dieter's edema, squishy fat, wooshes and what nots

ldrosophila

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

OK I went back and read...my first thought is how would this even be possible inside a pretty hydrophobic cell? Seems most fluid would be found outside of the cell. Wouldnt know enough about adipose physiology to even venture a guess.

DSTMT

My personal experience suggests its true but that's worth nothing. In for science!

Same here...I have no actual proof of this scientifically being accurate, but I know for myself whenever I stop exercising/watching what I eat for a while and then get back into it, I always have a small weight gain and feel really puffy for a few days/couple of weeks until I get back into the routine, and then it seems to go away pretty quickly.

QuietBloom

Can you point me in the direction of Brad Pilon opining on this theory? I've poked around his site with little success.

Thanks!

In: For fat cells being pumped full of water!

QuietBloom

My personal experience suggests its true but that's worth nothing. In for science!

Same here...I have no actual proof of this scientifically being accurate, but I know for myself whenever I stop exercising/watching what I eat for a while and then get back into it, I always have a small weight gain and feel really puffy for a few days/couple of weeks until I get back into the routine, and then it seems to go away pretty quickly.

That could actually be the diet and exercise getting your fluids back your current 'normal state' of low-ish glycogen stores that you are achieving through calorie restriction.

stealthq

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

OK I went back and read...my first thought is how would this even be possible inside a pretty hydrophobic cell? Seems most fluid would be found outside of the cell. Wouldnt know enough about adipose physiology to even venture a guess.

The lipids are stored as a droplet, allowing the rest of the space to be hydrophilic - otherwise there's be issues with normal cellular processes. I just saw a paper that said the intracellular water content of white adipocytes was ~5-10% ... and now I can't find it again. So don't take that figure as gospel - who knows what I think I'm remembering.

EvgeniZyntx

Can you point me in the direction of Brad Pilon opining on this theory? I've poked around his site with little success.

Thanks!

In: For fat cells being pumped full of water!

He's removed the blog post from his site but here is the interview he gave:

http://www.vincedelmontefitness.com/blog/419/why-diets-stop-working/

Brad: Yes. It gets to a point where it starts to hide weight loss even though the body water isn’t going up, you’re body is getting smaller because your burning fat but you will get to a point where you aren’t losing any more water to go along with your fat loss; so your percentage of total body water might actually go up and it localizes itself where your fat used to be. Not a good thing. It also occurs very gradually.

Vince: Is there a scientific name for this phenomenon?

Brad: It’s known as dieter’s edema, or swelling. Dieter’s edema usually starts after the first month of semi-starvation, (and like I said earlier, any strict weight loss diet is similar to semi starvation). At first the swelling is very transient, it comes in later in the day, and it’s gone by the morning. As semi-starvation continues, this edema becomes more apparent and more massive. So the longer you diet, even when your weight loss starts to plateau, you’re still losing fat, but it’s being hidden by this edema (swelling).

Vince: That’s great that we finally have the answers to why this happens and we know it has nothing to do with some metabolic loss slowdown or malfunctioning enzymes, but it doesn’t change the fact that it happens. If you’re someone who is trying to get a six pack and get really lean, how do you prevent this? What are your options?

Brad: Well, first, as I told you, if you’re going to follow a traditional diet which is the same as clinical semi-starvation to get ultra-lean, it looks like you’re going to have to do periodic periods of re-feeding (eating more). Because there’s not a lot of new research on this we really don’t know how long you have to re-feed for, but it seems like the effect is fairly quick. Once you start eating a larger amount of calories, your edema will quickly go away to the point where it looks like you’re starting to lose weight again.

Vince: And what is the option you suggest in your new book?

Brad: I suggest another option in my book, and this option comes from research published as early as 1890.

The research I dug up showed that a full-day fast did not result in edema. That’s right, while semi-starvation causes dieter’s edema, total starvation or fasting, does not.

So you could use the ESE protocol of flexible intermittent fasting and weight training and you would not get dieter’s edema. What you’re essentially doing here is periods of complete starvation (fasting is a better word), which doesn’t cause dieter’s edema, followed by periods of re-feedings. Even if, for some weird, crazy reason, you did get a little bit of edema, it would go away very quickly with this system.

So ESE solved the dieters edema problem even before I knew the problem existed. The Eat Stop Eat lifestyle is meant to be used as an easy and effective weight loss strategy but it ended up fixing this other major problem with dieting too. I guess I kinda lucked out on that one!

ldrosophila

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

OK I went back and read...my first thought is how would this even be possible inside a pretty hydrophobic cell? Seems most fluid would be found outside of the cell. Wouldnt know enough about adipose physiology to even venture a guess.

The lipids are stored as a droplet, allowing the rest of the space to be hydrophilic - otherwise there's be issues with normal cellular processes. I just saw a paper that said the intracellular water content of white adipocytes was ~5-10% ... and now I can't find it again. So don't take that figure as gospel - who knows what I think I'm remembering.

So would it be possible for a cell to go from 10% to, just guessing, 75% fluid filled? I'm picturing little water balloons of fat cells.

Another question are the triglycerides arranged in the cell kind of like a circle of with their little arms inside the droplet?

Synchronicity

Huh. I know nothing about this. What a fun topic!

Alas, I can not contribute any actual knowledge to this thread except this little tidbit:

Proteins contribute to osmolarity too (see colloidal osmotic pressure and net filtration/absorption between capillaries, interstitial fluid, and the lymph system). It's not just about salt. Any 'solute' or particle dissolved in water will influence osmolarity.

This is speculation only, but perhaps dieting leads to a mild protein deficiency in some... if the deficiency is extracellular... well, you could get a net fluid movement into the cell, though why on earth it would be specific to fat is anyone's guess... and for that matter, I AM just guessing.

Maybe its time to go play on pubmed.

WalkingAlong

I've seen Pilon say the term dieter's edema is from the Minnesota starvation studies.

I too want to know more. I haven't seen much credible about it but I do experience squishy fat and whooshes.

I used to see reports of it more when I frequented a low carbers' bulletin board 10 or so years ago. I wonder if low carb diets encourage it more?

I know almost nothing about cellular biology and quantum physics. But it seems like if matter is mostly space and our bodies are mostly water, there might be something possible with ... I don't know... :ohwell:

ldrosophila

We know from really old literature (lovely descriptions in French from the revolution period) that the quality of meat flesh, butter etc is dependent of the "oil" diet of animals when these were changed and that the fat fluidity changed with specific diets exerimentally between butter and margerine in calves, etc. I would guess (guess!) that when you add that to how lipolysis rates occur differently for different lipids the fluidity of tissue is affected.

thats interesting what did they find?

EvgeniZyntx

We know from really old literature (lovely descriptions in French from the revolution period) that the quality of meat flesh, butter etc is dependent of the "oil" diet of animals when these were changed and that the fat fluidity changed with specific diets exerimentally between butter and margerine in calves, etc. I would guess (guess!) that when you add that to how lipolysis rates occur differently for different lipids the fluidity of tissue is affected.

thats interesting what did they find?

Certain oils like linseed make fat less fluid. (And less tasty)

Here is the modern version of that work but with rats. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20599739/

EvgeniZyntx

I've seen Pilon say the term dieter's edema is from the Minnesota starvation studies.

I too want to know more. I haven't seen much credible about it but I do experience squishy fat and whooshes.

I used to see reports of it more when I frequented a low carbers' bulletin board 10 or so years ago. I wonder if low carb diets encourage it more?

I know almost nothing about cellular biology and quantum physics. But it seems like if matter is mostly space and our bodies are mostly water, there might be something possible with ... I don't know... :ohwell:

Let's say it's from the MSS. What they saw was peripheral edema.

From wiki (i know)...

Some of the subjects exhibited edema in their extremities, presumably due to decreased levels of plasma proteins given that the body's ability to construct key proteins like albumin is based on available energy sources.

This is one of the reasons I'd like to see move evidence one way or another.

WalkingAlong

I haven't found anything in the research yet but this is pretty funny (though on a totally different topic)-

Persons with obesity may be poor estimators of caloric content of food. Health care professionals encourage patients to consult nutritional labels as one strategy to assess and restrict caloric intake. Among subjects enrolled in a weight loss clinical trial, the objective is to determine the accuracy of subjects' estimates of caloric deficit needed to achieve the desired weight loss. A 6-month controlled trial demonstrated efficacy of a portion control tool to induce weight loss in 130 obese people with type 2 diabetes. All subjects had previously received dietary teaching from a dietician and a nurse. At baseline, patients were asked how much weight they would like to lose and to quantitatively estimate the caloric deficit required to achieve this weight loss. The stated amount of weight loss desired ranged from 4.5 to 73 kg, with an average of 26.6 kg (n = 127 respondents). Only 30% of participants were willing to estimate the required caloric deficit to lose their target weight. Subjects' per kilograms estimate of caloric deficit required ranged from 0.7 to 2 000 000 calories/kg with a median of 86 calories/kg. Nearly half of subjects (47.4%) underestimated the total required caloric deficit to achieve their target weight loss by greater than 100 000 calories. Despite attendance at a diabetes education centre, this population of obese individuals had a poor understanding of the quantitative relationship between caloric deficit and weight loss. Educational initiatives focused upon quantitative caloric intake and its impact on weight change may be needed to assist obese patients in setting appropriate weight loss goals and achieving the appropriate daily caloric restriction required for success.

Errors in patient perception of caloric deficit required for weight loss—observations from the Diet Plate Trial.

Authors:
Kline, G. A.1 gakline@ucalgary.ca
Pedersen, S. D.2
Source:
Diabetes, Obesity & Metabolism. May2010, Vol. 12 Issue 5, p455-457. 3p. 2

SideSteel

In.

prdough

here is an interesting article I read while doing some research on the topic. http://suite101.com/a/the-truth-about-losing-water-weight-a366151

I'm not that knowledgeable on Science, but this was interesting.

WalkingAlong

More from Brad Pilon- (I think he means Ancel Keys.)

---

“Can you explain what dieter’s edema is? You are the only person
I’ve ever heard discuss this before.”

"BRAD: Right. So dieter’s edema is very interesting. Part of doing graduate work and research for “Eat Stop Eat” is learning how to ask a question, answer question and trying to find out where some of these assumptions came from. When you’re looking at dieting, it led me to the work of Andrew Keys who did a starvation experiment back in World War II. It was something that everyone used as a reference but no one ever sort of comes out and states they read it. So I tracked it down. It was two volumes with thousands of pages of data and research. In that work is where our original idea that when you’re dieting, cutting calories drastically, you get to a point where all of a sudden you just don’t lose any more weight, even though you’re still technically in calorie deficit. That actually happened with the people in this trial.

But when you do further measurements you realize they’re actually still losing body mass. They’re losing fat mass and they’re actually so depleted they start losing body tissue because these people were on massive diets for several years at a time. But their weight wasn’t changing. They realized that when the body goes into prolonged periods of a caloric deficit as the fat is burned as a fuel you tend to get a watery-like substance moving into where it was. These people started getting edema in their legs. Their legs were really bloated with sort of a water substance, to the point where they could stick their fingers in their legs and leave kind of fingerprints. I know it sounds odd to a lot of the guys but a lot of the women out there will understand what I’m talking about when I say a little bit of water bloating drastically affects the way we look..

This is really interesting because when you look at stories taken from fitness models and body builders with severely restricted diets, trying to get down to what are really unhealthy levels of body fat, for a short period of time for a show, some of them start to see they don’t, what they use a term called “stay smooth.” They’ll use a term “spill over.” They’re not actually gaining fat magically even though they’re in calorie deficit, they’re experiencing dieter’s edema.

The interesting thing with dieter’s edema is that it does not happen during a total fast. If you’re using fasts to lose weight you don’t see this edema. But when you’re using small amounts of calories you tend to get this odd edema going on, in certain cases that are fairly rare. It was unique enough…I wrote a book about it in the “Eat Stop Eat” advanced package.

It’s very phenomenal research. The research was done in the day before a lot of the research ethics that we have now. No way, ever, I could go back to school and recreate those trials. I would not be allowed. We have rules to protect the subjects of trials. That’s how bad of an environment these people were in. So you can’t reproduce this diet. It’s one of a kind data that’s only really found in Andrew Keys work and then in some really interesting work from, believe it or not, the 1800s. They found the same thing.

Extrapolating that to what we’ve seen with fitness models and body builders and severe diets for prolonged periods of time, we realize that the water in your body does play an absolute, huge, underappreciated role in how we look and what we weigh. Even slight fluctuations make water in our body, if it’s close to our skin, can make you look like you’re not losing weight and can take what would have been a very sharp six-pack and make it blurry or almost nonexistent. It’s a little bit of type of bloat that women might see before their period, that sort of concept. Exaggerate that to your whole body and you’ll see where this could create a drastic difference in how your body looks.

An interesting thing I came across, did all the research I could on it and figured it was something people should probably know about. One of the reasons we have that misconception that after a while your body will actually hold onto fat, even though you’re in a caloric deficit, it wasn’t fat. It was a water-like substance."

ldrosophila

I haven't found anything in the research yet but this is pretty funny (though on a totally different topic)-

Persons with obesity may be poor estimators of caloric content of food. Health care professionals encourage patients to consult nutritional labels as one strategy to assess and restrict caloric intake. Among subjects enrolled in a weight loss clinical trial, the objective is to determine the accuracy of subjects' estimates of caloric deficit needed to achieve the desired weight loss. A 6-month controlled trial demonstrated efficacy of a portion control tool to induce weight loss in 130 obese people with type 2 diabetes. All subjects had previously received dietary teaching from a dietician and a nurse. At baseline, patients were asked how much weight they would like to lose and to quantitatively estimate the caloric deficit required to achieve this weight loss. The stated amount of weight loss desired ranged from 4.5 to 73 kg, with an average of 26.6 kg (n = 127 respondents). Only 30% of participants were willing to estimate the required caloric deficit to lose their target weight. Subjects' per kilograms estimate of caloric deficit required ranged from 0.7 to 2 000 000 calories/kg with a median of 86 calories/kg. Nearly half of subjects (47.4%) underestimated the total required caloric deficit to achieve their target weight loss by greater than 100 000 calories. Despite attendance at a diabetes education centre, this population of obese individuals had a poor understanding of the quantitative relationship between caloric deficit and weight loss. Educational initiatives focused upon quantitative caloric intake and its impact on weight change may be needed to assist obese patients in setting appropriate weight loss goals and achieving the appropriate daily caloric restriction required for success.

Errors in patient perception of caloric deficit required for weight loss—observations from the Diet Plate Trial.

Authors:
Kline, G. A.1 gakline@ucalgary.ca
Pedersen, S. D.2
Source:
Diabetes, Obesity & Metabolism. May2010, Vol. 12 Issue 5, p455-457. 3p. 2

wow...is that 100,000 calories? not sure if its funny but portion distortion is a real thing

cafeaulait7

I never have whooshes, but I do get the squishy fat. Nothing in how I lose weight indicates a big water drop; my lbs lost are really gradual. The fat on my belly does get a different texture, definitely, though. And then the inches go down, but again it's a gradual progression.

MacInCali

In.
Because, yeah, squishy fat.

Jestinia

More from Brad Pilon- (I think he means Ancel Keys.)

---

“Can you explain what dieter’s edema is? You are the only person
I’ve ever heard discuss this before.”

"BRAD: Right. So dieter’s edema is very interesting. Part of doing graduate work and research for “Eat Stop Eat” is learning how to ask a question, answer question and trying to find out where some of these assumptions came from. When you’re looking at dieting, it led me to the work of Andrew Keys who did a starvation experiment back in World War II. It was something that everyone used as a reference but no one ever sort of comes out and states they read it. So I tracked it down. It was two volumes with thousands of pages of data and research. In that work is where our original idea that when you’re dieting, cutting calories drastically, you get to a point where all of a sudden you just don’t lose any more weight, even though you’re still technically in calorie deficit. That actually happened with the people in this trial.

But when you do further measurements you realize they’re actually still losing body mass. They’re losing fat mass and they’re actually so depleted they start losing body tissue because these people were on massive diets for several years at a time. But their weight wasn’t changing. They realized that when the body goes into prolonged periods of a caloric deficit as the fat is burned as a fuel you tend to get a watery-like substance moving into where it was. These people started getting edema in their legs. Their legs were really bloated with sort of a water substance, to the point where they could stick their fingers in their legs and leave kind of fingerprints. I know it sounds odd to a lot of the guys but a lot of the women out there will understand what I’m talking about when I say a little bit of water bloating drastically affects the way we look..

This is really interesting because when you look at stories taken from fitness models and body builders with severely restricted diets, trying to get down to what are really unhealthy levels of body fat, for a short period of time for a show, some of them start to see they don’t, what they use a term called “stay smooth.” They’ll use a term “spill over.” They’re not actually gaining fat magically even though they’re in calorie deficit, they’re experiencing dieter’s edema.

The interesting thing with dieter’s edema is that it does not happen during a total fast. If you’re using fasts to lose weight you don’t see this edema. But when you’re using small amounts of calories you tend to get this odd edema going on, in certain cases that are fairly rare. It was unique enough…I wrote a book about it in the “Eat Stop Eat” advanced package.

It’s very phenomenal research. The research was done in the day before a lot of the research ethics that we have now. No way, ever, I could go back to school and recreate those trials. I would not be allowed. We have rules to protect the subjects of trials. That’s how bad of an environment these people were in. So you can’t reproduce this diet. It’s one of a kind data that’s only really found in Andrew Keys work and then in some really interesting work from, believe it or not, the 1800s. They found the same thing.

Extrapolating that to what we’ve seen with fitness models and body builders and severe diets for prolonged periods of time, we realize that the water in your body does play an absolute, huge, underappreciated role in how we look and what we weigh. Even slight fluctuations make water in our body, if it’s close to our skin, can make you look like you’re not losing weight and can take what would have been a very sharp six-pack and make it blurry or almost nonexistent. It’s a little bit of type of bloat that women might see before their period, that sort of concept. Exaggerate that to your whole body and you’ll see where this could create a drastic difference in how your body looks.

An interesting thing I came across, did all the research I could on it and figured it was something people should probably know about. One of the reasons we have that misconception that after a while your body will actually hold onto fat, even though you’re in a caloric deficit, it wasn’t fat. It was a water-like substance."

If true, what would make it so that it doesn't happen at all when losing weight from fasting? Assuming water intake wasn't limited as well.

RachelX04

in

tkcasta

in..teresting

desgmz

in

WalkingAlong

I don't know but I'm leery of trusting Brad Pilon's research because he's selling a product that he feels is supported by this theory so he's not every objective. But I love that he and Lyle M. at least address it and try to come up with something.

Plus it sounds like famine edema is known to occur ten times more in men than women and is in the lower extremities. It doesn't sound like the same thing, though maybe it's related?

beachlover317

In to read later.

EvgeniZyntx

Re : the BP quote at the top of this page.

That is a nice advert for his work but his research work did not lead to publication from what I can see in pubmed, the research from 1800 is at best poor work (the role of salt is only understood at around 1850, in 1800 we still talk about dropsy, mercury is still a diuretic and bleeding, leeching common place) or at worst hearsay.

Also, what he states about resistance to loss in MSS is inaccurate - it did occur, to a limited degree with a few individuals but it was not what was seen with the majority.

Extrapolating from famine to small calorie deficit seems spacious at this point.

But I'll continue looking.

QuietBloom

I don't know but I'm leery of trusting Brad Pilon's research because he's selling a product that he feels is supported by this theory so he's not every objective. But I love that he and Lyle M. at least address it and try to come up with something.

Plus it sounds like famine edema is known to occur ten times more in men than women and is in the lower extremities. It doesn't sound like the same thing, though maybe it's related?

That's peripheral edema. Pilon is saying that dieters are holding water weight specifically where their fat deposits are. He mentions their legs getting swollen, so that is in line with peripheral edema. But then he makes this jump to the water moving into the previous fatty deposits of dieters. He's all over the place.

My guess is he is full of BS.

QuietBloom

So would it be possible for a cell to go from 10% to, just guessing, 75% fluid filled? I'm picturing little water balloons of fat cells.

Another question are the triglycerides arranged in the cell kind of like a circle of with their little arms inside the droplet?

That is the question, yes.

EvgeniZyntx

So would it be possible for a cell to go from 10% to, just guessing, 75% fluid filled? I'm picturing little water balloons of fat cells.

Another question are the triglycerides arranged in the cell kind of like a circle of with their little arms inside the droplet?

That is the question, yes.

Well from my own research in cell adhesion (smooth muscle cells, immortal lines, chick aorta, fresh) growth serum balancing can create at least a 40-50% change in volume (as measure in a flow cytometer, so error is high) and remain viable. But these were not loaded fat cells.

As to the triglycerides, yes, micelles are just single thickness triglyceride bubble with "the little arms inside the droplet " - the hydrophobic "arms" keeps the lipids away from the intracellular liquid. This is also, btw, how amino acids are transported during absorption in digestion. Need triglycerides to transport protein.

Lupercalia

Tagging to read later.