Relatively light people trying to get leaner

strong_curves

This is my favorite thread on here. Ive read this quite a few times and it's helped me a lot. Why isnt this a stickie???

sureitstime

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I know I'll get some solid and reliable answers here. I am a 39 yrs, 4'11 woman. My highest weight has been 70kgs. I have been diagonised with hypertension in Jan and my doc thinks my weight is the main culprit here. Since Jan I have lost 5 kgs and see a lot of inch loss. But my doc is not happy with the rate of weight loss and delicately asked me if I want something to hasten my weight loss.
My questions to you Stroutman
1. If I start a lifting weights will it not slow down my weight loss.
2. Is it better for my overall health to first lose the weight and then start lifting.
Confused! Please help!

dmt4641

Thanks so much for this post! This is exactly where I have been for the past year or so. I am already relatively lean 33 yr old female 5'8 and 135. I have been heavy lifting for over a year but it is has pretty much always been at a deficit so I have not made much headway in the way of real gains in strength or mass. My "set point" seems to be 139-140. Every time I do a a very moderate cut and lose a couple pounds (250 calorie a day cut at 1950 calories, balanced carbs, protein, fat), I get ravenously hungry and gain it back. I do try and refeed once a week but probably don't do it right, not enough carbs. 135 is the lowest I have been able to get before starting to need to eat more and gain again. That is where I am at right now and last night was so starving I couldn't sleep, even though I ate 2500 and lots of carbs to try and refeed.

I guess my question for you Steve is whether I should just eat at maintenance and hope to recomp instead of continually trying to cut. I wanted to cut before the summer to look good in a swimsuit but I think what I may really need to do is get some more muscle. My arms and abs are tightening up on this cut, but my legs still need some more muscle to look better, my butt is just deflating. I plan on doing my first ever bulk in the Fall but don't really want to do it during swimsuit season if possible. So should I eat at maintenance hoping to at least get some gains and then bulk in the Fall? I don't really care about the number on the scale just how I look, but it is hard to get out of the diet mentality.

nikipb1

stroutman81 wrote: »

hmmmm.....something to think about. Right now I am training for a half-marathong and I usually have 2 short running days where I run 5-6 miles -- and one long run 10-15 miles. When I switch to marathon running my mileage will increase significantly. The other three days I spend 45min weight training/35 min spinning/ and 35 min swimming. Without that extra calorie burn I feel like I dont' get to eat enough:ohwell: Maybe I need to add more weight training :grumble: -- of course, I enjoy cardio so much more than weight training but have definitely seen results from it.

In very general terms, 2-3 30-60 minute weight training sessions is all that's necessary for muscle maintenance while dieting. Of course this assumes the sessions are structured properly which is beyond the scope of this thread.

And really... I can't say you're doing too much or too little. I only brought it up because more often than not, especially with women who are lean trying to get leaner, they tend to take the "beat my body into submission" route. They feel that depriving it of adequate nutrition and jacking up energy output, they're going to mold the body they're after.

Evolutionarily speaking, unfortunately, our bodies don't want to be lean. Especially female bodies. It opposes survival from long ago.

These same people come to me claiming they've been in a plateau for nearly a year, feel like crap, have nagging injuries, zero motivation, etc. Turns out that if they'd just sit down, stay out of the damn gym, and eat some food... things would be much better.

It turns out that we have a finite capacity to deal with stress. Stress comes in many forms - calorie deficits, exercise, work, family, etc. When we're dieting, this capacity is actually reduced, meaning our ability to handle stress diminishes. And this why the jackhammer approach mentioned above doesn't typically work.

This is why I always tell people that getting a "hot body" isn't the same as just going out and running yourself into the ground. You have to consider both diet *and* training needs, and adjust accordingly.

The kind of activity you do will depend on your goals, where you are at the moment, and your diet.

Heavy lifting's always going to be the core in my opinion. That's assuming you're interested in being lean.

It's always about compromises. For someone training for a marathon... the race is their priority so they have to eat and train accordingly. If we had an infinite ability to manage stress, we could focus on optimizing body composition while optimizing marathon performance. But that's not reality.

I'm speaking very generally here... not specifically about you. Just providing you some food for thought. And I use the term speaking very liberally here... it's more like rambling, which I apologize for, lol.

Body composition is going to have to take a back seat for all but the genetic elite while training for a big race. You could lower your calories to speed up fat losses, but you'd be compromising your ability to handle the training volume.

Your posts are amazing and really easy for someone who didn't no much about diets training and lifting, it's a lean body I want. What is ur advice on the amount of protein intake I should be having? And should I be lifting light with more reps or lifting heavy with little reps. Thanks x

cragslthorpe

Im five foot one weigh 8stone 6lbs and have been aiming for 8stone 3lba (the weight i was when i last fit into my skinny jeans!) i have recently begun swimming and every week my speed/stamina/Confidence has grown (swam 160m on first attempt) now swim 1600m and can for an hour comfortably! Im enjoying it as i dont get hot n bothered (doesnt affect my asthma) seems to give me more energy and most importantly keeps my depression away! Im not losing weight but dont know how to measure progress in terms of getting the lean toned body im after! (Thats my first question to you) also ive read on this thread that i need to do strength training or weight lifting to tone. How do i do this? What shud i lift? (Please bare in mind that i have weaker than normal neck muscles due to a severe whiplash injury some years ago- dr advised not to lift anything too heavyas neck will always be a weak spot for me!!!) thAnks linz x
(Email cragslthorpe@rgfl.org) not sure if u need this!!! Lx

stroutman81

ahoy_m8 wrote: »

Thanks for all the responses! I hear "things get wonky" for a lean person in a big deficit doing a lot of cardio. How much (and what kind of) cardio? And how big a deficit? And how lean before the wonkiness can happen?

Unanswerable as it's different for everyone. I've seen people straight up abuse their bodies and experience no ill consequences and I've seen people barely exceed the friendly nudge for losing fat and pay a hefty price. Mileage varies from person to person.

One of the best pieces I've seen written about this comes from Lyle McDonald:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/why-big-caloric-deficits-and-lots-of-activity-can-hurt-fat-loss.html/

stroutman81

slp51 wrote: »

This a great post! Thanks.

Can you define "wonky, please?" I'm 64 YO, 5'4", 120.5 lbs. My goal is first to tone and second to get to 117 lbs. that's still 7 lbs over what I weighed when I got married. It took me more than a month to see any movement on the scale or inches lost, until yesterday. I got on the scale and was delighted to see I was down 1.5 lbs. I strength train/ lift about 4 X week and do some form of cardio those days as well, plus another two days of cardio. The gym trainer at my gym said I didn't need so much cardio and to spend more time lifting. Would you agree? I have begun to see some definition in my arms and legs.

If what you're doing is working, and you feel it's sustainable, then don't try to fix it. There are many ways to skin this cat. I will say this, though. Just settle into a process based mentality. Don't worry so much about where your weight is or even how lean you are. Live day to day based on habits that align with the outcome you desire. Your body will follow suit. Form follows function.

stroutman81

andylllI wrote: »

I am back primarily to thank stroutman for his advice. I've read and re-read training for the new albinism and I've allowed my thinking and focus to give up on physique goals in favour of performance. I unfollowed all the fitspo accounts I would look at when sitting around hungry (hangry) at work and have followed a bunch of people going out and doing amazing adventures as motivation. I've put the scale away. I still track intake but more so that I can fuel properly. My progress reports on mfp has changed from weight to measurement and weightlifting PRs and resting HR and I'm focused on time spent in different training modalities. And I am so much happier.

That's awesome! Good for you!

stroutman81

strong_curves wrote: »

This is my favorite thread on here. Ive read this quite a few times and it's helped me a lot. Why isnt this a stickie???

Do they even do stickies around here. If so, I don't get any love because I'm not part of the "in crowd" here. Which is fine by me!

stroutman81

sureitstime wrote: »

Long time lurker, first time poster here. I know I'll get some solid and reliable answers here. I am a 39 yrs, 4'11 woman. My highest weight has been 70kgs. I have been diagonised with hypertension in Jan and my doc thinks my weight is the main culprit here. Since Jan I have lost 5 kgs and see a lot of inch loss. But my doc is not happy with the rate of weight loss and delicately asked me if I want something to hasten my weight loss.
My questions to you Stroutman
1. If I start a lifting weights will it not slow down my weight loss.
2. Is it better for my overall health to first lose the weight and then start lifting.
Confused! Please help!

Yeah, I'm ashamed by how much time has passed since I visited this thread. Between a growing business, major home renovations, and raising 3 little girls... MFP slipped beyond my radar. Sorry about that.

Firstly, congrats on the loss and more so for getting a handle on your habits.

I find it a bit frustrating that the doc is fretting about your rate of weight loss. While it's not the stock standard 1 lb per week that everyone throws around... it's a perfectly fine rate by my standards. Plus, it's one that you can likely stick with. It's not pushing you too far out of your comfort zone. Some time has passed since you posted this but I sincerely hope you kept doing your thing. This isn't a race. It's a personal journey of incremental change over time.

Granted, maybe your medical condition warrants some faster course of action, and if that's the case, obviously he/she knows best. I'm no doctor. That said, I've dealt with many clients who experienced doctors telling them whacky stuff when it comes to weight loss for no good medical reason except for "losing weight would be good for your health." And when that's the reason, which is perfectly fine, I'm of the opinion that you customize an approach that fits the person rather than cramming some stock standard rate of weight loss expectation that may or may not apply to the individual in question.

Delaying lifting isn't necessary. Can it slow results? Sure, assuming we're relying solely on the scale to measure results. We'd be misguided in doing so though. Adding lifting into the mix might cause some water retention due to the novelty of the stress. But that's temporary. It might also add a little muscle. But that's awesome. For physique, for health, for functionality, etc.

Progress comes in many shades and if I were you'd I'd be worrying more about how you look and feel than what the random number generator tells you on any given day!

stroutman81

dmt4641 wrote: »

Thanks so much for this post! This is exactly where I have been for the past year or so. I am already relatively lean 33 yr old female 5'8 and 135. I have been heavy lifting for over a year but it is has pretty much always been at a deficit so I have not made much headway in the way of real gains in strength or mass. My "set point" seems to be 139-140. Every time I do a a very moderate cut and lose a couple pounds (250 calorie a day cut at 1950 calories, balanced carbs, protein, fat), I get ravenously hungry and gain it back. I do try and refeed once a week but probably don't do it right, not enough carbs. 135 is the lowest I have been able to get before starting to need to eat more and gain again. That is where I am at right now and last night was so starving I couldn't sleep, even though I ate 2500 and lots of carbs to try and refeed.

I guess my question for you Steve is whether I should just eat at maintenance and hope to recomp instead of continually trying to cut. I wanted to cut before the summer to look good in a swimsuit but I think what I may really need to do is get some more muscle. My arms and abs are tightening up on this cut, but my legs still need some more muscle to look better, my butt is just deflating. I plan on doing my first ever bulk in the Fall but don't really want to do it during swimsuit season if possible. So should I eat at maintenance hoping to at least get some gains and then bulk in the Fall? I don't really care about the number on the scale just how I look, but it is hard to get out of the diet mentality.

I say to you what I said to the poster above... sorry for the delay! Anything change since posting this?

The first thought that pops into my head is how much have you experimented with things like protein dosage, meal frequency, mental accounting to see why/when you're hungry, etc? I mean, hunger is part of fat loss... especially as you lean out. But it should be manageable. So do you simply cut calories using the same approach each time and hope for the best or have you experimented with these different things?

healthkickkath1

Very informative thread stroutman , Thankyou for your perspective, very interesting

divvyh

I've got a question: What do you consider light weights? I'm up to 8-15 lbs. hand weights, as soon as I can move up, I intend to, but am I still in the "light weight" range. I'm sure it's different for everyone, but I'm 5'8" and 157 lbs. I've never had an athletic or muscular build.

strong_curves

My favorite thread

stroutman81

nikipb1 wrote: »

stroutman81 wrote: »

hmmmm.....something to think about. Right now I am training for a half-marathong and I usually have 2 short running days where I run 5-6 miles -- and one long run 10-15 miles. When I switch to marathon running my mileage will increase significantly. The other three days I spend 45min weight training/35 min spinning/ and 35 min swimming. Without that extra calorie burn I feel like I dont' get to eat enough:ohwell: Maybe I need to add more weight training :grumble: -- of course, I enjoy cardio so much more than weight training but have definitely seen results from it.

In very general terms, 2-3 30-60 minute weight training sessions is all that's necessary for muscle maintenance while dieting. Of course this assumes the sessions are structured properly which is beyond the scope of this thread.

And really... I can't say you're doing too much or too little. I only brought it up because more often than not, especially with women who are lean trying to get leaner, they tend to take the "beat my body into submission" route. They feel that depriving it of adequate nutrition and jacking up energy output, they're going to mold the body they're after.

Evolutionarily speaking, unfortunately, our bodies don't want to be lean. Especially female bodies. It opposes survival from long ago.

These same people come to me claiming they've been in a plateau for nearly a year, feel like crap, have nagging injuries, zero motivation, etc. Turns out that if they'd just sit down, stay out of the damn gym, and eat some food... things would be much better.

It turns out that we have a finite capacity to deal with stress. Stress comes in many forms - calorie deficits, exercise, work, family, etc. When we're dieting, this capacity is actually reduced, meaning our ability to handle stress diminishes. And this why the jackhammer approach mentioned above doesn't typically work.

This is why I always tell people that getting a "hot body" isn't the same as just going out and running yourself into the ground. You have to consider both diet *and* training needs, and adjust accordingly.

The kind of activity you do will depend on your goals, where you are at the moment, and your diet.

Heavy lifting's always going to be the core in my opinion. That's assuming you're interested in being lean.

It's always about compromises. For someone training for a marathon... the race is their priority so they have to eat and train accordingly. If we had an infinite ability to manage stress, we could focus on optimizing body composition while optimizing marathon performance. But that's not reality.

I'm speaking very generally here... not specifically about you. Just providing you some food for thought. And I use the term speaking very liberally here... it's more like rambling, which I apologize for, lol.

Body composition is going to have to take a back seat for all but the genetic elite while training for a big race. You could lower your calories to speed up fat losses, but you'd be compromising your ability to handle the training volume.

Your posts are amazing and really easy for someone who didn't no much about diets training and lifting, it's a lean body I want. What is ur advice on the amount of protein intake I should be having? And should I be lifting light with more reps or lifting heavy with little reps. Thanks x

Thanks! I'm glad the way I frame things resonates with you.

Protein... I'd say an ideal amount would be .75-1 gram per pound. If you're carrying a lot of fat... then make it per pound of goal body weight, but if you're in this thread, I doubt that's the case. Oh, and if you're really far below that level now, don't freak out and think you need to jump up there immediately. Just start to incrementally shift up each week or whatever at a pace you're comfortable with.

Light weights/more reps vs. heavy weights/little reps... why does it have to be either or? I like both when it comes to physique development. I typically like to structure programs so that there's a core of heavy work... think 4-10 reps per set and some accessory stuff that's in the 10-20 reps per set range.

stroutman81

cragslthorpe wrote: »

Im five foot one weigh 8stone 6lbs and have been aiming for 8stone 3lba (the weight i was when i last fit into my skinny jeans!) i have recently begun swimming and every week my speed/stamina/Confidence has grown (swam 160m on first attempt) now swim 1600m and can for an hour comfortably! Im enjoying it as i dont get hot n bothered (doesnt affect my asthma) seems to give me more energy and most importantly keeps my depression away! Im not losing weight but dont know how to measure progress in terms of getting the lean toned body im after! (Thats my first question to you) also ive read on this thread that i need to do strength training or weight lifting to tone. How do i do this? What shud i lift? (Please bare in mind that i have weaker than normal neck muscles due to a severe whiplash injury some years ago- dr advised not to lift anything too heavyas neck will always be a weak spot for me!!!) thAnks linz x
(Email cragslthorpe@rgfl.org) not sure if u need this!!! Lx

I'm glad you found an activity that you enjoy that also burns some calories and helps with depression. Sounds like it's a perfect fit for you!

And if you're not losing weight when losing weight is the goal... that simply means you need more deficit. You either need more expenditure, less food, or some combo of the two. Just make sure you're smart about it. With my clients, by and large, I have them eat as much food as possible while still allowing for a reasonable rate of weight loss over time.

This means we set cals high at first and then ease our way down based on how that body's responding.

As for your questions pertaining to how to lift weights... that's beyond the scope of this thread. I make my living managing the programming of my clients so I can't really do customized programming here on the forum. That said, I've written extensively about programming here:

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/724405/resistance-training-tidbits

I wrote that years ago at this point so I might quibble over a few of the bits nowadays... but by and large it'll give you a better understanding.

I also wrote about it here:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/stroutman81/view/resistance-training-foundation-19725

And here's an every more straight to the point sample I threw together... keeping in mind this is just general:

http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/373801/two-day-full-body-strength-training-routine#latest

As for your neck issue... I'd be listening to the doc about what you can and can't do before you go listening to a trainer. If you were working with me, for example, I'd want to see a list of doctor specified contraindications.

stroutman81

divvyh wrote: »

I've got a question: What do you consider light weights? I'm up to 8-15 lbs. hand weights, as soon as I can move up, I intend to, but am I still in the "light weight" range. I'm sure it's different for everyone, but I'm 5'8" and 157 lbs. I've never had an athletic or muscular build.

You can't look at specific loads and gauge whether they are light or heavy. It's entirely dependent on context. And the context in question here is the individual. 8-15 lbs for me on any exercise is going to be ridiculously light. 8-15 lbs for someone who has never touched a weight before can offer a stimulating load for certain exercises.

But even for a novice, ideally you're not losing the same load for ALL exercises. You should be able to lift substantially heavier loads in, say, squats then you can in, say, curls.

You want to tailor the load to each specific movement so that you're challenging the working muscles. How heavy does the load have to be? That's tough to answer, but I'd argue that they should be heavy enough so that by the end of each set you're a rep or so shy of technical failure.

Technical failure is simply that point in a set where your form breaks down. Meaning, you can keep performing reps with bad failure and eventually hit true failure.

You want to stop close to technical failure.

andylllI

Stroutman. I went up a mountain today and thought of you. I clearly need more aerobic training but overall I was pretty happy with that output after only "gym" training.

stroutman81

andylllI wrote: »

Stroutman. I went up a mountain today and thought of you. I clearly need more aerobic training but overall I was pretty happy with that output after only "gym" training.

Awesome! It's been too dang long since I've been on a mountain. I hiked Mt. Marcy up in the Adirondacks in NY earlier this year. It's not a very high mountain but it was a pretty brutal trek since the trail is mostly rock and they were ice coated.

But such an awesome feeling to go up, hopefully catch an epic view (we did not), and get back down with a used body and awesome memories.

Plus, going up mountains is meditative. At least for me.

andylllI

Meditative...yep. And also because your world becomes smaller and quieter when climbing. Decisions are bounded and immediate...how do we navigate this glacier? How do we descend thus rock wall? Do we solo short rope or pitch this? And that's relaxing.