Sugar Cravings are killing me
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cmriverside wrote: »kaferine69 wrote: »Can you try a couple different flavors of gum? I also struggle with sweets. People tell me I'm crazy when I say I have a sugar addiction, but I really believe it's an addiction just like any drug addiction.
I personally don't think having one or two mini chocolates are that bad for you. Often if I have, like, one mini Milky Way piece, it keeps me from indulging in an entire cookie or entire candy bar. I've also kept a bag of chocolate chip morsels (the ones you use for baking) in the freezer and if I am really feeling the sugar craving, I will grab a couple of those, or maybe like a tablespoon's worth.
Maybe you can also designate a single day a week where you do indulge in a slice of cake, or a cookie or two. It's better than binging several times a week.
LOLOL
As if I could have a bag of mini Milky Way or chocolate chip morsels and NOT eat the whole package before bed.
Your definition of "addiction" and mine are very very different!!
However this:
has been a useful tactic for me. I can't have bags of stuff in my house, but having one single-serve treat per week has been super helpful. I'm not denying myself the cookies, just having a Snack Pack of them. Once. I have to buy the little plastic cups of mini cookies. That's even 700 calories, so, not ideal. Single donuts or cupcakes seem the best for me, calorie-wise. 300-400 calories.Maybe you can also designate a single day a week where you do indulge in a slice of cake, or a cookie or two.
No way I'm able to have sweets in the house and leave them alone.
No kidding. For me, I don't seem to have a problem consuming berries and blueberries actually didn't effect my insulin at all, never moved off base line and it's the insulin response that triggers those evil thoughts and hormones. I will have some ice cream but only out at a local shop so I'm not tempted with a bucket in the freezer, because it wouldn't last the night. lol.3 -
Put a picture of the thinner you on the door to the pantry and every time you reach for something this is a reminder of not to do it.0
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cmriverside wrote: »
LOLOL
As if I could have a bag of mini Milky Way or chocolate chip morsels and NOT eat the whole package before bed.
Your definition of "addiction" and mine are very very different!!
Oh trust, there are certain "hot button" sweets that I simply cannot be around. Packages of any cookie, really, or donuts of any kind, and I do not have a stop button, even if I feel sick or ill.
But for me, straight chocolate just makes my mouth feel gross when I eat too much of it. So the chocolate morsels trick works for me because if I eat more than a tablespoon or two, I just start feeling blech. Maybe there is a candy or sweet snack that works this way for OP, as well.
Re: single-serve, this works well for me also. When I go to work, I pack ONLY what I will eat that day. I don't keep a drawer of snacks "in case I get hungry". And when I have only brought one single snack pack of whatever with me, well, then that's all I get! Aldi has a couple really yummy 100 calorie snack pack options, actually.3 -
cmriverside wrote: »You're welcome, HappyDonkey.
I am not sure why the go-to response from the above two posters was, "take a medication."
Medications are a tool that some people actually need.
It wasn’t my “go to” response. It was a follow up response that included an observation that OP seems to have tried many things, and has struggled for a long time. And that a frank discussion with their medical team might be helpful.
Yes, medications have side effects.
Not taking medications that are truly necessary also has effects. Many much more severe than the medication.
Most people don’t need medication to lose weight. That is something I agree with. That’s how I’m doing it. But for some it is one tool that - under guidance from a doctor who knows the person well - can be beneficial.
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I’d be leary of taking any advice regarding diet from a GP or for that matter many in the health field as there are just so many opinions. Drugs for sugar cravings would be a last ditch effort as I’m guessing it’s more of a tasty habit than an actual need for sugarMargaretYakoda wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »You're welcome, HappyDonkey.
I am not sure why the go-to response from the above two posters was, "take a medication."
Medications are a tool that some people actually need.
It wasn’t my “go to” response. It was a follow up response that included an observation that OP seems to have tried many things, and has struggled for a long time. And that a frank discussion with their medical team might be helpful.
Yes, medications have side effects.
Not taking medications that are truly necessary also has effects. Many much more severe than the medication.
Most people don’t need medication to lose weight. That is something I agree with. That’s how I’m doing it. But for some it is one tool that - under guidance from a doctor who knows the person well - can be beneficial.
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Re a voracious appetite, there is a complex bio-chemical/hormone system that regulates so much in our bodies, including, for some people, a heightened appetite.
Someone had mentioned checking thyroid.
OP had said that appetite persisted even when doing a keto approach.
So I mentioned checking with doc about medications that might suppress appetite, and left it at that as I have no idea about the health of op and any current meds.
-- but, the part I did not mention is the inferred flip side; some therapeutc meds have a known side effect of weight gain, and one could speculate the med may trigger appetite resulting in weight gain, for ex, steroids used for lung breathing issues.
-- in some cases, there may be alternative meds without a side effect of weight gain
-- seeing a doctor to assess is the appropriate place to seek help.
--- i would never suggest a patient find a doctor to prescribe anything inappropriate, although as I understand history, many drugs are prescribed off label, but beyond my knowledge to suggest anything further to op.1 -
tomcustombuilder wrote: »
I’d be leary of taking any advice regarding diet from a GP or for that matter many in the health field as there are just so many opinions. Drugs for sugar cravings would be a last ditch effort as I’m guessing it’s more of a tasty habit than an actual need for sugarMargaretYakoda wrote: »cmriverside wrote: »You're welcome, HappyDonkey.
I am not sure why the go-to response from the above two posters was, "take a medication."
Medications are a tool that some people actually need.
It wasn’t my “go to” response. It was a follow up response that included an observation that OP seems to have tried many things, and has struggled for a long time. And that a frank discussion with their medical team might be helpful.
Yes, medications have side effects.
Not taking medications that are truly necessary also has effects. Many much more severe than the medication.
Most people don’t need medication to lose weight. That is something I agree with. That’s how I’m doing it. But for some it is one tool that - under guidance from a doctor who knows the person well - can be beneficial.
I should clarify:
Medical advice about diet is best when the person giving it is a certified registered dietitian. Not a GP.
A GP can refer someone to a registered dietitian. You generally need a referral to see one and have your insurance cover it.
I do agree that many MDs aren’t particularly well informed on nutrition.
MDs can advise on other aspects of diet and weight loss. Including also referring someone to a specialist like an endocrinologist or physiotherapist who can provide more detailed and tailored care.
When someone has been struggling for a long time, and is not feeling good about their progress, I think asking for professional help can be a good step.
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Keto doesn't absolve someone's cravings for something sweet. It may lower the urges, but inherently through time, humans actually ate sweet things back in the early ages because it wasn't poisonous.Adventurista wrote: »@HappyDonkey75 - i was surprised to hear you say that you still experience the strong cravings even when sticking to a keto plan.
There does seem to be a bio-chemical response in the body for some people that seems to drive persistent voracious cravings... On the extreme end would be the Prader syndrome, but various classes of drugs have a known side effect that suppresses appetite or compulsions.
Have you ever tried a prescription drug and found relief? Think that might be a discussion to have with a doctor and might be worth asking.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
Keto doesn't absolve someone's cravings for something sweet. It may lower the urges, but inherently through time, humans actually ate sweet things back in the early ages because it wasn't poisonous.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
In my personal experience, reducing overall daily carbs does break/remove the voracious appetite.
For me, it seems to be a lower overall daily/meal limit/threshold than a standard meal plan, but the limits are higher than keto limits. Overall carb <120g+/- per day and about <50g+/- per meal.
If i eat higher amounts over a few days (think a holiday feast and leftovers through a weekend), the insatiable/voracious appetite roars back. It takes about 4 days at the lower limits for the appetite to start to recede, and actually takes a good 3+ weeks for the physical agitation to end.
In the absence of preferred sweets and treats, exceeding the threshold with any carb will trigger the voracious appetite.
I liken the voracious appetite as a physical dependance. Resetting the appetite by eating a lower threshold of carbs and experienced agitation as withdrawals, and it is fully back when i exceed the threshold.
Very similar to withdrawals from cigarettes, except can not stop eating altogether, so I am left with managing overall carb consumption.
I am fortunate to have figured out the impact and threshold for carbs. I hear others say they experience such severe dependence that abstinence is necessary for the present time.
Another observation for me personally is that time does not seem to change the threshold. I have gone several times from 6+ mos to 2 yrs at a time, then indulge during holidays, and appetite roars back within a few days, and it takes just as long to get the appetite to reset and the agitation to recede.
So although the medical cmmunity and public at large hotly debate the existence and nature of food addiction, habit and dependence, the emerging information provides an explanation for my lived experience. Although I tried to explain the experience to various doctors/persons, there was no language or framework for mutual understanding, and invariably the advice has been to just eat less, move more, aka cico, and things would be fine....
although cico is a major overall limit, other things for me were also necessary, specifically a limit on overall carb consumption.
I look forward to a day when there is mutual understanding and consensus... so people can receive help and support, of the nature people with other substance dependence (nicotine, drugs, alcohol) receive help and support.4 -
I'm aware that everyone has a threshold for how their bodies handle carbs. Obviously a person who is athletic and trains hard versus one who does little to no physical activity will utilize carbs differently. And also since everything in our body is a chemical response, how our hormones run and react in the body will give different results as well.Adventurista wrote: »Keto doesn't absolve someone's cravings for something sweet. It may lower the urges, but inherently through time, humans actually ate sweet things back in the early ages because it wasn't poisonous.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
In my personal experience, reducing overall daily carbs does break/remove the voracious appetite.
For me, it seems to be a lower overall daily/meal limit/threshold than a standard meal plan, but the limits are higher than keto limits. Overall carb <120g+/- per day and about <50g+/- per meal.
If i eat higher amounts over a few days (think a holiday feast and leftovers through a weekend), the insatiable/voracious appetite roars back. It takes about 4 days at the lower limits for the appetite to start to recede, and actually takes a good 3+ weeks for the physical agitation to end.
In the absence of preferred sweets and treats, exceeding the threshold with any carb will trigger the voracious appetite.
I liken the voracious appetite as a physical dependance. Resetting the appetite by eating a lower threshold of carbs and experienced agitation as withdrawals, and it is fully back when i exceed the threshold.
Very similar to withdrawals from cigarettes, except can not stop eating altogether, so I am left with managing overall carb consumption.
I am fortunate to have figured out the impact and threshold for carbs. I hear others say they experience such severe dependence that abstinence is necessary for the present time.
Another observation for me personally is that time does not seem to change the threshold. I have gone several times from 6+ mos to 2 yrs at a time, then indulge during holidays, and appetite roars back within a few days, and it takes just as long to get the appetite to reset and the agitation to recede.
So although the medical cmmunity and public at large hotly debate the existence and nature of food addiction, habit and dependence, the emerging information provides an explanation for my lived experience. Although I tried to explain the experience to various doctors/persons, there was no language or framework for mutual understanding, and invariably the advice has been to just eat less, move more, aka cico, and things would be fine....
although cico is a major overall limit, other things for me were also necessary, specifically a limit on overall carb consumption.
I look forward to a day when there is mutual understanding and consensus... so people can receive help and support, of the nature people with other substance dependence (nicotine, drugs, alcohol) receive help and support.
While many ketoers make adamant claims that you don't need carbs to live, it DOES have an effect on your cognivity. I've seen this many times with competitive bodybuilders and fitness competitors when they are in the last stages of their prep and go really low to no carb. Foggy brain, memory and just even some basic conversation are different.
All in all, I tell clients that they can do any diet they want to as long as they don't exceed the calorie intake I may set for them.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I'm aware that everyone has a threshold for how their bodies handle carbs. Obviously a person who is athletic and trains hard versus one who does little to no physical activity will utilize carbs differently. And also since everything in our body is a chemical response, how our hormones run and react in the body will give different results as well.Adventurista wrote: »Keto doesn't absolve someone's cravings for something sweet. It may lower the urges, but inherently through time, humans actually ate sweet things back in the early ages because it wasn't poisonous.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
In my personal experience, reducing overall daily carbs does break/remove the voracious appetite.
For me, it seems to be a lower overall daily/meal limit/threshold than a standard meal plan, but the limits are higher than keto limits. Overall carb <120g+/- per day and about <50g+/- per meal.
If i eat higher amounts over a few days (think a holiday feast and leftovers through a weekend), the insatiable/voracious appetite roars back. It takes about 4 days at the lower limits for the appetite to start to recede, and actually takes a good 3+ weeks for the physical agitation to end.
In the absence of preferred sweets and treats, exceeding the threshold with any carb will trigger the voracious appetite.
I liken the voracious appetite as a physical dependance. Resetting the appetite by eating a lower threshold of carbs and experienced agitation as withdrawals, and it is fully back when i exceed the threshold.
Very similar to withdrawals from cigarettes, except can not stop eating altogether, so I am left with managing overall carb consumption.
I am fortunate to have figured out the impact and threshold for carbs. I hear others say they experience such severe dependence that abstinence is necessary for the present time.
Another observation for me personally is that time does not seem to change the threshold. I have gone several times from 6+ mos to 2 yrs at a time, then indulge during holidays, and appetite roars back within a few days, and it takes just as long to get the appetite to reset and the agitation to recede.
So although the medical cmmunity and public at large hotly debate the existence and nature of food addiction, habit and dependence, the emerging information provides an explanation for my lived experience. Although I tried to explain the experience to various doctors/persons, there was no language or framework for mutual understanding, and invariably the advice has been to just eat less, move more, aka cico, and things would be fine....
although cico is a major overall limit, other things for me were also necessary, specifically a limit on overall carb consumption.
I look forward to a day when there is mutual understanding and consensus... so people can receive help and support, of the nature people with other substance dependence (nicotine, drugs, alcohol) receive help and support.
While many ketoers make adamant claims that you don't need carbs to live, it DOES have an effect on your cognivity. I've seen this many times with competitive bodybuilders and fitness competitors when they are in the last stages of their prep and go really low to no carb. Foggy brain, memory and just even some basic conversation are different.
All in all, I tell clients that they can do any diet they want to as long as they don't exceed the calorie intake I may set for them.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 35+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
When body builders go low to no carbs a few days out from competition, it's a completely different situation than someone that's already low carb or on a ketogenic diet.
If your a sugar burner (carbs) for energy the brain relies on glucose for it's energy source and when you immediately remove carbs from the diet to very low numbers or remove carbs altogether you effectively shut off the energy supply to the brain and because it takes longer than a few days to be in nutritional ketosis where someone is generating enough ketones to supply the whole body and especially the brain with energy symptoms like brain fog, headaches, irritability, and low energy and collectively these constitute "keto flu" Also the loss of water effects the electrolyte balance when removing carbs which on it's own effects the brain where cognition can be effected and described as brain fog. If you want to be smarter than the average fitness trainer then suggesting exogenous ketones as a strategy to mitigate that brain fog, your clients will thank you. You should look into that considering what you do for a living.
Anyway, being in a state of nutritional ketosis actually increases cognition and the ketogenic diet is used quite effectively for patients with dementia and early stage Alzheimer's and that's been going on for a few decades and there's lots of studies it you decide to take a look. Also those exogenous ketones I mentioned are used by the US Military for warfighters and NASA uses them for their extreme environment testing to increase mental clarity.
Basically almost every single person that tries low carb, keto or carnivore experience a complete cognition transformation and described as being awake for the first time in their lives.
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neanderthin wrote: »
When body builders go low to no carbs a few days out from competition, it's a completely different situation than someone that's already low carb or on a ketogenic diet.
If your a sugar burner (carbs) for energy the brain relies on glucose for it's energy source and when you immediately remove carbs from the diet to very low numbers or remove carbs altogether you effectively shut off the energy supply to the brain and because it takes longer than a few days to be in nutritional ketosis where someone is generating enough ketones to supply the whole body and especially the brain with energy symptoms like brain fog, headaches, irritability, and low energy and collectively these constitute "keto flu" Also the loss of water effects the electrolyte balance when removing carbs which on it's own effects the brain where cognition can be effected and described as brain fog. If you want to be smarter than the average fitness trainer then suggesting exogenous ketones as a strategy to mitigate that brain fog, your clients will thank you. You should look into that considering what you do for a living.
Anyway, being in a state of nutritional ketosis actually increases cognition and the ketogenic diet is used quite effectively for patients with dementia and early stage Alzheimer's and that's been going on for a few decades and there's lots of studies it you decide to take a look. Also those exogenous ketones I mentioned are used by the US Military for warfighters and NASA uses them for their extreme environment testing to increase mental clarity.
Basically almost every single person that tries low carb, keto or carnivore experience a complete cognition transformation and described as being awake for the first time in their lives.
bold & italics are mine to highlight terms
@neanderthin ~ ty.... led to some interesting rabbit holes... and some rambling thoughts, wondering your take... (and anyone who cares to comment.)
question - so how long do you think it takes to make the shift and actually stabilize beyond keto flu and feel the brain benefits of 'nutritional ketosis?'
my takeaway from the rabbit hole would be that it's better to stay one way (sugar burner) or the other (fat burner) but not bounce frequently between.
I hope the impact studies on the various diseases reveal clear answers. for example with alzheimers I found nearly equal push for keto and for MIND (a combo mediteranean/dash variety of whole grains, freggies, fish, healthy fats etc.)
For diabetes, i could not get a clear answer either with prevalent information that it can help stabilize blood sugar but as prevalent that it is harmful perhaps co-morbid concerns with kidneys/liver
as a non-professional person just trying to find a path - with opposing advice from various medical professionals - it is exceedingly difficult to sort information... However, the conversion between the keto and non-keto approaches is dramatic on the body systems, would think a person should pick one way or the other and not switch back & forth frequently? Or does it matter?
Is there evidence that switching is harmful - If it takes time to (re-)enter a state of nutritional ketosis, then frequent switching would keep restarting the process? I am not sure this is a relevant thread to follow - beyond a potential harm or delay, how often do we see discussion of 'cheat meals or days' which could take a person out of nutritional ketosis?
eyeballs rolling into back of head trying to think these issues through.
other relevancy? - if a person is struggling with impulse control to keep their hand out of the cookie jar and frequently binges on sweets & treats, then it may be unrealistic to pursue keto until eating patterns have normalized/stabilized and they can emotionally make a steady switch to eating for nutritional ketosis.
and - regarding the low carb mentioned in the quote - does the shift into benefits of low carb take time in the same manner of switching into nutritional ketosis?
-- on a personal note, i have observed that reducing appetite and the related physical agitation seems to have 2 time markers - about 4 days for appetite to recede but perhaps 3+/- weeks for the physical crawl the wall agitation to resolve. For me personally, this reduction in cravings/agitation is very difficult and not wanting to go through that transition is my personal reason for not switching back and forth, but not sure I've encountered discussion of duration when moving into a low carb state. Do you think the transition into low-carb is comparable in length to the switch into nutritional ketosis?
ok, /end thoughts.
tia all
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HappyDonkey75 wrote: »My calories are 1400 right now and my Macros are Carbs 40%, Protein 35% and Fats 25%.
Yes calories are a bit low but the struggle with sugar is there even when I was set at about anywhere between 1800-2000 calories. For me, it really doesn't seem to matter. In fact I was hard core keto many years ago and was fit enough to be doing Spartan races , Tony Horton workouts , and riding endurance horses 100 miles a week. It was still a struggle then.
I do realize its choices and fighting through the cravings is something the only option on the table for me. Sometimes if I can talk myself though it and distract myself with something else, like a walk or a task I can manage. I just am reaching out because I want this monster to go away or atleast not rear its ugly head daily for me. Sugar addiction is a real thing and I am envious of those who have no desire for that. I do come from a family over eaters and super heavy people, who eat rather unhealthy. I often wonder if its the genetic code at some level playing a part.
@HappyDonkey75
so all this discussion on appetite... back to your original post - how long would you say you were hard core keto? Did you stick with keto for long periods of time or did you also enjoy other carb treats very often?
asking - because as I continued to think on this, seems it takes me a good 3+/- weeks to break the appetite when I go keto (<20 or <50g/day) or 'low carb' (<120g-<150g/day).
I totally get the mind fixating on a desired treat - i think it has a 'emotional/mind brain component' that for me is like I might see a tv ad for a particular thing and want it for weeks until I go get it...
but beyond that - there is a physical urge for carbs - and in the absence of whatever I am thinking about or prefer - any carb/food does it physically... (although may not do it emotionally - as the fixation on a particular may continue until that food is acquired.) so there can be 2 separate aspects to the driving urge - an emotional fixation plus and/or a physical drive. The resolution can be different or together... What I mean is - for the emotional might be a good night's sleep and distraction. For the physical may be a change in types & quantity of food eaten - and when both types of drive are present, both kinds of solutions deployed...
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Before I answer these questions I just want to go on the record to say that the ketogenic diet should only be utilized for health reasons and if it's for just weight loss then it's going to be a big fail simply because of adherence, lets face it who want to eat like this, nobody really, but for the people that find this diet through trial and error like i did then it's a life changing event.Adventurista wrote: »neanderthin wrote: »
When body builders go low to no carbs a few days out from competition, it's a completely different situation than someone that's already low carb or on a ketogenic diet.
If your a sugar burner (carbs) for energy the brain relies on glucose for it's energy source and when you immediately remove carbs from the diet to very low numbers or remove carbs altogether you effectively shut off the energy supply to the brain and because it takes longer than a few days to be in nutritional ketosis where someone is generating enough ketones to supply the whole body and especially the brain with energy symptoms like brain fog, headaches, irritability, and low energy and collectively these constitute "keto flu" Also the loss of water effects the electrolyte balance when removing carbs which on it's own effects the brain where cognition can be effected and described as brain fog. If you want to be smarter than the average fitness trainer then suggesting exogenous ketones as a strategy to mitigate that brain fog, your clients will thank you. You should look into that considering what you do for a living.
Anyway, being in a state of nutritional ketosis actually increases cognition and the ketogenic diet is used quite effectively for patients with dementia and early stage Alzheimer's and that's been going on for a few decades and there's lots of studies it you decide to take a look. Also those exogenous ketones I mentioned are used by the US Military for warfighters and NASA uses them for their extreme environment testing to increase mental clarity.
Basically almost every single person that tries low carb, keto or carnivore experience a complete cognition transformation and described as being awake for the first time in their lives.
bold & italics are mine to highlight terms
@neanderthin ~ ty.... led to some interesting rabbit holes... and some rambling thoughts, wondering your take... (and anyone who cares to comment.)
question - so how long do you think it takes to make the shift and actually stabilize beyond keto flu and feel the brain benefits of 'nutritional ketosis?'
my takeaway from the rabbit hole would be that it's better to stay one way (sugar burner) or the other (fat burner) but not bounce frequently between.
I hope the impact studies on the various diseases reveal clear answers. for example with alzheimers I found nearly equal push for keto and for MIND (a combo mediteranean/dash variety of whole grains, freggies, fish, healthy fats etc.)
For diabetes, i could not get a clear answer either with prevalent information that it can help stabilize blood sugar but as prevalent that it is harmful perhaps co-morbid concerns with kidneys/liver
as a non-professional person just trying to find a path - with opposing advice from various medical professionals - it is exceedingly difficult to sort information... However, the conversion between the keto and non-keto approaches is dramatic on the body systems, would think a person should pick one way or the other and not switch back & forth frequently? Or does it matter?
Is there evidence that switching is harmful - If it takes time to (re-)enter a state of nutritional ketosis, then frequent switching would keep restarting the process? I am not sure this is a relevant thread to follow - beyond a potential harm or delay, how often do we see discussion of 'cheat meals or days' which could take a person out of nutritional ketosis?
eyeballs rolling into back of head trying to think these issues through.
other relevancy? - if a person is struggling with impulse control to keep their hand out of the cookie jar and frequently binges on sweets & treats, then it may be unrealistic to pursue keto until eating patterns have normalized/stabilized and they can emotionally make a steady switch to eating for nutritional ketosis.
and - regarding the low carb mentioned in the quote - does the shift into benefits of low carb take time in the same manner of switching into nutritional ketosis?
-- on a personal note, i have observed that reducing appetite and the related physical agitation seems to have 2 time markers - about 4 days for appetite to recede but perhaps 3+/- weeks for the physical crawl the wall agitation to resolve. For me personally, this reduction in cravings/agitation is very difficult and not wanting to go through that transition is my personal reason for not switching back and forth, but not sure I've encountered discussion of duration when moving into a low carb state. Do you think the transition into low-carb is comparable in length to the switch into nutritional ketosis?
ok, /end thoughts.
tia all
Depends really who the person is, their overall metabolic health status, what kind of food (diet) they're on because a whole food Mediterranean diet vs the standard American diet will have consequences to the transition where the higher carb and UPF diet will take longer but generally speaking, it can take 3 or 4 days to be producing ketones for some energy but to be fully adapted which involves changing enzymes levels, hormonal adjustments, the upregulation of fat metabolism pathways etc takes 2 to 4 weeks or longer.question - so how long do you think it takes to make the shift and actually stabilize beyond keto flu and feel the brain benefits of 'nutritional ketosis?'I hope the impact studies on the various diseases reveal clear answers. for example with alzheimers I found nearly equal push for keto and for MIND (a combo mediteranean/dash variety of whole grains, freggies, fish, healthy fats etc.)
For diabetes, i could not get a clear answer either with prevalent information that it can help stabilize blood sugar but as prevalent that it is harmful perhaps co-morbid concerns with kidneys/liver
For Alzheimer's for example keto is very well researched and there's literally 100's of studies showing it's effectiveness, so that's a given.
For diabetes a ketogenic diet is the diet used by Physicians who run clinics that deal with diabetes, IR, fatty liver, obesity basically all the non communicable diseases and what it does do is reverse diabetes every single time along with most other metabolic dysfunction baring any unusual medical conditions, it's basically a no brainer. the kidney/liver concerns are based on epidemiological observational data but when actually researching the effect of a ketogenic diet on those organs there's generally an improvement in function, especially the liver.
The alternative the Mediterranean, dash diet, using whole grains, veggies and healthy fats is your basic ideological pick but when compared, the ketogenic diet is still more effective but considering the profits lost from promoting a ketogenic diet it's just not a good business plan with huge drops in medications and processed food sales as examples of the politics involved. Nutritional science is bought and paid for, for the most part. The Med diet as an alternative is a good pick because changing from the standard American diet, which is where all the health and medical dysfunction is to a Mediterranean which is mostly a whole food diet , lots of vegetables and whole grains is difficult enough and where a large percentage will fail let alone asking someone to use a ketogenic diet, so yeah it's a good alternative if someone was to comply mostly with the ethos of what is thought to be a Med diet. The problem with that alternative diet (Med diet) is, there's no way to really study it's effectiveness therefore results can be anything you want them to be in observational studies that's a problem with real science that is just looking for actual repeatable results.
Everyone is different but for me the urge to consume more carbs generally disappear after about 4 or 5 days to the point that even being offered desserts for example which is my Achilles heel I have absolutely no desire at all and it actually make me a little disgusted when I go shopping, and even when I make them for work, I'm a chef, I still have no desire to have any. Consequently the keto diet also is very satiating and don't have to rely on counting calories anymore, so I just eat until I feel comfortably full, which works out eating twice a day and virtually no snacks, so blood sugar and hormones keep me steady all day, every day.
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Disclaimer--I didn't read the keto stuff before I answered cause I don't know anything about it.
No answers-- suggestions.
Have you tried chromium or berberine? Small bottle from dollar tree=$1.25. Cheap and easy experiment.
Margaret mentioned Tootsie roll midgets. I used them and they really helped. Count out 11 of the tiny ones for about 100 calories. That's it for the day. Let one melt in your mouth, no chewing. Good enough to satisfy the need, not good enough to overeat just cause they're good. You might find something else works better.
Years ago they said if you want to quit cold turkey--the first day you want sugar all day long. The second day your body demands sugar. The third day is H-ll. The fourth and fifth day feels like you're recovering from bad flu.
Pick your favorite sweet. That's the ONLY sweet you can have. After all, you deserve the best! This helps with mindlessly reaching for things you don't really, really want.
Do you really want sweet, or do you want something to distract your mind just for a minute? I reach for an almond first. I may still have the sweet, but often I don't. Sometimes is better than always.
Speaking only for myself, a protein and fat, low carb breakfast starts my day right and makes good food choices just a little bit easier all day.
Good luck!
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@Adventurista
so all this discussion on appetite... back to your original post - how long would you say you were hard core keto? Did you stick with keto for long periods of time or did you also enjoy other carb treats very often?
**I was Paleo for a year and Keto for about 1 year. I would say I was pretty hardcore.. I was working out 6 days a week at intense levels.
**as far as the cravings, Its a fixation for sure.. but I don't know if it can be classified as emotional or Physical based on your descriptions. Basically its a taste thing I think. If someone told me I could live on cake for the rest of my life, I'd be the happiest person on this planet. That is just the reality of it.
Thanks for thinking on it and responding.
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@HappyDonkey75 - for sure sweets are sweet, and if a person can't resist, then that's a place to start looking for solutions.
@neanderthin, ty. Much to ponder and appreciate that you find keto satisfying even when working with sweets. Sounds like you have crossed that hurdle and benefit from the approach.
-- for me, there has been a lot of work releasing excess food levels, and then most junk food... permanent keto would be even further... thinking it is not good to switch back and forth frequently
-- i appreciate the thought on who/reasons behind research and conclusions.1 -
have you considered that you might have BED?
https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/binge-eating-disorder/
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Adventurista wrote: »In my personal experience, reducing overall daily carbs does break/remove the voracious appetite.
For me, it seems to be a lower overall daily/meal limit/threshold than a standard meal plan, but the limits are higher than keto limits. Overall carb <120g+/- per day and about <50g+/- per meal.
If i eat higher amounts over a few days (think a holiday feast and leftovers through a weekend), the insatiable/voracious appetite roars back. It takes about 4 days at the lower limits for the appetite to start to recede, and actually takes a good 3+ weeks for the physical agitation to end.
In the absence of preferred sweets and treats, exceeding the threshold with any carb will trigger the voracious appetite.
<snip>
Another observation for me personally is that time does not seem to change the threshold. I have gone several times from 6+ mos to 2 yrs at a time, then indulge during holidays, and appetite roars back within a few days, and it takes just as long to get the appetite to reset and the agitation to recede.
So although the medical cmmunity and public at large hotly debate the existence and nature of food addiction, habit and dependence, the emerging information provides an explanation for my lived experience. Although I tried to explain the experience to various doctors/persons, there was no language or framework for mutual understanding, and invariably the advice has been to just eat less, move more, aka cico, and things would be fine....
although cico is a major overall limit, other things for me were also necessary, specifically a limit on overall carb consumption.
This has pretty much been my experience too. Slowly, over two and a half years, I've increased my net carb intake from 20 to where I can usually take in 170g of mostly healthy carbs or so a day without setting off an undesirable insulin response that feels like hunger, but is really just carb cravings. Prolonged higher processed carb days can take days to weeks before those cravings go away completely. It doesn't have to be sugar that sets off the cravings for me. Just about any kind of dough, crackers or chips will do it. Thinking I can limit myself to just a small serving of something like tortilla chips then stop is a pipe dream. Doing some exercise right after having a higher carb load helps mitigate the affect for me. Not always practical though.
Insulin Resistance is a real thing for many of us. The level of IR experienced can be reduced over time, but I doubt that it will ever completely go away for me. (And, I doubt it will ever be understood by some who have never experienced it.) I accept it and deal with it. I'll be going to a birthday party for one of the grand kids this weekend and will have pizza and cake right along with everyone else. To me, it is worth the price of carb cravings for a couple of days to participate with everyone at a special event. I'd have to rethink that if I were trying to stay in ketosis or eating very low carbs.
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My cravings for less nutrient-dense sweets (candy, baked goods) were reduced when I made it a point to eat several servings of whole fruit daily. I started with 3 servings daily.
That won't work for everyone, but others here besides me have said they found it helpful. It might be worth a try, if you haven't already tried it.
It took a short number of weeks to be effective for me . . . I think around 2-3, but I don't remember for sure. But neither instant nor super long.
Yes, upping my fruit helps me too.1
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