Muscle gain from cardio?
Replies
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Everyone is saying you can't build muscle from anything other than lifting. Not true!
Tell that to serious runners.
Tell that to gymnasts.
Tell that to swimmers.
Tell that to Lance Armstrong and the whole USA team...doping or not.
Yes, these people may lift a bit...but they definitely gain muscle from their other activities as well.
I would have to read back through more carefully but I doubt anyone said lifting weights is the only way to build muscle. Any progressive overload resistance training will do it.
But, all of these athletes have specific strength programs as part of their training. So I don't understand the examples.
I would like to add a personal example. Last year I wanted to run a sub 7 minute mile. I have already done lots of endurance work and this was my first real speed goal. My training to improve my pace was obviously running, but also sprints, hill sprints and strength training specifically for explosive power. It worked.0 -
<<I don't lift. I do cardio, running and cycling. I have gained muscle and mass in my quads and calfs. I run mostly half marathons. I always eat back my exercise calories. On long run days, I usually overeat back my exercise calories. I overconsume protien because I'm old and need protein to heal up the damage. I think my gains are from cycling, because I ride a **** tonne of hills, so its more likely cardio with resistance.
Exactly. Happens all the time. I bet people try to tell you that you were born like that, though.0 -
<<I don't lift. I do cardio, running and cycling. I have gained muscle and mass in my quads and calfs. I run mostly half marathons. I always eat back my exercise calories. On long run days, I usually overeat back my exercise calories. I overconsume protien because I'm old and need protein to heal up the damage. I think my gains are from cycling, because I ride a **** tonne of hills, so its more likely cardio with resistance.
Exactly. Happens all the time. I bet people try to tell you that you were born like that, though.
Nah.. it's just water weight, protecting the muscles. *giggle*0 -
Well, here's a link to an article on 70s Big: http://www.liftbigeatbig.com/2011/11/how-extended-cardio-will-inhibit-your.html
You don't gain muscle from cardio. It's a catabolic process and building muscle is done on an anabolic process.I've been goin to the gym since the start of the year and my diary has been solid almost always under my goal yet I've put on the last 2 weeks? I know I'm gaining muscle but how much muscle can you gain from just doing cardio and nothing but cardio? Enough to put 2.5 lb in a week?
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bump
Cardio is only going to be catabolic if you don't have sufficient energy to sustain it. Eat carbs and protein before your cardio, and there's no reason whatsoever for it to be a catabolic process.
It's not exactly what you're talking about, but it does explain why long, steady-state cardio is catabolic. HIIT, such as Tabata protocol, will not be catabolic. There are references in that article that may lead to what you're looking for.
An ideological rant on a website does not equal "research". Or even fact.0 -
To be clear, my point was to share the references at the end of the article, not the article itself.
Well, here's a link to an article on 70s Big: http://www.liftbigeatbig.com/2011/11/how-extended-cardio-will-inhibit-your.html
You don't gain muscle from cardio. It's a catabolic process and building muscle is done on an anabolic process.I've been goin to the gym since the start of the year and my diary has been solid almost always under my goal yet I've put on the last 2 weeks? I know I'm gaining muscle but how much muscle can you gain from just doing cardio and nothing but cardio? Enough to put 2.5 lb in a week?
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bump
Cardio is only going to be catabolic if you don't have sufficient energy to sustain it. Eat carbs and protein before your cardio, and there's no reason whatsoever for it to be a catabolic process.
It's not exactly what you're talking about, but it does explain why long, steady-state cardio is catabolic. HIIT, such as Tabata protocol, will not be catabolic. There are references in that article that may lead to what you're looking for.
An ideological rant on a website does not equal "research". Or even fact.0 -
I don't understand what you mean by converting. What are you saying you're converting to muscle? Or are we talking about developing slow twitch vs. fast twitch here? What is being converted to what exactly?
STored fat + dietary protein into muscle growth.
This is not really possible. To burn fat storage you need to be in a calorie deficit. To build muscle you need energy and building materials (protein) at the same time. When you eat food you produces insulin. Insulin stops the use of fat as an energy source. Since protein can be used for energy it will be burned up and it can not really be stored for later use.
You will only have a surplus of energy and protein, simultaneously, around feeding times. While in a deficit, this will only be for a small portion of the day and most likely only long enough to just repair and replace what got used for the work out and not enough time for any new mass. You will not have protein available while body fat is being used for energy. Fat can not be converted to protein so you can not use stored body fat to build muscle.
Cardio activities can build muscle when there is sufficient resistance. Newbies can see some muscle growth from even normal forms of cardio because, for them, the resistance is sufficient enough to cause the body to adapt. This will quickly stop though if more resistance is not added. Like incline, hills, and the like. You can quickly adapt to these though and once you get the max amount of adaptation you will probably not get anymore from simply doing that exercise longer.0 -
<<I don't lift. I do cardio, running and cycling. I have gained muscle and mass in my quads and calfs. I run mostly half marathons. I always eat back my exercise calories. On long run days, I usually overeat back my exercise calories. I overconsume protien because I'm old and need protein to heal up the damage. I think my gains are from cycling, because I ride a **** tonne of hills, so its more likely cardio with resistance.
Running hills is good for gains too.
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Thanks for responding. At my age I am more concerned with keeping and strengthening the muscles that I have...as soon as I can find them underneath the fat!
I do cardio and some strength training and try to keep challenging myself as I progress. I am limited as to what I can do however due to an injury that fairly well destroyed any core muscles that I have.
If I can ask one more question...
I change my routine up fairly often(I get bored easily). As I progress and am able to do more I try to add to it even if it is just something small. Is this what I should be doing. For example...I can do squats...I started with no weight and today I added 8lb dumbbells.
I have done a lot of research but there is not much out there for people that have no core muscles left. When they say tighten up your core...I just kind of laugh...and then do the best that I can.
THis guy has not picked up a weight in over 8 years.
Huge? No. WEll built with good definition? IMHO, yes.
http://www.alternativecomplementarymedicine.com/wp-content/uploads/ddp-yoga31-620x350.jpg
Link doesn't work. Yoga can definitely be resistance training.0 -
Who the hell cares? Do the exercise optimized for the desired result. Or argue about it for another 5 pages.0
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Why on earth not? Catabolic (in terms of muscles) means your body is breaking down the muscle to digest it. You see long term effects of this in people on extremely low calorie diets (severe anorexia and bulemia), or in extreme cases of muscle atrophy (coma patient).
If you can show me the science as to why cardio should be catabolic, if you are timing your workout to your food intake, even in "a caloric deficit", I'd love to see it, as I have not been able to find it.
There's simply no good reason for your body to digest muscle, if you have adequate dietary intake of protein and available fuel at the time of the workout.
No, it's still a catabolic state. You mitigate muscle catabolism by giving the body preferential energy sources to catabolize but you can't change the metabolic pathways to something else. It's still catabolic.
Right. Digestion is catabolic. Put a salad in your stomach, and your body uses a catabolic process to break it down into food.
Your body also uses an anabolic process to store it as fat.
And it uses an anabolic process to build muscle.
The question I have, is WHY would your body, when presented with adequate fuel in the form of carbs and protein in your system, at the time of the workout and shortly after, catabolize MUSCLE when it has no reason to do so?
If you're in a caloric deficit you're always going to catabolize some muscle. There's no way to mitigate it 100%.
If you're at maintenance or a surplus and you fuel before endurance cardio and intake more glycogen before you hit glycogen depletion there's minimal muscle catabolism. I really don't understand what point you're trying to make. It's never going to be anabolic during SS cardio no matter how you fuel.
Bluntly, THE SCIENCE SHOW ME IT. A link to another thread on this forum saying the same thing is not science. A link to a weighlifting forum somewhere else is not science. Repeating the same thing over and over and saying "Everyone knows' is not science.
"everyone knows" you should drink 8 glasses of water a day. "everyone knows" you get sore because of lactic acid buildup. "everyone knows" that sugar will make you fat. All opinions, none based whatsoever in science.
Please, show me the study that addresses muscle catabolism during exercise on a reasonable caloric deficit, but eating proper nutrition. I'd LOVE to see it.
I've already been shown three footnotes which don't even address it, but I read em!
How does the law of thermodynamics work for you? Is that solid enough science?0 -
How does the law of thermodynamics work for you? Is that solid enough science?
which one?0 -
IF there's a lactic acid build up. If not, then the exercise is still aerobic and not anaerobic. Anaerobic exercise is what one does to achieve muscle growth.Just curious...
Can you achieve progressive overload through cardio at least for a while by increasing the intensity of cardio. Let's say...if during your walks you start climbing stairs...or climbing hills.
Yes unless there is some "enhancement" going on. Many natural body builders will peak, then start on anabolics to further enhance their muscle growth.Also...what happens to the progressive overload when one has reached his limit on increasing his lifting weight. Will his muscles acclimate to that weight and just stay there...
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If one is in calorie deficit through eating and using cardio to achieve deficit, it's gonna be catabolic. Reduction of energy and body weight is a catabolic process.Cardio is only going to be catabolic if you don't have sufficient energy to sustain it. Eat carbs and protein before your cardio, and there's no reason whatsoever for it to be a catabolic process.
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If the body is in calorie deficit, catabolism occurs. One could eat carbs, protein and fat and still be in deficit. Muscle will be the LAST source of energy used while the body isn't in EXTREME calorie deficit. Switch it to an extreme calorie deficit and muscle will certainly be catabolized.Why on earth not? Catabolic (in terms of muscles) means your body is breaking down the muscle to digest it. You see long term effects of this in people on extremely low calorie diets (severe anorexia and bulemia), or in extreme cases of muscle atrophy (coma patient).
If you can show me the science as to why cardio should be catabolic, if you are timing your workout to your food intake, even in "a caloric deficit", I'd love to see it, as I have not been able to find it.
There's simply no good reason for your body to digest muscle, if you have adequate dietary intake of protein and available fuel at the time of the workout.
No, it's still a catabolic state. You mitigate muscle catabolism by giving the body preferential energy sources to catabolize but you can't change the metabolic pathways to something else. It's still catabolic.
Right. Digestion is catabolic. Put a salad in your stomach, and your body uses a catabolic process to break it down into food.
Your body also uses an anabolic process to store it as fat.
And it uses an anabolic process to build muscle.
The question I have, is WHY would your body, when presented with adequate fuel in the form of carbs and protein in your system, at the time of the workout and shortly after, catabolize MUSCLE when it has no reason to do so?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Studies on why it's hard to gain muscle on a calorie deficit
Reduced Testosterone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20096034
Impaired protein synthesis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20164371
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17229738
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767841
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Essentially this is correct IF supplied with sufficient protein and calories to do it. Exercise breaks muscle down, not build it up.Let's get this straight. You don't build muscle by doing cardio or lifting weights...
Your body builds muscle when you REST!
That should end this argument.
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Do you know what 'cardio' is? You do not gain from doing 'cardio'.
You may gain from the stress being put on your legs/back/arms when pushing/pulling, but you will not gain from 'cardio'.0 -
<<I don't lift. I do cardio, running and cycling. I have gained muscle and mass in my quads and calfs. I run mostly half marathons. I always eat back my exercise calories. On long run days, I usually overeat back my exercise calories. I overconsume protien because I'm old and need protein to heal up the damage. I think my gains are from cycling, because I ride a **** tonne of hills, so its more likely cardio with resistance.
Exactly. Happens all the time. I bet people try to tell you that you were born like that, though.
Nah.. it's just water weight, protecting the muscles. *giggle*
Awww it's cute that you think adding a giggle and mocking people makes you right.
How about that he's not really built much muscle - he can just see it more easily now he's lost 22lbs.
1) how do you know you've built muscle - measurement? Dexa scan or just that you can see them now?
2) you over eat your exercise calories - meaning you're probably not in a deficit, more likely you are in maintenance and doing a slow recomp
3)Hills are not SS cardio and are a form on resistance training. It has already been stated that noobs can gain a very small amount of muscle when starting - esp if they aren't actually in a deficit.
4) you don't really log - how would you know if you are in a deficit.
Basically you can't say you are proof that you can build muscle doing cardio on a deficit as you are doing resistance via hills, not logging so don't know if you are in a deficit and using photos as proof :noway:
Oh should I add in a *giggle* here?0 -
Bumping to read later0
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Absolutely not. You might have a water retention spike but you're not building pounds of muscle doing cardio. Cardio is the opposite of muscle-building.
This.0 -
Who the hell cares? Do the exercise optimized for the desired result. Or argue about it for another 5 pages.
Trust me at least one person will continue to argue versus anything else posted. And it will be for more then 5 pages.0 -
You can't gain muscle if all you do is cardio.
It is either a fluctuation or you are under estimating your intake/over estimating your TDEE.
Do you weigh everything you eat/drink with a food scale?
omg that means i have to eat less to lose weight... >< i think i am overestimating my tdee ):0 -
Studies on why it's hard to gain muscle on a calorie deficit
Reduced Testosterone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20096034
Impaired protein synthesis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20164371
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17229738
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767841
Yes. Hard. Not impossible.
Some people cannot do it. Some can. They will not show the same gains in muscle they would show were they doing a "bulk and cut" series.
For someone who is looking to build as fast and as much as possible, it's not the optimal way to go.
But it keeps getting stated as a flat rule that "you cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit", and that's disproven. Repeatedly.
"It will be much harder to do" and "it will take you a much longer time" is not the same as "You cannot" and "it won't happen".0 -
What it really comes down to, in cases where people are riding the razor's edge from a dietary sense and staying at nearly the same weight but decreasing bf%, is that it's EXTREMELY difficult to know with certainty whether or not someone is in a deficit. Variations in activity level (TDEE details) and potential inaccuracies in intake numbers (calorie consumption details) mean that in just about every case, people are fluctuating between surplus energy levels and deficit energy levels when they're walking this fine line. This makes conducting studies on the matter insanely difficult to manage with clinical accuracy.
To be fair, it's probably more honest to say that it is extremely difficult to gain any muscle mass while attempting to maintain a deficit, for anyone other than 1. complete newbs 2. obese people 3. those using steroids. But rather than use all of those qualifiers to split hairs on the subject, most people make the more reasonable (and brief) statement that if you want to gain muscle, you should be in a surplus.0 -
Studies on why it's hard to gain muscle on a calorie deficit
Reduced Testosterone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20096034
Impaired protein synthesis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20164371
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17229738
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767841
Yes. Hard. Not impossible.
Some people cannot do it. Some can. They will not show the same gains in muscle they would show were they doing a "bulk and cut" series.
For someone who is looking to build as fast and as much as possible, it's not the optimal way to go.
But it keeps getting stated as a flat rule that "you cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit", and that's disproven. Repeatedly.
"It will be much harder to do" and "it will take you a much longer time" is not the same as "You cannot" and "it won't happen".
Note the bolded part. I still haven't seen any proof on building muscle on a deficit and I've read through this entire thread. Would like to see the proof please.0 -
Let us strike up this conversation a year from now when those who are only doing cardio and eating at a deficit continue increasing their muscle gain and have 20" calves, ripped abs like you see on those muscle builder magazines, a 75" chest and 22" biceps. Arguing is useless in the face of anecdotal evidence when hard, iron clad proof is only a year away.0
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I'll be getting a follow-up DEXA scan in a few weeks, so we shall see. I am hopeful that the results will show a gain of almost 2 pounds of muscle and the loss of almost 6 pounds of fat. However, I maintain such a small average deficit as to consider the last six months as practically speaking a whole bunch of mini bulk/cut cycles. That's my bet. I also don't do much cardio, but I lift like a mofo, so it won't really speak to the muscle gain from cardio issue. Only the muscle gain on a slight deficit issue.Studies on why it's hard to gain muscle on a calorie deficit
Reduced Testosterone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20096034
Impaired protein synthesis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20164371
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17229738
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767841
Yes. Hard. Not impossible.
Some people cannot do it. Some can. They will not show the same gains in muscle they would show were they doing a "bulk and cut" series.
For someone who is looking to build as fast and as much as possible, it's not the optimal way to go.
But it keeps getting stated as a flat rule that "you cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit", and that's disproven. Repeatedly.
"It will be much harder to do" and "it will take you a much longer time" is not the same as "You cannot" and "it won't happen".
Note the bolded part. I still haven't seen any proof on building muscle on a deficit and I've read through this entire thread. Would like to see the proof please.0 -
If we're speaking in absolutes.................nothing is impossible. Improbable, more than likely. For the sake of complication to members here (since many are trying to transform their physiques in a shorter time vs a longer one) it's pretty safe to say that if someone is in calorie deficit (who isn't obese, a returning athlete or a complete newbie to exercise) the chances of building any "significant" muscle is improbable.Studies on why it's hard to gain muscle on a calorie deficit
Reduced Testosterone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20096034
Impaired protein synthesis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20164371
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17229738
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767841
Yes. Hard. Not impossible.
Some people cannot do it. Some can. They will not show the same gains in muscle they would show were they doing a "bulk and cut" series.
For someone who is looking to build as fast and as much as possible, it's not the optimal way to go.
But it keeps getting stated as a flat rule that "you cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit", and that's disproven. Repeatedly.
"It will be much harder to do" and "it will take you a much longer time" is not the same as "You cannot" and "it won't happen".
People saying they gained 2.5lbs of weight after working out for a week or two should know it's not muscle they gained.
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Let us strike up this conversation a year from now when those who are only doing cardio and eating at a deficit continue increasing their muscle gain and have 20" calves, ripped abs like you see on those muscle builder magazines, a 75" chest and 22" biceps. Arguing is useless in the face of anecdotal evidence when hard, iron clad proof is only a year away.
LOL.. yeah, cause you can build a 75" chest in a year. Sure.0 -
If we're speaking in absolutes.................nothing is impossible. Improbable, more than likely. For the sake of complication to members here (since many are trying to transform their physiques in a shorter time vs a longer one) it's pretty safe to say that if someone is in calorie deficit (who isn't obese, a returning athlete or a complete newbie to exercise) the chances of building any "significant" muscle is improbable.
People saying they gained 2.5lbs of weight after working out for a week or two should know it's not muscle they gained.
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Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
This I agree with, especially the bolded.
I disagree with a flat statement that you cannot lose fat and build muscle at the same time.0
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