Relatively light people trying to get leaner
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WOW -- that's a lot of information--- you are quite knowledgeable and verbose :bigsmile: -- but I think it's safe to say I need to up my weights with less reps....I'm on it!
Glad to hear!What about cardio and weight-lifting in the same day -- do you weight lift before or after?
That's a good question that I see tossed around daily. It plays right into what I was talking about previously to you regarding compromises. This is why marathon runners are hardly ever lean and muscular and lean and muscular folks are hardly ever running long distances consistently and aggressively.
Basically making a muscle grow requires specific changes in the cellular structure of the muscle cells - this is related to anaerobic (oxygen-free fuel) metabolism. Protein accumulates under these conditions, making the muscle bigger.
Cardio triggers muscle fibers to adapt for aerobic (oxygen-burning) metabolism and endurance.
Now, the clash comes in because these variables are mutually exclusive - they tend to cancel each other out. You can't have a muscle that's optimized for being large/anaerobic and to be energy-efficient and endurance-oriented.
The analogy I use is comparing a big SUV to a compact economy car. The SUV is big, powerful, and has horrible gas mileage. The economy car is small and not very powerful, but it'll run for days on a tank of gas.
Energy balance is a part of this equation, but there are definitely underlying and conflicting molecular-level adaptations at work and in direct competition.
When training for enhancing body composition (when you're already relatively lean and trying to get leaner), you need to aim towards the big inefficient muscle. Anaerobic optimization is what allows protein to accumulate, making the muscle bigger and stronger - at the cost of aerobic endurance. Aerobic-trained muscles are going to be much smaller (smaller = efficient) and full of the enzymes and cellular junk necessary for contracting over long periods of time.
I should add that this effect is mainly observed in athletes that are trying to do too much at once. I'm not talking about a handful of 30 minute cardio sessions here; you can out-eat that. This does become a concern if you're one of those doing 2-3 hours worth of cardio several times a week.
Quite often you'll see people suggesting to do strength training before cardio.
This ordering is in place because of fatigue elements. As a rule, lifting will usually impact cardio less than the opposite order.
However, if you're in good condition this may not always be the case. Likewise, it also depends on the kind of cardio work - sprinters will routinely do their acceleration and speed work before a lifting session.
In other words, recall the key principle of exercise: there's only guidelines, no absolutes. Do what order works for you.0 -
This is the mental state that I am in. At this point I'm not real sure that my goal weight is attainible (w/o losing a lot of muscle), but the mirror says there's some significant fat loss that needs to take place. I am also training for a Half Marathon..and I lift pretty heavy on my non-running days.
I've decided I'm going to weigh myself 2 more times before the event in October. But other than that I'm just going to stick the training plan and see what happens. After the marathon I plan on getting my BF% tested to get a better idea of where I stand, and adjust from there. And start planning some other bucket list items that will require extreme endurance.
Nice! Good luck with the iron man!
Personally, I don't ever weigh. I own a gym that has 3 scales in sight and I step on one of them maybe 5 times per year. I just don't care what I weigh. I care what I can do (big on mountaineering) and how I look. But I train for performance and how I look follows suit.
One of those items is to climb Long's Peak in RMNP. 17 hour Hike! I could probably do it now, but I live in Kansas and it takes a little planning.0 -
thanks for this. It is a good reminder.0
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One of those items is to climb Long's Peak in RMNP. 17 hour Hike! I could probably do it now, but I live in Kansas and it takes a little planning.
Awesome! We're planning on attempting the Presidential Traverse this winter up in the White Mountains of NH. We conquered it once, but it's definitely a brutal trip. Failed 3 other times due to weather and visibility/wind.1 -
thanks for this. It is a good reminder.
You're welcome.
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Take it from me - I went from weighing 105 to 109 now. This transformation took 4-5 months of HEAVY lifting.
I used to do endless cardio and low calorie eating thinking that is what made me "thin". Then I realized I don't want to be "thin", I want to be firm, muscular, athletic and in great shape. I have reduced my body fat approx. 2-3% during this process, yet I weigh more. I still fit into the clothes I did 4 pounds lighter. I look 10000x better. I have no - zero - cellulite on the back of my legs now. I went from being able to do 75 pounds on the leg press to 155 pounds now. My deadlift went from 20 pounds to 50 pounds now. My bicep curls went from 5 pounds each arm to 15 pounds now. I see actual muscle definition. I eat way more now too!
My friends, weight lifting made my body look SO much better. I do not look bulky or big, I look smaller, tighter and athletic. Give it a shot!9 -
this is ready a great post! thank you very much! I've enjoyed reading all the input. However, I'm not sure where I fit into this. I'm not exactly lean, but I look it, which may be a blessing in disguise.
But when I see people bigger than I am and more out of shape than I am(no offense meant to anyone), it really makes me upset.
It's technically not about looks, which I believe you are saying anyway, but if I am unable to run for more than 2 minutes or do cardio with the same intensity as they do, doesn't that make me worse of anyway?
I've tried the Cto5K program to aid my running, but it didn't work out very well.
And contrary to what kdiamond is saying (you look great btw), I notice that if I strenght train, I tend to look bulky.0 -
Take it from me - I went from weighing 105 to 109 now. This transformation took 4-5 months of HEAVY lifting.
I used to do endless cardio and low calorie eating thinking that is what made me "thin". Then I realized I don't want to be "thin", I want to be firm, muscular, athletic and in great shape. I have reduced my body fat approx. 2-3% during this process, yet I weigh more. I still fit into the clothes I did 4 pounds lighter. I look 10000x better. I have no - zero - cellulite on the back of my legs now. I went from being able to do 75 pounds on the leg press to 155 pounds now. My deadlift went from 20 pounds to 50 pounds now. My bicep curls went from 5 pounds each arm to 15 pounds now. I see actual muscle definition. I eat way more now too!
My friends, weight lifting made my body look SO much better. I do not look bulky or big, I look smaller, tighter and athletic. Give it a shot!
Thanks very much for the anecdote and congrats on "seeing the light"!1 -
this is ready a great post! thank you very much! I've enjoyed reading all the input. However, I'm not sure where I fit into this. I'm not exactly lean, but I look it, which may be a blessing in disguise.
May I ask you your stats? Age, sex, height and weight?It's technically not about looks, which I believe you are saying anyway, but if I am unable to run for more than 2 minutes or do cardio with the same intensity as they do, doesn't that make me worse of anyway?
I can't answer that question. It would make you less conditioned for that specific exercise they're doing better than you. But beyond that, worse is too general of a term.I've tried the Cto5K program to aid my running, but it didn't work out very well.
Why not? Were you consistent with it? What do you mean by "work out very well"?And contrary to what kdiamond is saying (you look great btw), I notice that if I strenght train, I tend to look bulky.
Take this for what it's worth, but I started training people in 2000. I've trained somewhere around double the number of women as men. And I've yet to meet a woman who would get bulky from weight lifting. Granted, bulky is a very general term that's individual to the eye of the beholder.
The only muscle bound women I've known used drugs.1 -
Sweet! Thanks so much for this info! This is exactly the type of info I've been searching for lately! \m/1
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more questions...
so, I eat healthy most days. A normal day is....Oatmeal/whole wheat english muffin with pb or hardboiled egg for b'fast-- almonds or fruit for snack -- sandwich or salad with fruit for lunch -- greek yogurt for snack -- grilled chicken for dinner/brown rice/ green beans. I am 41 :noway: 5'3" and 130 lbs (hoping to get back to 120). MFP says I should eat around 1250 calories plus exercise calories. How do you count weight lifting? Some days I can exercise 1000+ calories but don't feel like eating till the next day. Do I deprive myself? Very frustrated -- too much to take in -- there must be an easier way :bigsmile: .
Did I mention I'm an accountant -- and all this gray area does not work for me. I need someone to say -- do this....eat this....and you'll get the desired results. Not asking much....right?:blushing:0 -
Wow, tons of great posts and info here! I would count myself in this category; I'm about 7 pounds from my goal weight. That weight, however is just some mythical number that was my weight before and after both of my pregnancies. Being 41 now, the pounds are much harder to shed.
I really appreciated the info on women and water weight, etc. One morning I weighed myself at 165 and was very discouraged as that had me two pounds up from what I had been at my last weigh-in. The same afternoon I got back on (about 6 hours later) and was 162!! What the heck?? That taught me a lot and also reminded me to visit the scale much less frequently.
I'm definitely hung up on the number and need to shift my focus. Keep the great info coming; I'm taking it all in.... :bigsmile:0 -
more questions...
so, I eat healthy most days. A normal day is....Oatmeal/whole wheat english muffin with pb or hardboiled egg for b'fast-- almonds or fruit for snack -- sandwich or salad with fruit for lunch -- greek yogurt for snack -- grilled chicken for dinner/brown rice/ green beans. I am 41 :noway: 5'3" and 130 lbs (hoping to get back to 120). MFP says I should eat around 1250 calories plus exercise calories. How do you count weight lifting? Some days I can exercise 1000+ calories but don't feel like eating till the next day. Do I deprive myself? Very frustrated -- too much to take in -- there must be an easier way :bigsmile: .
Did I mention I'm an accountant -- and all this gray area does not work for me. I need someone to say -- do this....eat this....and you'll get the desired results. Not asking much....right?:blushing:
Haha, you're fun.
Unfortunately I'm not your guy. I don't give rigid guidelines to follow because in my experience.... it simply doesn't work well. People need to take the fundamentals and apply them in a customized way to themselves.
What are the fundamentals? Well to name a few....
1. Set calories according to your goal. A deficit for weight loss, equal for maintenance, and a surplus for weight gain
2. Set protein at approximately 1 gram per pound of goal body weight. There are 4 calories in each gram of protein.
3. Set fat at approximately 30% of total calories. There are 9 calories for each gram of fat.
4. Eat 4-6 servings of fibrous veggies per day. Calorie content of veggies varies depending on the type... but a ballpark might be 20-40 per serving.
5. Eat 2-4 servings of fruit per day. Like veggies, calorie content varies here. A ballpark might be 60 or so.
I don't use MFP for anything but the community and helping people. I'm not sure how all their calculators work. I can tell you this though... I'm not a fan of estimating calorie expenditure. It's something I've never done with my clients or myself. I take a much simpler route.
I pick a reasonable estimate of calorie maintenance assuming sane amounts of exercise. What's a sane amount of exercise? About an hour per day of moderate to above moderate activity. Weight lifting, cardio, etc. Maintenance works out to be roughly 14-16 calories per pound.
If you're very lean or very overweight... or if you feel you have a bit of a sluggish metabolism... you might need to adjust this starting point. In your case though, I'd go with 15 given your level of activity. Remember, this isn't a contract you're signing here so there's no need to make a big deal about it.
130 x 15 = 1950
From there, it's a matter of creating your deficit. I generally like a deficit of 30% or so. This would put you at about 1400 calories or so. If you were my client, that'd be your initial daily calorie target.
Then it'd be a matter of filling in those calories with the "right mixture" of nutrients.
On the protein front, 1 gram per pound of goal body weight would put you at 120 grams. 120 grams of protein equates to 480 calories, leaving you with 920 left to "fill."
Good sources of protein include chicken and turkey breast, fish, lean ground beef, lean cuts of steak, pork tenderloin, nuts, eggs, milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, protein powders, etc.
On the fat front, 30% of total calories comes to 420. Since there are 9 calories in each gram of fat, this would equate to 47 or so grams of fat. You'd be left with 500 calories left to fill.
Good sources of fat include fish oils, flax, fish, olive oil, avocados, nuts, natural peanut butter, etc
If we go with our ballparked numbers for veggies and fruits, we'd have 130ish calories coming from veggies and 180ish coming from fruit. We'd be left with 190 calories left to fill.
This final allotment is your freebie. Fill it with whatever you'd like.
Just remember this is a process. You don't get to sign a contract and expect things to work indefinitely. The process should look *something* like this:
1. Estimate total energy expenditure. (this is where I start with the 14-16 cals per pound)
2. Set your caloric intake at a level above or below the above estimation depending on whether you want to gain or lose weight, respectively.
3. Track your measurements, weight, body fat, pictures, etc every 2-4 weeks.
4. Based on the trend you’re seeing with your tracking, adjust your intake accordingly.
5. Rinse and repeat steps 2-4 until you a) reach your goal or b) your goals change.
You're an accountant, so you must like numbers. Therefore you must like this post. 7 -
well I'm 25, 5'4", 125 on a good day, and I'm female.
By "didn't work out very well" - I tried the Cto5k, and I was consistent, but I couldn't even get to step 2. I couldn't run for the 90 sec intervals, with the 60 sec break, I would feel like I couldn't catch my breath and toward the end I would just walk a little faster rather than walk.
I suppose you are right that bulky is a general term, but I noticed that I couldn't wear the shirts I could normally wear that were tight around my biceps. And when I wore sleeveless or short sleeved shirts, my arms looks out of proportion with my body.
I was doing a 8 weeks program at the time, so it worked out my upper and lower bodies on different days, with light weights.0 -
By "didn't work out very well" - I tried the Cto5k, and I was consistent, but I couldn't even get to step 2. I couldn't run for the 90 sec intervals, with the 60 sec break, I would feel like I couldn't catch my breath and toward the end I would just walk a little faster rather than walk.
That's the problem with prepackaged programs. They might be great for the majority. But there will always be some statistical outliers for whom they're either too aggressively or conservatively structured. There's really no reason to get discouraged. I'd develop some sort of balanced program that is in line with your current abilities/conditioning and work on gradually yet consistently building up from there.
That's the name of the game, really.I suppose you are right that bulky is a general term, but I noticed that I couldn't wear the shirts I could normally wear that were tight around my biceps. And when I wore sleeveless or short sleeved shirts, my arms looks out of proportion with my body.
I was doing a 8 weeks program at the time, so it worked out my upper and lower bodies on different days, with light weights.
Light weights generally aren't going to grow muscles in a guy who's eating enough to support muscle growth. A dieting female (who isn't hormonally dispositioned to gain lots of muscle due to hormone levels) is even less likely to grow appreciably on the muscle front. Hell, put her on a calorie surplus lifting light weights and it still remains the same.
You need to surpass a certain level of tension in the muscle with adequate volume to force it to grow. And that's probably a bunch of gibberish to you... but suffice it to say.... female, light weights, and calorie deficits don't mix together for growth.
Granted, you could have been off, calorically speaking and you could have been completely untrained before starting and these facts could change things.
But even still... if you primed your environment for muscle growth, I don't think you'd be upset with what's left after all the fat is gone. Really think about that. You might grow your upper arm, for instance, by a quarter of an inch via hypertrophy (muscle growth). And that might make your arm measure a quarter of an inch bigger, thus making your sleeves tighter. But what about when the fat is lost? Will you look better with that new found muscle or without it? That's up to the jury... but I'd put my money on the former.0 -
So even after I start building muscle and my sleeves get tighter, I will still lose fat and the sleeves will eventually fit?
I'm just trying to make sure I'm understanding.
If that is the case, I guess that is my course to failure, because I usually panic and go back to my elliptical because I definitely don't want to look bigger.0 -
LOVE THE POST!!!! I'm all about numbers. I'll be crunching and figuring all day now
thanks! I'm sure I have the exercise portion on track -- I am definitely addicted to the need to exercise. Even my kids love how happy mommy is after her long run :ohwell: Endorphins are my friend! :drinker:
I will work on the diet portion. I try to focus on protein but probably don't get as much as I need. I like your formula and will certainly give it a go. I have a race next month so my focus right now is fueling and getting ready for my race. Really want a PR. I know loosing 10 pounds would certainly help this short girl run faster -- so I definitely have the motivation -- just need the recipe for success!!! Thanks for all your help! I will certainly keep you posted. hoping the next body analysis shows some positive changes -- if not, I'm going to turn into a couch potato that eats bon-bons all day :noway:
You have been fabulous -- thanks again for all your responses.
Enjoy your day!
Julie0 -
So even after I start building muscle and my sleeves get tighter, I will still lose fat and the sleeves will eventually fit?
I'm just trying to make sure I'm understanding.
If that is the case, I guess that is my course to failure, because I usually panic and go back to my elliptical because I definitely don't want to look bigger.
Muscle building is a very intensive process, energetically speaking. Calories are energy. When you're dieting, by definition, you don't have adequate calories coming in the door to maintain what you have. Your body, "knowing this," isn't going to make matters worse by adding a lot of metabolically active tissue such as muscle.
An extreme example is an anorexic. Do you think he or she would get bulky lifting weights in the face of their starvation?
So where am I going with this?
If you think you got noticeably bigger muscles lifting weights while dieting, you either were fooling yourself, shrunk your shirt sleeves, weren't actually in a calorie deficit, or added a very slight amount of muscle due to the novelty of the stress (which can happen).0 -
Thanks so much for some great things to think about. I'm just starting out, and I'm determined to not think of this as a diet or even as "loosing weight". I'm trying to get in the mind frame that I am getting healthier, and that's going to take a while.
To that end, I appreciated the knowledge that even light weights will aide me in my quest. It will help me not rush for the most weight I can lift, but instead build toward a healthier me.
And just for the record, I'm not after skeletal, much preferred toned!0 -
LOVE THE POST!!!! I'm all about numbers. I'll be crunching and figuring all day now thanks! I'm sure I have the exercise portion on track -- I am definitely addicted to the need to exercise. Even my kids love how happy mommy is after her long run :ohwell: Endorphins are my friend! :drinker:
I will work on the diet portion. I try to focus on protein but probably don't get as much as I need. I like your formula and will certainly give it a go. I have a race next month so my focus right now is fueling and getting ready for my race. Really want a PR. I know loosing 10 pounds would certainly help this short girl run faster -- so I definitely have the motivation -- just need the recipe for success!!! Thanks for all your help! I will certainly keep you posted. hoping the next body analysis shows some positive changes -- if not, I'm going to turn into a couch potato that eats bon-bons all day :noway:
You have been fabulous -- thanks again for all your responses.
Enjoy your day!
Julie
Good luck Julie.
And if your next analysis doesn't go well, I think it's time to emphasize body composition over running performance more. But we'll cross that bridge if or when we have to.
Kick some *kitten*!0
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