"Metabolic Damage"
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With all this talk about "______ metabolism", call it what you want.....is there a way a person can be checked out by their doctor to see if they have damaged/tanked/slowed/ruined their metabolism through long periods of VLCD? I'd like to have some sort of diagnosis or something, anything, that takes the guessing out of it. Someone to look at whatever input they need to collect from me and say, "Yes, your metabolism is slow by #%, as your RMR should be #### for a woman your age, weight, etc, but as you can see here, it's only at ####", then use that knowledge to prescribe an effective manner to fix it.
I've never experienced frustration like this before, and to be honest, I've never held up without caving this long either. Usually, I'd try the 'balanced diet, moderate caloric deficit' approach, not see weight loss after a *week*, then freak out and go low carb, which ultimately led to low calorie as well, and still remain pretty active, resulting in a much higher deficit than anyone should be aiming for.
The point I'm at now, I'm eating a balanced diet, I'm active every day, I've been at this for over a month and I haven't seen any drop on the scale. I've actually seen it go UP. But....I realize this is likely due to the shock of having ample calories after a looooooooooong period of 800-1200 calories a day. WTF was I thinking, right? So, while I have a sneaking suspicion what I've done here is lowered/adapted/slowed/adjusted/tanked/ruined my metabolism, some sort of definitive analysis from a doctor would be great. Does such a thing exist?0 -
After many atempts at trying to lose weight, and many fad diets, I finally clicked on the best way to lose weight and get fitter. BY LEARNING ABOUT HOW THE BODY ACTUALLY WORKS!!!!! Im by no means an expert, but am lucky to have a partner who is studying in uni for a sports and nutrition degree, and through his guidance am at the stage I am today in my weight loss journey. Yes it might seem daunting but its not just about calories and deficits, its also about things like macros and providing your body with the right fuel for it to work properly. tweaking yourself as you get closer to where you want to be and realising your body will adjust. Asking it to perform higher than its used to (in my case by weight training) encouraging it to become stronger and fitter. Thats why I sit here and yes sometimes think I wish I was losing weight faster, but at least all the weight im losing pretty much stays off. I know I do fluctuate occasionally, but then I am also human and as much as I want my end goal of a body fat % of 20%, I know I will eventually get there without killing myself in the process or making myself miserable because IM ON A DIET. This isnt a diet, its a complete lifestyle change that is taking place slowly the more I learn as I go along
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no such thing as metabolic damage. even l. norton has back tracked on some of the things he said. there is metabolic adaptation the same way there is cardiovascular adaptation, and muscular adaptation.
Glad you posted this. The reason people think their metabolism is 'damaged' is because they previously lost a great deal of their lean body mass by crazy dieting. This results in a much lower TDEE, and when weight is gained back, a higher percentage of the weight is body fat, and the TDEE remains lower until that is corrected. The fix is to increase calories and muscle mass. But it is not as if the metabolism has somehow become broken. It is working exactly as it is supposed to!0 -
With all this talk about "______ metabolism", call it what you want.....is there a way a person can be checked out by their doctor to see if they have damaged/tanked/slowed/ruined their metabolism through long periods of VLCD? I'd like to have some sort of diagnosis or something, anything, that takes the guessing out of it. Someone to look at whatever input they need to collect from me and say, "Yes, your metabolism is slow by #%, as your RMR should be #### for a woman your age, weight, etc, but as you can see here, it's only at ####", then use that knowledge to prescribe an effective manner to fix it.
I've never experienced frustration like this before, and to be honest, I've never held up without caving this long either. Usually, I'd try the 'balanced diet, moderate caloric deficit' approach, not see weight loss after a *week*, then freak out and go low carb, which ultimately led to low calorie as well, and still remain pretty active, resulting in a much higher deficit than anyone should be aiming for.
The point I'm at now, I'm eating a balanced diet, I'm active every day, I've been at this for over a month and I haven't seen any drop on the scale. I've actually seen it go UP. But....I realize this is likely due to the shock of having ample calories after a looooooooooong period of 800-1200 calories a day. WTF was I thinking, right? So, while I have a sneaking suspicion what I've done here is lowered/adapted/slowed/adjusted/tanked/ruined my metabolism, some sort of definitive analysis from a doctor would be great. Does such a thing exist?
A good bodyfat test, hydrostatic, DEXA, Bodpod - one of those 3% methods. Fasted in morning, normal sodium eating level day before, not sore from last workout retaining water.
Now you have LBM.
Now a proper RMR test, fasted in morning, no workout prior 36 hrs.
Now you have what your mainly LBM is burning at rest.
Formulas for RMR based on LBM for those not dieting have a very narrow range of accuracy, you should be within 5% of expected, up or down.
Lower than 5%, outside any medical reasons involving thyroid, is most likely part of that potential up to 20% drop in metabolism when you diet with big deficit, unrelated to loss of muscle mass.
Combine that with fact studies have shown reduced TDEE because of reduced NEAT, along with lowered RMR, and you got something worthy of fixing before getting stressed out over lack of progress.0 -
this all dayno such thing as metabolic damage. even l. norton has back tracked on some of the things he said. there is metabolic adaptation the same way there is cardiovascular adaptation, and muscular adaptation.
Glad you posted this. The reason people think their metabolism is 'damaged' is because they previously lost a great deal of their lean body mass by crazy dieting. This results in a much lower TDEE, and when weight is gained back, a higher percentage of the weight is body fat, and the TDEE remains lower until that is corrected. The fix is to increase calories and muscle mass. But it is not as if the metabolism has somehow become broken. It is working exactly as it is supposed to!0 -
no such thing as metabolic damage. even l. norton has back tracked on some of the things he said. there is metabolic adaptation the same way there is cardiovascular adaptation, and muscular adaptation.
Glad you posted this. The reason people think their metabolism is 'damaged' is because they previously lost a great deal of their lean body mass by crazy dieting. This results in a much lower TDEE, and when weight is gained back, a higher percentage of the weight is body fat, and the TDEE remains lower until that is corrected. The fix is to increase calories and muscle mass. But it is not as if the metabolism has somehow become broken. It is working exactly as it is supposed to!
What would you call a measured reduction in metabolism well beyond what the reduction in muscle mass or LBM, or weighing less moving would cause?
First few posts spell out many points being missed in this thread.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1077746-starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss“Maintenance of a 10% or greater reduction in body weight in lean or obese individuals is accompanied by an approximate 20%-25% decline in 24-hour energy expenditure. This decrease in weight maintenance calories is 10–15% below what is predicted solely on the basis of alterations in fat and lean mass. Thus, a formerly obese individual will require ~300–400 fewer calories per day to maintain the same body weight and physical activity level as a never-obese individual of the same body weight and composition. Studies of individuals successful at sustaining weight loss indicate that reduced weight maintenance requires long-term lifestyle alterations. The necessity for these long-term changes is consistent with the observation that the reduction in twenty four hour energy expenditure (TEE) persists in subjects who have sustained weight loss for extended periods of time (6 months – 7 years) in circumstances of enforced caloric restriction in the biosphere 2 project, bariatric surgery and lifestyle modification.”
How is that not a damaged metabolism when it's lower than it could be, by the mere fact you dieted down to a weight?
So yes you are correct you yo-yo diet for years each time burning off valuable muscle mass, making it easier and faster to gain the weight back when you try to eat at what you think is maintenance, or go well above because you stopped watching again.
Each time getting harder to lose.
But even at that reduced muscle mass state and therefore expected slower metabolism compared to someone else your age, weight, height - your metabolism is STILL lower than would be expected for that LBM.0 -
Can we start calling it a slowed metabolism again? When you eat too little, you're body is trying to save you, it's doing exactly what it is meant to do -- be grateful for that! However, your metabolism should never be permanently damaged, once you get back to eating a normal amount, and regularly, it will return to 'normal'. When you lose any significant amount of weight, your metabolism will adjust to a new body weight as well.
That being said, eating too few calories will slow your metabolism, and not help you lose weight. You need to eat a healthy amount, consistently, and keep your metabolism revved by natural, healthy means, like eating enough, eating often, eating the correct macro-nutrients (getting enough fiber (45 g!), at least 45-60 g of protein, enough fat, complex carbs, etc), doing weight training, daily exercise -- and just an overall maintenance of good health. Only OVERALL HEALTH will keep your metabolism right where it should be.
Constantly focusing on improving health with nutrition, fitness, and mental health, not just losing weight, will keep everything working the way it should in the long run! Work with your body -- not against it!0 -
Bump0
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Is there some benefit to living with a damaged or whatever you want call it metabolism? Is it better not to recognize it's damaged or whatever you want to call it and not try to fix it?
I love this. Great point! You are absolutely right, but it requires two things that MANY people in the "weight loss" world lack: patience and knowledge. Depending on how bad the damage is and how long you have been in that condition, will determine how long it will take to restore your metabolism. As you repair your body, you gain body fat and have to keep close track of your calorie intake to ensure you are getting enough every day. I am in my second year and have gained 20+ pounds (125 to 148), 10% body fat (12% to 20-22%) and almost two jean sizes (from a size 1 to 3-5), but I honestly feel like a million bucks, have energy to make it through the day, have intense workouts, am in a good mood, have a sex drive and a relationship again!!!, and I honestly think I look better as well. It takes time, commitment and knowing both the process and YOUR OWN body.
you sound like me to a T except I feel so self conscious and ashamed because the world can see this new body that looks nothing like the one I once had. How did you accept the changes? I wish I had it in me!
I hear you. I was afraid of the world looking at me and saying or thinking things like, "she is letting herself go", or "Looks like superwoman lost her discipline afterall!" Well, they can think or say what they want. They don't know what I am doing and why and i don't owe them an explanation. I constantly tell myself that I am doing what is right for my body for the LONG haul. I don't want to eat 1200-1500 calories and do cardio every day for the rest of my life. I want to have muscle, strength and health. So, when my pants get a little tight, I remind myself that this is temporary and I will be better in a few months or years. If I continue to do the same thing I've done for the past 15 years (I've been a dieter since I was 14-15 years old), I will get the same results. So...time to do something different. :-) Good luck and have COURAGE!0 -
Read my profile. I experienced the same thing many years ago and I don't think my metabolism will ever be what it was. What do you mean by reverse dieting? I went too far in the other direction (ate anything and everything) after I recovered from anorexia and gained too much weight - mostly because I wanted so badly to be normal again and to escape the horrible sadness that comes with that lifestyle. I am very happy now and fairly healthy, but I'm looking to get back to a better weight for my size, where I will feel better - just about 10 pounds max loss.0
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Read my profile. I experienced the same thing many years ago and I don't think my metabolism will ever be what it was. What do you mean by reverse dieting? I went too far in the other direction (ate anything and everything) after I recovered from anorexia and gained too much weight - mostly because I wanted so badly to be normal again and to escape the horrible sadness that comes with that lifestyle. I am very happy now and fairly healthy, but I'm looking to get back to a better weight for my size, where I will feel better - just about 10 pounds max loss.
Reverse dieting for me was setting a goal to SLOWLY increase both calories and carbs (I was a really low carb person) in a calculated way. First thing I did was discover my maintenance level of calories. I didn't use any calculators or equations or other generalized crap. My starting point, when I decided to do this was 1200 calories a day with one hour of cardio daily and lifting 6 days a week. I decreased my lifting days to 4 days a week and was going to lift heavy with rep range in the muscle building 8-10 range. I decreased cardio to 45 minutes. I did this for two weeks, then increased calories by 100 and decreased cardio to 30 minutes a day. I did this for another 2 weeks, then decreased cardio to 30 minutes on lifting days and increased calories another 100. I kept track of weight and only increased when the scale quit moving up. I ended up with 2 days of cardio a week, on non-lifting days, with one full rest day and my calories were at 1700-1800 a day. My carbs were at 150-200 a day. I found this to be my maintence level, so I stayed there for nine months, so my body could "heal" and "de-stress". After nine months of maintence, I began the process of increasing my metabolic capacity. No scientific documentation or research here...just being intune with my body and observing changes. Over the past six months, I have increased calories again by 100 or so a month. I also made sure to increase carbs and ensure that I get a minimum of 150 a day. Right now, I average 2300-2500 calories a day and 200 carbs a day. I lift hard and heavy for approximately an hour, four days a week. I was mountain biking a few times a week during the summer for fun, so I would eat an additional 500-800 calories on those days. Now that mountain biking season is coming to an end, I will do HIIT style cardio for 20-30 minutes 2 days a week, for muscle building and mental health purposes. :-) So far, I have gained 3 pounds in six months and stayed the same pants size. Same size, but they fit differently...I have filled out in the scrawny areas, where I had little muscle. Look through my profile pictures. I will change my profile pic to one taken last week. Good luck!0 -
Interesting vids & comments. Bump for further discussion updates.0
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no such thing as metabolic damage. even l. norton has back tracked on some of the things he said. there is metabolic adaptation the same way there is cardiovascular adaptation, and muscular adaptation.
Glad you posted this. The reason people think their metabolism is 'damaged' is because they previously lost a great deal of their lean body mass by crazy dieting. This results in a much lower TDEE, and when weight is gained back, a higher percentage of the weight is body fat, and the TDEE remains lower until that is corrected. The fix is to increase calories and muscle mass. But it is not as if the metabolism has somehow become broken. It is working exactly as it is supposed to!
What would you call a measured reduction in metabolism well beyond what the reduction in muscle mass or LBM, or weighing less moving would cause?
First few posts spell out many points being missed in this thread.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1077746-starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss“Maintenance of a 10% or greater reduction in body weight in lean or obese individuals is accompanied by an approximate 20%-25% decline in 24-hour energy expenditure. This decrease in weight maintenance calories is 10–15% below what is predicted solely on the basis of alterations in fat and lean mass. Thus, a formerly obese individual will require ~300–400 fewer calories per day to maintain the same body weight and physical activity level as a never-obese individual of the same body weight and composition. Studies of individuals successful at sustaining weight loss indicate that reduced weight maintenance requires long-term lifestyle alterations. The necessity for these long-term changes is consistent with the observation that the reduction in twenty four hour energy expenditure (TEE) persists in subjects who have sustained weight loss for extended periods of time (6 months – 7 years) in circumstances of enforced caloric restriction in the biosphere 2 project, bariatric surgery and lifestyle modification.”
How is that not a damaged metabolism when it's lower than it could be, by the mere fact you dieted down to a weight?
So yes you are correct you yo-yo diet for years each time burning off valuable muscle mass, making it easier and faster to gain the weight back when you try to eat at what you think is maintenance, or go well above because you stopped watching again.
Each time getting harder to lose.
But even at that reduced muscle mass state and therefore expected slower metabolism compared to someone else your age, weight, height - your metabolism is STILL lower than would be expected for that LBM.
Again (and as others have said) it is not 'damaged'. Your body is (again) doing what it is supposed to be doing (keeping you alive) taking into account what it has experienced.0 -
no such thing as metabolic damage. even l. norton has back tracked on some of the things he said. there is metabolic adaptation the same way there is cardiovascular adaptation, and muscular adaptation.
Glad you posted this. The reason people think their metabolism is 'damaged' is because they previously lost a great deal of their lean body mass by crazy dieting. This results in a much lower TDEE, and when weight is gained back, a higher percentage of the weight is body fat, and the TDEE remains lower until that is corrected. The fix is to increase calories and muscle mass. But it is not as if the metabolism has somehow become broken. It is working exactly as it is supposed to!
What would you call a measured reduction in metabolism well beyond what the reduction in muscle mass or LBM, or weighing less moving would cause?
First few posts spell out many points being missed in this thread.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1077746-starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss“Maintenance of a 10% or greater reduction in body weight in lean or obese individuals is accompanied by an approximate 20%-25% decline in 24-hour energy expenditure. This decrease in weight maintenance calories is 10–15% below what is predicted solely on the basis of alterations in fat and lean mass. Thus, a formerly obese individual will require ~300–400 fewer calories per day to maintain the same body weight and physical activity level as a never-obese individual of the same body weight and composition. Studies of individuals successful at sustaining weight loss indicate that reduced weight maintenance requires long-term lifestyle alterations. The necessity for these long-term changes is consistent with the observation that the reduction in twenty four hour energy expenditure (TEE) persists in subjects who have sustained weight loss for extended periods of time (6 months – 7 years) in circumstances of enforced caloric restriction in the biosphere 2 project, bariatric surgery and lifestyle modification.”
How is that not a damaged metabolism when it's lower than it could be, by the mere fact you dieted down to a weight?
So yes you are correct you yo-yo diet for years each time burning off valuable muscle mass, making it easier and faster to gain the weight back when you try to eat at what you think is maintenance, or go well above because you stopped watching again.
Each time getting harder to lose.
But even at that reduced muscle mass state and therefore expected slower metabolism compared to someone else your age, weight, height - your metabolism is STILL lower than would be expected for that LBM.
Again (and as others have said) it is not 'damaged'. Your body is (again) doing what it is supposed to be doing (keeping you alive) taking into account what it has experienced.
Again, people are referring to the reduction in metabolic result in order to "keep you alive" when they say "damaged." Now we're quibbling over semantics. I don't care what it's called--the phenomenon that I UNDOUBTEDLY believe exists is that the metabolic rate is markedly lower than one would predict based on weight, bodyfat, age, and activity level as a result of caloric restriction and/or over-exercising (two sides of the same coin).0 -
Again, people are referring to the reduction in metabolic result in order to "keep you alive" when they say "damaged." Now we're quibbling over semantics. I don't care what it's called--the phenomenon that I UNDOUBTEDLY believe exists is that the metabolic rate is markedly lower than one would predict based on weight, bodyfat, age, and activity level as a result of caloric restriction and/or over-exercising (two sides of the same coin).
What you may see as quibbling over semantics, I see as being precise. But that's my scientific background speaking.0 -
Does anyone here subscribe to the AARR?
If so, go read the Apr/May 2013 AARR.
Alan did an interview with Lyle McDonald on the issue of "metabolic damage"......
Cliff note version:
Lyle does not believe in metabolic damage, he believes it is just the way the body works naturally and through adaptation.
He also noted, that most likely those on very low calorie diets, and high amounts of exercise, eventually crack and go on a binge eating period, which wipes out any caloric deficit the person may have had for the week.0 -
ok, I have a question... recovering from mild undereating and sllllowly lost a few kg,
like the minimum I would eat on a sedentary day being 1400 and a busy day 1600 ish and very very slowly lost weight and now maintain it with a LBF of 11% on 17-1800.. recently bumped it up to 1800 and gained 1.5KG quite quick, in like a week. I weigh about 50kg ish and my bmi is just about 18.5-19... have I damaged my metabolism? will i gain uber uber super super quick if I was to increase it??????????????????????????/ worried!!!!0 -
Honestly, the term "metabolism" refers to the sum total of all the biochemical reactions that are required to sustain life. It especially refers to the processes required to convert energy from one source to another (transduction).
Metabolic "perturbation" definitely occurs whenever you change your food intake, energy expenditure, nutrient intake, etc. Without certain raw materials, for instance, certain reactions can't occur.
Now, call it what you will, but I feel "perturbation" is a better term. Let me give you an example as to why:
If a person at a low bodyfat percentage undereats for a year, they will lose significant lean body mass. As a result, less energy input will be needed. So the metabolism (sum total of reactions occuring) in the muscle has "decreased". The person now needs less calories because fewer molecules are being burned for energy. Studies have shown that BMR reduction is essentially a function of nutrient intake and that LBM loss is intimitely coupled with it. That's why this "calore reduction" fad has me shaking my head. Proponents say you can more readily build muscle/keep muscle on such a plan. But that's not true in my experience. Every time I've eaten too few calories, I've lost LBM, and my BMR has decreased as a result. They also claim that because your cells are intaking less energy, and dividing less, etc, that the limit (Hayflick limit) won't be reached as fast. Therefore, you supposedly live longer, and have a lower chance of cell division errors (like cancer). But what they don't advertise is that undernutrition is dangerous in and of itself.
If you want to call this effect metabolic "damage", ok. But I feel "perturbation" is a more precise, scientific term. Damage implies that organs are damaged and will no longer work properly even when nutrient balance is restored. Liver disease is a type of damage. So is thyroid disease, adrenal disease, etc.
There is probably a fine line between perturbation and damage, though. Restrict calories in general, or more precisely, a certain macronutrient, and your body suffers. Too little protein--> muscle wasting. Too little fat--> hormone synthsesis is decreased. Lack of micronutrients/cofactors/vitamins--> reactions can't happen as readily.
The difference between strict perturbation and true damage is that the body can recover readily from perturbation when nutrient balance is restored. "Damage" doesn't always recover, on the other hand. I doubt most people have extensive damage from dieting, unless they've injured their organs beyond the point that they can repair themselves. Some popular books have been written, talking about how every food known to man can damage one organ/system or another. I feel there's some truth to the idea, but I think it's exaggerated to scare people.
Honestly, if one really thinks about what I've written above, it will be clear that it reconciles the difference of opinion between the two camps.0 -
ok so maintaining now on roughly say 1750... will perturbation be restored once I gain LBM? Thank you for your extensive reply. I have had several checks and ECG's are all perfect, blood work etc although I do have low oestrogen (PCOS) PROB due to history of anorexia. I recently went and had a body composition analysis done and it said my BMR is 1200 and TEE is 1840... will this be wrong then because my BMR COULD be lower due to weight loss..? xx
so lots of vitamins, protein, healthy fats and muscle building and I should b ok?!0 -
ok so maintaining now on roughly say 1750... will perturbation be restored once I gain LBM? Thank you for your extensive reply. I have had several checks and ECG's are all perfect, blood work etc although I do have low oestrogen (PCOS) PROB due to history of anorexia. I recently went and had a body composition analysis done and it said my BMR is 1200 and TEE is 1840... will this be wrong then because my BMR COULD be lower due to weight loss..? xx
so lots of vitamins, protein, healthy fats and muscle building and I should b ok?!
Not exactly. But LBM gain would be evidence of reversal of negative metabolic perturbation! In fact by doing so, you'd be inducing a positive form of perturbation. (Which is what I'm doing since I'm bulking. Less catabolism--breaking down...and more anabolism--building up).
My point was, if your organs are working right, they will probably readjust within some period of time (months?). If you ate enough, you would maintain. That would be evidence that you didn't actually "damage" them. (That and having good blood levels of hormones!) Rather, you perturbed your metabolism by eating less, but then un-perturbed it.
btw, "perturbation" is a scientific word used to discuss altering an equilibrium point in any dynamic system. I don't know if anyone has actually used the word in reference to metabolism before I did here. (If not, I'd be surprised.)
Edit: Yeah, looks like they have: https://google.com/#q=metabolic+perturbation
So I'm not the first....
For example: "GC/TOFMS analysis of metabolites in serum and urine reveals metabolic perturbation of TCA cycle in db/db mice involved in diabetic nephropathy."
So yeah, there's definitely a fine line between perturbation and "damage" or "disease". My interpretation is that perturbation must exist when there's damage, but not all perturbation leads to damage.
btw, I see "damage" or "disease" or "pathology" as a negative adaptation to a stimulus. "Health" is the absence of disease!0 -
ok so maintaining now on roughly say 1750... will perturbation be restored once I gain LBM? Thank you for your extensive reply. I have had several checks and ECG's are all perfect, blood work etc although I do have low oestrogen (PCOS) PROB due to history of anorexia. I recently went and had a body composition analysis done and it said my BMR is 1200 and TEE is 1840... will this be wrong then because my BMR COULD be lower due to weight loss..? xx
so lots of vitamins, protein, healthy fats and muscle building and I should b ok?!
No, BMR is really a function of weight and body composition. So I'm sure it's accurate. Numbers sound pretty reasonable, unless you're a 6' tall woman or something.
Yeah, I'd just use MFP to track macros/calories and make sure you get enough. And eat back exercise burns.0 -
ok, I have a question... recovering from mild undereating and sllllowly lost a few kg,
like the minimum I would eat on a sedentary day being 1400 and a busy day 1600 ish and very very slowly lost weight and now maintain it with a LBF of 11% on 17-1800.. recently bumped it up to 1800 and gained 1.5KG quite quick, in like a week. I weigh about 50kg ish and my bmi is just about 18.5-19... have I damaged my metabolism? will i gain uber uber super super quick if I was to increase it??????????????????????????/ worried!!!!
Just so you know, if you increased calories that small amount, but gained that much, you know it's not fat, right?
Unless a meal was much higher sodium than normal, it was likely finally topping off glucose stores in the muscles, which stores with water.
So basically good beneficial water weight.
And that would imply that if there were even stores to top off, you were not previously eating at maintenance, or TDEE. One of the first things to drop when someone starts a diet is water weight, some from sodium because of watching what they eat more, but also from the body just deciding not to store as much glucose.
I agree damage is a unlikely word, depends on what you mean. Some recent studies have show you undereat too much and you do make your body more efficient from metabolism to daily activity to exercise - you burn less then you would have otherwise.
There is some recovery to that, though one study showed up to 6 years to get back to where it was expected to be.
So is that damage because it could have been higher? Or the body did exactly what it needed to do, and will keep doing in case the craziness starts up again?
Now the other stuff you can recover from, besides the muscle mass discussed above, is increasing your spontaneous daily activity. Several studies have shown that if you undereat too much the body adapts by cutting back on some daily activity.
Eat more and you can get that back.
Many report eating say just 200 more than before, they got their energy back, and they started losing again. Well, if that extra 200 eaten allowed the body to feel good burning 400 more daily in activity - then net improvement by eating more.
I'd suggest stick at that higher level, because when in a slight deficit, you get less improvements from exercise too.0 -
i lost 20 lbs over 2 years ago then bulked up and gained a lot of fat, then i started dieting last new year january 2nd 2013 i been on off dieting since binging dieting for 3 days etc just been a mess. now i am at a point where i am fat but can't lose weight so i am basically going to be increasing carbs by 4g every week fat by 1g and calories by 13 i got a long road ahead of me. i might make adjustments depending on how things go.0
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ok so maintaining now on roughly say 1750... will perturbation be restored once I gain LBM? Thank you for your extensive reply. I have had several checks and ECG's are all perfect, blood work etc although I do have low oestrogen (PCOS) PROB due to history of anorexia. I recently went and had a body composition analysis done and it said my BMR is 1200 and TEE is 1840... will this be wrong then because my BMR COULD be lower due to weight loss..? xx
so lots of vitamins, protein, healthy fats and muscle building and I should b ok?!
Not exactly. But LBM gain would be evidence of reversal of negative metabolic perturbation! In fact by doing so, you'd be inducing a positive form of perturbation. (Which is what I'm doing since I'm bulking. Less catabolism--breaking down...and more anabolism--building up).
My point was, if your organs are working right, they will probably readjust within some period of time (months?). If you ate enough, you would maintain. That would be evidence that you didn't actually "damage" them. (That and having good blood levels of hormones!) Rather, you perturbed your metabolism by eating less, but then un-perturbed it.
btw, "perturbation" is a scientific word used to discuss altering an equilibrium point in any dynamic system. I don't know if anyone has actually used the word in reference to metabolism before I did here. (If not, I'd be surprised.)
Edit: Yeah, looks like they have: https://google.com/#q=metabolic+perturbation
So I'm not the first....
For example: "GC/TOFMS analysis of metabolites in serum and urine reveals metabolic perturbation of TCA cycle in db/db mice involved in diabetic nephropathy."
So yeah, there's definitely a fine line between perturbation and "damage" or "disease". My interpretation is that perturbation must exist when there's damage, but not all perturbation leads to damage.
btw, I see "damage" or "disease" or "pathology" as a negative adaptation to a stimulus. "Health" is the absence of disease!
The metabolic response to calorie intake is apparently path dependent, the effects of restriction and the adjustments to factors such as hormonal response to new intake that are not just LBM driven. I covered a lot of this in the work here:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1077746-starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss
I'm ok with the idea that it's "metabolic damage" as it's an unwanted effect on metabolism that has negative consequences on health - it's more difficult to maintain a specific weight range in someone with a functionally reduced TDEE and the resulting change does have health consequences.
As to the idea that it is non-permanent, most likely, most of the time, but somewhere along the way we know that severe restriction leads to permanent organ and tissue damage. The prevalence of adrenal/pituitary damage, as one example, in people with a history of disordered eating does raise the possibility of irreversible processes. But, like many biological systems, the fact that there is a risk of permanent damage doesn't mean there will always be that type of damage.
I would suggest that the semantic elements are both a sterile discussion - in the sense that it doesn't provide guidance for someone trying to get back on the right path - and a fascinating discussion - not only about the exactitude of expression but as social more, medical thought and how social ideas evolve. For example, the concept of Monsters comes from "montre" or to show in French - which is what was done to medical "freaks" in the 18th Century. Obviously, attitudes and society around these concepts have changed. More recently we are seeing a shifts in concepts of disease, obesity, metabolic syndrome which are far from anodyne with respect to social acceptance, healthcare choices, treatment and financial consequences.0 -
I'll put in my 2 cents...well maybe a couple of 2 cents from my own research and personal experience:
~Not eating enough and the body recognizes famine. I have done this. plenty of people have done this, that is why I see a lot of "I can only maintain on 1200-500 calories" Even women eating at 1500 is too low.
~Too much cardio. I have done this also, combined with above. I ran in college and highschool at a pretty grueling level, some top people (kinda fun, plus college races are 10 times more violent than a regular road race). The body eventually gets used to it.
~High protein/Low carb diets. I have seen this a lot because the body primarily runs on carbs. And then I see people who complain about eating one gram over 50g carbs and they puff up like a balloon. Once you reintroduce carbs and give it time, like recovering from restricting, it will go away.
~ You can't really damage your metabolism. It is true that those who are recovered from their eating disorder will have a lower metabolism, but its mostly due to muscle loss.
~801010 can help those who are binge eaters or anorexics in recovery. Because the food is deemed as "safe" (seriously, do you know how many women deem foods as safe? How many of us go "omg you're bad for eating a cupcake"? Just because you're not starving yourself doesn't mean crap. Paleo followers do it, low carbers do it, and clean eaters do it also) and also promotes eating high amounts of calories.
I love all the input and topics on here Bookmarking for future reading. Also if anyone wants to throw some input in on some stuff here go ahead. I won't respond to negative backlashing, no point in stooping to that level. 0 -
~ You can't really damage your metabolism. It is true that those who are recovered from their eating disorder will have a lower metabolism, but its mostly due to muscle loss.
All true. Only this point has been expanded in recent studies.
The amount of energy spent by muscle is relatively minor compared to the metabolically active organs.
Obviously more muscle used all day increases TDEE compared to have less using it all day. But not the 250-500 cal reduction just based on that.
This study gets in to the metabolic efficiency improvements, over and above like muscle mass and reduction of spontaneous activity.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales?month=2014010 -
Interesting, I'll look into it~ You can't really damage your metabolism. It is true that those who are recovered from their eating disorder will have a lower metabolism, but its mostly due to muscle loss.
All true. Only this point has been expanded in recent studies.
The amount of energy spent by muscle is relatively minor compared to the metabolically active organs.
Obviously more muscle used all day increases TDEE compared to have less using it all day. But not the 250-500 cal reduction just based on that.
This study gets in to the metabolic efficiency improvements, over and above like muscle mass and reduction of spontaneous activity.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales?month=201401 0 -
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Eating that little can definitely mess up your menstrual cycle. I have not had mine in over a year, and I am trying desperately to get it back (with the help of my GP & a Gyno) I would seek medical help if this happens to you again.
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Ya i had to gain 12 pounds for my period to come back after 2 years.0 -
Very interesting topic. Will have to come back and have a proper read once my munchkins have gone to bed.
I wonder about what happened with my body after being pregnant. I had pretty severe morning sickness with both babies. More so with my first where I basically just spent the entire day (and a fair amount of the night) vomiting. I lost 7kgs in a week at one stage and most days even towards the end of pregnancy managed maybe one meal a day. Sometimes I was lucky enough to keep it down, other times not so much. I estimate that I was probably managing less than 500 calories a day. Second baby wasn't so bad as I was on lots of meds right from the start but still probably less than 800 calories a day. I am 5'9" so not exactly short! I gained loads of weight AFTER pregnancy, mainly because I went nuts eating everything in sight. But I also wonder if some of it is maybe my bodies reaction to having been tortured for 2 rounds of 9 months? Probably wasn't smart to only have 17 months between babies either.
I am still nursing my youngest so wonder if my hormones might be a bit out of whack still. Although, in reality I need to stop eating so much junk food! But still, I am intrigued to know if I did any damage to my body over that time and how long it takes to get back to "normal"0 -
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