Off topic, and I will probably stir the pot......

coolraul07

I was waiting for someone to bring up the irony of the following:

One group of people preaches individual liberty with minimal government interference, yet advocate death penalty and actively seek legislation minimizing or eliminating an individual's right to determine: what they do with their body, whether they should bring new life into the world, and how/when their own life should end.

Another group of people preaches that government has a responsibility to involve itself with many facets of individual's lives, include the ways and methods that you may defend you and yours, which actually minimizes individual freedom, and yet advocates individual choice to determine: what they do with their body, whether they should bring new life into the world, and how/when their own life should end.

It's like on one hand, "you may not decide when a life starts/end, but we can! Oh, and while you're here, you're on your own."
And on the other hand, "you can choose whether to start life and when to end yours! Oh, and while you're here, you have limited choice if your life cuz we'll take care of you and we know what's best for you!"

But I guess no one's gonna bring it up... oh well....


I wonder what aliens would think observing us from afar. But they again, they'd probably think dogs were in charge, since they lead us around so that we can pick up their poop!

keef1972

My Dad died after a long drawn out decline due to an incurable degenerative illness.

The last few months were appalling for him, in pain, undignified and hooked up to a breathing machine in hospital which stripped him of all independance.

Had there been a way for him to be helped to die peacefully at a time of his chosing he would have taken that path with the full support of the family.

His courage was inspiring but no-one should have to endure what he went through.

Sorry to hear about your Father!!

pinkstp

I don't think it should be limited to people who have terminal illnesses.

It's your life, if you choose to end it, you should be allowed to. Why make it gruesome and brutal ala home remedy when we could offer lethal injections? I don't necessarily think you should have to pass rigorous mental examinations. I think you should see a counselor to note if it's something that you could feasibly work through and if you want to work through it, awesome. If you don't, it should be an option.

But there have to be loads of witnesses, to ensure that the liability falls to the person seeking the injection and not the company who is administering it. Otherwise I think it could get a little dicey (injecting people who didn't request it because their family, enemy, mob, whatever, wants them dead w/o a rap sheet).

yoovie

I was waiting for someone to bring up the irony of the following:

One group of people preaches individual liberty with minimal government interference, yet advocate death penalty and actively seek legislation minimizing or eliminating an individual's right to determine: what they do with their body, whether they should bring new life into the world, and how/when their own life should end.

Another group of people preaches that government has a responsibility to involve itself with many facets of individual's lives, include the ways and methods that you may defend you and yours, which actually minimizes individual freedom, and yet advocates individual choice to determine: what they do with their body, whether they should bring new life into the world, and how/when their own life should end.

It's like on one hand, "you may not decide when a life starts/end, but we can! Oh, and while you're here, you're on your own."
And on the other hand, "you can choose whether to start life and when to end yours! Oh, and while you're here, you have limited choice if your life cuz we'll take care of you and we know what's best for you!"

But I guess no one's gonna bring it up... oh well....


I wonder what aliens would think observing us from afar. But they again, they'd probably think dogs were in charge, since they lead us around so that we can pick up their poop!

raises hand

hi - im no one, i posted right before you.

I touched on it but didnt bring up the divisive topic part because TOS.

yoovie

I don't think it should be limited to people who have terminal illnesses.

It's your life, if you choose to end it, you should be allowed to. Why make it gruesome and brutal ala home remedy when we could offer lethal injections? I don't necessarily think you should have to pass rigorous mental examinations. I think you should see a counselor to note if it's something that you could feasibly work through and if you want to work through it, awesome. If you don't, it should be an option.

But there have to be loads of witnesses, to ensure that the liability falls to the person seeking the injection and not the company who is administering it. Otherwise I think it could get a little dicey (injecting people who didn't request it because their family, enemy, mob, whatever, wants them dead w/o a rap sheet).

also - tie up your loose ends. no fair leaving five kids for the system to handle - you have to take care of everything first.

Unknown

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Frayde

It's really none of my business why someone wants to go unless they are family or close friends(and even then it's quesitonable if it's any of my busienss). If I were an outsider looking in, I would want my family member or friend to be evaluated by a mental health professional before pulling the plug. I would also like them to get a second and third opinion as to a cure. However, if all options have been exhausted, and they want to die to end a chronic illness that is causing the suffering, then I would want them to go peacefully. I would also not like the media to get involved becuase it's no one else's business what is going on. A moment like that would be hard enough without being scrutinized by the public.

I agree. After 25 years as a cardiac and ICU nurse, I think an individual has a right to decide, but it should be after medical and psychological evaluation.

NonnyMary

Off topic, and I will probably stir the pot......but I am curious what most people think.

Here goes: I was reading in the news the other night about someone who is fighting to have a medical assisted suicide. Naturally, she is getting resistance.
I'm just curious what everyone thinks about the topic....?? Me, personally, I think it's the person's right to do as they want, after-all, it is their body.
We wouldn't let our pet(s) suffer, so....is it right for Doctors and the medical community to let people suffer....??

its against the Hypocratic Oath, so no doctor will do that.

Cliffslosinit

Thou shalt not kill.

So jesus would rather they suffer in pain for a long and arduous death!?

Only He can do the smiting

ladymiseryali

I think I know the case you're talking about and I think people should have the right to die with dignity. Better to die by assisted suicide because it's a painless process from what I've gathered.

Hildy_J

I'm trying to talk my Mum into it. No dice.

She's not ill or anything - but she is really, REALLY irritating.

MaiLinna

Put aside your religious and philosophical ramblings and think about this:
"You let her do it, why won't you kill me too?"
Once one hospital decides it's okay, the rest of the world will decide it's okay, and we'll have emotionally charged children, teenagers, and post-natal women all offing themselves. That's not a message the world needs right now.

pinkledoodledoo

Put aside your religious and philosophical ramblings and think about this:
"You let her do it, why won't you kill me too?"
Once one hospital decides it's okay, the rest of the world will decide it's okay, and we'll have emotionally charged children, teenagers, and post-natal women all offing themselves. That's not a message the world needs right now.

It's already legal in some other countries and even the state of Vermont has recently passed legislation legalizing it.

whierd

Thou shalt not kill.

Irrelevant.


I'm all for assisted suicide.

whierd

Put aside your religious and philosophical ramblings and think about this:
"You let her do it, why won't you kill me too?"
Once one hospital decides it's okay, the rest of the world will decide it's okay, and we'll have emotionally charged children, teenagers, and post-natal women all offing themselves. That's not a message the world needs right now.

Clearly children and teenagers would not be allowed to do this. Way to fear monger.

WeepingAngel81

It's really none of my business why someone wants to go unless they are family or close friends(and even then it's quesitonable if it's any of my busienss). If I were an outsider looking in, I would want my family member or friend to be evaluated by a mental health professional before pulling the plug. I would also like them to get a second and third opinion as to a cure. However, if all options have been exhausted, and they want to die to end a chronic illness that is causing the suffering, then I would want them to go peacefully. I would also not like the media to get involved becuase it's no one else's business what is going on. A moment like that would be hard enough without being scrutinized by the public.

i am not going to say if I am Pro choice or not, that is my business and no one else needs to know however.

What determines suffering? Who determines that? Who makes the benchmarks?

Why does suffering have to be present?

At what point can someone who is diagnosed with something terminal allowed to say "I want to kill myself due to the suffering" can they be preventative and do it before the suffering? Is mental suffering due to knowing about your diagnosis whether or not you feel all the debilitating symptoms enough?

Where do you determine that all the options have been explored? Again, who gets to determine that you've tried hard enough?

How does someone who (in a preventative manner) determines that they want suicide before they lose function of their mental and communicative faculties determine that they meant it once they HAVE lost their faculties?

What and where is true misery?

How does age affect this? What if it was a 6 year old versus a 75 year old? suffering is the same, outlook on life is the same, potential is the same? is one allowed and the other "horrific"?

There are so many questions that have to be fielded for this kind of discussion.

it's really not something to be tackled lightly on a fitness form.

Jus sayin

I think the person wanting to die defines suffering. Most people are aware of what happens to terminal cancer paitents (this is just an example) I think that once all hope of survival has been exhausted, and the person undergoes a mental health eval showing that they want to die to avoid that suffering then let them. I'm not talking about someone who is in debt up to their ears seeing no way out and wants to die simply becuase they don't want to work towards a better life. I'm talking about a person who knows what the end of their life will look like and wants to go out with dignity.
As far as when do you determine all options have been explored-that comes with medical diagnoses from more than one source stating that this is it for you.
How does someone communicate that they meant they want it after they lose function....living will
What and where is true misery is for each individual to decide. Once they get to that point, they should seek the help of a therapist to evaluate that this is truly what they want to do and not for any other reason than becoming chronically ill.
There is a huge difference in the outlook on life between a 6 year old and 70 year old, but you bring up a good point here. One which would need to then be deicded, is it ok to make that decision for a child. That's not something I could answer right now.
And finally, I don't take it lightly at all. Not even close. I don't think anyone who has answered does.

TheSlorax

I'm trying to talk my Mum into it. No dice.

She's not ill or anything - but she is really, REALLY irritating.

hahahah. I second this. if I can't talk her into it can she at least pay her own bills? she's been costing me way too much money lately.

penrbrown

And finally, I don't take it lightly at all. Not even close. I don't think anyone who has answered does.

I'm pretty sure a few of the responders do take it very lightly but that's because this is a fitness forum and the chit-chat, fun and games group of that forum.

Not exactly the place to expect intelligent discourse on a topic of this nature.

TheSlorax

And finally, I don't take it lightly at all. Not even close. I don't think anyone who has answered does.

I'm pretty sure a few of the responders do take it very lightly but that's because this is a fitness forum and the chit-chat, fun and games group of that forum.

Not exactly the place to expect intelligent discourse on a topic of this nature.

now I'm curious. where exactly do you expect any type of "intelligent discourse on a topic of this nature"? do you know something about people that I don't?

ashliejones13

If someone wants to kill themselves, they'll do it without help. Cry for attention much???

WeepingAngel81

And finally, I don't take it lightly at all. Not even close. I don't think anyone who has answered does.

I'm pretty sure a few of the responders do take it very lightly but that's because this is a fitness forum and the chit-chat, fun and games group of that forum.

Not exactly the place to expect intelligent discourse on a topic of this nature.

now I'm curious. where exactly do you expect any type of "intelligent discourse on a topic of this nature"? do you know something about people that I don't?

Well of course it's not a place to expect intelligent disclosure, but it still doesn't take away from the point that I don't think anyone here who has commented takes it lightly. Some may have fun with is, which is ok too, but that doesn't mean that they take it lightly when it comes down to the nitty gritty.

farmers_daughter

Darwinisim. At it's finest. LOL..

ladymiseryali

If someone wants to kill themselves, they'll do it without help. Cry for attention much???

Are you serious?:huh: Way to be ignorant of this topic. :noway:

whierd

If someone wants to kill themselves, they'll do it without help. Cry for attention much???

Are you serious?:huh: Way to be ignorant of this topic. :noway:

How can you be unignorant of this topic?

ladymiseryali

If someone wants to kill themselves, they'll do it without help. Cry for attention much???

Are you serious?:huh: Way to be ignorant of this topic. :noway:

How can you be unignorant of this topic?

By not making a stupid statement like the one I reacted to.

TheSlorax

And finally, I don't take it lightly at all. Not even close. I don't think anyone who has answered does.

I'm pretty sure a few of the responders do take it very lightly but that's because this is a fitness forum and the chit-chat, fun and games group of that forum.

Not exactly the place to expect intelligent discourse on a topic of this nature.

now I'm curious. where exactly do you expect any type of "intelligent discourse on a topic of this nature"? do you know something about people that I don't?

Well of course it's not a place to expect intelligent disclosure, but it still doesn't take away from the point that I don't think anyone here who has commented takes it lightly. Some may have fun with is, which is ok too, but that doesn't mean that they take it lightly when it comes down to the nitty gritty.

I understand what you're saying but the poster I quoted is clearly implying that people don't take it seriously because of the nature of the forum. this is not a topic that many people have the capacity to discuss intelligently in general, so I find it amusing that the guy I quoted seems to think he will find a better discussion on it elsewhere. you have a good point though... I just joked around about it, despite the topic being something I feel pretty strongly about. however, I don't feel the need to discuss this at length in the thread because, as I like to say, opinions are like brains - everyone has one but they're not always useful.

pinkledoodledoo

If someone wants to kill themselves, they'll do it without help. Cry for attention much???

Are you serious?:huh: Way to be ignorant of this topic. :noway:

How can you be unignorant of this topic?

By not making a stupid statement like the one I reacted to.

It's true. There's no bigger trigger for someone that's suicidal than someone telling them that it's just a cry for help.

WeepingAngel81

And finally, I don't take it lightly at all. Not even close. I don't think anyone who has answered does.

I'm pretty sure a few of the responders do take it very lightly but that's because this is a fitness forum and the chit-chat, fun and games group of that forum.

Not exactly the place to expect intelligent discourse on a topic of this nature.

now I'm curious. where exactly do you expect any type of "intelligent discourse on a topic of this nature"? do you know something about people that I don't?

Well of course it's not a place to expect intelligent disclosure, but it still doesn't take away from the point that I don't think anyone here who has commented takes it lightly. Some may have fun with is, which is ok too, but that doesn't mean that they take it lightly when it comes down to the nitty gritty.

I understand what you're saying but the poster I quoted is clearly implying that people don't take it seriously because of the nature of the forum. this is not a topic that many people have the capacity to discuss intelligently in general, so I find it amusing that the guy I quoted seems to think he will find a better discussion on it elsewhere. you have a good point though... I just joked around about it, despite the topic being something I feel pretty strongly about. however, I don't feel the need to discuss this at length in the thread because, as I like to say, opinions are like brains - everyone has one but they're not always useful.

I didn't mean to quote you in my last comment It was meant for the person above you. I like your brain analogy!

redheaddee

I feel that I should be able to determine how I die, since I have spent my whole life deciding how I live. Death with dignity.

Alex_is_Hawks

I think the person wanting to die defines suffering. Most people are aware of what happens to terminal cancer paitents (this is just an example) I think that once all hope of survival has been exhausted, and the person undergoes a mental health eval showing that they want to die to avoid that suffering then let them. I'm not talking about someone who is in debt up to their ears seeing no way out and wants to die simply becuase they don't want to work towards a better life. I'm talking about a person who knows what the end of their life will look like and wants to go out with dignity.
As far as when do you determine all options have been explored-that comes with medical diagnoses from more than one source stating that this is it for you.
How does someone communicate that they meant they want it after they lose function....living will
What and where is true misery is for each individual to decide. Once they get to that point, they should seek the help of a therapist to evaluate that this is truly what they want to do and not for any other reason than becoming chronically ill.
There is a huge difference in the outlook on life between a 6 year old and 70 year old, but you bring up a good point here. One which would need to then be deicded, is it ok to make that decision for a child. That's not something I could answer right now.
And finally, I don't take it lightly at all. Not even close. I don't think anyone who has answered does.

Again, who does the evaluation, who determines when pain is enough and isn't enough, first you said it was the sufferer then you said the sufferer had to pass evaluations, they aren't assessing their pain then. Someone else is, someone else who has an idea of what pain is "enough" yet isn't experiencing said pain.

All options have been exhausted: this never happens. For example, I'm deaf, legally deaf, I function too well for the cochlear, plus there's the issue of the fact that a cochlear implant destroys your ears for all functionality. So you do it, you do it, no turning back. You take a chance. however there is new technology out there. Tech they are saying is "soon" to be available. Do I hold off? do I wait? Do I take the plunge?

Who makes THOSE decisions, who decides those questions.

Patient A is suffering, wants to die.

Does the paperwork, does the evaluations, and the doc says, sorry but no go, we don't think you are ready yet, you didn't pass the eval AND we have new options coming up soon.

but the patient is in pain and indignity NOW and wants to die.

Who makes that choice?

Who has that right?

these questions are NOT black and white. they just aren't.