Does quality of food matter if you remain within calories?

Sabine_Stroehm

Um, wow...

I mean healthier as in not using all your calories on fast food or sugar foods. Not healthy as in only shop at Whole Foods or eat from a set list of foods... I am a believer in 80/20. I don't think completely depriving yourself is a good idea because it makes a lot of people want what they cut out that much more.

No, I cannot "see into the future" (obviously...) but I have heard from plenty of people who wish they'd eaten less fast food, pizza, chips, soda, etc. when they were younger. I know people who have died from heart attacks and type 2 diabetes and they did not have the best eating habits. Something that could have been changed when they were younger came back to haunt them years later.

fwiw, I'm soon to be 50. I started eating MUCH healthier about 12-13 years ago. While I'm in good shape and at a good weight, I wish I'd started focusing on the healthfulness of my diet long before I did.

susanrechter

if i eat over 1500 cals a day, I gain weight. Older people, self included, have slow metabolism and cannot handle alot of food. It plays havoc on my body. Up til around 43 ish, I could eat a pound of candy, ice cream, steaks and not gain weight but once menopause came a-courtin, all bets were off. It brought a whole new set of standards. I always thought it was BS when people talked about how menopause changes ones life. Hello, it's true.
But....given discipline, I can lose weight and be healthier than ever if I work hard. Its a job and the payoff is spectacular!

KseRz

Um, wow...

I mean healthier as in not using all your calories on fast food or sugar foods. Not healthy as in only shop at Whole Foods or eat from a set list of foods... I am a believer in 80/20. I don't think completely depriving yourself is a good idea because it makes a lot of people want what they cut out that much more.

No, I cannot "see into the future" (obviously...) but I have heard from plenty of people who wish they'd eaten less fast food, pizza, chips, soda, etc. when they were younger. I know people who have died from heart attacks and type 2 diabetes and they did not have the best eating habits. Something that could have been changed when they were younger came back to haunt them years later.

Have you spoke to the "plenty of people" that don't mind that they ate fast food pizza, chips, burgers, didn't die of a heart attack or get diabetes? What did they have to say?

I consider pizza a "healthy food". Made with dough (flour,sugar,salt,yeast), tomato sauce, olive oil, & mozzarella cheese. Pretty great so far. Hmmm, what unhealthy toppings are there? Mushrooms? Onions? Olives? Chicken? Bacon?

Well this post just backfired.....now I really need to have some pizza.

But seriously its not the pizza making me fat. Its the 4 bowls of ice cream I eat after that.

paperpudding

Meh, I'm over 50 and I dont regret any of the pizza, burgers, chips etc I have eaten in the last half century.

and I am not diabetic nor have heart disease.

Sabine_Stroehm

Meh, I'm over 50 and I dont regret any of the pizza, burgers, chips etc I have eaten in the last half century.

and I am not diabetic nor have heart disease.

I don't "regret" any yummy food I've eaten, just wish I'd known how to build my diet earlier.

I also don't have diabetes nor heart disease.

KseRz

if i eat over 1500 cals a day, I gain weight. Older people, self included, have slow metabolism and cannot handle alot of food. It plays havoc on my body. Up til around 43 ish, I could eat a pound of candy, ice cream, steaks and not gain weight but once menopause came a-courtin, all bets were off. It brought a whole new set of standards. I always thought it was BS when people talked about how menopause changes ones life. Hello, it's true.
But....given discipline, I can lose weight and be healthier than ever if I work hard. Its a job and the payoff is spectacular!

Not sure what this is in response to, I agree this is true. Age is a strong factor when it comes to metabolism and how our bodies breakdown food and use it for energy and repair There is one calendar that I was using to see what my maximum weight could/should be at different goal BF percentages. (Scoobys Muscle Gain Calulator - http://scoobysworkshop.com/muscle-gain-calculator/) When I changed 1 data point (age range) it toggled between 1.7lbs and 7.7lbs per year. 1.7 for 30-40yrs old and 7.7 for 16-20 yrs old. The rest of the options did raise or lower it as well, but only 1 or 2 lbs of muscle, not 6.

Sarauk2sf

if i eat over 1500 cals a day, I gain weight. Older people, self included, have slow metabolism and cannot handle alot of food. It plays havoc on my body. Up til around 43 ish, I could eat a pound of candy, ice cream, steaks and not gain weight but once menopause came a-courtin, all bets were off. It brought a whole new set of standards. I always thought it was BS when people talked about how menopause changes ones life. Hello, it's true.
But....given discipline, I can lose weight and be healthier than ever if I work hard. Its a job and the payoff is spectacular!

Often post menopausal women can do better on a slightly higher fat and lower carb diet. Just something to consider.

mrbyte

It matters totally if you want to maintain a lean healthy look. You can't build muscles just eating potato chips.

Really? Is that so? My diet is far from "healthy". I eat lots of ice cream, cookies, pizza, candy etc...
<---- Do I have a lean healthy look? What do you think?

Also, who said anything about eating nothing but potato chips?

If you think those foods enhance your physique your delusional. If you replaced those calories with wholesome foods, you'd be in better shape. You are young and you are able to fit those calories in your budget but if you actually were trying to push the limits in your physique, those things are the first to go. Id' rather eat my chicken than ice cream if I'm trying to build some actual muscle. I don't have room in my budget for ice cream and cookies when I eat 300g of protein a day(most of it in meats/fishes)

Okay..lets change my example to eating icecream, cookies, candy, etc. You still won't build off those junk foods. So by logic how can those foods help you other than deliver calories that won't be used for LBM?

I'm 49 btw and that is a recent pic of me so it's not like I'm just spouting nonsense. At 33 you don't even have to watch what you eat. At 33 I ate 8 mcdonald cheeseburgers for lunch and milkshakes because my metabolism could accomodate it. I can't do that at 49. It becomes more of what is good for bloodwork as you get older and candies and cookies do not help make a good blood panel. Why abuse your youth when you can eat clean earlier and go into your older years that much more ahead of the pack.

Sarauk2sf

It matters totally if you want to maintain a lean healthy look. You can't build muscles just eating potato chips.

Really? Is that so? My diet is far from "healthy". I eat lots of ice cream, cookies, pizza, candy etc...
<---- Do I have a lean healthy look? What do you think?

Also, who said anything about eating nothing but potato chips?

If you think those foods enhance your physique your delusional. If you replaced those calories with wholesome foods, you'd be in better shape. You are young and you are able to fit those calories in your budget but if you actually were trying to push the limits in your physique, those things are the first to go. Id' rather eat my chicken than ice cream if I'm trying to build some actual muscle. I don't have room in my budget for ice cream and cookies when I eat 300g of protein a day(most of it in meats/fishes)

Okay..lets change my example to eating icecream, cookies, candy, etc. You still won't build off those junk foods. So by logic how can those foods help you other than deliver calories that won't be used for LBM?

I'm 49 btw and that is a recent pic of me so it's not like I'm just spouting nonsense. At 33 you don't even have to watch what you eat. At 33 I ate 8 mcdonald cheeseburgers for lunch and milkshakes because my metabolism could accomodate it. I can't do that at 49. It becomes more of what is good for bloodwork as you get older and candies and cookies do not help make a good blood panel. Why abuse your youth when you can eat clean earlier and go into your older years that much more ahead of the pack.

300g of protein a day? Why that much?

michikade

If you want to get down to the basest level, you can lose weight eating nothing but cake if you're still in a calorie deficit, but unless that cake has a crap-load of added nutrients you'll be skinny fat and way unhealthy.

Having sweets or junkie food every now and then is no big deal so long as you're mindful of the amount of intake and otherwise are consuming nutrient dense foods. It's a balance that to some people comes naturally but others have to learn.

michikade

If you want to get down to the basest level, you can lose weight eating nothing but cake if you're still in a calorie deficit, but unless that cake has a crap-load of added nutrients you'll be skinny fat and way unhealthy.

Having sweets or junkie food every now and then is no big deal so long as you're mindful of the amount of intake and otherwise are consuming nutrient dense foods. It's a balance that to some people comes naturally but others have to learn.

No one is advocating eating nothing but cake.
Every now and then? As in a little everyday?

I eat a little more in the IIFYM idea, so sure, I don't see why someone couldn't eat cookies or cake or whatever so long as they're mindful of it, have space for it in their intake for the day, and have enough self control to not overindulge. I have dark chocolate hershey kisses several times a week and don't feel the slightest bit guilty about it.

My original point was going back to the original question from the OP, but the point stands. You can lose weight eating nothing but sweets but it won't fuel your body as efficiently as nutrient rich foods, but I'm definitely not anti-sweets, they're just a sometimes food (or a "I've made allowances for this food and otherwise am eating the nutrients I need" food).

mrbyte

I eat 260 to 300g of protein a day or else my fat macros go up. My carbs are at 20% so I have to keep the rest manageable. I eat 3300 to 3900 calories a day. Am I delusional that I'm wasting protein at 300g a day? My LBM is about 180 pounds. 1.5 x 180 is 270g. I'm not that much over. I've cut 2% of bf a month doing what I'm doing and I have more energy and motivation than I have ever had in my life. My lifts are all approaching PRs in the last 5 years at weights 30 pounds less than I was when I was stronger. The key is that I am eating whole foods and good carbs where before I had junk food in my diet. Every 10 days I'll binge and eat what I want in mass if I so choose. I typically double my carb budget on a cheat. Doesn't hurt me since I'm on point 9 out of 10 days.

What I'm saying is that yes, if it's in your budget, you can eat what you want. I agree. But if you are pushing the limits, that junk food isn't going to help anything unless it's carb loading and holding you back from your potential. Sorry it's just how I feel. Supermarkets are full of food that will keep you from your goals. Food is a double edged sword. It can be used to do incredible things but if used wrong it will mess you over. This is not about eating a certain way and then going back to old habits. That is just eating one way to get thin and then eating another way to get fat. If you want to stay thin you have to eat to stay thin which means lifestyle change permanently.

mrbyte

I eat 260 to 300g of protein a day or else my fat macros go up. My carbs are at 20% so I have to keep the rest manageable. I eat 3300 to 3900 calories a day. Am I delusional that I'm wasting protein at 300g a day? My LBM is about 180 pounds. 1.5 x 180 is 270g. I'm not that much over. I've cut 2% of bf a month doing what I'm doing and I have more energy and motivation than I have ever had in my life. My lifts are all approaching PRs in the last 5 years at weights 30 pounds less than I was when I was stronger. The key is that I am eating whole foods and good carbs where before I had junk food in my diet. Every 10 days I'll binge and eat what I want in mass if I so choose. I typically double my carb budget on a cheat. Doesn't hurt me since I'm on point 9 out of 10 days.

What I'm saying is that yes, if it's in your budget, you can eat what you want. I agree. But if you are pushing the limits, that junk food isn't going to help anything unless it's carb loading and holding you back from your potential. Sorry it's just how I feel. Supermarkets are full of food that will keep you from your goals. Food is a double edged sword. It can be used to do incredible things but if used wrong it will mess you over. This is not about eating a certain way and then going back to old habits. That is just eating one way to get thin and then eating another way to get fat. If you want to stay thin you have to eat to stay thin which means lifestyle change permanently.

Anything we can read where it states someone should be eating 1.5g per lb of lbm and how going 1.5 is somehow more beneficial instead of .8 or 1g?
You are ignoring CNS adaptation.
You lifts have gone up and so have mine so I'm not seeing how that proves anything.

Lifters typically eat 1.5x their LBM. Maybe you don't agree but it's not uncommon. I've seen people eating 2x I think that is overkill. Whether it helps or not is debatable. It's what my macros call for and I'm not going to fill it with carbs. I don't understand what you mean by adaptation. I've been lifting for last 8 years. My CNS has adapted. I was strong at 230 and weak at 200. Now my lean mass has gone up while I have lost weight and now I'm at strength levels of where I was at 230.

My lifts have gone up while I have lost weight which is something I have rarely achieved in the past. Difference is my diet is comprised of whole foods and proteins and carbs from vegetables and brown rice. Where as before, I'd have pizza, ice cream and stuff and the result was a much less defined physique of which i thought was good enough.

Why are we even debating over nonsense of .8g or 1g or 1.5g? Going over isn't going to hurt and if i have to overindulge in any of the macros it will be protein, not fat or carbs. It's not a waste of a calorie. The body still uses it.

The whole point of the orginal thread was opinion of quality food. Yes it matters if you are going to maximize LBM. Not so much if you don't care about LBM. Let's not argue about my diet. My diet works for me. Your diet works for you. Not all diets are cut from the same cloth. I'm 17 years older than you.

Sarauk2sf

I eat 260 to 300g of protein a day or else my fat macros go up. My carbs are at 20% so I have to keep the rest manageable. I eat 3300 to 3900 calories a day. Am I delusional that I'm wasting protein at 300g a day? My LBM is about 180 pounds. 1.5 x 180 is 270g. I'm not that much over. I've cut 2% of bf a month doing what I'm doing and I have more energy and motivation than I have ever had in my life. My lifts are all approaching PRs in the last 5 years at weights 30 pounds less than I was when I was stronger. The key is that I am eating whole foods and good carbs where before I had junk food in my diet. Every 10 days I'll binge and eat what I want in mass if I so choose. I typically double my carb budget on a cheat. Doesn't hurt me since I'm on point 9 out of 10 days.

What I'm saying is that yes, if it's in your budget, you can eat what you want. I agree. But if you are pushing the limits, that junk food isn't going to help anything unless it's carb loading and holding you back from your potential. Sorry it's just how I feel. Supermarkets are full of food that will keep you from your goals. Food is a double edged sword. It can be used to do incredible things but if used wrong it will mess you over. This is not about eating a certain way and then going back to old habits. That is just eating one way to get thin and then eating another way to get fat. If you want to stay thin you have to eat to stay thin which means lifestyle change permanently.

There is quite a bit of individuality to how people react to macro mix re energy, satiation etc. However, I have never seen anything to support needing protein that high for 'optimal' MPS. Personally, I would rather more in carbs for a possibly better MPS.

I am not sure how 'junk' food does not help. It is energy. As long as you hit your micros - the extras are energy and it then, from a micro perspective, comes down to what you feel better with both from a preference, adherence and energy.

I know a lot of competitive bb'ers - they allow for what many consider 'junk' - some do this even into the 'dark' stages of the final weeks of prep, depending on their carb intake.

ETA: to be clear, I am not knocking your diet - but pointing out that your diet and what works for you, may not be the best for others and that not having extra carbs, especially 'junk' carbs, is not necessarily making your diet more optimal than someone that does not avoid them.

mrbyte

1.5g per pound of lean bodymass is very common in the lifting world. I'm not going to try and validate it. I've done the high junk carb macros and I sit around 15 to 16% bf when I do that. I am doing my diet and I peel off 2% of bf a month with more energy than I've ever had once I've adapted to this. I'm not advocating my diet to anyone. I never said anything about anyone doing my diet. I know it's extreme. So people, don't do my diet. I'm not advocating it. I think people are intelligent and they can see the results of people and their diets. They can come to their own conclusions.

What you can't see in my pictures is my extreme vascularity in my arms/forearms. Trainers/dieticians at my gym do say 20% is lower than most of their clients but then they say they can't argue with my results and tell me to continue to do what I do.

Again, the question was does quality of food matter. I say yes it does if you are trying to maintain a particular look. I'd rather diet down to a muscular fit body than diet down to a scrawny body. I've had both scrawny and fit. I prefer fit.

And with respect to carbs. I'd rather have carbs from healthy foods rather than junk carbs that wreak havoc with insulin levels. The only time I would do a junk carb is post workout with a ton of protein to create the insulin for protein absorbtion and uptake. Or a quick carb load to make the muscle fuller and more vascular, but that is a temporary. Otherwise, I stick with steel cut oats and brown rice and vegatables for source of carbs.

I do take a cheat day every 10 days and eat junk carbs if I so choose but I find my cravings for these types of food diminishing as I get my bf lower. I have eaten 600 carbs and 5900 calories on a cheat day two months ago. Now my cheats are typically 275 carbs and around 4500 cals.

If you eat junk food then it's taking up budget that a clean whole food could take in it's place. A clean whole food on any given day is better than junk. So why hold yourself back? Assuming you are pushing yourself to your limits in the gym. Any impressive physique you see will tell you that protein should be eaten through whole foods and not protein powders. They eat whole foods and a most of their protein through real meats not powders. There isn't any special powder to help you reach those goals. Real food is the secret.

Anyway, thanks for reading. I think I'm done with suggesting real food is better than junk food.

Sarauk2sf

1.5g per pound of lean bodymass is very common in the lifting world. I'm not going to try and validate it. I've done the high junk carb macros and I sit around 15 to 16% bf when I do that. I am doing my diet and I peel off 2% of bf a month with more energy than I've ever had once I've adapted to this. I'm not advocating my diet to anyone. I never said anything about anyone doing my diet. I know it's extreme. So people, don't do my diet. I'm not advocating it. I think people are intelligent and they can see the results of people and their diets. They can come to their own conclusions.

What you can't see in my pictures is my extreme vascularity in my arms/forearms. Trainers/dieticians at my gym do say 20% is lower than most of their clients but then they say they can't argue with my results and tell me to continue to do what I do.

Again, the question was does quality of food matter. I say yes it does if you are trying to maintain a particular look. I'd rather diet down to a muscular fit body than diet down to a scrawny body. I've had both scrawny and fit. I prefer fit.

And with respect to carbs. I'd rather have carbs from healthy foods rather than junk carbs that wreak havoc with insulin levels. The only time I would do a junk carb is post workout with a ton of protein to create the insulin for protein absorbtion and uptake. Or a quick carb load to make the muscle fuller and more vascular, but that is a temporary. Otherwise, I stick with steel cut oats and brown rice and vegatables for source of carbs.

I do take a cheat day every 10 days and eat junk carbs if I so choose but I find my cravings for these types of food diminishing as I get my bf lower. I have eaten 600 carbs and 5900 calories on a cheat day two months ago. Now my cheats are typically 275 carbs and around 4500 cals.

If you eat junk food then it's taking up budget that a clean whole food could take in it's place. A clean whole food on any given day is better than junk. So why hold yourself back? Assuming you are pushing yourself to your limits in the gym. Any impressive physique you see will tell you that protein should be eaten through whole foods and not protein powders. They eat whole foods and a most of their protein through real meats not powders. There isn't any special powder to help you reach those goals. Real food is the secret.

Anyway, thanks for reading. I think I'm done with suggesting real food is better than junk food.

We will have to agree to disagree then, about quite a few points. People are not holding themselves back by incorporating some foods that are less nutrient dense, assuming that they have a well balanced diet that includes a good portion of nutrient dense foods.

As I mentioned, there are A LOT of competitive bb'ers that incorporate what you would call junk into their diet. Check out people like Alberto Nunez, Matt Ogus and Layne Norton. I am pretty sure people would agree that they have an impressive physique (and are very competitive in power lifting at that).

I could not care less what your diet is, but trying to imply that people who incorporate junk do not have impressive physiques or are holding themselves back is just wrong.

mrbyte

I implied that they are holding themselves back. I did not say they did not have impressive physiques. Please understand I am talking people with low bf. No one I talk to that has a handle on their bf consistently eats junk. It just doesn't happen unless they are young adults.


I assure you that a bodybuilder isn't eating junk 8 weeks out of competition. It's a tight as it gets. They will junk up post contest. and pre stage to get fullness back from carb depletion. Off season is a completely different story because they are usually bulking. I'm surprised that you haven't heard of the 1.5g to 2g of protein per pound in the of LBM in the BB lifesyle considering you are bring up bodybuilding examples.