Wegovy
Replies
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It's more than appetite suppression. I had been averaging 1400 - 1450 calories a day for 3 months and my weight just stayed within a 2 pound range. And it was miserable with the cravings and hunger. 1 week on Wegovy my daily average dropped to 1350 - the hunger and cravings were diminished considerably - and I dropped 1.8 pounds below the lowest weight I had been seeing the last 3 months. I know someone is going to say I wasn't counting carefully or accurately or whatever - but I'm counting by a consistent means - so one week at roughly 700 calories less and I dropped nearly 2 pounds - it's more than appetite suppression.
I'm 50 and going through menopause. Prior to my early 40's I confidently believed in CICO but these days that math ain't mathing.
This is exactly appetite suppression. You're wrong to believe that decreasing your intake by 700 calories can't equate to a 2 pound weight loss because that first couple of weeks of decreased intake comes with a shedding of glycogen/water weight.
While, it helps your body metabolize sugar better, that in itself won't equate to weight loss. It's all about eating less calories and appetite suppression is what's doing it.
You are correct to point out that CICO always applies. But Semaglutide is demonstrably improving or 'speeding up' metabolism. This affects the CO side of the equation. It also massively affects appetite, which improves the CI side of the equation.
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I don't think I would describe its mechanism as improving metabolism
How does semaglutide work for weight loss?
Semaglutide is peptide that works by mimicking a hormone called glucagon-like peptide 1 (GLP-1), which targets an area of the brain that regulates appetite and food intake. By controlling blood sugar spikes and lowering blood sugar, as well as reducing appetite and cravings energy levels are more consistent3 -
Not that it necessarily discounts that six year old study, but...apressler3 wrote: »You are correct to point out that CICO always applies. But Semaglutide is demonstrably improving or 'speeding up' metabolism. This affects the CO side of the equation. It also massively affects appetite, which improves the CI side of the equation.
M. B. A., A. F., J. B. H. and T. K. [i.e. most of the authors] are full-time employees of, and hold shares in, Novo Nordisk A/S. A. B. has received research grants from Novo Nordisk. J. B. has received research, travel and accommodation grants within the submitted work from Novo Nordisk A/S, and advisory and speaker fees outside the submitted work from Novo Nordisk A/S.4 -
It's always a valid concern. But I am less concerned about corruption and fraud by the authors as I am about research into possible contradictions simply not being funded.Retroguy2000 wrote: »Not that it necessarily discounts that six year old study, but...
The other study, that I complained did not report on the fraction of subjects who were successful in maintaining weight loss, was also funded by Novo - who would have a financial interest in portraying their drugs as requiring a lifetime commitment. I have very good insurance and that would still mean a couple thousand dollars a year. I suspect Novo is not funding research into how people can maintain that weight loss without semaglutide.
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sollyn23l2 wrote: »I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.
I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.
I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.
The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.
The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.
{lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.
{treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.
Same outcome.
I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.
Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.
Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.
Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.
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paperpudding wrote: »I don't think I would describe its mechanism as improving metabolism
How does semaglutide work for weight loss?
Semaglutide is peptide that works by mimicking a hormone called glucagon-like peptide 1 (GLP-1), which targets an area of the brain that regulates appetite and food intake. By controlling blood sugar spikes and lowering blood sugar, as well as reducing appetite and cravings energy levels are more consistent
The study I cited above concluded "Semaglutide improved fasting and postprandial glucose and lipid metabolism." The study also finds the reduced blood sugar spikes your quote discusses. In fact, the reduced spikes are considered evidence of improved metabolism.
Sure, It's only one study. But I am having a similar experience to @lose40450 in that I track my calorie intake and expenditure pretty faithfully (or at least I track the same on wegovy as I did before wegovy). And the results with similar caloric deficits are different.
The main point is that the lived experience of many users is that there are things going on with this drug that are not explained well if appetite suppression is its only effect. The upshot of some points @Retroguy2000 was making is there is a lot of research yet to be done on it, and a lot more detailed explanation of how it works yet to be provided.0 -
Ok, I guess it is just semantics on what metabolism means.
I am not saying its only mechanism is by appetite suppression, clearly that is not the case or that class of meds would not be prescribed for diabetics to reduce blood sugar levels.
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chris_in_cal wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.
I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.
I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.
The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.
The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.
{lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.
{treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.
Same outcome.
I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.
Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.
Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.
Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.
Allow me to explain why I have zero empathy for that argument. As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do. Your diet completely changes from what you're used to. You can't buy a single thing in the store without poring over the label, then calling the manufacturer to verify that it's not made on shared machinery. Restaurant French fries? Dream on. They're made in shared fryers with wheat containing products. But, if I don't stick to it I get violently ill. For weeks. So no, "but... but... but... eating less is too hard" just doesn't really cut it with me. That being said, I'm not against pharmaceuticals for weight loss. I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
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I believe your comparing the commitment "task" your obligated to make based on a disease you have, specifically Celiac Disease, and your argument, which is I believe, if obese people just took their weight more seriously, like a disease, then they wouldn't need a GLP-1 antagonist and considering when you stop taking the drug they just end up gaining the weight back and are no better off and maybe worse metabolically than before they started, just reinforces this argument. I think that's the point your making.sollyn23l2 wrote: »chris_in_cal wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.
I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.
I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.
The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.
The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.
{lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.
{treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.
Same outcome.
I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.
Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.
Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.
Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.
Allow me to explain why I have zero empathy for that argument. As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do. Your diet completely changes from what you're used to. You can't buy a single thing in the store without poring over the label, then calling the manufacturer to verify that it's not made on shared machinery. Restaurant French fries? Dream on. They're made in shared fryers with wheat containing products. But, if I don't stick to it I get violently ill. For weeks. So no, "but... but... but... eating less is too hard" just doesn't really cut it with me. That being said, I'm not against pharmaceuticals for weight loss. I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
Your making a strawman argument which is a logical fallacy. Your making a completely different argument comparing celiac with overeating then taking an "attack position" based on your personal experience that Celiac Disease is the same as obesity and can be treated the same by just avoiding the thing that makes someone obese, which is overeating food.
Obesity is from what I've read over the years a little more complicated than just eating too much. I'm certainly not saying that nothing can be done about it, but there needs to be a lot more research. One of the reasons why GLP-1 works so well is because people don't have to do anything, it's an automatic result. People like that, it's easy and it gets the desired results.
We are now entering the twilight zone with GLP-1 antagonists, Amygdala, Dopamine, Exendin-4, L-tyrosine, neurotransmitters that effect mood, depression, anorexia, addiction, basically brain and gut hormones that are as effective as GLP-1 in the respect that those effects take place regardless of whether we want them to or not.
Which brings the basic elements that causes obesity into play, that being the food we're consuming. Are there elements, compounds, reasons why the vast majority of people (75%) of the population are overweight and obese. Are there endocrine-disrupting chemicals, or exogenous substances or mixtures that alters function(s) of the endocrine system and consequently causes adverse health effects like Ultra processed foods, phthalates and bisphenol which are BPA's for example. Do ultra processed foods have an effect on our endocrine system, yep, they sure do and considering of the 75% of processed foods consumed in the USA for example around 70% of those processed foods are ultra processed, and like GLP-1 antagonists, they work as well, helping to facilitate overeating and it's easy, people don't need to do anything special, it just happens, I digress.
Why the media or the medical community are not putting this on the front burner is probably very political imo. Follow the money, with power and control surely close bedfellows. Personally a whole food diet puts this basic fundamental on pause, and there's no money promoting broccoli in the halls of the food and pharmaceutical industry, but I like to think it as a middle finger and subsequently that possible finger in the dike for gaining weight, a nice side effect.
As a possible solution I would suggest that while a person is taking the trouble and expense taking GLP-1's to be proactive and that a possible dietary intervention take place with replacing some of your more processed foods and replacing them with a whole food option and this doesn't have to happen overnight, this can be a plan that can happens over years as well.
We have to stop this reductive thinking where the medical community medicates the symptoms and start attacking the root causes, and where have I heard this philosophy before, oh yeah, my grandmother. Just food for thought. Cheers2 -
neanderthin wrote: »
I believe your comparing the commitment "task" your obligated to make based on a disease you have, specifically Celiac Disease, and your argument, which is I believe, if obese people just took their weight more seriously, like a disease, then they wouldn't need a GLP-1 antagonist and considering when you stop taking the drug they just end up gaining the weight back and are no better off and maybe worse metabolically than before they started, just reinforces this argument. I think that's the point your making.sollyn23l2 wrote: »chris_in_cal wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.
I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.
I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.
The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.
The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.
{lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.
{treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.
Same outcome.
I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.
Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.
Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.
Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.
Allow me to explain why I have zero empathy for that argument. As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do. Your diet completely changes from what you're used to. You can't buy a single thing in the store without poring over the label, then calling the manufacturer to verify that it's not made on shared machinery. Restaurant French fries? Dream on. They're made in shared fryers with wheat containing products. But, if I don't stick to it I get violently ill. For weeks. So no, "but... but... but... eating less is too hard" just doesn't really cut it with me. That being said, I'm not against pharmaceuticals for weight loss. I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
Your making a strawman argument which is a logical fallacy. Your making a completely different argument comparing celiac with overeating then taking an "attack position" based on your personal experience that Celiac Disease is the same as obesity and can be treated the same by just avoiding the thing that makes someone obese, which is overeating food.
Obesity is from what I've read over the years a little more complicated than just eating too much. I'm certainly not saying that nothing can be done about it, but there needs to be a lot more research. One of the reasons why GLP-1 works so well is because people don't have to do anything, it's an automatic result. People like that, it's easy and it gets the desired results.
We are now entering the twilight zone with GLP-1 antagonists, Amygdala, Dopamine, Exendin-4, L-tyrosine, neurotransmitters that effect mood, depression, anorexia, addiction, basically brain and gut hormones that are as effective as GLP-1 in the respect that those effects take place regardless of whether we want them to or not.
Which brings the basic elements that causes obesity into play, that being the food we're consuming. Are there elements, compounds, reasons why the vast majority of people (75%) of the population are overweight and obese. Are there endocrine-disrupting chemicals, or exogenous substances or mixtures that alters function(s) of the endocrine system and consequently causes adverse health effects like Ultra processed foods, phthalates and bisphenol which are BPA's for example. Do ultra processed foods have an effect on our endocrine system, yep, they sure do and considering of the 75% of processed foods consumed in the USA for example around 70% of those processed foods are ultra processed, and like GLP-1 antagonists, they work as well, helping to facilitate overeating and it's easy, people don't need to do anything special, it just happens, I digress.
Why the media or the medical community are not putting this on the front burner is probably very political imo. Follow the money, with power and control surely close bedfellows. Personally a whole food diet puts this basic fundamental on pause, and there's no money promoting broccoli in the halls of the food and pharmaceutical industry, but I like to think it as a middle finger and subsequently that possible finger in the dike for gaining weight, a nice side effect.
As a possible solution I would suggest that while a person is taking the trouble and expense taking GLP-1's to be proactive and that a possible dietary intervention take place with replacing some of your more processed foods and replacing them with a whole food option and this doesn't have to happen overnight, this can be a plan that can happens over years as well, just food for thought.neanderthin wrote: »
I believe your comparing the commitment "task" your obligated to make based on a disease you have, specifically Celiac Disease, and your argument, which is I believe, if obese people just took their weight more seriously, like a disease, then they wouldn't need a GLP-1 antagonist and considering when you stop taking the drug they just end up gaining the weight back and are no better off and maybe worse metabolically than before they started, just reinforces this argument. I think that's the point your making.sollyn23l2 wrote: »chris_in_cal wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.
I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.
I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.
The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.
The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.
{lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.
{treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.
Same outcome.
I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.
Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.
Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.
Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.
Allow me to explain why I have zero empathy for that argument. As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do. Your diet completely changes from what you're used to. You can't buy a single thing in the store without poring over the label, then calling the manufacturer to verify that it's not made on shared machinery. Restaurant French fries? Dream on. They're made in shared fryers with wheat containing products. But, if I don't stick to it I get violently ill. For weeks. So no, "but... but... but... eating less is too hard" just doesn't really cut it with me. That being said, I'm not against pharmaceuticals for weight loss. I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
Your making a strawman argument which is a logical fallacy. Your making a completely different argument comparing celiac with overeating then taking an "attack position" based on your personal experience that Celiac Disease is the same as obesity and can be treated the same by just avoiding the thing that makes someone obese, which is overeating food.
Obesity is from what I've read over the years a little more complicated than just eating too much. I'm certainly not saying that nothing can be done about it, but there needs to be a lot more research. One of the reasons why GLP-1 works so well is because people don't have to do anything, it's an automatic result. People like that, it's easy and it gets the desired results.
We are now entering the twilight zone with GLP-1 antagonists, Amygdala, Dopamine, Exendin-4, L-tyrosine, neurotransmitters that effect mood, depression, anorexia, addiction, basically brain and gut hormones that are as effective as GLP-1 in the respect that those effects take place regardless of whether we want them to or not.
Which brings the basic elements that causes obesity into play, that being the food we're consuming. Are there elements, compounds, reasons why the vast majority of people (75%) of the population are overweight and obese. Are there endocrine-disrupting chemicals, or exogenous substances or mixtures that alters function(s) of the endocrine system and consequently causes adverse health effects like Ultra processed foods, phthalates and bisphenol which are BPA's for example. Do ultra processed foods have an effect on our endocrine system, yep, they sure do and considering of the 75% of processed foods consumed in the USA for example around 70% of those processed foods are ultra processed, and like GLP-1 antagonists, they work as well, helping to facilitate overeating and it's easy, people don't need to do anything special, it just happens, I digress.
Why the media or the medical community are not putting this on the front burner is probably very political imo. Follow the money, with power and control surely close bedfellows. Personally a whole food diet puts this basic fundamental on pause, and there's no money promoting broccoli in the halls of the food and pharmaceutical industry, but I like to think it as a middle finger and subsequently that possible finger in the dike for gaining weight, a nice side effect.
As a possible solution I would suggest that while a person is taking the trouble and expense taking GLP-1's to be proactive and that a possible dietary intervention take place with replacing some of your more processed foods and replacing them with a whole food option and this doesn't have to happen overnight, this can be a plan that can happens over years as well, just food for thought.
You can feel free to disagree. It's an opinion, not a fact. And my point is, neither is easy. I specifically stated I'm not against weight loss drugs, simply that it can become an issue when someone loses access to them. People can and should do what they feel is necessary for themselves. I was more referring to people who refuse to really do anything, yet still complain about it.2 -
I guess it was your "zero empathy" that compelled me to comment, funny how that works. Cheers1
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neanderthin wrote: »I guess it was your "zero empathy" that compelled me to comment, funny how that works. Cheers
Zero empathy may have been the wrong wording. I have compassion for people in that situation, but due to personal history, I don't really empathize with it.4 -
sollyn23l2 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »
I believe your comparing the commitment "task" your obligated to make based on a disease you have, specifically Celiac Disease, and your argument, which is I believe, if obese people just took their weight more seriously, like a disease, then they wouldn't need a GLP-1 antagonist and considering when you stop taking the drug they just end up gaining the weight back and are no better off and maybe worse metabolically than before they started, just reinforces this argument. I think that's the point your making.sollyn23l2 wrote: »chris_in_cal wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.
I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.
I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.
The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.
The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.
{lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.
{treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.
Same outcome.
I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.
Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.
Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.
Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.
Allow me to explain why I have zero empathy for that argument. As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do. Your diet completely changes from what you're used to. You can't buy a single thing in the store without poring over the label, then calling the manufacturer to verify that it's not made on shared machinery. Restaurant French fries? Dream on. They're made in shared fryers with wheat containing products. But, if I don't stick to it I get violently ill. For weeks. So no, "but... but... but... eating less is too hard" just doesn't really cut it with me. That being said, I'm not against pharmaceuticals for weight loss. I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
Your making a strawman argument which is a logical fallacy. Your making a completely different argument comparing celiac with overeating then taking an "attack position" based on your personal experience that Celiac Disease is the same as obesity and can be treated the same by just avoiding the thing that makes someone obese, which is overeating food.
Obesity is from what I've read over the years a little more complicated than just eating too much. I'm certainly not saying that nothing can be done about it, but there needs to be a lot more research. One of the reasons why GLP-1 works so well is because people don't have to do anything, it's an automatic result. People like that, it's easy and it gets the desired results.
We are now entering the twilight zone with GLP-1 antagonists, Amygdala, Dopamine, Exendin-4, L-tyrosine, neurotransmitters that effect mood, depression, anorexia, addiction, basically brain and gut hormones that are as effective as GLP-1 in the respect that those effects take place regardless of whether we want them to or not.
Which brings the basic elements that causes obesity into play, that being the food we're consuming. Are there elements, compounds, reasons why the vast majority of people (75%) of the population are overweight and obese. Are there endocrine-disrupting chemicals, or exogenous substances or mixtures that alters function(s) of the endocrine system and consequently causes adverse health effects like Ultra processed foods, phthalates and bisphenol which are BPA's for example. Do ultra processed foods have an effect on our endocrine system, yep, they sure do and considering of the 75% of processed foods consumed in the USA for example around 70% of those processed foods are ultra processed, and like GLP-1 antagonists, they work as well, helping to facilitate overeating and it's easy, people don't need to do anything special, it just happens, I digress.
Why the media or the medical community are not putting this on the front burner is probably very political imo. Follow the money, with power and control surely close bedfellows. Personally a whole food diet puts this basic fundamental on pause, and there's no money promoting broccoli in the halls of the food and pharmaceutical industry, but I like to think it as a middle finger and subsequently that possible finger in the dike for gaining weight, a nice side effect.
As a possible solution I would suggest that while a person is taking the trouble and expense taking GLP-1's to be proactive and that a possible dietary intervention take place with replacing some of your more processed foods and replacing them with a whole food option and this doesn't have to happen overnight, this can be a plan that can happens over years as well, just food for thought.neanderthin wrote: »
I believe your comparing the commitment "task" your obligated to make based on a disease you have, specifically Celiac Disease, and your argument, which is I believe, if obese people just took their weight more seriously, like a disease, then they wouldn't need a GLP-1 antagonist and considering when you stop taking the drug they just end up gaining the weight back and are no better off and maybe worse metabolically than before they started, just reinforces this argument. I think that's the point your making.sollyn23l2 wrote: »chris_in_cal wrote: »sollyn23l2 wrote: »I think that's the main problem with Wegovy/Ozempic. It's pretty universal that once the drug is stopped, the patient regains all the weight, because their appetite comes back.
I think this is misguided. These drugs are bring astounding results for obese people. The world is gobsmacked that this treatment has appeared.
I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.
The whole world is obese, as we all know. However, the part usually not said out loud is that there is nothing anywhere in the world that is currently available that consistently has formerly obese people maintain weight loss.
The message < CICO, lifestyle, move more >, which is so rational, obvious, and prevalent, is simply ineffective out in the world. Look around, look here at MFP, look at me.
{lifestyle} Person A is going to struggle with lifestyle, better choices, moving etc. and they may or may not lose the excess weight, at which point they will most likely gain it all back.
{treatment} Person B gets the treatment and almost certainly loses the excess weight, at which point they stop the treatment and most likely gain it all back.
Same outcome.
I won't critique or criticize an obese person who loses the excess weight. That's a good thing.
Everyone everywhere needs to learn how to maintain a big weight lose. If you, me, or anyone else tells you they have the answer to that dilemma. They are not being truthful. It is a huge unknown. All research and all anecdotes point toward THIS is the issue. Maintenance is an unknown. There is no known practical answer to this.
Finally having an answer to "how can I lose excess weight:" a drug treatment. That's a fantastic certainty that does not exist anywhere else in the area of obesity and weight loss and maintenance.
Celebrate the access to weightloss. There is more to discover in the big overall scheme.
Allow me to explain why I have zero empathy for that argument. As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do. Your diet completely changes from what you're used to. You can't buy a single thing in the store without poring over the label, then calling the manufacturer to verify that it's not made on shared machinery. Restaurant French fries? Dream on. They're made in shared fryers with wheat containing products. But, if I don't stick to it I get violently ill. For weeks. So no, "but... but... but... eating less is too hard" just doesn't really cut it with me. That being said, I'm not against pharmaceuticals for weight loss. I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
Your making a strawman argument which is a logical fallacy. Your making a completely different argument comparing celiac with overeating then taking an "attack position" based on your personal experience that Celiac Disease is the same as obesity and can be treated the same by just avoiding the thing that makes someone obese, which is overeating food.
Obesity is from what I've read over the years a little more complicated than just eating too much. I'm certainly not saying that nothing can be done about it, but there needs to be a lot more research. One of the reasons why GLP-1 works so well is because people don't have to do anything, it's an automatic result. People like that, it's easy and it gets the desired results.
We are now entering the twilight zone with GLP-1 antagonists, Amygdala, Dopamine, Exendin-4, L-tyrosine, neurotransmitters that effect mood, depression, anorexia, addiction, basically brain and gut hormones that are as effective as GLP-1 in the respect that those effects take place regardless of whether we want them to or not.
Which brings the basic elements that causes obesity into play, that being the food we're consuming. Are there elements, compounds, reasons why the vast majority of people (75%) of the population are overweight and obese. Are there endocrine-disrupting chemicals, or exogenous substances or mixtures that alters function(s) of the endocrine system and consequently causes adverse health effects like Ultra processed foods, phthalates and bisphenol which are BPA's for example. Do ultra processed foods have an effect on our endocrine system, yep, they sure do and considering of the 75% of processed foods consumed in the USA for example around 70% of those processed foods are ultra processed, and like GLP-1 antagonists, they work as well, helping to facilitate overeating and it's easy, people don't need to do anything special, it just happens, I digress.
Why the media or the medical community are not putting this on the front burner is probably very political imo. Follow the money, with power and control surely close bedfellows. Personally a whole food diet puts this basic fundamental on pause, and there's no money promoting broccoli in the halls of the food and pharmaceutical industry, but I like to think it as a middle finger and subsequently that possible finger in the dike for gaining weight, a nice side effect.
As a possible solution I would suggest that while a person is taking the trouble and expense taking GLP-1's to be proactive and that a possible dietary intervention take place with replacing some of your more processed foods and replacing them with a whole food option and this doesn't have to happen overnight, this can be a plan that can happens over years as well, just food for thought.
You can feel free to disagree. It's an opinion, not a fact. And my point is, neither is easy. I specifically stated I'm not against weight loss drugs, simply that it can become an issue when someone loses access to them. People can and should do what they feel is necessary for themselves. I was more referring to people who refuse to really do anything, yet still complain about it.
I understood that this was your point.2 -
sollyn23l2 wrote: »As someone with celiac disease, I had to cut out all wheat, barley, and rye. And I do mean all. Even cross contamination. It's a difficult thing to do.I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
My last GF struggled with that. I really had my eyes opened to what she dealt with on a forkful by forkful basis. I wish you well, it can't be easy.sollyn23l2 wrote: »I simply stated it becomes an issue when you no longer have access to the medication
This is true.0 -
chris_in_cal wrote: »I would target this treatment for how it falls apart when the treatment stops.
I *would not* . . .
Typos happen. Typing is hard.
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Well I ŵould if it is not intended to be forever.
It isn't like, for example, insulin in type 1 diabetics, that is intended to be a lifelong tx.
A treatment not intended to be permanent should have an exit plan10 -
I'm curious. Are the folks debating wegovy taking it currently? I don't want anyone to stop talking. I just wondered.
I'm on it. I don't have any medical conditions, yet. But I figure every day I carry this much extra weight is additional risk to my heart, my joints, my other organs, my hormones, for breast cancer... I already eat reasonable calories (I'd look it up, but I'm on this community thing right now - I wanna say I'm around 1200-1400), I'm vegetarian, I get activity, I drink water. But I couldn't sustain the 800 calories my body chemistry seems to need to lose weight at this level of fitness.
All that to say, if I need to keep taking shots for the rest of my life, fine. I will try some time off and learn which side of the median I'm on. If I am in the "gaining it back" half, back on the meds I go.2 -
harringtona1 wrote: »I wanna say I'm around 1200-1400
This is probably not the case. No adult, who is relatively free from physical limitations and moves around is consistantly eating 1200 kcal/day and carrying extra weight. It's science.
Sure, like winning the lottery, there are exceptions. It's pretty safe to assume you are not eating 1200 kcal/day and carrying extra weight.4 -
sollyn23l2 wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »I guess it was your "zero empathy" that compelled me to comment, funny how that works. Cheers
Zero empathy may have been the wrong wording. I have compassion for people in that situation, but due to personal history, I don't really empathize with it.
I agree. As someone with type 1 diabetes, who is not obese, I've learned that avoiding certain foods results in a healthier life, while eating other foods causes high blood sugar and illness. It's a choice everyday. Everyone can make the choice. Medical science comes a long way in helping to make that choice easier and that's great. But it's still a choice1 -
chris_in_cal wrote: »harringtona1 wrote: »I wanna say I'm around 1200-1400
This is probably not the case. No adult, who is relatively free from physical limitations and moves around is consistantly eating 1200 kcal/day and carrying extra weight. It's science.
Sure, like winning the lottery, there are exceptions. It's pretty safe to assume you are not eating 1200 kcal/day and carrying extra weight.
I am and I am. I wasn't eating 1200-1400 calories to get to here. But losing wasn't happening at 1.2-1.4k. My body was reportedly storing everything because I didn't have the hormones to use it. Also possibly why my energy has been bottomed out for so long. I still get my stuff done, but it's not a jolly time up and down these split level stairs.
Speaking of which, time for a walk with hubster.0 -
harringtona1 wrote: »My body was reportedly storing everything because I didn't have the hormones to use it.
I think you are writing that you have some kind of hormonal disorder. I hope you are able to get a clear diagnosis, and that it is treatable.
I still contend that nearly all adults without significant limitations are not going to carry and retain extra weight if the are consistently consuming approximately 1200 kcal/day.
Eating 10% more 1310 kcal/day, or 20% more 1430 kcal/day and then there is a better chance....
1 -
Yup. This is what my doctor told me. Need to get my body to use that food.
Plus - from a physics standpoint, it's not really as simple as cico. We don't weight our bodies in terms of calories.
Even our metabolisms are different from person to person. I've taken the test. I'm guessing others have. I admit it makes not much sense how they test it. But that's another point altogether.
Everything we take into our bodies is added mass even if it isn't caloric. Every drop of water doesn't necessarily come out. And fat cells, well all cells, love to capture water.
The other part of the mass equation is energy. For calorie speakers, this means different calories are used in different ways.
I've been to the medical profs. Had the tests. Tried things out. Wegovy works while I'm taking it. It wouldn't surprise me if stopping it will make my body go back to inefficient use if calories and water etc. It's not just appetite.
But that's just my experience using it and not using it, cutting calories and maintaining set weight...1 -
harringtona1 wrote: »Wegovy works while I'm taking it. It wouldn't surprise me if stopping it will make my body go back to inefficient use if calories and water etc. It's not just appetite.
But that's just my experience using it and not using it, cutting calories and maintaining set weight...
Wegovy/Ozempic/Semaglutide all the same drug, and it was developed to treat diabetes. It absolutely affects your endocrine system. So very clearly more than just an appetite suppressant. The human endocrine system is… I think the medical term is “black magic?” In other words, some parts of what the drug is doing is better understood than others.
I’m glad it’s working for you, but 1200 calories is… trippy, man, trippy.
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harringtona1 wrote: »Everything we take into our bodies is added mass even if it isn't caloric.
Do you complete your food diary sometimes? Everyday? Is it viewable by your MFP friends or closed?1 -
I do the food diary, yup. Just getting back into it after a long, brutal vacation (before you roll your eyes, it was an anniversary trip for my sister in law). But before that, I was doing pretty well. And yeah I'm accountable there to my friends. They see it all.
Do you use the food diary? I think it's super useful.1 -
harringtona1 wrote: »Do you use the food diary? I think it's super useful.
In my long MFP career it's possible to look at my weight chart and match it with my food logging chart. When I log, I move toward my goal weight. When I don't log it's pretty much chaos.
Now that you are back, try a week or so of real tight 1300-1400 days, and check in with how that effects your scale.1 -
I love this ancient thread: logging-accuracy-consistency-and-youre-probably-eating-more-than-you-think2
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I just finished my 4 weeks of 1.0 shots and have lost 9 lbs in 3 months. I take the shot Thursday night and have side effects for two days. I feel a little nauseous the rest of the week. I only ate the BRAT diet yesterday.0
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@Kimma41 While I personally have no experience with wegovy/etc, there is a tiktoker that I follower who uses something similar called mounjaro and has went off of it and no regained more than like a bouncing 5lb and her username there is thegeriatricmillennial, I hope that is helpful.0
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coffeeandtruecrime wrote: »@Kimma41 While I personally have no experience with wegovy/etc, there is a tiktoker that I follower who uses something similar called mounjaro and has went off of it and no regained more than like a bouncing 5lb and her username there is thegeriatricmillennial, I hope that is helpful.
That's normal in any sampling. Some people will also have lost no weight taking mourjaro, it's all factored into the results. 5000 participants, 5000 individual reactions, responses and results are imputed onto a graph which results in a spectrum of compliance etc.1
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