Wegovy

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Replies

  • neanderthin
    neanderthin Posts: 10,262 Member
    edited July 2023
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    chris_in_cal wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.

    I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.

    I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.

    The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.

    The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.

    {lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.

    {treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.

    Same outcome.

    I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.

    Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.

    Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.

    Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.

    Allow me to explain why I have zero empathy for that argument. As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do. Your diet completely changes from what you're used to. You can't buy a single thing in the store without poring over the label, then calling the manufacturer to verify that it's not made on shared machinery. Restaurant French fries? Dream on. They're made in shared fryers with wheat containing products. But, if I don't stick to it I get violently ill. For weeks. So no, "but... but... but... eating less is too hard" just doesn't really cut it with me. That being said, I'm not against pharmaceuticals for weight loss. I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
    I believe your comparing the commitment "task" your obligated to make based on a disease you have, specifically Celiac Disease, and your argument, which is I believe, if obese people just took their weight more seriously, like a disease, then they wouldn't need a GLP-1 antagonist and considering when you stop taking the drug they just end up gaining the weight back and are no better off and maybe worse metabolically than before they started, just reinforces this argument. I think that's the point your making.

    Your making a strawman argument which is a logical fallacy. Your making a completely different argument comparing celiac with overeating then taking an "attack position" based on your personal experience that Celiac Disease is the same as obesity and can be treated the same by just avoiding the thing that makes someone obese, which is overeating food.

    Obesity is from what I've read over the years a little more complicated than just eating too much. I'm certainly not saying that nothing can be done about it, but there needs to be a lot more research. One of the reasons why GLP-1 works so well is because people don't have to do anything, it's an automatic result. People like that, it's easy and it gets the desired results.

    We are now entering the twilight zone with GLP-1 antagonists, Amygdala, Dopamine, Exendin-4, L-tyrosine, neurotransmitters that effect mood, depression, anorexia, addiction, basically brain and gut hormones that are as effective as GLP-1 in the respect that those effects take place regardless of whether we want them to or not.

    Which brings the basic elements that causes obesity into play, that being the food we're consuming. Are there elements, compounds, reasons why the vast majority of people (75%) of the population are overweight and obese. Are there endocrine-disrupting chemicals, or exogenous substances or mixtures that alters function(s) of the endocrine system and consequently causes adverse health effects like Ultra processed foods, phthalates and bisphenol which are BPA's for example. Do ultra processed foods have an effect on our endocrine system, yep, they sure do and considering of the 75% of processed foods consumed in the USA for example around 70% of those processed foods are ultra processed, and like GLP-1 antagonists, they work as well, helping to facilitate overeating and it's easy, people don't need to do anything special, it just happens, I digress.

    Why the media or the medical community are not putting this on the front burner is probably very political imo. Follow the money, with power and control surely close bedfellows. Personally a whole food diet puts this basic fundamental on pause, and there's no money promoting broccoli in the halls of the food and pharmaceutical industry, but I like to think it as a middle finger and subsequently that possible finger in the dike for gaining weight, a nice side effect.

    As a possible solution I would suggest that while a person is taking the trouble and expense taking GLP-1's to be proactive and that a possible dietary intervention take place with replacing some of your more processed foods and replacing them with a whole food option and this doesn't have to happen overnight, this can be a plan that can happens over years as well, just food for thought.
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    chris_in_cal wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.

    I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.

    I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.

    The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.

    The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.

    {lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.

    {treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.

    Same outcome.

    I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.

    Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.

    Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.

    Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.

    Allow me to explain why I have zero empathy for that argument. As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do. Your diet completely changes from what you're used to. You can't buy a single thing in the store without poring over the label, then calling the manufacturer to verify that it's not made on shared machinery. Restaurant French fries? Dream on. They're made in shared fryers with wheat containing products. But, if I don't stick to it I get violently ill. For weeks. So no, "but... but... but... eating less is too hard" just doesn't really cut it with me. That being said, I'm not against pharmaceuticals for weight loss. I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
    I believe your comparing the commitment "task" your obligated to make based on a disease you have, specifically Celiac Disease, and your argument, which is I believe, if obese people just took their weight more seriously, like a disease, then they wouldn't need a GLP-1 antagonist and considering when you stop taking the drug they just end up gaining the weight back and are no better off and maybe worse metabolically than before they started, just reinforces this argument. I think that's the point your making.

    Your making a strawman argument which is a logical fallacy. Your making a completely different argument comparing celiac with overeating then taking an "attack position" based on your personal experience that Celiac Disease is the same as obesity and can be treated the same by just avoiding the thing that makes someone obese, which is overeating food.

    Obesity is from what I've read over the years a little more complicated than just eating too much. I'm certainly not saying that nothing can be done about it, but there needs to be a lot more research. One of the reasons why GLP-1 works so well is because people don't have to do anything, it's an automatic result. People like that, it's easy and it gets the desired results.

    We are now entering the twilight zone with GLP-1 antagonists, Amygdala, Dopamine, Exendin-4, L-tyrosine, neurotransmitters that effect mood, depression, anorexia, addiction, basically brain and gut hormones that are as effective as GLP-1 in the respect that those effects take place regardless of whether we want them to or not.

    Which brings the basic elements that causes obesity into play, that being the food we're consuming. Are there elements, compounds, reasons why the vast majority of people (75%) of the population are overweight and obese. Are there endocrine-disrupting chemicals, or exogenous substances or mixtures that alters function(s) of the endocrine system and consequently causes adverse health effects like Ultra processed foods, phthalates and bisphenol which are BPA's for example. Do ultra processed foods have an effect on our endocrine system, yep, they sure do and considering of the 75% of processed foods consumed in the USA for example around 70% of those processed foods are ultra processed, and like GLP-1 antagonists, they work as well, helping to facilitate overeating and it's easy, people don't need to do anything special, it just happens, I digress.

    Why the media or the medical community are not putting this on the front burner is probably very political imo. Follow the money, with power and control surely close bedfellows. Personally a whole food diet puts this basic fundamental on pause, and there's no money promoting broccoli in the halls of the food and pharmaceutical industry, but I like to think it as a middle finger and subsequently that possible finger in the dike for gaining weight, a nice side effect.

    As a possible solution I would suggest that while a person is taking the trouble and expense taking GLP-1's to be proactive and that a possible dietary intervention take place with replacing some of your more processed foods and replacing them with a whole food option and this doesn't have to happen overnight, this can be a plan that can happens over years as well, just food for thought.

    You can feel free to disagree. It's an opinion, not a fact. And my point is, neither is easy. I specifically stated I'm not against weight loss drugs, simply that it can become an issue when someone loses access to them. People can and should do what they feel is necessary for themselves. I was more referring to people who refuse to really do anything, yet still complain about it.

    That is such a broad vague statement that it really holds no meaning whatsoever imo. What do you mean refuse? (I'm obese and I will do absolutely nothing to lose weight) Almost all people that have gained weight have tried to lose weight at some point in their lives and many can calk up multiple excursions trying. Why it's not easy to lose weight is the million dollar question, and some of the the answer is buried in the GLP-1data. Now of course the path is to normalize obesity considering being overweight and obesity represents 75% and rising, because people refused to lose weight, sure, sounds legit. cheers
  • sollyn23l2
    sollyn23l2 Posts: 1,786 Member
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    chris_in_cal wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.

    I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.

    I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.

    The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.

    The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.

    {lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.

    {treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.

    Same outcome.

    I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.

    Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.

    Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.

    Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.

    Allow me to explain why I have zero empathy for that argument. As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do. Your diet completely changes from what you're used to. You can't buy a single thing in the store without poring over the label, then calling the manufacturer to verify that it's not made on shared machinery. Restaurant French fries? Dream on. They're made in shared fryers with wheat containing products. But, if I don't stick to it I get violently ill. For weeks. So no, "but... but... but... eating less is too hard" just doesn't really cut it with me. That being said, I'm not against pharmaceuticals for weight loss. I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
    I believe your comparing the commitment "task" your obligated to make based on a disease you have, specifically Celiac Disease, and your argument, which is I believe, if obese people just took their weight more seriously, like a disease, then they wouldn't need a GLP-1 antagonist and considering when you stop taking the drug they just end up gaining the weight back and are no better off and maybe worse metabolically than before they started, just reinforces this argument. I think that's the point your making.

    Your making a strawman argument which is a logical fallacy. Your making a completely different argument comparing celiac with overeating then taking an "attack position" based on your personal experience that Celiac Disease is the same as obesity and can be treated the same by just avoiding the thing that makes someone obese, which is overeating food.

    Obesity is from what I've read over the years a little more complicated than just eating too much. I'm certainly not saying that nothing can be done about it, but there needs to be a lot more research. One of the reasons why GLP-1 works so well is because people don't have to do anything, it's an automatic result. People like that, it's easy and it gets the desired results.

    We are now entering the twilight zone with GLP-1 antagonists, Amygdala, Dopamine, Exendin-4, L-tyrosine, neurotransmitters that effect mood, depression, anorexia, addiction, basically brain and gut hormones that are as effective as GLP-1 in the respect that those effects take place regardless of whether we want them to or not.

    Which brings the basic elements that causes obesity into play, that being the food we're consuming. Are there elements, compounds, reasons why the vast majority of people (75%) of the population are overweight and obese. Are there endocrine-disrupting chemicals, or exogenous substances or mixtures that alters function(s) of the endocrine system and consequently causes adverse health effects like Ultra processed foods, phthalates and bisphenol which are BPA's for example. Do ultra processed foods have an effect on our endocrine system, yep, they sure do and considering of the 75% of processed foods consumed in the USA for example around 70% of those processed foods are ultra processed, and like GLP-1 antagonists, they work as well, helping to facilitate overeating and it's easy, people don't need to do anything special, it just happens, I digress.

    Why the media or the medical community are not putting this on the front burner is probably very political imo. Follow the money, with power and control surely close bedfellows. Personally a whole food diet puts this basic fundamental on pause, and there's no money promoting broccoli in the halls of the food and pharmaceutical industry, but I like to think it as a middle finger and subsequently that possible finger in the dike for gaining weight, a nice side effect.

    As a possible solution I would suggest that while a person is taking the trouble and expense taking GLP-1's to be proactive and that a possible dietary intervention take place with replacing some of your more processed foods and replacing them with a whole food option and this doesn't have to happen overnight, this can be a plan that can happens over years as well, just food for thought.
    neanderthin wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    chris_in_cal wrote: »
    sollyn23l2 wrote: »
    I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.

    I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.

    I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.

    The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.

    The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.

    {lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.

    {treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.

    Same outcome.

    I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.

    Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.

    Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.

    Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.

    Allow me to explain why I have zero empathy for that argument. As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do. Your diet completely changes from what you're used to. You can't buy a single thing in the store without poring over the label, then calling the manufacturer to verify that it's not made on shared machinery. Restaurant French fries? Dream on. They're made in shared fryers with wheat containing products. But, if I don't stick to it I get violently ill. For weeks. So no, "but... but... but... eating less is too hard" just doesn't really cut it with me. That being said, I'm not against pharmaceuticals for weight loss. I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
    I believe your comparing the commitment "task" your obligated to make based on a disease you have, specifically Celiac Disease, and your argument, which is I believe, if obese people just took their weight more seriously, like a disease, then they wouldn't need a GLP-1 antagonist and considering when you stop taking the drug they just end up gaining the weight back and are no better off and maybe worse metabolically than before they started, just reinforces this argument. I think that's the point your making.

    Your making a strawman argument which is a logical fallacy. Your making a completely different argument comparing celiac with overeating then taking an "attack position" based on your personal experience that Celiac Disease is the same as obesity and can be treated the same by just avoiding the thing that makes someone obese, which is overeating food.

    Obesity is from what I've read over the years a little more complicated than just eating too much. I'm certainly not saying that nothing can be done about it, but there needs to be a lot more research. One of the reasons why GLP-1 works so well is because people don't have to do anything, it's an automatic result. People like that, it's easy and it gets the desired results.

    We are now entering the twilight zone with GLP-1 antagonists, Amygdala, Dopamine, Exendin-4, L-tyrosine, neurotransmitters that effect mood, depression, anorexia, addiction, basically brain and gut hormones that are as effective as GLP-1 in the respect that those effects take place regardless of whether we want them to or not.

    Which brings the basic elements that causes obesity into play, that being the food we're consuming. Are there elements, compounds, reasons why the vast majority of people (75%) of the population are overweight and obese. Are there endocrine-disrupting chemicals, or exogenous substances or mixtures that alters function(s) of the endocrine system and consequently causes adverse health effects like Ultra processed foods, phthalates and bisphenol which are BPA's for example. Do ultra processed foods have an effect on our endocrine system, yep, they sure do and considering of the 75% of processed foods consumed in the USA for example around 70% of those processed foods are ultra processed, and like GLP-1 antagonists, they work as well, helping to facilitate overeating and it's easy, people don't need to do anything special, it just happens, I digress.

    Why the media or the medical community are not putting this on the front burner is probably very political imo. Follow the money, with power and control surely close bedfellows. Personally a whole food diet puts this basic fundamental on pause, and there's no money promoting broccoli in the halls of the food and pharmaceutical industry, but I like to think it as a middle finger and subsequently that possible finger in the dike for gaining weight, a nice side effect.

    As a possible solution I would suggest that while a person is taking the trouble and expense taking GLP-1's to be proactive and that a possible dietary intervention take place with replacing some of your more processed foods and replacing them with a whole food option and this doesn't have to happen overnight, this can be a plan that can happens over years as well, just food for thought.

    You can feel free to disagree. It's an opinion, not a fact. And my point is, neither is easy. I specifically stated I'm not against weight loss drugs, simply that it can become an issue when someone loses access to them. People can and should do what they feel is necessary for themselves. I was more referring to people who refuse to really do anything, yet still complain about it.

    That is such a broad vague statement that it really holds no meaning whatsoever imo. What do you mean refuse? (I'm obese and I will do absolutely nothing to lose weight) Almost all people that have gained weight have tried to lose weight at some point in their lives and many can calk up multiple excursions trying. Why it's not easy to lose weight is the million dollar question, and some of the the answer is buried in the GLP-1data. Now of course the path is to normalize obesity considering being overweight and obesity represents 75% and rising, because people refused to lose weight, sure, sounds legit. cheers

    And they shouldn't complain about it. That's not vague.
  • 1americangirl
    1americangirl Posts: 6 Member
    lose40450 wrote: »
    It's more than appetite suppression. I had been averaging 1400 - 1450 calories a day for 3 months and my weight just stayed within a 2 pound range. And it was miserable with the cravings and hunger. 1 week on Wegovy my daily average dropped to 1350 - the hunger and cravings were diminished considerably - and I dropped 1.8 pounds below the lowest weight I had been seeing the last 3 months. I know someone is going to say I wasn't counting carefully or accurately or whatever - but I'm counting by a consistent means - so one week at roughly 700 calories less and I dropped nearly 2 pounds - it's more than appetite suppression.

    I'm 50 and going through menopause. Prior to my early 40's I confidently believed in CICO but these days that math ain't mathing.

    I log almost daily in My Fitness Pal & have for years as part of my morning routine. The attached shows when I was working on weight loss without meds vs now. Look at the trend. I can't wait until I'm further out to watch the trend. Use your Reports function on MFP. It's your personal story & a very useful tool. Keep in mind I did a screenshot from the graphic that it exported & erased the weight numbers for privacy, added the red line because I keep up with anything that may effect my weight loss (in this case med intervention) - good & bad. I like raw data. Not excuses. I also log my muscle weight & fat %. I can tell when I'm working out & when I'm not by the longer term data.

  • ddsb1111
    ddsb1111 Posts: 885 Member
    edited July 2023
    I’m in the camp that you can use it if you want, it doesn’t really matter to me personally. That’s between you and your doctor.

    Apart from that what I’m seeing in some of the replies is that “you” don’t KNOW how many calories you’re consuming daily over an extended period of time by weighing your food and logging as accurately as possible. Or, that you’re not adhering to your diet. This is a really tough pill to swallow but we’ve all been there, and yes, it’s hard. But, it doesn’t make it any less true.

    There has been many insightful posts here particularly about hormones and when treated for an imbalance a regular diet will provide the same results. Leptin is the hormone that controls your appetite and tells you when you're full, and high leptin levels or leptin resistance can lead to overeating and weight gain. Ghrelin is the opposite of leptin. It tells you that you're hungry, but low ghrelin can make you feel hungrier and cause you to overeat. This is why it’s important to treat the imbalance, and once treated those hunger cues will normalize.

    When we (MFP) are talking about thermodynamics or CICO we are talking about the physics of losing, maintaining, or gaining fat. Hormones can effect water weight- no fun at all, but it is not causing you to gain fat weight. The only possible way for you to gain fat weight is eating more calories than you use.

    Studies reported to the National Library of Medicine do not support the hypothesis of an association between obesity and altered energy expenditure (EE). However your activity energy expenditure (AEE) may be lower under free-living conditions, which is representative of a more sedentary lifestyle. Therefore, an active lifestyle should translate in expected increases in daily EE and would consequently promote weight loss.

    Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4863259/

    I’m posting not to be a pain here, or lack any empathy, I assure you. It’s just that misleading posts are dangerous in that they tell others, and yourself, that it’s impossible without drugs to lose weight because [insert blame here]. I just don’t want anyone to feel helpless when they can be empowered by the fact that, even as a special snowflake, you’re still less than .001% different than anyone else.

    The argument that using medication is better than being obese, I agree with that. And it’s no one’s business but your own. But the reasoning that “nothing else works” is just not true. I apologize if this comes out as insulting. Although I do have high functioning autism I’m still responsible for the way I treat people and I hope to contribute to the conversation in a respectful way.


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