A call to more heavily regulate the supplement industry

jonnythan

The bottom line is that the market is NOT taking care of these things. The market has largely NOT taken care of purity, content, efficacy, and safety. The market has NOT taken care of scientifically establishing efficacy. The market has NOT taken care of scientifically establishing side effects. The market has NOT taken care of misleading labeling.

These things are - right now - actual problems. People are spending billions of dollars a year on unregulated supplements being marketed to them for essentially specious purposes. The market has not fixed this.

I wouldn't either if people are happy to spend billions on my crap.

Exactly. People are so happy to lap this stuff up, there's no market pressure for any of it. The public clearly doesn't give a damn if the stuff actually works, as long as some "expert" goes on TV and tells them it does.

Carnivor0us

I am not saying that a company shouldnt be able to sell whatever herb/supplement they wish. Just that laws and regulations be in place that:

-Ensure they are not making false claims (Like Extenz, the male enhancement supplement, NOT ONE DAMN INCH!!!)
-Ensure that they contain exactly what they claim.
-Ensure a minimum purity standard.

This is pretty damn basic.

I know right?

I agree that the label ought to be consistent with what is actually in the product; I think the purity standard you speak of rolls into the previous statement. As far as I know, there already are some regulations regarding what these companies can and cannot claim (i.e. they cannot claim to cure, treat, or prevent illnesses).

They largely get around that sort of thing by alluding to it helping with something. "Ancient Chinese herbalists used x to treat y." or "X may be useful in preventing Y."

In that case, people need to use the most powerful educational tool to ever exist in the history of mankind - that's likely on their cell phone - and do a little research on those claims before blindly buying it.

"Research" is an incredibly difficult thing, when marketers are allowed to say almost anything they want about a product.

The industry is full of "experts" linking to "research" and saying this and that. It's pretty much impossible for a layperson to sort through the noise and separate fact from marketing claims.

So... What separates you and your research from other people? Are they less capable than you've been? Perhaps they're incapable of using some common sense?

I'm rather highly educated. I have college-level education in multiple disciplines of science and research. I have a degree in a hard science (biology). I have professional experience with actual live clinical research. I am a graduate student in public health. I am, forgive me for my arrogance, rather more intelligent than the vast majority of Americans.

I have a rather higher ability to sort out "science" from "marketing" than most people, yes.

Education isn't intelligence, although I'm not questioning your IQ or anything.

jonnythan

I'm rather highly educated. I have college-level education in multiple disciplines of science and research. I have a degree in a hard science (biology). I have professional experience with actual live clinical research. I am a graduate student in public health. I am, forgive me for my arrogance, rather more intelligent than the vast majority of Americans.

I have a rather higher ability to sort out "science" from "marketing" than most people, yes.

Education isn't intelligence, although I'm not questioning your IQ or anything.

That's why I listed intelligence and education separately. The line about intelligence wasn't a conclusion from the previous lines, though I see it can look that way.

Besides, my education, which is largely in science, public health, and research, is extremely relevant to my ability to make informed decisions for myself about supplements.

wheird

I am not saying that a company shouldnt be able to sell whatever herb/supplement they wish. Just that laws and regulations be in place that:

-Ensure they are not making false claims (Like Extenz, the male enhancement supplement, NOT ONE DAMN INCH!!!)
-Ensure that they contain exactly what they claim.
-Ensure a minimum purity standard.

This is pretty damn basic.

I know right?

I agree that the label ought to be consistent with what is actually in the product; I think the purity standard you speak of rolls into the previous statement. As far as I know, there already are some regulations regarding what these companies can and cannot claim (i.e. they cannot claim to cure, treat, or prevent illnesses).

They largely get around that sort of thing by alluding to it helping with something. "Ancient Chinese herbalists used x to treat y." or "X may be useful in preventing Y."

In that case, people need to use the most powerful educational tool to ever exist in the history of mankind - that's likely on their cell phone - and do a little research on those claims before blindly buying it.

"Research" is an incredibly difficult thing, when marketers are allowed to say almost anything they want about a product.

The industry is full of "experts" linking to "research" and saying this and that. It's pretty much impossible for a layperson to sort through the noise and separate fact from marketing claims.

So... What separates you and your research from other people? Are they less capable than you've been? Perhaps they're incapable of using some common sense?

Oh come on. We both know that people have different strengths and weaknesses as well as varying levels of intelligence and logic. So yes, my ability to find and comprehend research is going to be much greater than many others. Just as my ability to create and understand art is much less than many others.

Rage_Phish

Knee-jerk reaction? My husband has Crohn's disease. If he does not take certain vitamins as supplements, it will exacerbate his illness. He has his blood and urine examined every three months by a *real* laboratory, recommended by his *licensed* physician and paid for through Humana, to ensure that he is maintaining his health. This is truth, but believe what you will. (I'm not a politician so I must be lying. *eye roll*) If the companies that put these out were defrauding him, it would be evident in his test results. And at that time, we would file suit against the company for fraud.

It's great that your husband can have this kind of certainty.

For everyone else, quarterly blood analysis should not be necessary. If a company says it's vitamin D in the bottle, I should be able to depend on it being vitamin D in the bottle and not just chalk pills. That's the point here.

LOL@ "chalk pills"

Strong retort.

Not intended to be a retort. I just thought that was hilarious to believe that they are selling chalk pills.

Yeah, no company would ever lie about what they're selling.

\

Not for long.

I love that you think any company that does anything bad would cease to exist. It's amusingly naive.

Then again, that's about what I'd expect from someone who is so unreasonably angry that the government won't let her smoke pot.

i have agreed with you so far though out this thread, but we should be mad the gov't wont let us smoke pot.

Carnivor0us

The bottom line is that the market is NOT taking care of these things. The market has largely NOT taken care of purity, content, efficacy, and safety. The market has NOT taken care of scientifically establishing efficacy. The market has NOT taken care of scientifically establishing side effects. The market has NOT taken care of misleading labeling.

These things are - right now - actual problems. People are spending billions of dollars a year on unregulated supplements being marketed to them for essentially specious purposes. The market has not fixed this.

I wouldn't either if people are happy to spend billions on my crap.

Exactly. People are so happy to lap this stuff up, there's no market pressure for any of it. The public clearly doesn't give a damn if the stuff actually works, as long as some "expert" goes on TV and tells them it does.

But if they're so happy with the arrangement, why take it away from them? Why do you want to make people unhappy, jonnythan? First you say you're smarter, THEN you wanna take away their fun! Sheesh!

jonnythan

i have agreed with you so far though out this thread, but we should be mad the gov't wont let us smoke pot.

I'm with you. I have no interest in it myself, but IMO it should be legal (as I stated earlier in this thread).

Carnivor0us

I'm rather highly educated. I have college-level education in multiple disciplines of science and research. I have a degree in a hard science (biology). I have professional experience with actual live clinical research. I am a graduate student in public health. I am, forgive me for my arrogance, rather more intelligent than the vast majority of Americans.

I have a rather higher ability to sort out "science" from "marketing" than most people, yes.

Education isn't intelligence, although I'm not questioning your IQ or anything.

That's why I listed intelligence and education separately. The line about intelligence wasn't a conclusion from the previous lines, though I see it can look that way.

Besides, my education, which is largely in science, public health, and research, is extremely relevant to my ability to make informed decisions for myself about supplements.

I'm glad you clarified that.

My own professional experience in pharmacy in addition to my education and research in geospatial systems allow me to waste time on the internet.

WendyTerry420

I am not saying that a company shouldnt be able to sell whatever herb/supplement they wish. Just that laws and regulations be in place that:

-Ensure they are not making false claims (Like Extenz, the male enhancement supplement, NOT ONE DAMN INCH!!!)
-Ensure that they contain exactly what they claim.
-Ensure a minimum purity standard.

This is pretty damn basic.

I know right?

I agree that the label ought to be consistent with what is actually in the product; I think the purity standard you speak of rolls into the previous statement. As far as I know, there already are some regulations regarding what these companies can and cannot claim (i.e. they cannot claim to cure, treat, or prevent illnesses).

They largely get around that sort of thing by alluding to it helping with something. "Ancient Chinese herbalists used x to treat y." or "X may be useful in preventing Y."

In that case, people need to use the most powerful educational tool to ever exist in the history of mankind - that's likely on their cell phone - and do a little research on those claims before blindly buying it.

"Research" is an incredibly difficult thing, when marketers are allowed to say almost anything they want about a product.

The industry is full of "experts" linking to "research" and saying this and that. It's pretty much impossible for a layperson to sort through the noise and separate fact from marketing claims.

So... What separates you and your research from other people? Are they less capable than you've been? Perhaps they're incapable of using some common sense?

Yes, he is quite certain that he smarter than everyone else.

WendyTerry420

oh god i just took a supplement, i think i'm going to die now

jonnythan

I am not saying that a company shouldnt be able to sell whatever herb/supplement they wish. Just that laws and regulations be in place that:

-Ensure they are not making false claims (Like Extenz, the male enhancement supplement, NOT ONE DAMN INCH!!!)
-Ensure that they contain exactly what they claim.
-Ensure a minimum purity standard.

This is pretty damn basic.

I know right?

I agree that the label ought to be consistent with what is actually in the product; I think the purity standard you speak of rolls into the previous statement. As far as I know, there already are some regulations regarding what these companies can and cannot claim (i.e. they cannot claim to cure, treat, or prevent illnesses).

They largely get around that sort of thing by alluding to it helping with something. "Ancient Chinese herbalists used x to treat y." or "X may be useful in preventing Y."

In that case, people need to use the most powerful educational tool to ever exist in the history of mankind - that's likely on their cell phone - and do a little research on those claims before blindly buying it.

"Research" is an incredibly difficult thing, when marketers are allowed to say almost anything they want about a product.

The industry is full of "experts" linking to "research" and saying this and that. It's pretty much impossible for a layperson to sort through the noise and separate fact from marketing claims.

So... What separates you and your research from other people? Are they less capable than you've been? Perhaps they're incapable of using some common sense?

Yes, he is quite certain that he smarter than everyone else.

Certainly not from everyone else. But I am smarter, and more educated in this field, than most people. My personal ability to make informed decisions about supplements is much higher than that of most people.

I was directly asked what made me better at these decisions than many others, and I answered.

auddii

So cheerios can't claim to regulate cholesterol (they would need an investigational new drug application and many clinical trials before claiming this). I'm curious now that they have declared obesity a disease if that means that drugs to help you lose weight are "treating" a disease. Any claims made about treating a disease are not allowed for supplements.

Except not. Cheerios is a food, and is this regulated. The claim that it can help lower cholesterol is an approved health claim based on (I believe) its fiber content.

Actually, the FDA just changed their regulations on that. Pretty much anything ingested can be considered a drug if you are making a claim that it can treat or improve a disease. They went so far as to say that if you are looking at medical factors before and after ingestion of a product, that makes it a drug. We just had a study come through our office looking at how mango fruit affects clinical outcomes of a disease. It had an IND. Funniest letter ever; it had "Drug Name: Mango Fruit" at the top.

Carnivor0us

I am not saying that a company shouldnt be able to sell whatever herb/supplement they wish. Just that laws and regulations be in place that:

-Ensure they are not making false claims (Like Extenz, the male enhancement supplement, NOT ONE DAMN INCH!!!)
-Ensure that they contain exactly what they claim.
-Ensure a minimum purity standard.

This is pretty damn basic.

I know right?

I agree that the label ought to be consistent with what is actually in the product; I think the purity standard you speak of rolls into the previous statement. As far as I know, there already are some regulations regarding what these companies can and cannot claim (i.e. they cannot claim to cure, treat, or prevent illnesses).

They largely get around that sort of thing by alluding to it helping with something. "Ancient Chinese herbalists used x to treat y." or "X may be useful in preventing Y."

In that case, people need to use the most powerful educational tool to ever exist in the history of mankind - that's likely on their cell phone - and do a little research on those claims before blindly buying it.

"Research" is an incredibly difficult thing, when marketers are allowed to say almost anything they want about a product.

The industry is full of "experts" linking to "research" and saying this and that. It's pretty much impossible for a layperson to sort through the noise and separate fact from marketing claims.

So... What separates you and your research from other people? Are they less capable than you've been? Perhaps they're incapable of using some common sense?

Yes, he is quite certain that he smarter than everyone else.

Presumably that's his picture in his avatar, so at least he's hot and has a cat.

QuietBloom

The bottom line is that the market is NOT taking care of these things. The market has largely NOT taken care of purity, content, efficacy, and safety. The market has NOT taken care of scientifically establishing efficacy. The market has NOT taken care of scientifically establishing side effects. The market has NOT taken care of misleading labeling.

These things are - right now - actual problems. People are spending billions of dollars a year on unregulated supplements being marketed to them for essentially specious purposes. The market has not fixed this.

I wouldn't either if people are happy to spend billions on my crap.

Exactly. People are so happy to lap this stuff up, there's no market pressure for any of it. The public clearly doesn't give a damn if the stuff actually works, as long as some "expert" goes on TV and tells them it does.

But if they're so happy with the arrangement, why take it away from them? Why do you want to make people unhappy, jonnythan? First you say you're smarter, THEN you wanna take away their fun! Sheesh!

That's the thing about scientists. We don't want to be told something works. We want to see the data. We want to know what people are putting into their bodies. And then we get called a bunch of uncaring so-and-so's by paranoid, knee jerking, fine upstanding, pot smoking citizens. *sniff*

RivenV

I'm rather highly educated. I have college-level education in multiple disciplines of science and research. I have a degree in a hard science (biology). I have professional experience with actual live clinical research. I am a graduate student in public health. I am, forgive me for my arrogance, rather more intelligent than the vast majority of Americans.

I have a rather higher ability to sort out "science" from "marketing" than most people, yes.

Education isn't intelligence, although I'm not questioning your IQ or anything.

That's why I listed intelligence and education separately. The line about intelligence wasn't a conclusion from the previous lines, though I see it can look that way.

Besides, my education, which is largely in science, public health, and research, is extremely relevant to my ability to make informed decisions for myself about supplements.

While it does sound like you're very well educated, intelligent, and well reasoned with most of your posts (not like I stalk you or anything), I have to think that most people given a small surplus of time and enough interest would come to the same conclusion without compulsion from an outside entity.

WendyTerry420

I'm rather highly educated. I have college-level education in multiple disciplines of science and research. I have a degree in a hard science (biology). I have professional experience with actual live clinical research. I am a graduate student in public health. I am, forgive me for my arrogance, rather more intelligent than the vast majority of Americans.

I have a rather higher ability to sort out "science" from "marketing" than most people, yes.

Exhibit A

Carnivor0us

The bottom line is that the market is NOT taking care of these things. The market has largely NOT taken care of purity, content, efficacy, and safety. The market has NOT taken care of scientifically establishing efficacy. The market has NOT taken care of scientifically establishing side effects. The market has NOT taken care of misleading labeling.

These things are - right now - actual problems. People are spending billions of dollars a year on unregulated supplements being marketed to them for essentially specious purposes. The market has not fixed this.

I wouldn't either if people are happy to spend billions on my crap.

Exactly. People are so happy to lap this stuff up, there's no market pressure for any of it. The public clearly doesn't give a damn if the stuff actually works, as long as some "expert" goes on TV and tells them it does.

But if they're so happy with the arrangement, why take it away from them? Why do you want to make people unhappy, jonnythan? First you say you're smarter, THEN you wanna take away their fun! Sheesh!

That's the thing about scientists. We don't want to be told something works. We want to see the data. We want to know what people are putting into their bodies. And then we get called a bunch of uncaring so-and-so's by paranoid, knee jerking, fine upstanding, pot smoking citizens. *sniff*

I wasn't aware scientists liked to tell people what to do.

jonnythan

I'm rather highly educated. I have college-level education in multiple disciplines of science and research. I have a degree in a hard science (biology). I have professional experience with actual live clinical research. I am a graduate student in public health. I am, forgive me for my arrogance, rather more intelligent than the vast majority of Americans.

I have a rather higher ability to sort out "science" from "marketing" than most people, yes.

Education isn't intelligence, although I'm not questioning your IQ or anything.

That's why I listed intelligence and education separately. The line about intelligence wasn't a conclusion from the previous lines, though I see it can look that way.

Besides, my education, which is largely in science, public health, and research, is extremely relevant to my ability to make informed decisions for myself about supplements.

While it does sound like you're very well educated, intelligent, and well reasoned with most of your posts (not like I stalk you or anything), I have to think that most people given a small surplus of time and enough interest would come to the same conclusion without compulsion from an outside entity.

I'm not sure I share your optimism, given the fact that millions of people have tons of time and still load up their carts with raspberry ketones.

QuietBloom

The bottom line is that the market is NOT taking care of these things. The market has largely NOT taken care of purity, content, efficacy, and safety. The market has NOT taken care of scientifically establishing efficacy. The market has NOT taken care of scientifically establishing side effects. The market has NOT taken care of misleading labeling.

These things are - right now - actual problems. People are spending billions of dollars a year on unregulated supplements being marketed to them for essentially specious purposes. The market has not fixed this.

I wouldn't either if people are happy to spend billions on my crap.

Exactly. People are so happy to lap this stuff up, there's no market pressure for any of it. The public clearly doesn't give a damn if the stuff actually works, as long as some "expert" goes on TV and tells them it does.

But if they're so happy with the arrangement, why take it away from them? Why do you want to make people unhappy, jonnythan? First you say you're smarter, THEN you wanna take away their fun! Sheesh!

That's the thing about scientists. We don't want to be told something works. We want to see the data. We want to know what people are putting into their bodies. And then we get called a bunch of uncaring so-and-so's by paranoid, knee jerking, fine upstanding, pot smoking citizens. *sniff*

I wasn't aware scientists liked to tell people what to do.

Where am I telling someone to do something?

stumblinthrulife

Let me help this thread out with a real example from my past experience.

Garlic supplements. Garlic supplements can thin your blood. This has the potential to be dangerous if you are taking Warfarin.

When I sold garlic supplements, I checked with my customers. I was not required to, however, and many other managers/staff did not. There is no requirement to post contra-indications on the bottle.

You can, today, go out and buy garlic oil supplements, take them on top of your Warfarin, and have no idea that there is a potential interaction.