calories in calories out...are you sure?

jonnythan

I get SO confused with this. So carbs are stored as glycogen & water as food, in the muscles? W hat about when fat is burned, doesn't that get turned into glycogen & water, too? Also - what happens with the water thing when you hit maintenance - do you go up 3lb when you start eating your maintenance calories?

Sorry for the hijack, OP!

Carbs can be stored as glycogen. So can protein and fats.

It's energy that gets stored as glycogen. Glycogen is your body's primary source of fuel when you start moving. As the free sugar in your blood gets used, glycogen gets broken down to maintain blood sugar levels. As glycogen gets depleted, it turns primarily to fat stores and/or other body tissue to maintain blood sugar levels.

When your body has excess calories, they typically first get stored as glycogen. Glycogen storage also requires water. So if you eat a big calorie surplus after dieting for a while, your weight will bump up a few pounds as you replenish a bunch of glycogen. Then excess calories start getting stored as fat.

Think of glycogen as short-term calorie storage and adipose tissue (fat) as long-term calorie storage. Glycogen is fast and easily utilized, but there's a limited capacity of it. Fat is a bit slower but more stable over time and you can store more energy there.

mrscool5

I find I overestimated my carbs more...ie I think i ate a serving of cereal at 3/4 cups but really it was 1 cup but I will actually count out almonds. A hard boiled egg is a definite serving while a handful of pretzels is close to one serving. Maybe the protein you are eating are more exact in how they are logged, knowing that no entry is 100% valid, but you were guesstimating more on your carbs???

I guess I could have been. I will keep a closer eye. I'm still eating the same things and I'm still eating all of my calories each day. the only things i changed was eating less carbs and adding more protein now my scale is moving. it still confuses me how those who are on low carb diets lose so much weight, but other posters say it's just the water.. does my body hold 80 lbs of extra water? but I will make sure my foods are more accurate in portion sizes. Thanks!

:noway: Hey cool, does that mean I'm not overweight, I'm really just a camel carrying around a LOOOOOOOOOT of water?:laugh:

LOL

p4ulmiller

I get SO confused with this. So carbs are stored as glycogen & water as food, in the muscles? W hat about when fat is burned, doesn't that get turned into glycogen & water, too? Also - what happens with the water thing when you hit maintenance - do you go up 3lb when you start eating your maintenance calories?

Sorry for the hijack, OP!

Yes. Which is why you have to eat less AND move more. Moving more uses the glycogen and you excrete the water through sweat and other bodily functions.

If you don't move more, you risk losing muscle mass at a faster rate than fat.

BrandNewFabulousMe

I find I overestimated my carbs more...ie I think i ate a serving of cereal at 3/4 cups but really it was 1 cup but I will actually count out almonds. A hard boiled egg is a definite serving while a handful of pretzels is close to one serving. Maybe the protein you are eating are more exact in how they are logged, knowing that no entry is 100% valid, but you were guesstimating more on your carbs???

I guess I could have been. I will keep a closer eye. I'm still eating the same things and I'm still eating all of my calories each day. the only things i changed was eating less carbs and adding more protein now my scale is moving. it still confuses me how those who are on low carb diets lose so much weight, but other posters say it's just the water.. does my body hold 80 lbs of extra water? but I will make sure my foods are more accurate in portion sizes. Thanks!

:noway: Hey cool, does that mean I'm not overweight, I'm really just a camel carrying around a LOOOOOOOOOT of water?:laugh:

LOL

lmbo!

Hildy_J

I get SO confused with this. So carbs are stored as glycogen & water as food, in the muscles? W hat about when fat is burned, doesn't that get turned into glycogen & water, too? Also - what happens with the water thing when you hit maintenance - do you go up 3lb when you start eating your maintenance calories?

Sorry for the hijack, OP!

Carbs can be stored as glycogen. So can protein and fats.

It's energy that gets stored as glycogen. Glycogen is your body's primary source of fuel when you start moving. As the free sugar in your blood gets used, glycogen gets broken down to maintain blood sugar levels. As glycogen gets depleted, it turns primarily to fat stores and/or other body tissue to maintain blood sugar levels.

When your body has excess calories, they typically first get stored as glycogen. Glycogen storage also requires water. So if you eat a big calorie surplus after dieting for a while, your weight will bump up a few pounds as you replenish a bunch of glycogen. Then excess calories start getting stored as fat.

Think of glycogen as short-term calorie storage and adipose tissue (fat) as long-term calorie storage. Glycogen is fast and easily utilized, but there's a limited capacity of it. Fat is a bit slower but more stable over time and you can store more energy there.

Thank you! So whether it's carbs or fat or protein you're eating it's entirely irrelevant to the glycogen & water levels you're holding? Just double-checkin...

Interesting stuff. So Atkins etc... & other low carb weight-loss programmes - it's all irrelevant, just calories?

Hildy_J

I get SO confused with this. So carbs are stored as glycogen & water as food, in the muscles? W hat about when fat is burned, doesn't that get turned into glycogen & water, too? Also - what happens with the water thing when you hit maintenance - do you go up 3lb when you start eating your maintenance calories?

Sorry for the hijack, OP!

Yes. Which is why you have to eat less AND move more. Moving more uses the glycogen and you excrete the water through sweat and other bodily functions.

If you don't move more, you risk losing muscle mass at a faster rate than fat.

Let's not take it too far, now. This sofa is very, VERY comfortable, Just sittin here respiring, keeping myself warm, letting my organs do their thing...

jonnythan

I get SO confused with this. So carbs are stored as glycogen & water as food, in the muscles? W hat about when fat is burned, doesn't that get turned into glycogen & water, too? Also - what happens with the water thing when you hit maintenance - do you go up 3lb when you start eating your maintenance calories?

Sorry for the hijack, OP!

Carbs can be stored as glycogen. So can protein and fats.

It's energy that gets stored as glycogen. Glycogen is your body's primary source of fuel when you start moving. As the free sugar in your blood gets used, glycogen gets broken down to maintain blood sugar levels. As glycogen gets depleted, it turns primarily to fat stores and/or other body tissue to maintain blood sugar levels.

When your body has excess calories, they typically first get stored as glycogen. Glycogen storage also requires water. So if you eat a big calorie surplus after dieting for a while, your weight will bump up a few pounds as you replenish a bunch of glycogen. Then excess calories start getting stored as fat.

Think of glycogen as short-term calorie storage and adipose tissue (fat) as long-term calorie storage. Glycogen is fast and easily utilized, but there's a limited capacity of it. Fat is a bit slower but more stable over time and you can store more energy there.

Thank you! So whether it's carbs or fat or protein you're eating it's entirely irrelevant to the glycogen & water levels you're holding? Just double-checkin...

Interesting stuff. So Atkins etc... & other low carb weight-loss programmes - it's all irrelevant, just calories?

To the first part: pretty much, yes. There are some differences at the extremes, and protein plays a factor, but when it comes to body mass change it's calories that matter.

For the second part: carbs are basically irrelevant for weight loss. You want to make sure you get sufficient fat intake, since insufficient fat intake leads to problems with hormone levels and skin/nails/hair/brain function. You want to make sure you get plenty of protein, because protein intake helps preserve lean mass. You can't really get too much fat or protein unless you try, so carbs are kind of a sliding scale. You can reasonably get anywhere from no carb to "whatever's left over after you hit your fat and protein minimum." Very low carb can have negative effects on energy levels and will lead to some changes in body chemistry over time but don't have much effect on fat loss specifically.

In the end, calories are all that really matter for mass loss or gain. If your body has excess energy available, it will store it away as body mass. If your body is using more energy than it gets, it will break down some body mass to make up the difference.

Hildy_J

I get SO confused with this. So carbs are stored as glycogen & water as food, in the muscles? W hat about when fat is burned, doesn't that get turned into glycogen & water, too? Also - what happens with the water thing when you hit maintenance - do you go up 3lb when you start eating your maintenance calories?

Sorry for the hijack, OP!

Carbs can be stored as glycogen. So can protein and fats.

It's energy that gets stored as glycogen. Glycogen is your body's primary source of fuel when you start moving. As the free sugar in your blood gets used, glycogen gets broken down to maintain blood sugar levels. As glycogen gets depleted, it turns primarily to fat stores and/or other body tissue to maintain blood sugar levels.

When your body has excess calories, they typically first get stored as glycogen. Glycogen storage also requires water. So if you eat a big calorie surplus after dieting for a while, your weight will bump up a few pounds as you replenish a bunch of glycogen. Then excess calories start getting stored as fat.

Think of glycogen as short-term calorie storage and adipose tissue (fat) as long-term calorie storage. Glycogen is fast and easily utilized, but there's a limited capacity of it. Fat is a bit slower but more stable over time and you can store more energy there.

Thank you! So whether it's carbs or fat or protein you're eating it's entirely irrelevant to the glycogen & water levels you're holding? Just double-checkin...

Interesting stuff. So Atkins etc... & other low carb weight-loss programmes - it's all irrelevant, just calories?

To the first part: pretty much, yes. There are some differences at the extremes, and protein plays a factor, but when it comes to body mass change it's calories that matter.

For the second part: carbs are basically irrelevant for weight loss. You want to make sure you get sufficient fat intake, since insufficient fat intake leads to problems with hormone levels and skin/nails/hair/brain function. You want to make sure you get plenty of protein, because protein intake helps preserve lean mass. You can't really get too much fat or protein unless you try, so carbs are kind of a sliding scale. You can reasonably get anywhere from no carb to "whatever's left over after you hit your fat and protein minimum." Very low carb can have negative effects on energy levels and will lead to some changes in body chemistry over time but don't have much effect on fat loss specifically.

In the end, calories are all that really matter for mass loss or gain. If your body has excess energy available, it will store it away as body mass. If your body is using more energy than it gets, it will break down some body mass to make up the difference.

Great stuff, much appreciated! Also... who are you and what have you done with Jonnythan? :bigsmile:

jonnythan

Great stuff, much appreciated! Also... who are you and what have you done with Jonnythan? :bigsmile:

When people ask legitimate questions for which I know answers or have helpful information, I often answer. Believe it or not, I have helped many people on this site and others (and real life) understand this stuff and change their lives.

When people say things that are wrong, or attack legitimate science or fact, I often respond critically.

There's a reason you personally have seen more of the latter than the former.

BrandNewFabulousMe

I get SO confused with this. So carbs are stored as glycogen & water as food, in the muscles? W hat about when fat is burned, doesn't that get turned into glycogen & water, too? Also - what happens with the water thing when you hit maintenance - do you go up 3lb when you start eating your maintenance calories?

Sorry for the hijack, OP!

Carbs can be stored as glycogen. So can protein and fats.

It's energy that gets stored as glycogen. Glycogen is your body's primary source of fuel when you start moving. As the free sugar in your blood gets used, glycogen gets broken down to maintain blood sugar levels. As glycogen gets depleted, it turns primarily to fat stores and/or other body tissue to maintain blood sugar levels.

When your body has excess calories, they typically first get stored as glycogen. Glycogen storage also requires water. So if you eat a big calorie surplus after dieting for a while, your weight will bump up a few pounds as you replenish a bunch of glycogen. Then excess calories start getting stored as fat.

Think of glycogen as short-term calorie storage and adipose tissue (fat) as long-term calorie storage. Glycogen is fast and easily utilized, but there's a limited capacity of it. Fat is a bit slower but more stable over time and you can store more energy there.

Thank you! So whether it's carbs or fat or protein you're eating it's entirely irrelevant to the glycogen & water levels you're holding? Just double-checkin...

Interesting stuff. So Atkins etc... & other low carb weight-loss programmes - it's all irrelevant, just calories?

To the first part: pretty much, yes. There are some differences at the extremes, and protein plays a factor, but when it comes to body mass change it's calories that matter.

For the second part: carbs are basically irrelevant for weight loss. You want to make sure you get sufficient fat intake, since insufficient fat intake leads to problems with hormone levels and skin/nails/hair/brain function. You want to make sure you get plenty of protein, because protein intake helps preserve lean mass. You can't really get too much fat or protein unless you try, so carbs are kind of a sliding scale. You can reasonably get anywhere from no carb to "whatever's left over after you hit your fat and protein minimum." Very low carb can have negative effects on energy levels and will lead to some changes in body chemistry over time but don't have much effect on fat loss specifically.

In the end, calories are all that really matter for mass loss or gain. If your body has excess energy available, it will store it away as body mass. If your body is using more energy than it gets, it will break down some body mass to make up the difference.

^^^ ahaaaaa moment. ..got it

BrandNewFabulousMe

Great stuff, much appreciated! Also... who are you and what have you done with Jonnythan? :bigsmile:

When people ask legitimate questions for which I know answers or have helpful information, I often answer. Believe it or not, I have helped many people on this site and others (and real life) understand this stuff and change their lives.

When people say things that are wrong, or attack legitimate science or fact, I often respond critically.

There's a reason you personally have seen more of the latter than the former.

thank u for all of your info!

mmapags

Great and accurate info in this thread from Jonnythan and others. An additional thought is that you don't necessarily have to gain back water weight when going to maintenance. It depends on the aggressiveness of your deficit and your macro mix.

When in deficit, I typically go TDEE - 20%. This leaves me adequate calories to hit my protein goal, my fats goal and have enough left for 150 grams or so of carbs. When I shift to maintenance, there is not the glycogen depletion issues and I've maintained a high percentage of lean mass and lost mostly fat. This is somewhat the basis to Venuto's "Burn the Fat, Feed the Muscle" theory. This minimizes LBM loss and glycogen depletion so little to no water weight gain when shifting to maintenance.


This gives better gym performance and helps you to burn mostly fat and lose the least amount of lean body mass. It is a slower way to weight loss and requires more patience but it is effective long run. As Jonnythan said, it is not complicated. Just get .8 - 1 gram of protein per lb of lean body mass, .35 to .4 grams of fat per lb of body weight and carbs with the rest. You'll get adequate carbs this way.

PS: It's nice to see a thread on the subject without the low carbers jumping in with a lot of nonsense. (so far)

Hildy_J

When people ask legitimate questions for which I know answers or have helpful information, I often answer. Believe it or not, I have helped many people on this site and others (and real life) understand this stuff and change their lives.

When people say things that are wrong, or attack legitimate science or fact, I often respond critically.

Fair enough - but it's obvious that you're pretty smart and could do much better. When you're criticising, it might be an idea to sandwich it (ie use assertive techniques ie 'nice/positive' 'you may be wrong here' nice/positive'). Also remember that respectful criticism unpicks the information, NOT the person.

Also there's a time to engage and a time to take a deep breath and walk away.

soapyapples

I weight my food or scan the packaging/input exactly how much where ever possible. I'm actually getting a little bit anal about this and find it annoying that I don't know exactly the portion sizes when I eat lunch at work, and have started bringing my own lunch just so I know exactly how much I'm eating.

Buy a food scale and track everything, everything, everything. I've lost 15Ib so far and am very pleased. It's a little irksome sometimes. My husband typically gets through half his dinner before I've finished weighing/tracking and start eating, but it's worth it.

jonnythan

Fair enough - but it's obvious that you're pretty smart and could do much better. When you're criticising, it might be an idea to sandwich it (ie use assertive techniques ie 'nice/positive' 'you may be wrong here' nice/positive'). Also remember that respectful criticism unpicks the information, NOT the person.

Also there's a time to engage and a time to take a deep breath and walk away.

Hey thanks for the totally unsolicited advice! That's great. Totally appreciated.

Hildy_J

Fair enough - but it's obvious that you're pretty smart and could do much better. When you're criticising, it might be an idea to sandwich it (ie use assertive techniques ie 'nice/positive' 'you may be wrong here' nice/positive'). Also remember that respectful criticism unpicks the information, NOT the person.

Also there's a time to engage and a time to take a deep breath and walk away.

Hey thanks for the totally unsolicited advice! That's great. Totally appreciated.

My absolute pleasure. Go get 'em Tiger! I believe in you. :bigsmile:

kenzietate

I just wanted to add, it is possible for the OP to have some level of carb sensitivity regardless of being diagnosed with insulin resistance or anything else. The way my dietitian explained it was, everyone can handle a certain amount of carbs in their system before insulin immediately starts turning it to fat. For the average person this level is so high that when eating at a deficit or maintenance there is no way for them to hit that level, so for them the calories in, calories out works great. The the other end of the scale are diabetics and those who are insulin resistance. These people's carb level is very low especially if there is no medication help. Then there are those in the middle who are not necessarily insulin resistant or pre-diabetic but the carb load is lower than the average person. This might be due to metabolism, genetics and past habits. These people see much better results when lowering their carb intake while for the average person this isn't necessary to see the same results.

husseycd

I made the same changes in my diet and dropped about 10-12lbs (and several inches. Weight varies with water retention). The first 6 dropped almost instantly when I reduced carbs. If I eat too many carbs, like I splurge on some bread, I'll almost instantly gain 3 lbs. All water I know. But while I know the first few lbs tend to be water, I am actually smaller. About 2" less on all my measurements--waist, hip, thigh.

However, as a general diet I love it. I'm less hungry, crave less sweets, and am thinner and leaner than I have been since high school. I also have several friends who have lost 20-30 lbs with this type of diet. Neither track, and I didn't really track prior, so actual calories are probably less, but it seems to be an easy way for people to lose weight without starving. There are just so many calories in crackers and bread and neither are very filling...

BrandNewFabulousMe

I made the same changes in my diet and dropped about 10-12lbs (and several inches. Weight varies with water retention). The first 6 dropped almost instantly when I reduced carbs. If I eat too many carbs, like I splurge on some bread, I'll almost instantly gain 3 lbs. All water I know. But while I know the first few lbs tend to be water, I am actually smaller. About 2" less on all my measurements--waist, hip, thigh.

However, as a general diet I love it. I'm less hungry, crave less sweets, and am thinner and leaner than I have been since high school. I also have several friends who have lost 20-30 lbs with this type of diet. Neither track, and I didn't really track prior, so actual calories are probably less, but it seems to be an easy way for people to lose weight without starving. There are just so many calories in crackers and bread and neither are very filling...

awesome!!! See there is someone who knows how I feel

marypatmccue

Fair enough - but it's obvious that you're pretty smart and could do much better. When you're criticising, it might be an idea to sandwich it (ie use assertive techniques ie 'nice/positive' 'you may be wrong here' nice/positive'). Also remember that respectful criticism unpicks the information, NOT the person.

Also there's a time to engage and a time to take a deep breath and walk away.

Hey thanks for the totally unsolicited advice! That's great. Totally appreciated.

We love you Jonny!!