"Metabolic Damage"

baptiste565

with all due respect, it is the direct opposite of what u r saying. under caloric restriction ur body learns to do activities with less calories. ur metabolism becomes more efficient.

No, it just slows down the rate at which it does things, and if not enough energy to do everything needed, you might say a priority list.

So some experience hair and nail growth slow down, low priority.

Some experience hair loss and super bad skin, low priority.

Some get colder in the winter, put on more clothes, low priority.

Compared to many functions that can't be slowed down that much, like dealing with the water levels in the cells, heart beating, organ cleanup (though that can be impaired too in liver).

More efficiency would imply it's doing the same amount of work - it doesn't.

Must like the studies that shows your NEAT will lower your TDEE under severe calorie restriction.

You didn't get more efficient doing all your daily activities and movements - you just stopped doing some of them, or less of them.

friend, lets say on day 1 of an exercise program u run 5mi 30min and burn 600 cals. on day 30 if u run the same distance in the same. do u think u r going to burn the same amount of cals like u did on day 1OR will ur body have adapted to a certain point to the stress put on and become better (more efficient) at running and thus burn less cals.

Lichent

I donlt know if it is damage but this is a good educational video that explains the metabolism in simple speak for people like us without a medical degree.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpllomiDMX0

Love4fitnesslove4food2

IT doesn't mean anything? How about it's a descriptor of what occurs in the body when it determines that self-preservation is at risk.

If you haven't guessed, I wholly agree with Layne Norton and have experienced it myself. At 11-13% bodyfat I was running maybe 70miles a week and lifting, I looked great and I was a mess hormonally, physically, and emotionally. I was eating ~2000-2300 calories a day despite "burning" well over 3000 each day but I was simply maintaining. Any time I'd eat what one would estimate my TDEE at I would gain weight FAST. Real weight, not water weight or a temporary fluctuation. I decreased my workouts to what they should be--maybe an hour or so a day--and quickly gained ~20 pounds in 9 weeks. At the same time I was eating ~2000-2300 calories a day so MAYBE a surplus of 300 calories a day on average--certainly not 1000+ extra calories a day; however, my body simply FREAKED OUT! I have also gone through recovery from anorexia--at which time I gained from 68 pounds up to 95 pounds all by eating 1200-1700 calories a day (and doing some daily exercise). I've done enough research and lived at the extreme where self-preservation is a real risk. I can say without doubt that "metabolic damage" is real and I don't care what anyone chooses to call it. Semantics and technicalities are a way to avoid the underlying message which is quite real and true.

I am not saying that Layne is right or wrong....I don't care.

My view on this is that the metabolism is not damaged...
If you are alive and breathing, then you are "metabloising" something...
When you are dead, you can say that the metabolism is damaged.

If you cut calories, then your body is going to react in a way that preserves itself....no different than a pregnant woman who cuts way back on her caloric intake in order to stay "skinny".....she can do that all she wants, but she will suffer while the body does things to protect the fetus.

Obviously this is a personal experience for you, so my intent is not to offend you.

But I don't think damage is the right word.....
Has the metabolism slowed down?? Yes, very much so.
Will it take time to get it going yes?? Yes. It will.
Will it get back to where it is working as desired?? Most likely yes.
Is that damage? To me no, it is working how it was intended to work. It works to preserve the life.

Your body has amazing coping mechanisms......so when you screw things up, it will take time to get it working right again.
But I don't see it as "damage", I see it as how God (or nature, your choice) intended.

I think "damaged" is intended to mean that it is not functioning optimally which you concede occurs in response to extreme caloric restriction. So i think you do, in fact, agree that it exists despite your dislike of the terminology.

with all due respect, it is the direct opposite of what u r saying. under caloric restriction ur body learns to do activities with less calories. ur metabolism becomes more efficient.

With all do respect, I said "optimally" not "efficiently."

ragingmrs

An acquaintance of mine used the HCG diet to lose about 100lbs, but she rapidly gained it all back, plus some. She has quit the program but now she has found she can no longer lose weight normally; despite exercising and eating at a moderate deficit, she says the scale just won't move.<snip>

Unfortunately, as I have been reminded, that is the problem with quick fixes, whether they be bariatric surgery or a fad diet, they do not fix the problem. The problem being lifestyle. My Mother in Law in a Nurse Practitioner and she actually tells he patients that they are *not* allowed to diet. She goes through the life style changes that they need to make. The funny thing is that she does the same for depression and diabetes. Most of these woes can be cured by a clean diet with moderation, exercise, getting outside and drinking enough water. The quick fixes usually result in gaining the weight back, which, even if it does not make it physically harder to lose weight, it is so much harder on us emotionally.

MelissaPhippsFeagins

An acquaintance of mine used the HCG diet to lose about 100lbs, but she rapidly gained it all back, plus some. She has quit the program but now she has found she can no longer lose weight normally; despite exercising and eating at a moderate deficit, she says the scale just won't move. Her doctor has pretty much written her off, as "you made your bed, now lay in," and hasn't given her any advice.She knows I lost weight the 'old fashioned way' and has asked for my input. This issue is far beyond my current knowledge, but it is good to read of someone who is coming back from it successfully. It makes me think she should just keep plodding away and doing it the way she is now and that she will eventually see success again. EIther that or take a full diet break for a while and give her body a rest?

Any doctor who "pretty much writes you off" should not be a doctor. She needs to find one who treats her with respect.

That said, were I in her position, I would calculate my BMR and TDEE, and eat my TDEE (plus eat back exercise calories) for a few weeks. Any gains or losses will allow her to tweak these numbers. Then I'd eat at a sensible deficit to lose the weight I wanted to lose.

I said that about her doctor too. However she defends him and said that he had advised her against the plan and she went ahead against his advice, so she's not upset that he's being all, "i told you so".... still, a very immature response from a medical proffessional, IMHO.

Even when they told you so, doctors shouldn't say so. Healers heal, not beat down. Can't wait to see my doc on Wednesday. She is going to be pleasantly surprised at my weight loss since my last visit. But probably unhappy that I forgot to go get my fasting labs done...actually, I am unhappy with myself about that, but I'll take the orders with me and go to the lab as soon as it opens on Thursday. I work two buildings over from my docs office, but the lab is downstairs in my building. I can get a blood draw done on my break, I just forgot I needed to do it until today.

MelissaPhippsFeagins

Totally anecdotal advice for helping repair metabolic damage, add probiotics to your diet. I have known people who use the expensive live cultures from Whole Foods and people who use the capsules and they swear by them. I am thinking of using them myself for a month or two to help repair damage done by celiac disease, but I'm going to discuss it with my doc first and see what she thinks.

heybales

friend, lets say on day 1 of an exercise program u run 5mi 30min and burn 600 cals. on day 30 if u run the same distance in the same. do u think u r going to burn the same amount of cals like u did on day 1OR will ur body have adapted to a certain point to the stress put on and become better (more efficient) at running and thus burn less cals.

If you weigh the same, and you didn't start running on day 1 such that day 30 is a huge increase in efficiency, you are going to burn the same amount of calories.
The increase in efficiency for something like running is minor improvement in calorie burn, unlike something like Zumba or other with complex moves.

Unless you somehow hit a patch of low gravity area, the energy needed to move that mass free from the pull of gravity doesn't change.

Now, after 30 days your heart should not need to beat as fast to supply the oxygen needed to provide that energy.
Also, the energy ratio would likely have shifted a bit from heavy carb burn to heavy fat burn by maybe 10-20%.

But the actual energy spent would have been the same.

Don't let an improvement in HR fool you, look up VO2max improvement, especially the fact you burn the same with lower HR.

Now, outside that answer - terrible analogy.

By your implication, why wouldn't your metabolism improve as life goes on anyway, why does it only take eating too little to improve it's efficiency?

Don't be fooled by the fact that on average, your metabolism goes down as you age. On average, your LBM also goes down. On average, your body slows down repairs too. All reasons for less energy needed.
That's why your metabolism gets slower on average as you age.

I'd suggest that if your premise of more efficient metabolism can happen with reduction in calories in a few months, then it already should be efficient as it could be at probably age 10-15, body should have figured it out by then.

heybales

Damaged metabolism, or broken metabolism.

Damaged car, depending on where the damage is, can still be driven.

Broken, not so much. Those with thyroid problems, yes, broken, outside of medicine providing a fix.

I've not seen one comment sounding like a claim of unrecoverable broken metabolism in this thread.

Damaged compared to how it could operate, sure.
The body working the way it wants to protect itself by adapting the metabolism - sure, but that doesn't mean the metabolism is not damaged, but the body as a whole is working as designed albeit with a lot of stress.

Damaged would imply you could fix it, and you can. But while it's damaged doesn't mean the metabolism is working the way it could or would like to.
Neither is the body working the way it would like too.

Is there some benefit to living with a damaged or whatever you want call it metabolism? Is it better not to recognize it's damaged or whatever you want to call it and not try to fix it?

GymRatGirl13

Is there some benefit to living with a damaged or whatever you want call it metabolism? Is it better not to recognize it's damaged or whatever you want to call it and not try to fix it?

I love this. Great point! You are absolutely right, but it requires two things that MANY people in the "weight loss" world lack: patience and knowledge. Depending on how bad the damage is and how long you have been in that condition, will determine how long it will take to restore your metabolism. As you repair your body, you gain body fat and have to keep close track of your calorie intake to ensure you are getting enough every day. I am in my second year and have gained 20+ pounds (125 to 148), 10% body fat (12% to 20-22%) and almost two jean sizes (from a size 1 to 3-5), but I honestly feel like a million bucks, have energy to make it through the day, have intense workouts, am in a good mood, have a sex drive and a relationship again!!!, and I honestly think I look better as well. It takes time, commitment and knowing both the process and YOUR OWN body.

Love4fitnesslove4food2

Is there some benefit to living with a damaged or whatever you want call it metabolism? Is it better not to recognize it's damaged or whatever you want to call it and not try to fix it?

I love this. Great point! You are absolutely right, but it requires two things that MANY people in the "weight loss" world lack: patience and knowledge. Depending on how bad the damage is and how long you have been in that condition, will determine how long it will take to restore your metabolism. As you repair your body, you gain body fat and have to keep close track of your calorie intake to ensure you are getting enough every day. I am in my second year and have gained 20+ pounds (125 to 148), 10% body fat (12% to 20-22%) and almost two jean sizes (from a size 1 to 3-5), but I honestly feel like a million bucks, have energy to make it through the day, have intense workouts, am in a good mood, have a sex drive and a relationship again!!!, and I honestly think I look better as well. It takes time, commitment and knowing both the process and YOUR OWN body.

you sound like me to a T except I feel so self conscious and ashamed because the world can see this new body that looks nothing like the one I once had. How did you accept the changes? I wish I had it in me!

CeleryStalker

With all this talk about "______ metabolism", call it what you want.....is there a way a person can be checked out by their doctor to see if they have damaged/tanked/slowed/ruined their metabolism through long periods of VLCD? I'd like to have some sort of diagnosis or something, anything, that takes the guessing out of it. Someone to look at whatever input they need to collect from me and say, "Yes, your metabolism is slow by #%, as your RMR should be #### for a woman your age, weight, etc, but as you can see here, it's only at ####", then use that knowledge to prescribe an effective manner to fix it.

I've never experienced frustration like this before, and to be honest, I've never held up without caving this long either. Usually, I'd try the 'balanced diet, moderate caloric deficit' approach, not see weight loss after a *week*, then freak out and go low carb, which ultimately led to low calorie as well, and still remain pretty active, resulting in a much higher deficit than anyone should be aiming for.

The point I'm at now, I'm eating a balanced diet, I'm active every day, I've been at this for over a month and I haven't seen any drop on the scale. I've actually seen it go UP. But....I realize this is likely due to the shock of having ample calories after a looooooooooong period of 800-1200 calories a day. WTF was I thinking, right? So, while I have a sneaking suspicion what I've done here is lowered/adapted/slowed/adjusted/tanked/ruined my metabolism, some sort of definitive analysis from a doctor would be great. Does such a thing exist?

KhaoticSoul

After many atempts at trying to lose weight, and many fad diets, I finally clicked on the best way to lose weight and get fitter. BY LEARNING ABOUT HOW THE BODY ACTUALLY WORKS!!!!! Im by no means an expert, but am lucky to have a partner who is studying in uni for a sports and nutrition degree, and through his guidance am at the stage I am today in my weight loss journey. Yes it might seem daunting but its not just about calories and deficits, its also about things like macros and providing your body with the right fuel for it to work properly. tweaking yourself as you get closer to where you want to be and realising your body will adjust. Asking it to perform higher than its used to (in my case by weight training) encouraging it to become stronger and fitter. Thats why I sit here and yes sometimes think I wish I was losing weight faster, but at least all the weight im losing pretty much stays off. I know I do fluctuate occasionally, but then I am also human and as much as I want my end goal of a body fat % of 20%, I know I will eventually get there without killing myself in the process or making myself miserable because IM ON A DIET. This isnt a diet, its a complete lifestyle change that is taking place slowly the more I learn as I go along

QuietBloom

no such thing as metabolic damage. even l. norton has back tracked on some of the things he said. there is metabolic adaptation the same way there is cardiovascular adaptation, and muscular adaptation.

Glad you posted this. The reason people think their metabolism is 'damaged' is because they previously lost a great deal of their lean body mass by crazy dieting. This results in a much lower TDEE, and when weight is gained back, a higher percentage of the weight is body fat, and the TDEE remains lower until that is corrected. The fix is to increase calories and muscle mass. But it is not as if the metabolism has somehow become broken. It is working exactly as it is supposed to!

heybales

With all this talk about "______ metabolism", call it what you want.....is there a way a person can be checked out by their doctor to see if they have damaged/tanked/slowed/ruined their metabolism through long periods of VLCD? I'd like to have some sort of diagnosis or something, anything, that takes the guessing out of it. Someone to look at whatever input they need to collect from me and say, "Yes, your metabolism is slow by #%, as your RMR should be #### for a woman your age, weight, etc, but as you can see here, it's only at ####", then use that knowledge to prescribe an effective manner to fix it.

I've never experienced frustration like this before, and to be honest, I've never held up without caving this long either. Usually, I'd try the 'balanced diet, moderate caloric deficit' approach, not see weight loss after a *week*, then freak out and go low carb, which ultimately led to low calorie as well, and still remain pretty active, resulting in a much higher deficit than anyone should be aiming for.

The point I'm at now, I'm eating a balanced diet, I'm active every day, I've been at this for over a month and I haven't seen any drop on the scale. I've actually seen it go UP. But....I realize this is likely due to the shock of having ample calories after a looooooooooong period of 800-1200 calories a day. WTF was I thinking, right? So, while I have a sneaking suspicion what I've done here is lowered/adapted/slowed/adjusted/tanked/ruined my metabolism, some sort of definitive analysis from a doctor would be great. Does such a thing exist?

A good bodyfat test, hydrostatic, DEXA, Bodpod - one of those 3% methods. Fasted in morning, normal sodium eating level day before, not sore from last workout retaining water.

Now you have LBM.

Now a proper RMR test, fasted in morning, no workout prior 36 hrs.

Now you have what your mainly LBM is burning at rest.

Formulas for RMR based on LBM for those not dieting have a very narrow range of accuracy, you should be within 5% of expected, up or down.

Lower than 5%, outside any medical reasons involving thyroid, is most likely part of that potential up to 20% drop in metabolism when you diet with big deficit, unrelated to loss of muscle mass.
Combine that with fact studies have shown reduced TDEE because of reduced NEAT, along with lowered RMR, and you got something worthy of fixing before getting stressed out over lack of progress.

baptiste565

no such thing as metabolic damage. even l. norton has back tracked on some of the things he said. there is metabolic adaptation the same way there is cardiovascular adaptation, and muscular adaptation.

Glad you posted this. The reason people think their metabolism is 'damaged' is because they previously lost a great deal of their lean body mass by crazy dieting. This results in a much lower TDEE, and when weight is gained back, a higher percentage of the weight is body fat, and the TDEE remains lower until that is corrected. The fix is to increase calories and muscle mass. But it is not as if the metabolism has somehow become broken. It is working exactly as it is supposed to!

this all day

heybales

no such thing as metabolic damage. even l. norton has back tracked on some of the things he said. there is metabolic adaptation the same way there is cardiovascular adaptation, and muscular adaptation.

Glad you posted this. The reason people think their metabolism is 'damaged' is because they previously lost a great deal of their lean body mass by crazy dieting. This results in a much lower TDEE, and when weight is gained back, a higher percentage of the weight is body fat, and the TDEE remains lower until that is corrected. The fix is to increase calories and muscle mass. But it is not as if the metabolism has somehow become broken. It is working exactly as it is supposed to!

What would you call a measured reduction in metabolism well beyond what the reduction in muscle mass or LBM, or weighing less moving would cause?

First few posts spell out many points being missed in this thread.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1077746-starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss

“Maintenance of a 10% or greater reduction in body weight in lean or obese individuals is accompanied by an approximate 20%-25% decline in 24-hour energy expenditure. This decrease in weight maintenance calories is 10–15% below what is predicted solely on the basis of alterations in fat and lean mass. Thus, a formerly obese individual will require ~300–400 fewer calories per day to maintain the same body weight and physical activity level as a never-obese individual of the same body weight and composition. Studies of individuals successful at sustaining weight loss indicate that reduced weight maintenance requires long-term lifestyle alterations. The necessity for these long-term changes is consistent with the observation that the reduction in twenty four hour energy expenditure (TEE) persists in subjects who have sustained weight loss for extended periods of time (6 months – 7 years) in circumstances of enforced caloric restriction in the biosphere 2 project, bariatric surgery and lifestyle modification.”

How is that not a damaged metabolism when it's lower than it could be, by the mere fact you dieted down to a weight?

So yes you are correct you yo-yo diet for years each time burning off valuable muscle mass, making it easier and faster to gain the weight back when you try to eat at what you think is maintenance, or go well above because you stopped watching again.
Each time getting harder to lose.

But even at that reduced muscle mass state and therefore expected slower metabolism compared to someone else your age, weight, height - your metabolism is STILL lower than would be expected for that LBM.

kaylaknight4247

Can we start calling it a slowed metabolism again? When you eat too little, you're body is trying to save you, it's doing exactly what it is meant to do -- be grateful for that! However, your metabolism should never be permanently damaged, once you get back to eating a normal amount, and regularly, it will return to 'normal'. When you lose any significant amount of weight, your metabolism will adjust to a new body weight as well.

That being said, eating too few calories will slow your metabolism, and not help you lose weight. You need to eat a healthy amount, consistently, and keep your metabolism revved by natural, healthy means, like eating enough, eating often, eating the correct macro-nutrients (getting enough fiber (45 g!), at least 45-60 g of protein, enough fat, complex carbs, etc), doing weight training, daily exercise -- and just an overall maintenance of good health. Only OVERALL HEALTH will keep your metabolism right where it should be.

Constantly focusing on improving health with nutrition, fitness, and mental health, not just losing weight, will keep everything working the way it should in the long run! Work with your body -- not against it!

Dyann_Alvarez

Bump

GymRatGirl13

Is there some benefit to living with a damaged or whatever you want call it metabolism? Is it better not to recognize it's damaged or whatever you want to call it and not try to fix it?

I love this. Great point! You are absolutely right, but it requires two things that MANY people in the "weight loss" world lack: patience and knowledge. Depending on how bad the damage is and how long you have been in that condition, will determine how long it will take to restore your metabolism. As you repair your body, you gain body fat and have to keep close track of your calorie intake to ensure you are getting enough every day. I am in my second year and have gained 20+ pounds (125 to 148), 10% body fat (12% to 20-22%) and almost two jean sizes (from a size 1 to 3-5), but I honestly feel like a million bucks, have energy to make it through the day, have intense workouts, am in a good mood, have a sex drive and a relationship again!!!, and I honestly think I look better as well. It takes time, commitment and knowing both the process and YOUR OWN body.

you sound like me to a T except I feel so self conscious and ashamed because the world can see this new body that looks nothing like the one I once had. How did you accept the changes? I wish I had it in me!

I hear you. I was afraid of the world looking at me and saying or thinking things like, "she is letting herself go", or "Looks like superwoman lost her discipline afterall!" Well, they can think or say what they want. They don't know what I am doing and why and i don't owe them an explanation. I constantly tell myself that I am doing what is right for my body for the LONG haul. I don't want to eat 1200-1500 calories and do cardio every day for the rest of my life. I want to have muscle, strength and health. So, when my pants get a little tight, I remind myself that this is temporary and I will be better in a few months or years. If I continue to do the same thing I've done for the past 15 years (I've been a dieter since I was 14-15 years old), I will get the same results. So...time to do something different. :-) Good luck and have COURAGE!

TLoss85

Read my profile. I experienced the same thing many years ago and I don't think my metabolism will ever be what it was. What do you mean by reverse dieting? I went too far in the other direction (ate anything and everything) after I recovered from anorexia and gained too much weight - mostly because I wanted so badly to be normal again and to escape the horrible sadness that comes with that lifestyle. I am very happy now and fairly healthy, but I'm looking to get back to a better weight for my size, where I will feel better - just about 10 pounds max loss.