Are Oreos more addicting than cocaine/morphine?
Replies
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(I'm a neuroscientist who has worked with a rat model of cocaine addiction and relapse.)
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The physical withdrawal from some drugs (especially heroin/morphine) is much worse than any physical effects of quitting sugar, which is what a lot of you are getting at in your comments, but sugar does have a higher reward value in that animals will work harder for it and will prefer it to various drugs of abuse when given a choice.
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Just a question for the scientist... could it be that rats go more for sugar because they are a fuel for their body and by instincts people look for fuel in order to survive vs drugs that don't have a nutritional value? (or do they?)0 -
If sugar is addictive, how do you explain the fact that millions or billions of people can eat it occasionally and not have any withdrawal symptoms when they don't eat any?
Sugar is not addictive. Some people might display compulsive eating behaviors, and may have a preference for sugary foods, but that doesn't mean it's addictive.
... millions of people also occasionally use drugs for medical reasons and do not because addicted.... I've taken morphine after surgeries and didn't have withdrawals... I don't understand the relevance of this statement.0 -
You know, I've discussed this before. Oreos are sweet. Sweet stimulates sensory organs. Cocaine is a narcotic... it does not stimulate sensory organs. Dopamine is released faster with food, and does not last nearly as long. Obviously, a rat is going to choose sweet food over a narcotic substance because it is their instinct to eat food and sweet makes it more attractive. It is not, however, their instinct to snort cocaine.
I'm sorry but I feel like this study is just dumb! Besides, rats have a completely different physiology than humans anyway.
But they didn't pick oreos over a narcotic, they chose oreos over rice cakes.. now put drugs and oreo in the same maze and see what happens?0 -
Oreos are a gateway drug for me..
It start with Oreos, lead to ice cream, and ends with cocaine...
If you start with Cocaine, you won't want the Oreos or ice cream. Just sayin.
YES! But you may drink too much alcohol because you don't feel drunk so my guess is it'd be a wash lol
Why drink alcohol with your cocaine? That seems wasteful to me.
It is
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Give a drug addict the choice between cocaine and an oreo.... they'll pick the cocaine everytime.
yeah, because they're addicted to DRUGS... duhhhhh. Give an Oreo addict the choice and they pick the Oreo's every time lol0 -
Are we still on this??
I just want you to know that on my cheat day this weekend, I am buying Oreos.
Cheat? Oreos aren't cheating. They're just fats and carbs, with a touch of protein. Adding milk bumps the protein. :flowerforyou:
I like you
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Give a drug addict the choice between cocaine and an oreo.... they'll pick the cocaine everytime.
not this addict although if the choice is cannabis or alcohol you might have a close call0 -
Give a drug addict the choice between cocaine and an oreo.... they'll pick the cocaine everytime.
not this addict although if the choice is cannabis or alcohol you might have a close call
lol. Alchol would win for me but if I wanted to puke, both might happen ;p0 -
I would say Oreos are more like weed. Your brain gets a little high from the sugar, but no physical dependency..0
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No one sits around all day eating oreos until their life falls apart around them. There have been no instances back when sugar was a rare commodity (that I know of) where people killed so they could get their sugar fix. People who are seriously addicted to cocaine and heroin neglect to take care of themselves and that includes forgetting to eat. Even oreos.
Personal anecdote but my life got to this point. I almost lost my job because I was caught taking extra food from the cafeteria, my boss came into my office and found it piled with empty soda cups, all I looked forward to after work was coming home and eating, I ate until it hurt, I'd leave the trash on the floor, I wouldnt talk to family, my coworkers started to comment on my hygiene and honestly I'd stay up all night eating, playing on the computer barely roll out of bed with no time for a shower. My binges and how I would create them was all I would really think about, working for each paycheck it went to rent, gas, and food, I could easily blow $500 for one week of binge just on going out to fast food and purchasing groceries. My Mom cried in front of me when she finally came out to visit. She was disgusted at the house and the weight I had gained. I truly had spiraled out of control. She did help me, but I would continue to lie and hide my addiction.
I still have days when it literally hurts and I just want to binge so bad. I just want to hide myself and be with my food. The fight not to go back is tremendous it occurs with every meal, and if I dont fight then I easily fall back into addictive patterns (because food is the one substance you dont get to abstain from). Food numbs, it can take away pain, yes Virginia it is addictive.
you seem to lack the understanding of what addiction really is. Your problem is most likely due to coping mechanisms or even a neurological problem where satiety cannot be reached.
Most people abuse drugs and alcohol as a coping mechanism. Can't speak from the neurological aspect, but I suspect that type of condition is rare.
the thing is that there is an chemical addiction for drugs, this doesnt apply the same for food. its different.
Dependence is dependence. Regardless of whether it is a chemical or just a compulsion, ultimately, the brain responds the exact same way when the dependence is satisfied.
Like I said earlier, dependence will occur far faster with chemicals than with food because our bodies are meant to consume food, but that doesn't mean that dependence cannot be created.
Again, it takes a lot to become "dependent" on food the way that a junkie is dependent upon heroine. But it's not impossible, and dismissing food addiction is just as offensive to the true food addict as blaming a lack of will power on addiction is to a narcotic addict.
An eating disorder is not the same as an addiction. The sooner you stop treating them as the same thing the better for your health. Your problem isn't a physical addiction, it's a psychological compulsion. Well, IANAD, but that's how it seems from what you've said.
In any case, unless you've been both a junkie and a "food addict", I don't think you should compare the two as glibly as you have.
Nope addiction is addiction all wrong I'll never agree. I adopted many of the steps my brother took to beat his cocaine addiction and it's changed my life 180. 12 steps is a wonderful way, and many benefit from OA. I've given it to a higher power, I've dealt with the physical withdraw from not having my coping mechanism, the emotional emptiness from no longer having my substance of abuse.
Sorry preach all you want I'm an addict will always be one and will always have to manage my addiction and fight my demons every day if I want to succeed.
It's very interesting I couldnt admit I had a problem until I saw my brother finally changing his life. I would call him on the days when I wanted to binge or hurt myself. He was my accountability. He taught me how to give it to the that higher power. I held him up when he came home from Afghan and was confronted with cocaine. We've held each other up. Fighting our addictions have brought us close together. Different substances but without him and sharing his personal demon I'd not be where I am today. Thank you God.
PS-those neurotransmitters in your brain dont care if it comes from cocaine, speed, nicotine, gambling, sex, alcohol, food, heroine or jumping out of plane. All the brains knows is it feels damn good.
PSS-this mindset has served me quite well to advance my goals0 -
Oreos are a gateway drug for me..
It start with Oreos, lead to ice cream, and ends with cocaine...
If you start with Cocaine, you won't want the Oreos or ice cream. Just sayin.
the cocaine high + Oreo sugar high = heaven on earth...
I like to call it Oreocaining....0 -
Oreos are a gateway drug for me..
It start with Oreos, lead to ice cream, and ends with cocaine...
If you start with Cocaine, you won't want the Oreos or ice cream. Just sayin.
the cocaine high + Oreo sugar high = heaven on earth...
I like to call it Oreocaining....
definitely eat the Oreos before the coke.0 -
Alan Aragon certainly isn't an expert in this area. He has a Master of Science in Nutrition and he would have limited understanding of complex neurobiological mechanisms as well as suitable and acceptable methodology for certain types of studies. For example, would he understand and be able to interpret studies on regulation of certain types of receptors in discrete brain regions in response to certain nutrients? In my opinion, it's important to understand the limitations of 'fitness gurus" and other 'experts' and be a little open-minded to other perspectives.
Read the article and it will explain some of the methods used such as brain imaging, gene and protein expression studies, behavioral studies etc. I posted details from a review article for that very reason. It is controversial but there is a good deal of evidence to suggest that addiction to certain foods is highly likely in some individuals. I'm not certain why the strong opposition to the idea.
So what instrument are they using to determine the addictiveness of the foods?
What is the dependency?
The article you posted is highly controversial and right now sugar addiction is inconclusive.
so what will happen with the withdrawal of these particular foods?
brain imaging only does so much to see what addiction can cause. there. Alan Aragon has talked about the poorly controlled studies. Regardless, sugar and the any drug should not be compared. People have seen the similar effect of people who chronically exercise and release of dopamine, then they compare that to a "drug".
i understand it can exist in a few though
I guess you are though because you do understand it can exist in some people.
but the "food Addiction" I believe is the same thing as the "runners high".
Its should not be considered similar as drugs like what they are trying to portray, it is just media trying to make it seem more read-worthy
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2786257/0 -
but the "food Addiction" I believe is the same thing as the "runners high".
Its should not be considered similar as drugs like what they are trying to portray, it is just media trying to make it seem more read-worthy
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2786257/
Just from reading the abstract 'These findings support the hypothesis that exercise-induced increases in endogenous opioid peptides act in a manner similar to chronic administration of opiate drugs.' (in reference to withdrawal symptoms)
And you state that you think that the same applies to foods.
You are communicating that food consumption / the 'running high' and that opiate drugs all lead to withdrawal... leading to believe that someone could get addicted to any of these as in the end they all potentially cause withdrawals.
So why are you saying that it 'should not be considered similar as drugs like what they are trying to portray', since that is the point that you just made in the first part of your sentence? (or was the abstract missing key information? Showing how easily people and the media can be misled?)0 -
but the "food Addiction" I believe is the same thing as the "runners high".
Its should not be considered similar as drugs like what they are trying to portray, it is just media trying to make it seem more read-worthy
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2786257/
Just from reading the abstract 'These findings support the hypothesis that exercise-induced increases in endogenous opioid peptides act in a manner similar to chronic administration of opiate drugs.' (in reference to withdrawal symptoms)
And you state that you think that the same applies to foods.
You are communicating that food consumption / the 'running high' and that opiate drugs all lead to withdrawal... leading to believe that someone could get addicted to any of these as in the end they all potentially cause withdrawals.
So why are you saying that it 'should not be considered similar as drugs like what they are trying to portray', since that is the point that you just made in the first part of your sentence? (or was the abstract missing key information? Showing how easily people and the media can be misled?)
"These findings support the hypothesis that exercise-induced increases in endogenous opioid peptides act in a manner similar to chronic administration of opiate drugs."
The rats were already addicted to the drug, it showed that active rats had a harder time to withdraw from it.
What I stated is only skepticism, there is not enough evidence right now to see if the "sugar addiction" is based solely on sugar or the dopa-mine releasing action itself
"The previous results strengthen the proposal that running and drugs of abuse activate similar neural pathways. More specifically, it has been proposed that the rewarding properties of both running and drugs of abuse are related to the activation of the dopaminergic reward pathways "
all of them were given drugs, some of them had a higher tolerance and had a higher dependency on the drug.
The main point of this is was merely a thought..
yea i was talking about how the sugar and cocaine addiction can mislead the media. even though it wasnt portrayed properly.
what sounds better? doing a sugar study and the chemical dependency on the brain(I know this wasnt done) or Sugar is like crystal meth?0 -
Are we still on this??
I just want you to know that on my cheat day this weekend, I am buying Oreos.
Cheat? Oreos aren't cheating. They're just fats and carbs, with a touch of protein. Adding milk bumps the protein. :flowerforyou:
Of course I'll be adding milk, gotta dip em'. So, is a whole bag of Oreos cheating? Once I start, there's no turning back.0 -
Give a drug addict the choice between cocaine and an oreo.... they'll pick the cocaine everytime.
I am not a drug addict and I would choose the cocaine. If it were morphine, I would choose the Oreo.0 -
That's all I have to add.0 -
Are we still on this??
I just want you to know that on my cheat day this weekend, I am buying Oreos.
Cheat? Oreos aren't cheating. They're just fats and carbs, with a touch of protein. Adding milk bumps the protein. :flowerforyou:
Of course I'll be adding milk, gotta dip em'. So, is a whole bag of Oreos cheating? Once I start, there's no turning back.
Not "cheating," I think, but an invitation to nausea, indigestion, heartburn, etc. :laugh:0 -
Give a drug addict the choice between cocaine and an oreo.... they'll pick the cocaine everytime.
I am not a drug addict and I would choose the cocaine. If it were morphine, I would choose the Oreo.
Ditto! I hate morphine! It makes me itchy. I think I would prefer amphetamines to cocaine though. Cocaine makes my nose hurt. :ohwell:
:laugh:0 -
(I'm a neuroscientist who has worked with a rat model of cocaine addiction and relapse.)
...
The physical withdrawal from some drugs (especially heroin/morphine) is much worse than any physical effects of quitting sugar, which is what a lot of you are getting at in your comments, but sugar does have a higher reward value in that animals will work harder for it and will prefer it to various drugs of abuse when given a choice.
...
Just a question for the scientist... could it be that rats go more for sugar because they are a fuel for their body and by instincts people look for fuel in order to survive vs drugs that don't have a nutritional value? (or do they?)
Bingo!0 -
That's all I have to add.
Honestly, from a marketing standpoint, that is brilliant! You should write Nabisco.0 -
Ditto! I hate morphine! It makes me itchy. I think I would prefer amphetamines to cocaine though. Cocaine makes my nose hurt. :ohwell:
:laugh:
You're doing too much if your nose hurts. This is where the drinking comes in handy. Not wasteful if you can still breathe now is it?!
:laugh: 0 -
I am an unusual person who doesn't like Oreos.0
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That's all I have to add.
Honestly, from a marketing standpoint, that is brilliant! You should write Nabisco.
Agreed!!!:drinker:0 -
I am an unusual person who doesn't like Oreos.
I don't care for them either. Too "strong" as a cookie. I wouldn't mind it in ice cream or as the shell of a pie but as a cookie I feel I could do better lol0 -
Ditto! I hate morphine! It makes me itchy. I think I would prefer amphetamines to cocaine though. Cocaine makes my nose hurt. :ohwell:
:laugh:
Order of preference.....
MDA
Cocaine
Alcohol
Oreos
Morphine
Alcohol and Oreos might be tied.....
vvvvvvvvvv way down the list, in the negatives..... vvvvvvvvvv
Amphetamines.0 -
Ditto! I hate morphine! It makes me itchy. I think I would prefer amphetamines to cocaine though. Cocaine makes my nose hurt. :ohwell:
:laugh:
Order of preference.....
MDA
Cocaine
Alcohol
Oreos
Morphine
Alcohol and Oreos might be tied.....
vvvvvvvvvv way down the list, in the negatives..... vvvvvvvvvv
Amphetamines.
Not trying to rain on your parade, but you guys are taking this thread into "guidelines" territory.0 -
Ditto! I hate morphine! It makes me itchy. I think I would prefer amphetamines to cocaine though. Cocaine makes my nose hurt. :ohwell:
:laugh:
Order of preference.....
MDA
Cocaine
Alcohol
Oreos
Morphine
Alcohol and Oreos might be tied.....
vvvvvvvvvv way down the list, in the negatives..... vvvvvvvvvv
Amphetamines.
Edited so I don't get arrested and this very important thread on food addiction can go on. I dont' want people taking responsibility for their food intake on my conscience lol0 -
Ditto! I hate morphine! It makes me itchy. I think I would prefer amphetamines to cocaine though. Cocaine makes my nose hurt. :ohwell:
:laugh:
Order of preference.....
MDA
Cocaine
Alcohol
Oreos
Morphine
Alcohol and Oreos might be tied.....
vvvvvvvvvv way down the list, in the negatives..... vvvvvvvvvv
Amphetamines.
Not trying to rain on your parade, but you guys are taking this thread into "guidelines" territory.
alright alright lol0
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