Muscle Cannibalism

tennisdude2004

Here's one to get you started.

There's plenty more for those that look! But hey that's just me.

Great point, peoples requirements are heavily dependent on their own situations.

That's why I always recommend people don't take blind advice and research stuff for themselves

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11023001

Greytfish

Here's one to get you started.

There's plenty more for those that look! But hey that's just me.

Great point, peoples requirements are heavily dependent on their own situations.

That's why I always recommend people don't take blind advice and research stuff for themselves

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11023001

Ummmmm...that abstract clearly says 1.6-1.8 vs. 0.8 g/kg

A 200lb man at 1.7g/lb. would consume 340g of protein

A 200lb. man consuming 1.8g/kg would consume 163.

TheEffort

It's called catabolism. http://www.livestrong.com/article/500765-how-to-prevent-catabolism-of-muscle/
Unless you're actually ingesting & digesting your own muscle tissue.

^^^This.

Here's some additional info: http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne17.htm

tennisdude2004

Hey Greytfish,

These guys are suggesting 1.3g of protein per pound of body weight (that's even more than I suggested)!

tennisdude2004

Well maybe not quite as much but at least 1.5 - 1.6 depending on body fat percentage.

Not far of though.

jonnythan

Here's one to get you started.

There's plenty more for those that look! But hey that's just me.

Great point, peoples requirements are heavily dependent on their own situations.

That's why I always recommend people don't take blind advice and research stuff for themselves

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11023001

Yeah that doesn't say anything even remotely close to 1.7 g per lb of lean mass.

Perhaps you should stop talking for the other poster and let him answer the question himself.

Greytfish

I'm hoping it was just a typo

tennisdude2004

I am never one to admit when I'm wrong - but today I'm going to break a habit and hang my head in shame.

I am sorry you are correct and I wrong (there I've said it and yes it's embarrassing and painful).

I've been converting from kilos to pounds and kinda screwed myself up!! Please change everything I have said regarding protein percentages from LB's to Kilos.

Sorry, sorry, sorry.

:happy: :happy: :drinker:

Greytfish

No probelm. I'm a woman. Men admit they're wrong and apologize to me all the time. :laugh: (kidding)

I rather thought it was just a mix-up on your part, that's why I posted the bit of math. Hope it was just a mix-up for the original person posting it as well.

I just would hate for someone to read wrong information and actually try to get that much protein. Unless you're already a large man with a high caloric need, you'd be gulping protein to the exclusion of lots of needed things - and I know people who have done it.

bpotts44

You should be taking either BCAAs during your exercise or maybe whey protein so that you have protein circulating in your system. Also you are over consuming sugar and under consuming fat during your exercise. Try replacing the sugars with MCT oil, whey protein, and superstarch.

tennisdude2004

No probelm. I'm a woman. Men admit they're wrong and apologize to me all the time. :laugh: (kidding)

I rather thought it was just a mix-up on your part, that's why I posted the bit of math. Hope it was just a mix-up for the original person posting it as well.

I just would hate for someone to read wrong information and actually try to get that much protein. Unless you're already a large man with a high caloric need, you'd be gulping protein to the exclusion of lots of needed things - and I know people who have done it.

Agreed, that's why I always suggest people look into things themselves before embarking on things.

I've only just noticed my mistake, for the last couple of years I've been eating about 1 whole cow a week.

jonnythan

You should be taking either BCAAs during your exercise or maybe whey protein so that you have protein circulating in your system. Also you are over consuming sugar and under consuming fat during your exercise. Try replacing the sugars with MCT oil, whey protein, and superstarch.

The last thing I want to consume while performing lengthy, strenuous exercise is fat. Marathon runners don't drink oil while they're running, and for a reason.

Greytfish

Agreed, that's why I always suggest people look into things themselves before embarking on things.

I've only just noticed my mistake, for the last couple of years I've been eating about 1 whole cow a week.

Don't tell the vegans.....

You should be taking either BCAAs during your exercise or maybe whey protein so that you have protein circulating in your system. Also you are over consuming sugar and under consuming fat during your exercise. Try replacing the sugars with MCT oil, whey protein, and superstarch.

The last thing I want to consume while performing lengthy, strenuous exercise is fat. Marathon runners don't drink oil while they're running, and for a reason.

Yeah, fat is not what you want to consume while engaged in cardio endurance activity.

Sarauk2sf

You should be taking either BCAAs during your exercise or maybe whey protein so that you have protein circulating in your system. Also you are over consuming sugar and under consuming fat during your exercise. Try replacing the sugars with MCT oil, whey protein, and superstarch.

How did you come to that conclusion?

sjohnny

You should be taking either BCAAs during your exercise or maybe whey protein so that you have protein circulating in your system. Also you are over consuming sugar and under consuming fat during your exercise. Try replacing the sugars with MCT oil, whey protein, and superstarch.

Ummm No. Sugar is exactly what you need during endurance events. Too much fat will have most people making pit stops.

This is why endurance athletes use GU instead of olive oil packets.

jonnythan

You should be taking either BCAAs during your exercise or maybe whey protein so that you have protein circulating in your system. Also you are over consuming sugar and under consuming fat during your exercise. Try replacing the sugars with MCT oil, whey protein, and superstarch.

Ummm No. Sugar is exactly what you need during endurance events. Too much fat will have most people making pit stops.

This is why endurance athletes use GU instead of olive oil packets.

Same with whey. Trying to digest whey while exercising is.... rather rough. It's good to have whey some time before, or after, exercise, but when I'm two sets into a tennis match I'm not pounding a whey shake. I'm drinking Gatorade and eating a little Gu.

Also, superstarch isn't a thing. It's a brand of sports drink made with corn starch.

FromHereOnOut

I mainly asked the question because I am noticing that I am getting stronger in both my swimming and biking, but not in the gym lifting weights. When I look in the mirror, my muscles look more defined and somewhat bigger, but the overall strength has either fallen off or stayed the same as when I started dieting a month ago.

For more info on why this is happening, research fast twitch vs. slow twitch muscle fibers. Your muscles will lean towards one or the other depending on how you train. If you love your cardio/endurance activities, you'll have to take the hit in strength/power.

Iron_Feline

Holy crap op EAT MORE. I'm a 5"2 woman and I eat 1600 cals a day without all that exercise.

1300 isn't sensible for a man on days when you only do light exercise let alone on a 100 miler. :noway:

Hornsby

subscribing.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Mr_Knight

I would say that my net calories on a typical day range in the four to five hundred calories after taking away calories from cardio.

Well that's a whole lot better!

Whew.

the_dude00

I mainly asked the question because I am noticing that I am getting stronger in both my swimming and biking, but not in the gym lifting weights. When I look in the mirror, my muscles look more defined and somewhat bigger, but the overall strength has either fallen off or stayed the same as when I started dieting a month ago. Thanks for taking the time to reply. So far there have been some good responses, even with the lack of detail I provided.

You can eat more... But regardless your cardio exercises will hurt you performance lifting weights in the gym. I used to run marathons and stopped and nearly instantly 10 pounds of muscle pooped onto my body. I imagine you enjoy biking, swimming, etc so keep doing it, but you have to accept it will hold you back lifting

Instantly being 5-10 months? Even a young male os only going to build aboit 1-2 lbs. of muscle mass per months. Gains other than that are generally new work causing the muscles to swell and retain more water, or fat gain from eating in a surplus (and/or simply no longer engaging in catabolic activity).

I see a ton of people saying to eat more.
I'll follow up with "Eat more protein!"
Calculate 1.7g per pound of Lean Mass.
Spread your protein out during the day into 30g doses.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/01/it-does-matter-how-you-spread-your.html
Why?
Having the added amino acids circulating during the day will signal the body to not break down skeletal muscle for the fuel.

Why 1.7?

Looks like a cobbling together of the .7g and the 1 gram suggestions and pounds thrown in for good measure. Not fun for the kidneys and probably soem very expensive urine to boot.

1.7g of protein per pound of lean mass may seem on the high side for a normally active person (1g is probably a good average), but as the OP is highly active he will need more.

However there is not evidence that too much protein is bad for a healthy kidney. In fact dealing with the metabolic waste from protein is what makes them strong.

There is circumstantial evidence that too much may worsen a kidney with a pre-existing condition, but it certainly won't be the cause of that condition, and will not cause a condition in a health kidney,

Also if you do consume too much protein than you need, all that will happen is the excess will be converted into glucose. Which will either be stored or burnt.

However as the poster of the 1.7g amount was aiming his response to the highly active OP, it's probably fairly accurate.

Well... Instantly was about 2 to 3 months as I remember. Bench went up about 30 pounds or a little more. I hadn't made very much gains lifting weights in 2 years prior and when I greatly reduced cardio the weighting progress for pretty dramatic for 3 to 4 months before leveling off

the_dude00

Meant greatly reduced cardio, and weight lifting performance skyrocketed up...

Basically, I'd never made gains like that except as a noob in my teens, and had been stagnate in making gains lifting weights for a couple years prior to majorly reducing cardio...

richardbigg

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I kept meaning to jump back into the conversation, but it had so much momentum that I didn't want to break it. I must say that posting something in these forums and reading the replies certainly fast tracks your learning curve. I think I've learned more about nutrition over the past two days than I learned the whole year I trained for an ironman. Anyhow, I tried to increase my protein intake yesterday, and almost hit my target for the day, which would be the first time since I started my diet that I was even within 50 grams of the maximum allowed. I am mainly getting my protein from protein shakes at the moment, as I just haven't found a way to ingest substantial amounts of protein without overdoing the cholesterol. I'm just glad I don't have to ingest 340 grams of protein per day :drinker: .

tennisdude2004

Yep soz about post yesterday stating lbs instead of kilos.

Don't sweat the cholesterol intake too much though.

The body naturally produces it's own cholesterol and self regulates itself so if you do ingest too much in your diet the body will compensate by producing less and vice versa.

Cholesterol unfortunately gets a bad wrap for how essential it is for us, however that's a topic for another thread.

Good luck with your training.

Greytfish

Thanks to everyone who has replied. I kept meaning to jump back into the conversation, but it had so much momentum that I didn't want to break it. I must say that posting something in these forums and reading the replies certainly fast tracks your learning curve. I think I've learned more about nutrition over the past two days than I learned the whole year I trained for an ironman. Anyhow, I tried to increase my protein intake yesterday, and almost hit my target for the day, which would be the first time since I started my diet that I was even within 50 grams of the maximum allowed. I am mainly getting my protein from protein shakes at the moment, as I just haven't found a way to ingest substantial amounts of protein without overdoing the cholesterol. I'm just glad I don't have to ingest 340 grams of protein per day :drinker: .

Protein listed by MFP is a target to hit at minumim, not a maximum. If you have it set at the default, you should slide your settings until you get the appropriate number (per the math we went on at at length for a bit). Also, when you post something nutritional in nature, include your height and weight and you'll get more on point advice. Even when we can see your diary we can't see your stats.

If you did an iron man eating as you were, you'll kill it if you start fueling properly.

jonnythan

Protein targets are minimums. Consider a protein powder.

Helloitsdan

I mainly asked the question because I am noticing that I am getting stronger in both my swimming and biking, but not in the gym lifting weights. When I look in the mirror, my muscles look more defined and somewhat bigger, but the overall strength has either fallen off or stayed the same as when I started dieting a month ago. Thanks for taking the time to reply. So far there have been some good responses, even with the lack of detail I provided.

You can eat more... But regardless your cardio exercises will hurt you performance lifting weights in the gym. I used to run marathons and stopped and nearly instantly 10 pounds of muscle pooped onto my body. I imagine you enjoy biking, swimming, etc so keep doing it, but you have to accept it will hold you back lifting

Instantly being 5-10 months? Even a young male os only going to build aboit 1-2 lbs. of muscle mass per months. Gains other than that are generally new work causing the muscles to swell and retain more water, or fat gain from eating in a surplus (and/or simply no longer engaging in catabolic activity).

I see a ton of people saying to eat more.
I'll follow up with "Eat more protein!"
Calculate 1.7g per pound of Lean Mass.
Spread your protein out during the day into 30g doses.
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2014/01/it-does-matter-how-you-spread-your.html
Why?
Having the added amino acids circulating during the day will signal the body to not break down skeletal muscle for the fuel.

Why 1.7?

Looks like a cobbling together of the .7g and the 1 gram suggestions and pounds thrown in for good measure. Not fun for the kidneys and probably soem very expensive urine to boot.

1.7g of protein per pound of lean mass may seem on the high side for a normally active person (1g is probably a good average), but as the OP is highly active he will need more.

However there is not evidence that too much protein is bad for a healthy kidney. In fact dealing with the metabolic waste from protein is what makes them strong.

There is circumstantial evidence that too much may worsen a kidney with a pre-existing condition, but it certainly won't be the cause of that condition, and will not cause a condition in a health kidney,

Also if you do consume too much protein than you need, all that will happen is the excess will be converted into glucose. Which will either be stored or burnt.

However as the poster of the 1.7g amount was aiming his response to the highly active OP, it's probably fairly accurate.

Well... Instantly was about 2 to 3 months as I remember. Bench went up about 30 pounds or a little more. I hadn't made very much gains lifting weights in 2 years prior and when I greatly reduced cardio the weighting progress for pretty dramatic for 3 to 4 months before leveling off

I'm just simply passing on analysis from Dr Brad Shoenfeld and Alan Aragon http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-53.pdf
TL/DR version of this paper is that the slight advantage of timing isn't really necessary, but a larger jump in hypertrophy was seen between 1g/#LBW vs 1.7g.

My friend Carl in a interview with Dr Shoenfeld on his findings with this study.
http://www.superhumanradio.com/shr-1320-the-effects-of-protein-timing-on-strength-and-hypertrophy-plus-burn-the-fat-feed-the-muscle.html

Hope this helps!

erickirb

I'm just simply passing on analysis from Dr Brad Shoenfeld and Alan Aragon http://www.jissn.com/content/pdf/1550-2783-10-53.pdf
TL/DR version of this paper is that the slight advantage of timing isn't really necessary, but a larger jump in hypertrophy was seen between 1g/#LBW vs 1.7g.

This study again says 1.7grams per KG of LBM, or close to 0.8 grams per lb of lean body mass

Helloitsdan

*facepalm* Christ it's early!
You are correct!