Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.

Vitamin D and covid

refactored
refactored Posts: 455 Member
in Debate Club
I watched this video recently. John Campbell presents the evidence that vitamin D reduces the risk of admission to ICU for covid related complications.

https://youtu.be/x5sc7G4s4CY

Does anyone have any criticisms about John Campbell and how he interprets research? Shouldn't he also be critiquing the evidence that vitamin D supplementation doesn't reduce the risk?
Tagged:

Replies

  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,264 Member
    edited February 2023
    Here's the study.

    https://mdpi.com/1424-8247/16/1/130

    Dr. Campbell wasn't interpreting what he thought the study said per se, only repeating what this study actually found.

    The CDC for example didn't recommend Vit. D because there were no studies done specifically showing it's effect on Covid 19 so there was no knowing one way or the other. One of the criticism has been that Vit. D being used billions of times around the world with minimal side effects and based on the mechanisms that Vit. D has to the immune system and beyond that it would have been a safe home mitigation at the beginning of the pandemic.

    The main reason why there were no studies done on Vit.D is because who would pay for it, other than a governing body like the CDC for the good of the nation and science. There's no reason why a pharmaceutically company like Pfizer for example would spend millions, even hundreds of millions showing an efficacy for Vit D when there is no patent and it costs pennies to make, so anyone can produce it and the cheapest would be coming from Countries India and China and especially when they have vaccines to sell. Most of the Studies for Covid 19 have come out of other Countries and this one is out of Italy.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,458 Member
    Three years into this pandemic and you're still watching Campbell? He's a less than reputable source.

    Early on he had some reasonable beliefs but he's gone totally off the rails into conspiracy theories and anti-vax stuff..

    I take Vitamin D, but I really needed it since I live pretty far north and was low. It's not gonna hurt you in recommended dosage. May or may not help immunity, like neanderthin said - but SARS-Cov2 is here to stay.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,264 Member
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Three years into this pandemic and you're still watching Campbell? He's a less than reputable source.

    Early on he had some reasonable beliefs but he's gone totally off the rails into conspiracy theories and anti-vax stuff..

    I take Vitamin D, but I really needed it since I live pretty far north and was low. It's not gonna hurt you in recommended dosage. May or may not help immunity, like neanderthin said - but SARS-Cov2 is here to stay.

    Yeah I take 3000 IU a day and I live in Canada. Vit D definitely helps the immune system and it's actually vital (essential) for good immune health and overall health. Actually kind of a no brainer for anyone who either lives in northern latitudes or avoids the sun.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,458 Member
    edited February 2023
    neanderthin wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Three years into this pandemic and you're still watching Campbell? He's a less than reputable source.

    Early on he had some reasonable beliefs but he's gone totally off the rails into conspiracy theories and anti-vax stuff..

    I take Vitamin D, but I really needed it since I live pretty far north and was low. It's not gonna hurt you in recommended dosage. May or may not help immunity, like neanderthin said - but SARS-Cov2 is here to stay.

    Yeah I take 3000 IU a day and I live in Canada. Vit D definitely helps the immune system and it's actually vital (essential) for good immune health and overall health. Actually kind of a no brainer for anyone who either lives in northern latitudes or avoids the sun.

    thanks for fixing my wording.

    I refuse to watch that video of JC's but I know he has lots of videos about Vit D and Covid.

    My understanding is that Vit D isn't going to stop a SARS-Cov2 infection, though good Vit D levels may help with a less severe course of the disease...? I think people should be taking it all the time though - not just when they get sick. It's not a substitute for vaccines, either.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,264 Member
    edited February 2023
    cmriverside wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    cmriverside wrote: »
    Three years into this pandemic and you're still watching Campbell? He's a less than reputable source.

    Early on he had some reasonable beliefs but he's gone totally off the rails into conspiracy theories and anti-vax stuff..

    I take Vitamin D, but I really needed it since I live pretty far north and was low. It's not gonna hurt you in recommended dosage. May or may not help immunity, like neanderthin said - but SARS-Cov2 is here to stay.

    Yeah I take 3000 IU a day and I live in Canada. Vit D definitely helps the immune system and it's actually vital (essential) for good immune health and overall health. Actually kind of a no brainer for anyone who either lives in northern latitudes or avoids the sun.

    thanks for fixing my wording.

    I refuse to watch that video of JC's but I know he has lots of videos about Vit D and Covid.

    My understanding is that Vit D isn't going to stop a SARS-Cov2 infection, though good Vit D levels may help with a less severe course of the disease...? I think people should be taking it all the time though - not just when they get sick. It's not a substitute for vaccines, either.

    I linked the actual study.

    Too much politics in the whole covid conversation for my liking and truth will eventually come out in the wash, it always does, which then effects what apparently people are allowed to say or can't say, very political and not
    very scientific in the least. Also, nothing was going to actually stop covid 19, I think I'm allowed to say that now, but you never know lol. Cheers.
  • refactored
    refactored Posts: 455 Member
    I didn't realise he was anti-vax. That raises some red flags. Thanks for letting me know.

    I honestly hadn't come across his videos until it showed up in my feed this week. I also hadn't heard that vitamin D supports the immune system. I take it as advised by my doctor for bone health.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,617 Member
    refactored wrote: »
    I didn't realise he was anti-vax. That raises some red flags. Thanks for letting me know.

    I honestly hadn't come across his videos until it showed up in my feed this week. I also hadn't heard that vitamin D supports the immune system. I take it as advised by my doctor for bone health.

    Lots of things "support the immune system". (Even more things are claimed to do so. ;) )

    Generally, overall good nutrition is likely to "support the immune system", alongside a sensible dosage of exercise (challenging, not exhausting), wouldn't one think? Because healthy people probably have stronger immune systems?

    Of course, the gubmint would hide information about the potential benefits of supplements from us, being as how they're so political, all in bed with big pharma and stuff, anyway, huh?

    Oh, wait:

    https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/DietarySupplementsInTheTimeOfCOVID19-Consumer/

    or, if you want the pro version:

    https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/COVID19-HealthProfessional/

    Both of the above from our public servants at the US National Institutes of Health (NIH), the pro version complete with footnotes linking the relevant studies. Looks like they're keeping them updated, too - consumer version updated August 2022, pro version just a couple of weeks ago.
  • refactored
    refactored Posts: 455 Member
    edited February 2023
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Lots of things "support the immune system". (Even more things are claimed to do so. ;) )

    Generally, overall good nutrition is likely to "support the immune system", alongside a sensible dosage of exercise (challenging, not exhausting), wouldn't one think? Because healthy people probably have stronger immune systems?

    That's a fair point but it appears there is some controversy in the medical community around vitamin D specifically so I just wanted to explore that particular supplement (this from 2017 but suggests the existence of such a controversy https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.j456).

    I do agree that there appears to be a lot of research around the effect of specific vitamins and minerals and covid.

  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,264 Member
    edited February 2023
    refactored wrote: »
    I didn't realise he was anti-vax. That raises some red flags. Thanks for letting me know.

    I honestly hadn't come across his videos until it showed up in my feed this week. I also hadn't heard that vitamin D supports the immune system. I take it as advised by my doctor for bone health.

    He's not an anti vaxer, he's supported getting vaccinated from the very beginning and still does and is triple vaxed himself. All this can be confirmed by watching video's he's produced from the very beginning of the pandemic.
  • The_Enginerd
    The_Enginerd Posts: 3,982 Member
    neanderthin wrote: »
    Here's the study.

    https://mdpi.com/1424-8247/16/1/130

    Dr. Campbell wasn't interpreting what he thought the study said per se, only repeating what this study actually found.

    The CDC for example didn't recommend Vit. D because there were no studies done specifically showing it's effect on Covid 19 so there was no knowing one way or the other. One of the criticism has been that Vit. D being used billions of times around the world with minimal side effects and based on the mechanisms that Vit. D has to the immune system and beyond that it would have been a safe home mitigation at the beginning of the pandemic.

    The main reason why there were no studies done on Vit.D is because who would pay for it, other than a governing body like the CDC for the good of the nation and science. There's no reason why a pharmaceutically company like Pfizer for example would spend millions, even hundreds of millions showing an efficacy for Vit D when there is no patent and it costs pennies to make, so anyone can produce it and the cheapest would be coming from Countries India and China and especially when they have vaccines to sell. Most of the Studies for Covid 19 have come out of other Countries and this one is out of Italy.

    I would not expect Pfizer would fund a study because that's not their wheelhouse, and like you said, they don't have any financial incentive to do so. However, there is an entire world out there, and many countries with public healthcare systems that would LOVE to have a cheap, effective, already available treatment.

    Studies have been done, and based on those, the CDC did not recommend for or against vitamin D supplementation due to insufficient evidence.

    Looking to other studies, the consensus seems to be that if you are deficient, vitamin D supplementation is a good idea and deficient levels of vitamin D are associated with increased risk of severe outcomes from COVID-19. General supplementation is not recommended and evidence does not indicate a benefit to those with sufficient vitamin D levels.

    FWIW, I do take a vitamin D supplement daily as blood tests showed I was deficient despite living in the sunny southwest US and spending a good amount of time outside as an avid runner.

    Sources:
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-21513-9#Sec18
    https://health.ucdavis.edu/coronavirus/news/headlines/what-is-the-link-between-vitamin-d-levels-and-covid-19/2022/02
    https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/therapies/supplements/vitamin-d/
  • The_Enginerd
    The_Enginerd Posts: 3,982 Member
    refactored wrote: »
    I didn't realise he was anti-vax. That raises some red flags. Thanks for letting me know.

    I honestly hadn't come across his videos until it showed up in my feed this week. I also hadn't heard that vitamin D supports the immune system. I take it as advised by my doctor for bone health.

    The other problem I see with him is cherry picking of data and studies when he really should know better. Recommendations from reliable sources consider the entire body of evidence and merits, strengths, and limitations of each study.

    Those posters in the back just scream conspiracy theorist. I half expect to see him on the History channel talking about ancient aliens :lol:
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,264 Member
    edited February 2023
    The_Enginerd wrote: »
    refactored wrote: »
    I didn't realise he was anti-vax. That raises some red flags. Thanks for letting me know.

    I honestly hadn't come across his videos until it showed up in my feed this week. I also hadn't heard that vitamin D supports the immune system. I take it as advised by my doctor for bone health.

    The other problem I see with him is cherry picking of data and studies when he really should know better. Recommendations from reliable sources consider the entire body of evidence and merits, strengths, and limitations of each study.

    Those posters in the back just scream conspiracy theorist. I half expect to see him on the History channel talking about ancient aliens :lol:

    Campbell has been a huge proponent of vit D right from the very beginning and he gets pretty wound up when he talks about it, and this study was just like taking a drug for him. He got pretty emotional yelling "I told you so" funny to watch.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,617 Member
    refactored wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Lots of things "support the immune system". (Even more things are claimed to do so. ;) )

    Generally, overall good nutrition is likely to "support the immune system", alongside a sensible dosage of exercise (challenging, not exhausting), wouldn't one think? Because healthy people probably have stronger immune systems?

    That's a fair point but it appears there is some controversy in the medical community around vitamin D specifically so I just wanted to explore that particular supplement (this from 2017 but suggests the existence of such a controversy https://www.bmj.com/content/356/bmj.j456).

    I do agree that there appears to be a lot of research around the effect of specific vitamins and minerals and covid.

    Did you take a look at the very detailed section in the NIH "for professionals" document about the vitamin D studies that the NIH Office of Dietary Supplements considered relevant to this question, linked in my post in the section you didn't quote? They nerd out pretty lengthily on the question of efficacy - for vitamin D and other supplements, for that matter.


  • refactored
    refactored Posts: 455 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Did you take a look at the very detailed section in the NIH "for professionals" document about the vitamin D studies that the NIH Office of Dietary Supplements considered relevant to this question, linked in my post in the section you didn't quote? They nerd out pretty lengthily on the question of efficacy - for vitamin D and other supplements, for that matter.

    I did take a look at the vitamin D section but I didn't go through each linked study. I think NIH's stance can be summed up by the following quote in the second article you posted (https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/COVID19-HealthProfessional/ ) ...
    Currently, data are insufficient to support a recommendation for or against the use of vitamin D supplementation to prevent or treat COVID-19. However, some evidence suggests that vitamin D supplementation helps prevent respiratory tract infections, particularly in people with 25(OH)D levels less than 25 nmol/L (10 ng/mL) [282]. Scientists are therefore actively studying whether vitamin D might also be helpful for preventing or treating COVID-19.

    Reading the fact sheet on vitamin D (https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-Consumer/ ) linked to the first article you posted (https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/DietarySupplementsInTheTimeOfCOVID19-Consumer/ ) did make me realize that the subject is more complicated because, among other things, vitamin D can interact with other drugs and can have an effect on blood pressure in some circumstances.

    All of this makes me realize that JC is being irresponsible in his videos by not discussing issues such as these. I agree that he is also cherry picking the research on the subject.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,264 Member
    edited February 2023
    Do you think that food fortified with Vit. D shouldn't be consumed considering they could interact with "other drugs".
  • refactored
    refactored Posts: 455 Member
    neanderthin wrote: »
    Do you think that food fortified with Vit. D shouldn't be consumed considering they could interact with "other drugs".

    I should have said "specific drugs" some of which are in the vitamin D fact sheet (https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminD-HealthProfessional ). I don't think people should stop consuming food fortified with vitamin D just because they take any medication. There are plenty of interactions between specific food and specific medications (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3191675/ ) that doctors and pharmacists are know about. So I would assume if vitamin D fortification was a potential issue for people taking specific medications, they would be informed of the problem by their doctor or pharmacist.
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,458 Member
    @neanderthin
    JC started out as a big propronent of vaccination(s.)

    Have you watched any of his videos in the past six months? He's gone off the rails...pandering to the far right.

    I mean, he has a much more rabid viewer base that way. The rest of us have kind of moved on...he's still trying for a specific segment and most of his latest videos have been about side effects and the dangers of the vaccinations...which again he gets it wrong and is not using the data responsibly.

    IN MY OPINION OF COURSE :lol:
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,264 Member
    edited February 2023
    cmriverside wrote: »
    @neanderthin
    JC started out as a big propronent of vaccination(s.)

    Have you watched any of his videos in the past six months? He's gone off the rails...pandering to the far right.

    I mean, he has a much more rabid viewer base that way. The rest of us have kind of moved on...he's still trying for a specific segment and most of his latest videos have been about side effects and the dangers of the vaccinations...which again he gets it wrong and is not using the data responsibly.

    IN MY OPINION OF COURSE :lol:

    Campbell was a guy that the average person could listen to the science in a way that made it easy to understand and
    his viewership exploded and he's been putting video's up since 08 and I've watched his video's occasionally from the very beginning of the pandemic as well as probably a dozen other scientists that I follow. Main stream media is pretty much a dying entity with their dialoged 10 to 20 minute sound bites following a particular biased stance that are based in politics for the most part, I have no interest in that part of misinformation as well.

    Campbell has never had a video taken down because of misinformation by YouTube. They did suspend one of his video's, I forget, maybe 8 months ago and was asked to take a statement out, which he did, and the video was released. This shook him up pretty good, because he thought he was just repeating what the science said, but obviously it got someone's panties in a bunch. After that the new posters on his wall were put up which reminded him to follow the science so that doesn't happen again, which he's done and has had no video's taken down or suspended.

    The problem I see with him and the reason I don't watch him much anymore is because he's gotten quite emotional and has also been questioning why things were done a certain way when any new science was released, or were not investigated within the scientific method during a fertile opportunity like a pandemic for future guidance and data, which gets him in trouble. This has along with many many other scientists around the world been classified as you say, far right which of course is easier to put people in a group that can be discarded and cancelled rather than debate the scientific literature. Personally I don't like it when emotion and politics gets involved with science and it's the reason I don't watch him or main stream media for that matter much anymore. Like I said, everything comes out it the wash.
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    I've been taking vitamin D since I moved back to Massachusetts from South Florida in 2011. I've had two COVID vaxes and two boosters.

    I'd been anti-flu vax for myself since I had a bad reaction when I was in the military in the 90s, but started getting it again in 2020 or 2021 when credible news sources stressed the importance of the flu vax amid the pandemic. No reactions.
  • thesawyerbunch
    thesawyerbunch Posts: 22 Member
    edited June 2023
    I've been megadosing vitamin C, D, etc. for years, and guess what? I haven't even had the sniffles in years. I never caught COVID, either. Oh, and I didn't (and never will) take the jab, and I didn't wear the mask. I built up my immune system and let it do its job. So, yes, I fully believe that vitamins are key to staying healthy.

    PS: I don't know who that Campbell guy is.
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    thesawyerbunch wrote: »
    I've been megadosing vitamin C, D, etc. for years, and guess what? I haven't even had the sniffles in years. I never caught COVID, either. Oh, and I didn't (and never will) take the jab, and I didn't wear the mask. I built up my immune system and let it do its job. So, yes, I fully believe that vitamins are key to staying healthy.

    PS: I don't know who that Campbell guy is.

    I'm going to repeat myself re vitamin D and flu and COVID shots, and add that I have been megadosing vitamin C since 1999.

    So I have a long history of believing that vitamins are important. But so is getting credible news sources during a once-in-a-lifetime pandemic, and changing behavior accordingly.

    Where did you live that you were able to get away with not wearing a mask?
    kshama2001 wrote: »
    I've been taking vitamin D since I moved back to Massachusetts from South Florida in 2011. I've had two COVID vaxes and two boosters.

    I'd been anti-flu vax for myself since I had a bad reaction when I was in the military in the 90s, but started getting it again in 2020 or 2021 when credible news sources stressed the importance of the flu vax amid the pandemic. No reactions.
  • kcole0619
    kcole0619 Posts: 1 Member
    neanderthin wrote: »
    Here's the study.
    https://mdpi.com/1424-8247/16/1/130
    Dr. Campbell wasn't interpreting what he thought the study said per se, only repeating what this study actually found.

    I think it's instructive to actually read this "study" and use our critical thinking skills to evaluate a few items:
    • What are the authors' credentials?
    • What study type is this?
    • What is the study quality?
    • Is MDPI a reputable source?
    Authors' credentials: A small group of internal medicine doctors with no apparent expertise in epidemiology or virology Study type: They did the equivalent of a Google search of articles and picked a few
    "The search string that we used retrieved 78 bibliographic citations.... Finally, only five studies were included in this meta-W."
    Study Quality: Of the handful of research they selected most were of small sample size
    "Three out of five studies had a small sample size of patients."
    Reputable Source?: MDPI has noted reputation issues and even been listed as a "predatory publisher"
    Predatory publishers are publications that exploit the academic publishing system for financial gain, often at the expense of rigorous scientific standards and ethical principles.

    Examples of reliability issues
    Read the list of 'Evaluation and controversies' including:
    • Inclusion in Beall's list of predatory publishing companies
      "MDPI's warehouse journals contain hundreds of lightly-reviewed articles that are mainly written and published for promotion and tenure purposes rather than to communicate science."
    • Resignations of editors
      In August 2018, 10 senior editors (including the editor-in-chief) of the journal Nutrients resigned, alleging that MDPI forced the replacement of the editor-in-chief because of his high editorial standards and for resisting pressure to "accept manuscripts of mediocre quality and importance."

      In 2021, five members of the editorial board of the journal Vaccines resigned after Vaccines published a controversial article that misused data to reach the incorrect conclusion that vaccines against COVID-19 had no clear benefit.
      ...and so on...
    • Withdrawals of support by faculties and universities
    • Inclusion in Early Warning List of the Chinese Academy of Sciences
    • Perception of Hungarian researchers
    • Assessments in the Nordic countries
    • Concerns over papers connected to a research paper mill
    • 2023 Clarivate delistings
    • Controversial articles
    My personal evaluation
    Outside of Dr. Campbell's own reliability issues, which I don't cover above, the 'study' that he's quoting to support his own ideas (i.e. confirmation bias) has issues with the limited qualifications of the authors and noted issues by the publisher including sufficient peer-review and overall reliability and reputation.

    #CaveatEmptor
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,264 Member
    edited July 2023
    I agree. When he began to cherry pick data to support his "believes" that's when I stopped watching him.
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    @kcole0619 thanks for taking the time to write that up, appreciated!
  • chris_in_cal
    chris_in_cal Posts: 2,547 Member
    kcole0619 wrote: »
    Here's the study.
    ...
    #CaveatEmptor

    Great post. Nice job. Thanks.
  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,264 Member
    One of my go to reference Doctors and this video talks about the validity of nutritional science in general.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=KDY7XYmb6nI&t=29s

    Nutrition science is entirely unreliable

Categories