us "coast." In fact, in my family every single woman is wildly successful and all of the men are under achievers, consistently.
Most women I know who've been conditioned to feel like their looks are the basis of their worth as a human don't feel less pressure, they feel more, and really struggle to find intrinsic value.
I know a few really lazy women who depend on their husbands to do everything for them, but incidentally, none of them are particularly beautiful, so this is not strictly a pretty girl thing.
Incidentally, I also know of several men who are incredibly lazy and have their wives do literally everything for them. So there's that too.
I also completely disagree that beautiful men aren't praised for their looks. I've dated several breathtakingly gorgeous men, and people literally stop and cross the street to tell them how handsome they are constantly. Like endless frickin' praise from both men and women, as if their handsomeness is some huge accomplishment and reflects on them as good people.
In fact, I think beautiful men get far more complimemts and have far more value put on their looks than beautiful women do. The praise women get on our looks is generally tinged with judgement of one sort or another, I never just feel *good* when someone comments on my appearance, but the praise handsome men get is more wholesome and positive.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Possibly also because fit people tend to take less time off? I mean, I hardly ever called out on any job I've had and since 2015 (with the exception of COVID) I've never called out on my job at my current gym.Hiawassee88 wrote: »The glass ceiling still exists so I want ninerbuff's take on it. The good ole boys club is alive and kicking. That invisible barrier in the workplace remains. I've watched fit, tall, handsome men get ahead of shorter, smarter men. Fit people are considered more able by employers. Good looks may get them there but brains will keep them there. There's every variation on a theme. You can be fit, dumber than a box of rocks and still get ahead or keep the job.
All of this mileage varies in the modeling world where looks are king to success.
But in my line of work, you WILL tend to find that prettier people tend to get hired more because.......well it's the gym.
I don't doubt in ANY line of work that looks will get attention of anyone hiring. Of course that's just superficial, but it's just human nature.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Oh, I'd hate to be a woman. Social media (even before the boom of it being on the internet) pretty much set a standard that most girls thought they had to live up to. And being a yard duty at a middle school (I monitor kids at lunch time 5 days a week for a couple of hours) I hear and see it everyday in the school yard. There are constant comparisons with girls on body type, hair, clothing, etc. And now with boys, I'm seeing more and more just wanting to get more muscle even in 8th grade whereas when I was growing up, everyone just wanted to be like Bruce Lee and know martial arts.Hiawassee88 wrote: »Looks fade with aging process and age discrimination is alive and kicking in the workplace, too. I've watched many fall all over youth = cute = highly favored and employable. I've had a front row seat and it's more than interesting.
So does that little "extra" help bring success? A little extra cute and youthful, fit, tall and handsome...it sure does. But that's not my question for ninerbuff:
I want to know what he thinks about the way we raise girls vs. boys in a world full of perfect social media platforms. Constant comparisons, unrealistic standards and ideal body types. Deluged with images of beauty. It all translates over into the workplace, too.
I hate to admit it, but I'm in a business where we thrive on people just trying to improve their looks over their health first and foremost. They'll take a banging body over eating better, getting more rest and destressing overall. It's only with most of my older clientele that I see a shift more towards health than looks.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
Funny you wrote that because believe it or not, I've taught my daughter this way. She has a handful of friends like her that don't give a damn about how people look, but how they treat people. She's kind and helpful and I've taught her not to give a damn about what people's opinions are about what they think about her. She's goofy/nerdy and pretty quiet in crowds, but amongst friends and family very outgoing. I can't wait to see what she does in her future because she just graduated highschool and turns 18 this Wednesday.Hiawassee88 wrote: »I'm going to answer my own question. 😂 If women are ever going to break through the glass ceiling, throw all of those romance novels into the bin and quit watching that Christmas channel. I've never watched one of those shows. A few nights of that and you'll be nuttier than a fruitcake.
Raise your boys and girls to believe that neither of them have to get small or shrink. Both of them can shatter every ceiling or they can learn how to be their own boss, too. Highlight their strengths and help them get strong in their youth. Teach them how to adapt and change, turn on a dime. Don't let anyone crush their spirits. Help them break through every barrier and grab every opportunity.
It may sound trite but looks aren't everything. Help your kids know their worth so they can ask for a bump in pay at the right time. Mistakes and setbacks are a part of every life. Teach them how to be an advocate for themselves, come hell or high water.
I'll still wait for ninerbuff and his looks aren't fading. He's getting purdier every single day. Lastly, I do like everything he says and does. He doesn't cut me any slack because I say that. I do because he doesn't blow smoke and he's good to everyone. Now watch, he'll crack my knuckles but I don't care.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
Hollywood has set up a standard for women that after 40 (unless they are really good actresses), tend to fade from the limelight, while men even in their 60's can get good roles. I know this carries over to how many young women think today. Everyone always wishes they didn't have to age out of their peak years physically, myself included. But we all know the reality and I think that many accept the fact too soon and give up as soon as they marry and have kids. No doubt that work and other responsibilities will take up more free time for them, but I still believe it's in everybody to ALLOW one hour for self improvement everyday.What I'm trying to say is that while looks objectively do change as the years advance, the idea that they fade, or become less beautiful, is pretty much a social construct. Doubtless it has its roots in biology (cute = better breeding potential, maybe), but it's still a value judgement, not an inevitable, objective fact.
I'm not saying this to make beauty claims for myself as an old person, though I am an old person. Cute has never much been my swim-lane, with a possible brief exception during the gazelle-like dewy glow of adolescence, when most young women are IMO objectively quite beautiful for a while, more as a matter of awkward grace and potential than actual looks, perhaps. (Men have their stage, too, but maybe not at exactly the same age/development.)
But I'm way off topic here.
Yes, Niner looks great (and strong), and is an asset to the MFP Community in big ways. (Though I'm not very into whether other people are visually cute or not, either.)
As far as kids and success, I suspect it's more important to help them value their own effort and diligence - things of that nature. There seems to be some research suggesting that's a good plan, too, though I don't have a cite handy.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
Funny you wrote that because believe it or not, I've taught my daughter this way. She has a handful of friends like her that don't give a damn about how people look, but how they treat people. She's kind and helpful and I've taught her not to give a damn about what people's opinions are about what they think about her. She's goofy/nerdy and pretty quiet in crowds, but amongst friends and family very outgoing. I can't wait to see what she does in her future because she just graduated highschool and turns 18 this Wednesday.Hiawassee88 wrote: »I'm going to answer my own question. 😂 If women are ever going to break through the glass ceiling, throw all of those romance novels into the bin and quit watching that Christmas channel. I've never watched one of those shows. A few nights of that and you'll be nuttier than a fruitcake.
Raise your boys and girls to believe that neither of them have to get small or shrink. Both of them can shatter every ceiling or they can learn how to be their own boss, too. Highlight their strengths and help them get strong in their youth. Teach them how to adapt and change, turn on a dime. Don't let anyone crush their spirits. Help them break through every barrier and grab every opportunity.
It may sound trite but looks aren't everything. Help your kids know their worth so they can ask for a bump in pay at the right time. Mistakes and setbacks are a part of every life. Teach them how to be an advocate for themselves, come hell or high water.
I'll still wait for ninerbuff and his looks aren't fading. He's getting purdier every single day. Lastly, I do like everything he says and does. He doesn't cut me any slack because I say that. I do because he doesn't blow smoke and he's good to everyone. Now watch, he'll crack my knuckles but I don't care.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Funny you wrote that because believe it or not, I've taught my daughter this way. She has a handful of friends like her that don't give a damn about how people look, but how they treat people. She's kind and helpful and I've taught her not to give a damn about what people's opinions are about what they think about her. She's goofy/nerdy and pretty quiet in crowds, but amongst friends and family very outgoing. I can't wait to see what she does in her future because she just graduated highschool and turns 18 this Wednesday.Hiawassee88 wrote: »I'm going to answer my own question. 😂 If women are ever going to break through the glass ceiling, throw all of those romance novels into the bin and quit watching that Christmas channel. I've never watched one of those shows. A few nights of that and you'll be nuttier than a fruitcake.
Raise your boys and girls to believe that neither of them have to get small or shrink. Both of them can shatter every ceiling or they can learn how to be their own boss, too. Highlight their strengths and help them get strong in their youth. Teach them how to adapt and change, turn on a dime. Don't let anyone crush their spirits. Help them break through every barrier and grab every opportunity.
It may sound trite but looks aren't everything. Help your kids know their worth so they can ask for a bump in pay at the right time. Mistakes and setbacks are a part of every life. Teach them how to be an advocate for themselves, come hell or high water.
I'll still wait for ninerbuff and his looks aren't fading. He's getting purdier every single day. Lastly, I do like everything he says and does. He doesn't cut me any slack because I say that. I do because he doesn't blow smoke and he's good to everyone. Now watch, he'll crack my knuckles but I don't care.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Thank you. You're the best. I grew UP the very same way.
I had one really shallow school teacher who used to line the kids up in front of the room and make comparisons. Clothes, hair, looks...this teacher was cuckoo for cocoa puffs. She had me up there next to someone who looked exactly the opposite and was drawing comparisons. It was the only time my father went down to the 'schoolhouse' dressed to the nines and talked to the Supt. I never knew he did until much later but he told them not to ever single me or any kid out based on their looks. He was madder than a wet hornet but kept his cool. It never happened to me again. My father was my advocate.
When I see it in the workplace, it gives me a big pinch. Our school career is the best training ground for navigating through the sharky waters of adulthood.0 -
Thank you for this fascinating and well-thought-out discussion you guys, especially page 1 of this thread. It was thoroughly intellectually stimulating and I enjoyed the thoughtful back and forth. Wish I had anything valuable to contribute, but I don't really. Just anecdotally that I was 100% convinced that per my body type and just various factors, I would never be able to run or be very athletic. But I have pushed and continued to push myself, and with consistent effort, what was once straining myself at a light jog, is now my "rest jog" in between more vigorous stretches of running. Where I used to struggle to jog more than a quarter mile without stopping, I can now run/jog almost continuously for 2.5 miles. I did put in the extra effort. My results got better. I am still by no means an athlete, and my mile times are laughable to anyone else who "is a runner," but comparing myself just to my previous self, I feel like a total bad*kitten*.
But seriously, I search and search hard for threads just like this one, to get my intellectual fix from the forums. Thank you!4 -
I KNOW many people out there cut themselves short on what they actually can achieve in life and physically. I see it all the time. I have female clients that think "there's no way I can curl 15lbs" when in reality they used to hold a 25lbs kid on their arm all the time as a mom. I try to put things in perspective for many of my clients to give them the confidence in themselves because many times most people and a lot of media outlets don't tap that inner strength they all really have.happysquidmuffin wrote: »Thank you for this fascinating and well-thought-out discussion you guys, especially page 1 of this thread. It was thoroughly intellectually stimulating and I enjoyed the thoughtful back and forth. Wish I had anything valuable to contribute, but I don't really. Just anecdotally that I was 100% convinced that per my body type and just various factors, I would never be able to run or be very athletic. But I have pushed and continued to push myself, and with consistent effort, what was once straining myself at a light jog, is now my "rest jog" in between more vigorous stretches of running. Where I used to struggle to jog more than a quarter mile without stopping, I can now run/jog almost continuously for 2.5 miles. I did put in the extra effort. My results got better. I am still by no means an athlete, and my mile times are laughable to anyone else who "is a runner," but comparing myself just to my previous self, I feel like a total bad*kitten*.
But seriously, I search and search hard for threads just like this one, to get my intellectual fix from the forums. Thank you!
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
Hiawassee88 wrote: »@ninerbuff
"Many can have both and a person who has better health can likely have better results because they may handle stress and self confidence on their physical image better."
I want to know what you really think. A percentage of women grow up being told how pretty and beautiful they are. They learn to coast on their looks. Boys aren't told those same things.
Throw social media into the mix. We reinforce those same beauty standards onto perfect strangers. There's a different percentage of men compared to women who rely on constant reinforcement. Environment matters.
A supportive environment leads to success. You see it every single day. We have to pay attention how we identify, modify and fortify behaviors with strangers. Looks fade with the aging process but muscles will carry us all of the way to the final platform.
We didn't grow up sitting on the couch waiting for a man to do all of the heavy lifting and work. It's not bragging if it's true. Western women repair fences and take care of livestock alongside the men. I'm loud and proud about it. I don't rely on compliments from strangers. I don't need them.
Uh...I grew up in a family full of stunning beautiful women, my mom was a model, and we were all heavily conditioned to value our appearance. But it didn't make any of us "coast." In fact, in my family every single woman is wildly successful and all of the men are under achievers, consistently.
Most women I know who've been conditioned to feel like their looks are the basis of their worth as a human don't feel less pressure, they feel more, and really struggle to find intrinsic value.
I know a few really lazy women who depend on their husbands to do everything for them, but incidentally, none of them are particularly beautiful, so this is not strictly a pretty girl thing.
Incidentally, I also know of several men who are incredibly lazy and have their wives do literally everything for them. So there's that too.
I also completely disagree that beautiful men aren't praised for their looks. I've dated several breathtakingly gorgeous men, and people literally stop and cross the street to tell them how handsome they are constantly. Like endless frickin' praise from both men and women, as if their handsomeness is some huge accomplishment and reflects on them as good people.
In fact, I think beautiful men get far more complimemts and have far more value put on their looks than beautiful women do. The praise women get on our looks is generally tinged with judgement of one sort or another, I never just feel *good* when someone comments on my appearance, but the praise handsome men get is more wholesome and positive.
I LOL'd when I read this because while it has never occurred to me to tell a strange man (or woman) that they are beautiful, I have often complimented dog owners
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I think this is not the first time you've posted about how people not properly re-racking weights generalizes to their overall character and approach to life, thus relates to overall life success?
I don't think it's that simple. I agree with some of those above about the role of luck and circumstance in life (not as a 100% determiner of outcomes, but a factor of varying impact in varied cases).
In addition, I think there's potentially "domain specificity" in people's dedication, effort, and (sometimes) even the ability to see that there's a there there. I don't think life success is all one thing, or - frankly - that we're individually in a good position to judge others' success, at least across quite a range of effectiveness. (Some forms/degrees of complete failure make themselves pretty obvious, though.)
I think I'm effective, competent and hardworking as a matter of character. However there are domains I care less about in life, and I can't maximize my effort and commitment in every single aspect of life: There are unavoidable limits on time and energy, so every single one of us has to set priorities for that time and energy. My priorities will be different from other people's - potentially even laughably or appallingly sub-par, in their view, in certain domains.
I would rerack weights properly in a public gym or shared space, out of social responsibility, because that's important to me. But I'm not maximum-tidy in areas that are mine alone. It's optional to me, so I tend to be an untidy pack rat (but not disorganized, a distinction tidy people often don't viscerally understand, IME). I think that people who put a lower priority on social responsibility are kinda jerks, but that's judgement from my personal value system. It would be fun to think they're "less successful" in some grand sense, but I can't persuade myself that's true.
As another example: Some other women my own age have criticized me as having "let myself go", not making the right level of effort to look youthful and pretty, because I don't dye my gray hair, wear make-up, get mani-pedis, have reconstruction surgery (or wear breast prostheses) post mastectomies, have surgery/botox or use expensive potions to minimize my wrinkles, or dress with great attention to being stylish (though I try to look respectable, and of course be clean). So, I'm not successful, in that domain, as a result of arguably sub-par effort.
Really, IMO it's that my definition of "taking care of myself " (vs. "letting myself go") prioritizes things that are less important to them than to me, and the things that they think show poor effort/character in me aren't important to me. (What matters to me: I'm now at a healthy weight, have been fitter than average for my demographic for 20+ years, and get quite good nutrition routinely. To some of the people who have made such judgmental comments about me, I'm quite certain that some of those domains are near-invisible, as realistic areas for them to apply effort and realize rewards. At minimum, they've 'got no time for that'. For clarity: I don't think that makes them "unsuccessful" or of poor character, it just makes them different from me, and that's OK.)
I do think people ideally would be clear-eyed about their values and choices. If some other trainers don't have as successful a practice as you do because they spend time/energy on peer interaction vs. creating business, then they would ideally recognize that they're making a choice to prioritize social relationships over business development. Many times, people are blind to that, I admit - and some people do IMO think they should have all the benefits across domains, without putting in the effort across all domains.
I do think that if I claim I want to accomplish some goal, and don't put in the effort, I'm telling myself fairy tales. If I wanted the thing, I'd work for it. I try not to lie to myself in that way. Those fairy tales are disempowering, if nothing else. Absent truly insurmountable obstacles, I can reach goals . . . but they require work. (As an aside, it gets under my skin when I see people tell artists or craftspeople "you're so talented: I could never do that" . . . ! No. Talent does have a role, but generally those artists/craftspeople have put in huge amounts of work over long time period to develop skills from those talents. Average-talent people can achieve more than they believe, but there's work required from anyone.)
Choices (including where and whether to apply effort) do have consequences. Some people make low effort in many domains, some work for OK-ness but not greatness in a wider range, some focus intensely on some single domain and are pretty dysfunctional in most others (the "obsessed mono-maniacal eccentric genius" kind of thing). Sub-par effort outcomes in one domain don't necessarily predict effort or outcomes in others.
Re "domain specificity" - a little (ok, a lot) of clutter inside my house doesn't bother me, but I am a fanatic on my walking trails and never head out without clippers and the intention to pick up all the sticks in the paths.
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