Body Recomp & Hunger

PAV8888

A couple of things to consider.

The fact that the estimation says 200 Cal doesn't mean 200 Cal.

Dynamic body is dynamic. Watch it because yes, for many of us on MFP we are much more dynamically opposed to deficits and much LESS to surplus. So the resistance to increase is less, perhaps, than resistance to decrease.

But you might be surprised as to how much you might be able to push calories up without long term energy storage (i.e. fat) increase.

Also you were recently losing, weren't you? How long was that process and how long has it been since then? I would expect multiples of several months before all hormonal perturbations settle. I don't want to say aloud the words at least "as long as you were losing or a year or two"... but it would definitely be more than a few months till you're settled down and your hunger signals are no longer influenced by your previous deficit.

So perhaps push up your intake a bit, but carefully.

The other thing is... the majoring in the minors bits for people who are just starting.... but which might make a difference where you're at.

It's 225 Cal, right? How about you "time" your boiled eggs (concur on fullness for calories bit myself too) before your exercise or have your boiled potatoes and eggs right after (or a combination of before after you experiment with)? I admit that I would probably have a snickers bar or a vanilla cone on my way to the class (~20 minutes for me I think), but you might be brave and have apples (probably ~30 minutes for me). This might both make your class more energetic and if you follow up with your eggs and potatoes still come within the calories

(Carbs/energy before; protein/fat/carbs or even just carbs soon after to keep going)

Please note the above come from personal experiments so I'm just throwing them out as ideas

Last but not least, if I remember your pics correctly, you've done an impressive job within normal weight to go lower in the range.

Recomp implies that you're reducing fat levels and using the energy in that fat to build muscle. In effect you're still eating at a small deficit.

But the fat level has to be available in excess to be tapped easily. In your case it may be harder to tap into and by that I mean that your hormones/hunger may act to prevent depletion.

If you fully eat at maintenance you would still build muscle which is very slow as covered. Your percentage fat will still go down. But the weight number would increase very slowly.

So I guess ... two kinds of recomp with one being essentially longer term deficit and the other closer to maintenance.

BTW for most of us this level of precision is too much and the reality is that the whole process is slow....

But, overall, me thinks that you have room perhaps to experiment with adding the calories and seeing how you're feeling and how the scale is behaving. Carefully given the holidays etc

ddsb1111

@PAV8888 Your post blew my mind in the best way. It examined the nuances that I had a feeling I was missing but wouldn’t be obvious to me as a newbie.

The fact that the estimation says 200 Cal doesn't mean 200 Cal.

Dynamic body is dynamic. Watch it because yes, for many of us on MFP we are much more dynamically opposed to deficits and much LESS to surplus. So the resistance to increase is less, perhaps, than resistance to decrease. But you might be surprised as to how much you might be able to push calories up without long term energy storage (i.e. fat) increase.

I was wondering about this. Recomp seems to be a different ballgame than losing weight, and so far what I “know” about calories and satiation isn’t exactly applying to what’s happening with me in recomp. If I don’t increase activity I’m fine, but I’m trying to tweak bf% now and remain satiated and the maths not mathing. This validates what I feel is happening.

Also you were recently losing, weren't you? How long was that process and how long has it been since then? I would expect multiples of several months before all hormonal perturbations settle. I don't want to say aloud the words at least "as long as you were losing or a year or two"... but it would definitely be more than a few months till you're settled down and your hunger signals are no longer influenced by your previous deficit.

I was zigzagging from May-June, making minimal progress. July-Sept I took it very seriously and lost pretty much all the weight or about 20 lbs in 3 months. I’ve been maintaining since Oct so not long. It’s very likely my hormones haven’t settled down or stabilized. This makes me wonder if I should maintain for a few months before starting a new fitness adventure if you will. Or just doing something so small where it doesn’t effect my maintenance routine too much.

It's 225 Cal, right? How about you "time" your boiled eggs (concur on fullness for calories bit myself too) before your exercise or have your boiled potatoes and eggs right after (or a combination of before after you experiment with)? I admit that I would probably have a snickers bar or a vanilla cone on my way to the class (~20 minutes for me I think), but you might be brave and have apples (probably ~30 minutes for me). This might both make your class more energetic and if you follow up with your eggs and potatoes still come within the calories

So this is where meal timing might actually matter?! Thanks for the suggestions, it’s a good place to start! I’ve changed none of my meal timing, just the speculated calorie increase and it’s pretty uncomfortable.

(Carbs/energy before; protein/fat/carbs or even just carbs soon after to keep going)

Another thing I didn’t know. Ty!

Last but not least, if I remember your pics correctly, you've done an impressive job within normal weight to go lower in the range.

Recomp implies that you're reducing fat levels and using the energy in that fat to build muscle. In effect you're still eating at a small deficit.

But the fat level has to be available in excess to be tapped easily. In your case it may be harder to tap into and by that I mean that your hormones/hunger may act to prevent depletion.

If you fully eat at maintenance you would still build muscle which is very slow as covered. Your percentage fat will still go down. But the weight number would increase very slowly.

So I guess ... two kinds of recomp with one being essentially longer term deficit and the other closer to maintenance.

BTW for most of us this level of precision is too much and the reality is that the whole process is slow....

You’re correct. I’m at the lower end of my BMI but not teetering my any means. It says I’m BMI 20 and I believe the end is something like 18.5. I honestly don’t know what my BF% is, but I can grab thick folds on my stomach and thighs, which is fine, but I’d just like to reduce that a little and replace it with endurance, strength, and a nicer shape overall. I’m curious if my hunger signals are trying to prevent depletion and it’s not something else, that’s a good point. I would be okay gaining a couple lbs in a year if it was replacing fat with muscle and I didn’t feel hungry all the time. That would actually be a win for me.I’d also be okay with being at a tiny deficit and building muscle to maintain my weight, but I didn’t think we could do that?

You’re right, this does seem to be more about precision and too much for most people. I figured if I’m going to maintain and focus on that, I might as well make some continued positive progress along the way. I think once the hiccups have been resolved it might actually be enjoyable. That’s the hope anyway.

AnnPT77

Are you assuming your exercise will increase your appetite, or experiencing that now? (I understand that your appetite went up when training in the past.) Expectations have power. Suggestion: Make a plan that you think will fuel/support your exercise, and invest some belief in it. (I know that's hard.)

Just personal experience: Lifting is more inclined to make me hungry, and rowing/biking really doesn't, even fairly intense paces of those. (Of course, if I bike for multiple hours, I may want a snack in there just for energy level).

From reading posts here for years, the appetite reactions to different exercise types tend to be quite individualized.

For myself, I experimented with eating around the lifting workouts, and found something that better helped manage appetite. For me, a little bit of fast-ish carbs right before the workout (dried fruit, for a while caramel green apple pop (basically sugar on on stick, not that many calories)); plus some extra protein after: That was helpful. It was just a redistribution of my daily calories, not more of them.

Heck, the effect could be as much psychological as physical, but I don't really care, as long as it works.

I suspect the details would vary for others, too . . . so I'm suggesting the experiment, not my specific routine. Try something for a few workouts in a row to let it settle in a bit, see what you think. (Riverside's right about changes in routine needing some time).

Couple of other points of agreement with others: Unless you're already high, it would be worth experimenting with increasing protein (across your day). Many people find that filling, and you want plenty anyway to provide the right substrate for fitness improvements. Veggies/fruits and so-called whole foods tend to be more filling for a lot of people, so if you have a fair fraction of refined or highly-processed foods in your eating, tweaking that might help.

I also agree with PAV that you may find your maintenance calorie needs increasing a bit over the next few weeks, if there's been some adaptive thermogenesis in the picture. You may gradually be able to eat a little more.

ddsb1111 wrote: »

claireychn074 wrote: »

My experience is the opposite to what you want - but hear me out. I lift weights and my appetite shot through the roof. But it turns out that I needed the extra calories just to maintain. I eat a lot for my height and build.

I found jogging never increases my appetite, but swimming did. Walking in the cold air increased my appetite, but walking in the summer heat didn’t. Steady state LISS probably had the least impact for me, but weights had the biggest impact.

I hear ya. When I got a trainer and had a lifting regiment I constantly thought about food and was hungry. It really messed with my mind tbh. But I miss the endorphins and I don’t want to be skinny-fat either. Interesting about the temperature of the air effecting your hunger! Sometimes it’s hard to pinpoint the correlation. Ideally I want to find something that changes my body, doesn’t make me hungry, but that I also enjoy. I might be asking for a lot haha! Did the LISS change your body shape much?

If you don't want to be under-muscled ("skinny fat"), then you're going to need a strength challenge of some type in the mix.

Technically, LISS is not an exercise modality, it's a pace. Some so-called cardio things done at LISS pacing have little strength challenge, some have more. That matters to whether your body shape will be changed. Every form of "cardio" doesn't have the same body or fitness effect, whether LISS, MISS, HISS, or interval pacing. (Yes, HISS is a thing, a short thing; it doesn't get much press.)

Personally, I wouldn't choose an exercise regimen based on how hungry it makes me feel (though I'd tweak my eating as needed to manage hunger, obviously, and maybe phase in the new activity's volume/frequency/intensity for the same reason).

Rationally, one ought to choose an exercise routine based on fitness goals and enjoyment (or at least tolerability/practicality). Realistically, I give too much weight to enjoyment over fitness goals, personally. I don't endorse my character faults, though.

**

Cranky afterthought: I don't like the calculator at Tdeecalculator.net. Five activity levels with vague descriptions? Ehhh. If you want to consider a different TDEE calculator, maybe take a look at Sailrabbit.com/bmr for more levels, better descriptions, multiple formulas. Just my bias, though . . . and it's got a crazy-ugly user interface at first glance.

I'd also observe that the type/intensity of exercise you do matters calorically. I burn probably at least twice as many calories via an hour of sustainable but energetic cycling or rowing, vs. a hour of yoga. I'm guessing that might affect appetite long term, and I do want to be eating every delicious exercise calorie I can.

There's nothing wrong with TDEE method: You can use an average number for mixed activities, but you may see differences in appetite or on the scale if you change your routine mix of them. Fuel/calorie demands probably aren't the only thing that can affect appetite with changes in activity, but it seems like that would be a factor in the mix.

Retroguy2000

ddsb1111 wrote: »

I’d also be okay with being at a tiny deficit and building muscle to maintain my weight, but I didn’t think we could do that?

Since we are talking details, it sounds like your main goal is to reduce your body fat % a little? i.e. it's not to maintain your weight as is. Can you maintain this weight while building muscle and lowering fat, thus reducing your body fat %? Yes, in theory you can. The more of these boxes you tick, the more successful you'll be at it:

1. New lifter, i.e. beginner gains still to come.
2. Not close to lean. It sounds like you fail this check.
3. Very small deficit.

You could still get to your goal of same weight with lower body fat eventually, but it won't be a very time efficient path. It would be more time effective to focus on fat loss first to get your body fat % where you're happy with it. By all means, lift during this time. Just don't expect a lot of muscle growth. Once your body fat % is where you want, maingain from there, i.e. return to maintenance with a very small surplus (100-200) and focus on the lifting. If over time you feel your waist or hips etc. are gaining too much fat, go back to maintenance or a small deficit for a while.

Re your OP, IMO you should focus on zone 2 cardio. Brisk walks, low effort cycling, that sort of thing. In my experience, strenuous cardio or a really good weights session can produce not only more hunger, but also reduced NEAT for a portion of the remainder of the day. Thus when adding say 400 exercise calories burned into MFP and thinking you can eat 400 more, but your NEAT drops by say 200, if you actually eat back all those exercise calories you'll be in a surplus. OTOH, a lower effort cardio session is easier, and doesn't result in reduced NEAT or increased hunger.

As for food, focus on protein and fiber of course to feel satiated, and help with muscle building. With weights, I find it best to plan eating around the session time into my daily totals, e.g. a snack an hour before, and soon after, both with some protein.

ddsb1111

@AnnPT77

Are you assuming your exercise will increase your appetite, or experiencing that now? (I understand that your appetite went up when training in the past.) Expectations have power. Suggestion: Make a plan that you think will fuel/support your exercise, and invest some belief in it. (I know that's hard.)

It was the case before so I chose Pilates this time vs lifting and I’m having a similar reaction to ongoing hunger. It’s likely due to the combination of increased activity, macros, food timing, and my recent weight loss. Those are a lot of variables for me to figure out 🤦🏼‍♀️.

For me, a little bit of fast-ish carbs right before the workout (dried fruit, for a while caramel green apple pop (basically sugar on on stick, not that many calories)); plus some extra protein after: That was helpful. It was just a redistribution of my daily calories, not more of them.

This is a suggestion I haven’t tried and sounds simple enough. I never considered timing before and hopefully that would resolve some issues. I could play with my overall protein macros as well.

I also agree with PAV that you may find your maintenance calorie needs increasing a bit over the next few weeks, if there's been some adaptive thermogenesis in the picture. You may gradually be able to eat a little more.

I’ve been a little in denial about that but it might be the case. I might need to stabilize and get through the holidays before trying Recomp the way I was hoping to. Definitely not what I expected for some reason.

Rationally, one ought to choose an exercise routine based on fitness goals and enjoyment (or at least tolerability/practicality). Realistically, I give too much weight to enjoyment over fitness goals, personally. I don't endorse my character faults, though.

Haha! I tend to agree. If I can’t have fun then I know for a fact I won’t stick to it so it’s pretty important. But I also want results. These muscles are going to build themselves.

If you don't want to be under-muscled ("skinny fat"), then you're going to need a strength challenge of some type in the mix.

I thought that was the case. So I can’t just walk on the treadmill to avoid hunger and expect my body to look much different. Total bummer but what can ya do 😆.

Cranky afterthought: I don't like the calculator at Tdeecalculator.net. Five activity levels with vague descriptions? Ehhh.

I know what you mean, I think our own data is the best calculator. I was surprised that their calculations accurately reflected my data. I wanted to see how much of an outlier I was and, according to them, I’m not even a little bit.

I'd also observe that the type/intensity of exercise you do matters calorically. I burn probably at least twice as many calories via an hour of sustainable but energetic cycling or rowing, vs. a hour of yoga. I'm guessing that might affect appetite long term, and I do want to be eating every delicious exercise calorie I can.

I just want the exercise that I like, provides recomp results, and doesn’t make me hungry after those calories have been replenished, know what I mean? If I burn 100 or 500, I don’t mind either one as long as it doesn’t come back to haunt me later. I want to eat it then forget it 🙏🏻. I also want it to be something I enjoy as well. Like Pru says, Is it #worththecalories?

Heck, the effect could be as much psychological as physical, but I don't really care, as long as it works.

💯!!!

ddsb1111

@Retroguy2000

Re your OP, IMO you should focus on zone 2 cardio. Brisk walks, low effort cycling, that sort of thing. In my experience, strenuous cardio or a really good weights session can produce not only more hunger, but also reduced NEAT for a portion of the remainder of the day. Thus when adding say 400 exercise calories burned into MFP and thinking you can eat 400 more, but your NEAT drops by say 200, if you actually eat back all those exercise calories you'll be in a surplus. OTOH, a lower effort cardio session is easier, and doesn't result in reduced NEAT or increased hunger.

Hmm, this is interesting. I have a feeling you’re right and this might be the best logical next step. My hunger and NEAT are greatly effected by intense workouts apparently. It seems I have such a small range to work with. If I continue to lose weight to reach my desired body fat % I’ll probably hit the underweight mark. Is that okay if I plan on returning to maintenance with a very small surplus (100-200) and focus on the lifting?

AnnPT77

Retroguy2000 wrote: »

ddsb1111 wrote: »

I’d also be okay with being at a tiny deficit and building muscle to maintain my weight, but I didn’t think we could do that?

Since we are talking details, it sounds like your main goal is to reduce your body fat % a little? i.e. it's not to maintain your weight as is. Can you maintain this weight while building muscle and lowering fat, thus reducing your body fat %? Yes, in theory you can. The more of these boxes you tick, the more successful you'll be at it:

1. New lifter, i.e. beginner gains still to come.
2. Not close to lean. It sounds like you fail this check.
3. Very small deficit.

You could still get to your goal of same weight with lower body fat eventually, but it won't be a very time efficient path. It would be more time effective to focus on fat loss first to get your body fat % where you're happy with it. By all means, lift during this time. Just don't expect a lot of muscle growth. Once your body fat % is where you want, maingain from there, i.e. return to maintenance with a very small surplus (100-200) and focus on the lifting. If over time you feel your waist or hips etc. are gaining too much fat, go back to maintenance or a small deficit for a while.

Re your OP, IMO you should focus on zone 2 cardio. Brisk walks, low effort cycling, that sort of thing. In my experience, strenuous cardio or a really good weights session can produce not only more hunger, but also reduced NEAT for a portion of the remainder of the day. Thus when adding say 400 exercise calories burned into MFP and thinking you can eat 400 more, but your NEAT drops by say 200, if you actually eat back all those exercise calories you'll be in a surplus. OTOH, a lower effort cardio session is easier, and doesn't result in reduced NEAT or increased hunger.

As for food, focus on protein and fiber of course to feel satiated, and help with muscle building. With weights, I find it best to plan eating around the session time into my daily totals, e.g. a snack an hour before, and soon after, both with some protein.

It's just a quibble, but I think that's situational (the bolded). The fitter a person becomes, the higher volume/intensity of cardio they can do routinely and not experience a noticeable NEAT penalty.

Elite endurance athletes need to eat huge levels of calories compared to us regular duffers, even reasonably fit/active regular duffers. Yeah, their zone 2 is arithmetically different from mine, but I'll guarantee they do a reasonable volume of Z3-4, and some Z5, routinely. But heck, even a cardio-frequent duffer like me can mix in Z3-4 and occasional Z5 without a noticeable NEAT calorie drop . . . or at least that's been my experience.

Managing volume and recovery is subtle, though, sure . . . and it matters for calorie reasons as well as fitness reasons.

And I agree on the general concept that overdoing exercise for current fitness level will likely have a NEAT calorie penalty. I just think the definition of "overdoing" is more nuanced.

I have a lot of respect for your opinions, Retro, but I think you sound more like a lifting guy than an experienced cardio guy - even though you probably do some cardio (I hope).

For sure we agree about timing eating around workouts as a potential strategy for managing appetite and performance. :flowerforyou:

AnnPT77

ddsb1111 wrote: »

@Retroguy2000

Re your OP, IMO you should focus on zone 2 cardio. Brisk walks, low effort cycling, that sort of thing. In my experience, strenuous cardio or a really good weights session can produce not only more hunger, but also reduced NEAT for a portion of the remainder of the day. Thus when adding say 400 exercise calories burned into MFP and thinking you can eat 400 more, but your NEAT drops by say 200, if you actually eat back all those exercise calories you'll be in a surplus. OTOH, a lower effort cardio session is easier, and doesn't result in reduced NEAT or increased hunger.

Hmm, this is interesting. I have a feeling you’re right and this might be the best logical next step. My hunger and NEAT are greatly effected by intense workouts apparently. It seems I have such a small range to work with. If I continue to lose weight to reach my desired body fat % I’ll probably hit the underweight mark. Is that okay if I plan on returning to maintenance with a very small surplus (100-200) and focus on the lifting?

What body fat level are you trying to reach? Underweight even for women usually isn't a healthy thing, unless one's body configuration (skeletal dimensions, breast size) is statistically pretty unusual.

If it were me, I wouldn't go all the way to underweight to start maintaining (or a small surplus) for recomp. Underweight for women can also have undesirable hormonal-health consequences.

ETA a BTW: If you're fairly new to the type/amount of cardio you're considering, I agree with starting with Z2, and building volume before intensity, generally.

Retroguy2000

ddsb1111 wrote: »

@Retroguy2000
Hmm, this is interesting. I have a feeling you’re right and this might be the best logical next step. My hunger and NEAT are greatly effected by intense workouts apparently. It seems I have such a small range to work with. If I continue to lose weight to reach my desired body fat % I’ll probably hit the underweight mark. Is that okay if I plan on returning to maintenance with a very small surplus (100-200) and focus on the lifting?

You've probably experienced the same as myself after some workouts. You're wiped, you're taking it easy on the sofa for a while. You're not moving around as much, maybe doing fewer chores, subconsciously fidgeting less, that sort of thing. That can be a lot of NEAT calories not being burned that you usually would.

Wrt your desired bf % being underweight, what do you mean by "underweight"? BMI? If so, yeah maybe that's going too far. It's harder to get an accurate body fat % reading, home scales are typically terrible at that.

Assuming you have a reliable body fat % reading, or you're estimating based on online pics showing side by sides of various bf% levels, if you're getting down to 10% for a guy, or 17% for a woman, that's getting quite low. You might experience more hunger, more fatigue, reduced sex drive, gaunt look, reduced ability to heal or fight infection, if female it could affect your period, etc. If in doubt, post pics for neutral opinions here.

Lift anyway. Progressive overload. Structured program. I'm just saying to have different expectations on muscle gain if doing that while trying to lose weight vs while maingaining.

EDIT: I may have misunderstood. No, don't overshoot going down. Get to a level you're comfortable with and maingain from there. It's fine for the weight on the scale to go up a little over time if your body composition is looking better.

Retroguy2000

Here's a good example from a YouTuber I follow, Mark Lewis, with him and his wife talking about her fitness journey. This is why you don't aim to overshoot on the way down.

Key part at 15m-18m, should be time stamped. She was focused on her weight, the number on the scale, thinking she could only look better if that number went down. She started lifting and working out more. She gained 4.4 pounds while greatly improving body composition and posture, and she likes the way she looks here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXjbINwTfA&t=900s

ddsb1111

What body fat level are you trying to reach? Underweight even for women usually isn't a healthy thing, unless one's body configuration (skeletal dimensions, breast size) is ustatistically pretty unusual.

Honestly, I’m not sure because I don’t know my BF %. I’d like to reduce the fat from my inner thighs that chaf and the fat roll I have on my abdomen that is much larger than it was the last time I was at this exact weight, as well as reduce the overall size of my arms for the same reason. I want to feel stronger, and as I age I’m realizing how important adding/maintaining muscle is. Since I can’t spot reduce I have to come up with a plan to reduce the fat and maintain my weight.

We can use my Renpho scale as a baseline, even though that’s a shot in the dark. It says I’m 21% BF. I doubt that.

Wrt your desired bf % being underweight, what do you mean by "underweight"? BMI? If so, yeah maybe that's going too far. It's harder to get an accurate body fat % reading, home scales are typically terrible at that.

I’m 5-9 lb away from being underweight at my current maintenance range. As for BF % it says I’m 7% above the top end of Essential fat. I really don’t know what I want my BF % to be I just want to change the shape I currently have, which is a lot less muscle than I had before kids, to be stronger & leaner. I don’t know how to do that without the nagging hunger and reduced NEAT (I’m glad that was mentioned).

PAV8888

This makes me wonder if I should maintain for a few months before starting a new fitness adventure if you will. Or just doing something so small where it doesn’t effect my maintenance routine too much.

This is most certainly what *I* did. Probably closer to the second part (doing things that didn't affect my new maintenance routine much in either direction). Of course I was coming from a different perspective (obese) and the maintenance part was, in my mind, CRITICAL.

Basically I started from "learned helplessness" = I can't possibly lose weight and maintain the loss successfully. To: "you know, I can actually lose weight for more than a few months at a time and arrange things so that I don't give up". To: I really do need to stick the landing/there is nothing more important than the landing.

So I went into the landing fully prepared to fight the statistics. And the statistics are fairly dismal. So I can't in any way shape or form find fault with someone spending months in making sure the landing worked.

Of course I was coming from more than a year in deficit... albeit stopping at a point of significantly more plentiful energy reserves than you (i.e. my stopping is closer to where you started--and that's not even counting relative fat % between M-F). But basically it took more than a year of stable weight and maintenance eating before "I woke up one morning" and felt both mentally and physically that maintenance and my maintenance calories were my default and normal and that it was 'easier' to continue as I was. and that my hunger cues COULD be trusted.


While the standard bodybuilding cycle of leaning out and then bulking may get the best/fastest/most impressive results, to me it does NOT sound like it would be a good adventure for you.

Sometimes what's optimum is finding the right balanced way of getting where we want.

Retroguy2000

AnnPT77 wrote: »

I have a lot of respect for your opinions, Retro, but I think you sound more like a lifting guy than an experienced cardio guy - even though you probably do some cardio (I hope).

Thank you, and likewise back to you. You're right about me there for sure. It's a fair point to quibble about the situational stuff. I assume we know it when we see it. For example, my cardio is typically light on my indoor recumbent bike for say 40 mins at a consistent pace. I can feel fine after, not feeling any effect on hunger or NEAT. I also go out inline skating weather permitting, typically an hour, and that includes going up some short hills or slopes which takes quite a bit of effort (50's, around 215 pounds currently). I'm probably getting some HIIT in there in segments, forgive me if I'm using the wrong terms, I don't use a fitness tracker or heart rate tracker. I just know I'm huffing and puffing at times, and over time my need for brief stops is going down, and my total time for the same distance is going down. And I definitely feel more hunger and NEAT reduction after those sessions, than on my bike.

ddsb1111

Retroguy2000 wrote: »

Here's a good example from a YouTuber I follow, Mark Lewis, with him and his wife talking about her fitness journey. This is why you don't aim to overshoot on the way down.

Key part at 15m-18m, should be time stamped. She was focused on her weight, the number on the scale, thinking she could only look better if that number went down. She started lifting and working out more. She gained 4.4 pounds while greatly improving body composition and posture, and she likes the way she looks here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXjbINwTfA&t=900s

Thanks for linking this video I’ll definitely take a look. A lot of women my age are stuck on a ridiculous number created by movies and magazines from when we were teens. It was a big deal in my generation to have the lowest number possible. I’m relieved the newer gens have shifted that thinking by quite a lot and embrace strength, curves, and food!

I’m comfortable with recomp and not a specific number. I wish I could figure out the hunger and neat issue though so I can knock out my workout and move on 😊. So much respect for the vets on this side of the fence cause this is tricky!

ddsb1111

While the standard bodybuilding cycle of leaning out and then bulking may get the best/fastest/most impressive results, to me it does NOT sound like it would be a good adventure for you.

Sometimes what's optimum is finding the right balanced way of getting where we want.

No, I wouldn’t like that process, not even a little bit. Not judging what others may want to do, but I’m not a competitor, heck I’m not even an athlete! I’m okay taking my time and enjoying the process. I mean, what else am I gonna do? I’m not going anywhere… I hope.

As an aside, thank you for providing unbiased advice even though we’re on different parts of the journey. It’s pretty incredible what you’ve accomplished and I think your perspective and attitude to sticking that landing and taking your time is how I would have wanted to do it.

AnnPT77

@ddsb1111, I hope you're realizing that "essential fat" is defined as the level of fat needed for healthy physiological functioning, not the amount it's essential to get down to for best health?

Some elite athletes or female body builders might get below that, either for performance reasons (less weight to propel through space) or because bodybuilders do have some compensatory extra body mass in the form of muscle.

For reference, though this is BMIs rather than BF%:

https://www.runnersworld.com/health-injuries/a20793992/bmis-of-champions-womens-edition/

If you're actually at 21%, that's pretty reasonable ("fitness" level of body fat on most rankings is 20-24% for women). I'm not arguing with your contention that you'd prefer to lose a bit more fat, either, just saying you may be in a good spot to start maintaining weight and building fitness.

If you want another estimate of body fat, you could run one of the online "Navy Body Fat" calculators online, such as this one:

https://www.calculator.net/body-fat-calculator.html

It's just another estimate, not gospel, but looking at multiple free sources/estimates may give you a better feel for probable range. Another source is the visual charts (photos or drawings) of what particular body fat levels look like on women (though body configuration does matter!).

I used to have a link to one that used more measurements as input, but I can't find it just now.

Retroguy2000

In case of any ambiguity, when I talked about maingaining earlier I wasn't referring to bulk/cut cycles. Say you're happy with your waist size. Lift, progressive overload, small calorie surplus, and if after some weeks you feel your waist size is going up a little, or you're getting a little softer around there (that may not happen), just return to maintenance or a slight deficit for a few weeks. That's not even a diet imo, it's just going from +0 to +200, to +0 to -200, for two or three weeks maybe.

AnnPT77

ddsb1111 wrote: »

Retroguy2000 wrote: »

Here's a good example from a YouTuber I follow, Mark Lewis, with him and his wife talking about her fitness journey. This is why you don't aim to overshoot on the way down.

Key part at 15m-18m, should be time stamped. She was focused on her weight, the number on the scale, thinking she could only look better if that number went down. She started lifting and working out more. She gained 4.4 pounds while greatly improving body composition and posture, and she likes the way she looks here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUXjbINwTfA&t=900s

Thanks for linking this video I’ll definitely take a look. A lot of women my age are stuck on a ridiculous number created by movies and magazines from when we were teens. It was a big deal in my generation to have the lowest number possible. I’m relieved the newer gens have shifted that thinking by quite a lot and embrace strength, curves, and food!

I’m comfortable with recomp and not a specific number. I wish I could figure out the hunger and neat issue though so I can knock out my workout and move on 😊. So much respect for the vets on this side of the fence cause this is tricky!

I don't have any good videos to support this opinion, but my intuition from experience is that if we build up our exercise routine somewhat gradually, with attention to sufficient recovery built into the schedule, the hunger/NEAT thing will be easier to figure out and manage.

"Build up" is referring to the combination of exercise type, frequency, duration, and intensity. Unfortunately, I do think which combinations are most fatiguing or appetite-spiking is somewhat individual, and probably interacts with sleep, nutrition quality, and calorie intake . . . among other things.

IMO, too many people dive into a challenging routine all at once. For fitness development, that's not essential, maybe not even a great idea. A manageable challenge at all times, progressively building up that combination (type, frequency, etc.) as one gets fitter, seems like a better approach to me.

If we don't want to feel like we got hit by a Mack truck, maybe don't step in front of one, metaphorically speaking.

A person can make amazing progress with a gradual build up, with consistency and patience, IME.

ddsb1111

@AnnPT77

If you're actually at 21%, that's pretty reasonable ("fitness" level of body fat on most rankings is 20-24% for women). I'm not arguing with your contention that you'd prefer to lose a bit more fat, either, just saying you may be in a good spot to start maintaining weight and building fitness.

I’m probably 23% rather than 21% if I had to guess, but not really sure. I think I’m at a good spot for recomp. I tried that second calculator but because I don’t know my neck and other measurements it wouldn’t compute. I only have my weight and waist in inches.

A manageable challenge at all times, progressively building up that combination (type, frequency, etc.) as one gets fitter, seems like a better approach to me.

Same. I need to slow it down I guess. Maybe let fitness sneak up on me lol. I joke, but if my hunger signals are going bananas maybe I am pushing harder than I should. I need to phase this out better.

If we don't want to feel like we got hit by a Mack truck, maybe don't step in front of one, metaphorically speaking.

Haha! You mean I’m not 20 and can’t do all the things all at once again! What the heck, Ann! 😂

ddsb1111

Per the Runnersworld link apparently Tatyana Lysenko (hammer throw) 23.4 and I are about the same. Why no one thought to recommend the hammer throw is beyond me.