dieter's edema, squishy fat, wooshes and what nots

EvgeniZyntx

Question concering what is commonly called, dieter's edema, adipose tissue edema, or the fluidity of adipose tissue.

I've seen Lyle McDonald and Brad Pillon talking about this. But even Lyle recgonized that after many years of researching about in the literature, he's pretty uncertain that it exists.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

He mentions it, goes off on a tangent and at the end there isn't much there on dieter's edema.

My own research shows nothing - not one article. I'm of the uncertain belief that the dieter's edema is bunk, a theory to sell a book and even his blog no longe makes mention of dieter's edema.

But I'm open to be educated, anyone got an article or scientific reference of this?
(Note: wooshes and squisshy fat are obviously a real thing - weight loss isn't linear and all that. I'm specifically interested in a lipocyte intracellular or adipose tissue water retention due to reasonable calorie restriction.)

Anyone?

RivenV

Interesting theories in the article. I'm afraid I don't have anything to contribute; however, I'm intrigued by what I could learn from this thread.

ETA: Typo. Seriously, I cannot type one sentence without a typo.

usmcmp

I know we had a lecture on this in one of my microbial physiology courses (in 2004). There was lots of information about observations of fluid exchange in cells, but there were still tons of theories.

Jestinia

What if it's hormone related?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1105816

"After weight loss, changes in the circulating levels of several peripheral hormones involved in the homeostatic regulation of body weight occur."

Plus:

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/subcutaneous+edema

Many ordinary factors can upset the balance of fluid in the body to cause edema, including...Medications. Certain drugs, such as...hormone replacements...The changing levels of hormones affect the rate at which fluid enters and leaves the tissues.

jofjltncb6

In...

...to learn more about this mythical creature.

nomeejerome

in to read later

LiftAllThePizzas

In to see if any references show up.

servilia

My personal experience suggests its true but that's worth nothing. In for science!

Cranquistador

In to listen.

Jestinia

Just found this, too:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/159111.php

Malnutrition and/or bad diet - dietitians say low consumption of thiamine (vitamin B1), as well as insufficient vitamins B6 and B5 may contribute toward fluid retention. Low levels of albumin levels may also play a part - low albumin levels can also be caused by kidney disease.

happycauseIride

I have not done any research on this but I have experienced it myself. When I was bigger, before weight loss, the fat on my body was solid, not jiggly. Then I start eating right and working out and after a month or two suddenly the fat on my body got really soft and jiggly and suddenly there was a big drop on the scale. This cycle has repeated itself 4 or 5 times now. I can always tell when a whoosh is about to happen based on how my fat feels.

I'm not crazy.

wild_wild_life

Bump for later.

I wonder how easy this is to measure.

EvgeniZyntx

What if it's hormone related?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1105816

"After weight loss, changes in the circulating levels of several peripheral hormones involved in the homeostatic regulation of body weight occur."

Plus:

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/subcutaneous+edema

Many ordinary factors can upset the balance of fluid in the body to cause edema, including...Medications. Certain drugs, such as...hormone replacements...The changing levels of hormones affect the rate at which fluid enters and leaves the tissues.

Those are interesting but are, for the most part, extracellular and not a lipocyte process, AFAIK.

EvgeniZyntx

Just found this, too:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/159111.php

Malnutrition and/or bad diet - dietitians say low consumption of thiamine (vitamin B1), as well as insufficient vitamins B6 and B5 may contribute toward fluid retention. Low levels of albumin levels may also play a part - low albumin levels can also be caused by kidney disease.

Thiamine deficiency is also knows as beriberi and the mechanism of action is through vein relaxtion - it's the classical oedema seen in sailors historically (swollen legs to the point of skin bursting described in period literature), this too is extracellular and not specific to lipid tissue but peripheral areas - particularly the legs.

Edit: spelling

_KitKat_

In to learn more:drinker:

Jestinia

What if it's hormone related?

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1105816

"After weight loss, changes in the circulating levels of several peripheral hormones involved in the homeostatic regulation of body weight occur."

Plus:

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/subcutaneous+edema

Many ordinary factors can upset the balance of fluid in the body to cause edema, including...Medications. Certain drugs, such as...hormone replacements...The changing levels of hormones affect the rate at which fluid enters and leaves the tissues.

Those are interesting but are, for the most part, extracellular and not a lipocyte process, AFAIK.

I know. I was trying to find something specific, but I can't either. It was as close as I could get. Maybe I'll stumble across something later.

I know when I'm in a deficit for a few days my belly gets softer and more jiggly and it hardens back up when I'm gaining. It sure isn't muscle and I'm not losing enough in a matter of days for it to be loose skin or muscle loss, at least I don't think I am. I don't know exactly what causes it.

ILiftHeavyAcrylics

Interested.

EvgeniZyntx

I have not done any research on this but I have experienced it myself. When I was bigger, before weight loss, the fat on my body was solid, not jiggly. Then I start eating right and working out and after a month or two suddenly the fat on my body got really soft and jiggly and suddenly there was a big drop on the scale. This cycle has repeated itself 4 or 5 times now. I can always tell when a whoosh is about to happen based on how my fat feels.

I'm not crazy.

Thanks. I'm not questioning whooshes. They do happen. And as the Lyle article suggest, might be related to glycogen, might be something else - but is water being absorbed intra-cellularly? I'm still having doubts...

wheird

In to feel strangely aroused.

_SABOTEUR_

In for actual science.

Achrya

In, to hopefully learn some things!

QuietBloom

Yeah, I got nothin'. No anecdotes either, except hormonal edema sucks!

wheird

I am not familiar with this process (mental note to read up on it tonight), but basic physiology tells us that there must be homeostasis between ICF and ECF. Water retention is, in part, regulated by sodium levels. If the lipocytes are storing additional water, would they not require additional sodium, and thus could be combated by a reduced sodium intake, forcing the cells to release extra water?

ldrosophila

are we talking about homeostasis and water osmolality? I'd question any text book that couldn't support the science then went off on some tangent.

EvgeniZyntx

I am not familiar with this process (mental note to read up on it tonight), but basic physiology tells us that there must be homeostasis between ICF and ECF. Water retention is, in part, regulated by sodium levels. If the lipocytes are storing additional water, would they not require additional sodium, and thus could be combated by a reduced sodium intake, forcing the cells to release extra water?

Correct sir. Two processes if this was the case - since hoeostasis is a a ion concentration process either na/cl/ca driven (and could be driven by reduced salt intake) or increase of water will drive dilution up via ion channel pumps.

FindingMyPerfection

In for knowledge.

EvgeniZyntx

are we talking about homeostasis and water osmolality? I'd question any text book that couldn't support the science then went off on some tangent.

Homeoestatis (of this type) certainly has a lot to do with weight fluctuation, imflamatory response, etc. But Pilon mentioned cells absorbing water as a way of maintaining volumetric consistency - as if fat cells held onto water prior to a whoosh. The literature is shoeing me nothing to suggest this is true. I'm hoping that the crowd might have seen something.

Otherwise I can only say that science doesn't support Dieter's Edema and Pilon is faking it when he said he went back "deep into the research" to find this "missed" "scientific fact".

I finding it very suspect - as well as the arguments of "fat cells holding onto water".
Show me.

wheird

I am not familiar with this process (mental note to read up on it tonight), but basic physiology tells us that there must be homeostasis between ICF and ECF. Water retention is, in part, regulated by sodium levels. If the lipocytes are storing additional water, would they not require additional sodium, and thus could be combated by a reduced sodium intake, forcing the cells to release extra water?

Correct sir. Two processes if this was the case - since hoeostasis is a a ion concentration process either na/cl/ca driven (and could be driven by reduced salt intake) or increase of water will drive dilution up via ion channel pumps.

Excellent, on the same page then.


In terms of "squishy fat", could that not be caused by fat cells shrinking at different paces?

QuietBloom

I am not familiar with this process (mental note to read up on it tonight), but basic physiology tells us that there must be homeostasis between ICF and ECF. Water retention is, in part, regulated by sodium levels. If the lipocytes are storing additional water, would they not require additional sodium, and thus could be combated by a reduced sodium intake, forcing the cells to release extra water?

This makes me wonder if electrolyte balances could be involved in the squishy wooshes.

wheird

I am not familiar with this process (mental note to read up on it tonight), but basic physiology tells us that there must be homeostasis between ICF and ECF. Water retention is, in part, regulated by sodium levels. If the lipocytes are storing additional water, would they not require additional sodium, and thus could be combated by a reduced sodium intake, forcing the cells to release extra water?

This makes me wonder if electrolyte balances could be involved in the squishy wooshes.

That was kind of my thought as well. And those whooshes could coincide with a period of reduced sodium intake.

EvgeniZyntx

I am not familiar with this process (mental note to read up on it tonight), but basic physiology tells us that there must be homeostasis between ICF and ECF. Water retention is, in part, regulated by sodium levels. If the lipocytes are storing additional water, would they not require additional sodium, and thus could be combated by a reduced sodium intake, forcing the cells to release extra water?

Correct sir. Two processes if this was the case - since hoeostasis is a a ion concentration process either na/cl/ca driven (and could be driven by reduced salt intake) or increase of water will drive dilution up via ion channel pumps.

Excellent, on the same page then.


In terms of "squishy fat", could that not be caused by fat cells shrinking at different paces?

Possibly, tissue remodeling, lattice breakdown, or other processes.
From my readings, I am willing to bet that at least one of the processes is preferential selection of which lipids are used to form free fatty acids.

We know from really old literature (lovely descriptions in French from the revolution period) that the quality of meat flesh, butter etc is dependent of the "oil" diet of animals when these were changed and that the fat fluidity changed with specific diets exerimentally between butter and margerine in calves, etc. I would guess (guess!) that when you add that to how lipolysis rates occur differently for different lipids the fluidity of tissue is affected.