Muscle Cannibalism

richardbigg

So, I have been burning some serious calories on the bike and swimming. When talking to a body builder friend of mine, he warned me about muscle cannibalism, where you consume so little calories that your body consumes the muscle and keeps the fat. Today for example, I burned almost 3700 calories on the bike, after having a breakfast of oatmeal and raisins that was 350 calories. During the ride, I ate a banana and had one bottle of a sports drink that was 100 calories. For the day, I have consumed about 1300 calories total. When I click to finish the total for the day, it says I have a deficit of almost 2400 calories, but no warning that I am not consuming enough. So, any advice on how to do cardio and weight training without cannibalizing the muscles?

shazbox1

How long/hard did you bike? 3700 calories seems high. I'm 275 pounds and I think I only burn ~1000 per hour.

I have read that eating shortly after you finish your workout helps to restock the energy supplies you drained out of your muscles, which should help.

Hopefully some smarter people have some better answers though, I'm interested to hear.


EDIT: I also remember reading that taking a cool shower after a hard ride helps cool your muscles down and decrease breakdown, but that might just be fancy Tour de France science.

_Terrapin_

OP--do you know your BF or LBM? Also when swimming how far and how fast? Answers to these questions assist in answering questions about muscle loss? For perspective, if I swim for an hour and then lift later in the day, at what point would I be losing muscle? And how many calories would I consume to maintain or drop weight? I can answer these for me since I know the above numbers. Make sense?

tuckerrj

It's called catabolism. http://www.livestrong.com/article/500765-how-to-prevent-catabolism-of-muscle/
Unless you're actually ingesting & digesting your own muscle tissue.

ironanimal

I'm not sure of the exact maths and science, but fat metabolism has a limited rate and deficit beyond that must be taken from other sources; be it muscle or other lean tissue. Glycogen stores are used up pretty quickly.

Be careful being that you're approaching 50. Testosterone and HGH production are going to be way down on your twenties, and it will be harder to regain lost muscle mass.

It's generally accepted that a rate of loss exceeding 2lbs a week greatly increases the % weight loss from sources other than fat, so keep an eye on it. FWIW, the average man of 5'11'', 180lbs, (<<< guesses) 46 years old, moderately active, would maintain weight on about 2700 cals a day. Dock a 1000 for your upper safe deficit.

bwogilvie

Run a moderate deficit and lift weights--heavy, moderate reps.

Just curious: how long did you ride, and in what terrain? My Garmin Edge 800 estimated that I burned about 4200 calories on a 111-mile ride with nearly 9000 feet of climbing (and Strava's estimate was nearly identical). I'm 45 and weighed about 175 lb. at the time. If I'm riding for more than 40 miles, I need to consume about 200-250 calories an hour in food and drink in order to avoid a bonk, though since I have been on a deficit, I think I can go somewhat longer.

After a couple of hours of moderately intense endurance exercise, over half your calories are coming from fat, while the contribution of carbohydrate declines (see the useful discussion in Tim Noakes, Lore of Running). A well conditioned athlete has glycogen stores that can last for 2-3 hours at sub-maximum exertion--one reason that marathon runners often hit the wall about 20 miles into the race. But for most people, after you've exhausted your muscle glycogen, what's most important is keeping blood glucose up for the brain to function. You'd have to be fairly lean or pushing very hard to begin to metabolize muscle tissue during the event.

It's more important to eat after exercise, to restore muscle glycogen and make some protein available for muscle repair. A pint of lowfat chocolate milk makes a great recovery drink, with a 4:1 ratio of carbohydrates to protein (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23075563). Eat a good amount of protein within the next few hours after exercise, and you should be good.

MoreBean13

Tagging to respond after TWD.

Unless someone else posts my response for me.

jonnythan

Your friend is clearly extremely knowledgeable.

Mr_Knight

Today for example, I burned almost 3700 calories ...When I click to finish the total for the day, it says I have a deficit of almost 2400 calories...

If that is a typical day, there is something very out of whack with either your food or exercise logging because that isn't even remotely sustainable.

michellekicks

How to do it? Eat enough.

Each day you burn this:
BMR - organ function, breathing etc.
EAT - exercise activity thermogenesis (burn from your workout)
NEAT - non-exercise activity thermogenesis (burn from walking, showering, cooking, standing, moving, driving etc.)
TEF - thermic effect of food

Eat to cover your BMR plus your burn from exercise. TEF is small and relatively negligible. If you want to keep a deficit to lean out, let it be your NEAT or less, thus, eat maybe BMR plus your exercise calories each day. Plus, eat 1g protein for every pound of lean body mass and do a full-body lifting routine 2-3 times a week to maintain mass in a deficit.

Eat during rides if you're going over 90 minutes or so, fuel beforehand with carbs, replenish with carbs and protein after.

SunofaBeach14

You certainly aren't eating enough.

bwogilvie

Just a quick followup: I have had a couple days in the last year when my daily calories were a net negative. But that was after a few days of carb loading, and I made up the deficit in the few days after the event. You simply can't be routinely burning more calories than you eat. Hanging out as I occasionally do among distance athletes, the one thing I have learned is that after the sport, eating is the most pleasurable activity you can engage in. (And drinking beer, too, hence the Hash House Harriers' self-description as "a drinking group with a running problem.")

richardbigg

I usually bike about an hour and a half to 2 hours about twice a week during the weekdays, but on weekends can stretch that much further as I have more time. A 100 mile bike ride is not out of the question on the weekend. I do make it a point to ingest a protein drink right after exercising to stave off as much muscle loss as possible, and on my very long bike rides, I usually bring a couple slices of bread with peanut butter. As far as swimming is concerned, I swim about 2 miles twice a week, but can sometimes hit the pool 3 times a week depending on my schedule at work.

For those that have asked, the calorie deficit is not that large on a daily basis. In fact, I've had some days where I exercise and almost go over my calorie goal. I was just using yesterday's as an example. I would say that my net calories on a typical day range in the four to five hundred calories after taking away calories from cardio.

I mainly asked the question because I am noticing that I am getting stronger in both my swimming and biking, but not in the gym lifting weights. When I look in the mirror, my muscles look more defined and somewhat bigger, but the overall strength has either fallen off or stayed the same as when I started dieting a month ago. Thanks for taking the time to reply. So far there have been some good responses, even with the lack of detail I provided.

arrseegee

I would say that my net calories on a typical day range in the four to five hundred calories after taking away calories from cardio.

It is not surprising that you are losing strength, as you will be netting less than a quarter of your BMR on a daily basis.

You need to look at ways you can replenish your body after doing so much exercise. I would imagine it means you will be spending a significant portion of your day eating. As a teenager I was burning on average 3000 calories each day swimming, and in order to maintain my strength and weight my life revolved around food.

tennisdude2004

I usually bike about an hour and a half to 2 hours about twice a week during the weekdays, but on weekends can stretch that much further as I have more time. A 100 mile bike ride is not out of the question on the weekend. I do make it a point to ingest a protein drink right after exercising to stave off as much muscle loss as possible, and on my very long bike rides, I usually bring a couple slices of bread with peanut butter. As far as swimming is concerned, I swim about 2 miles twice a week, but can sometimes hit the pool 3 times a week depending on my schedule at work.

For those that have asked, the calorie deficit is not that large on a daily basis. In fact, I've had some days where I exercise and almost go over my calorie goal. I was just using yesterday's as an example. I would say that my net calories on a typical day range in the four to five hundred calories after taking away calories from cardio.

I mainly asked the question because I am noticing that I am getting stronger in both my swimming and biking, but not in the gym lifting weights. When I look in the mirror, my muscles look more defined and somewhat bigger, but the overall strength has either fallen off or stayed the same as when I started dieting a month ago. Thanks for taking the time to reply. So far there have been some good responses, even with the lack of detail I provided.

First a foremost Kudos to you - I wish I was that fit.

You would probably be best doing a couple of things.

1) Make protein a priority in your diet.

When you are training at the rate you probably are your body will be burning all that glucose in your system as fuel. Down side with burning glucose as fuel is we didn't evolve to use this as our main source and as such we can only store a limit amount.

depending on size and fitness you can store 350 -500grams in your muscles and 100grams in your liver (as glycogen).

once that's gone your body will find alternative sources. Great thing is your body (the liver) does make its own glucose in the form of glycogen thorough the process of gluconeogenesis. It coverts fatty acids from the body into glycogen. The problem is that the liver doesn't care where it gets the fatty acids from so if your not getting enough into your system through dietary protein, the liver will take it from your lean mass.

2) when your training keep your glucose levels refuelled. Prevention is better than cure. As long as you keep refuelling the glucose the body will always take that fuel first.

Good luck with the training.

chani8

Please eat more. As long as you eat enough over the whole week, I think you'll be ok. But it seems you don't. So you better get eating!

Greytfish

What actually is your goal? Avoiding catabolism? Gaining mass? Losing body fat? Gaining strength? Lifting ability? Skill in a aprticular sport?

Your goal will determine you best course of action.

Helloitsdan

I see a ton of people saying to eat more.
I'll follow up with "Eat more protein!"
Calculate 1.7g per pound of Lean Mass.
Spread your protein out during the day into 30g doses.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/01/it-does-matter-how-you-spread-your.html
Why?
Having the added amino acids circulating during the day will signal the body to not break down skeletal muscle for the fuel.

the_dude00

I mainly asked the question because I am noticing that I am getting stronger in both my swimming and biking, but not in the gym lifting weights. When I look in the mirror, my muscles look more defined and somewhat bigger, but the overall strength has either fallen off or stayed the same as when I started dieting a month ago. Thanks for taking the time to reply. So far there have been some good responses, even with the lack of detail I provided.

You can eat more... But regardless your cardio exercises will hurt you performance lifting weights in the gym. I used to run marathons and stopped and nearly instantly 10 pounds of muscle pooped onto my body. I imagine you enjoy biking, swimming, etc so keep doing it, but you have to accept it will hold you back lifting

jonnythan

I see a ton of people saying to eat more.
I'll follow up with "Eat more protein!"
Calculate 1.7g per pound of Lean Mass.
Spread your protein out during the day into 30g doses.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/01/it-does-matter-how-you-spread-your.html
Why?
Having the added amino acids circulating during the day will signal the body to not break down skeletal muscle for the fuel.

Why 1.7?

Greytfish

I mainly asked the question because I am noticing that I am getting stronger in both my swimming and biking, but not in the gym lifting weights. When I look in the mirror, my muscles look more defined and somewhat bigger, but the overall strength has either fallen off or stayed the same as when I started dieting a month ago. Thanks for taking the time to reply. So far there have been some good responses, even with the lack of detail I provided.

You can eat more... But regardless your cardio exercises will hurt you performance lifting weights in the gym. I used to run marathons and stopped and nearly instantly 10 pounds of muscle pooped onto my body. I imagine you enjoy biking, swimming, etc so keep doing it, but you have to accept it will hold you back lifting

Instantly being 5-10 months? Even a young male os only going to build aboit 1-2 lbs. of muscle mass per months. Gains other than that are generally new work causing the muscles to swell and retain more water, or fat gain from eating in a surplus (and/or simply no longer engaging in catabolic activity).

I see a ton of people saying to eat more.
I'll follow up with "Eat more protein!"
Calculate 1.7g per pound of Lean Mass.
Spread your protein out during the day into 30g doses.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/01/it-does-matter-how-you-spread-your.html
Why?
Having the added amino acids circulating during the day will signal the body to not break down skeletal muscle for the fuel.

Why 1.7?

Looks like a cobbling together of the .7g and the 1 gram suggestions and pounds thrown in for good measure. Not fun for the kidneys and probably soem very expensive urine to boot.