Deadlift and Overhead Press - Some Lessons Learned
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Shoulder blades are back. You should have thoracic extension. (Upper back curve. Which helps maintain your natural lower back curve). Once the lifter does is exaggerated motion, you have them push their shoulders out... It engages your back muscles, protects your lower back and creates a shorter bar path. Your shoulders should be over the bar and forward in the shoulder socket. The picture on the first page is correct, but looks like her hips are slightly low, she has incorrect shoes, and her head should be looking more down, to keep her spine in a neutral position.
I usually tell people to think "big chest". Lifters with good posture won't have a problem...the problem is not many Americans have good posture.0 -
Shoulder blades are back. You should have thoracic extension. (Upper back curve. Which helps maintain your natural lower back curve). Once the lifter does is exaggerated motion, you have them push their shoulders out... It engages your back muscles, protects your lower back and creates a shorter bar path. Your shoulders should be over the bar and forward in the shoulder socket. The picture on the first page is correct, but looks like her hips are slightly low, she has incorrect shoes, and her head should be looking more down, to keep her spine in a neutral position.
I usually tell people to think "big chest". Lifters with good posture won't have a problem...the problem is not many Americans have good posture.
See... now someone is telling me to have my shoulder blades back... I dunno who to listen to anymore!0 -
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Shoulder blades are back. You should have thoracic extension. (Upper back curve. Which helps maintain your natural lower back curve). Once the lifter does is exaggerated motion, you have them push their shoulders out... It engages your back muscles, protects your lower back and creates a shorter bar path. Your shoulders should be over the bar and forward in the shoulder socket. The picture on the first page is correct, but looks like her hips are slightly low, she has incorrect shoes, and her head should be looking more down, to keep her spine in a neutral position.
I usually tell people to think "big chest". Lifters with good posture won't have a problem...the problem is not many Americans have good posture.
This^^^^
I agree with the shoes, not flat enough.0 -
omg i'm going crazy.
I'm going to print this entire post out and bring it to the trainer to read
I can spend hours reading this stuff, but without having a trainer watching me in real life, there really is no point, because I don't really understand what you guys mean to be honest.
I'm just going to bring this post to the gym, because the trainer would probably know what you guys mean, and thus, would be able to apply it to my form in real life0 -
This content has been removed.
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omg i'm going crazy.
I'm going to print this entire post out and bring it to the trainer to read
I can spend hours reading this stuff, but without having a trainer watching me in real life, there really is no point, because I don't really understand what you guys mean to be honest.
I'm just going to bring this post to the gym, because the trainer would probably know what you guys mean, and thus, would be able to apply it to my form in real life
Probably a good idead bud! Sorry if we made this post confusing. Deadlift is a very technical lift, people have different views, it happens. Try to not let it get you down. I've had to re-construct my deadlift form many times, because I wasn't happy with it.0 -
omg i'm going crazy.
I'm going to print this entire post out and bring it to the trainer to read
I can spend hours reading this stuff, but without having a trainer watching me in real life, there really is no point, because I don't really understand what you guys mean to be honest.
I'm just going to bring this post to the gym, because the trainer would probably know what you guys mean, and thus, would be able to apply it to my form in real life
Meh. Just do what he says. Don't worry about us.
I respect your guy's opinions, thats why I made this post. But I don't feel that I am experienced enough to be able to understand you guys fully and be able to know how to apply this to myself when I am at the gym. It's not you guys, its me.0 -
One way to find the correct starting position for deadlift is by loading up a very heavy bar (like 1.5 times body weight or more) and then getting into position and putting some upward force on it as if you're going to lift, but not so much as to actually lift the bar off the ground. Once you are applying a decent amount of lift, your body will align itself with the bar in the way that best matches your proportions. (The lengths of your upper and lower legs, torso, and arms all affect the ideal setup for you.)
So for example, if your shoulders are too far forward or backward, when you start to pull, the bar is heavy enough that your body will actually move until your center of mass is directly above the bar.
Also you can find where to put the bar in relation to the 'center' of your feet by holding it at the top position as if you're finished with the lift. At that point it is directly above the proper spot.0 -
Shoulder blades are back. You should have thoracic extension. (Upper back curve. Which helps maintain your natural lower back curve). Once the lifter does is exaggerated motion, you have them push their shoulders out... It engages your back muscles, protects your lower back and creates a shorter bar path. Your shoulders should be over the bar and forward in the shoulder socket. The picture on the first page is correct, but looks like her hips are slightly low, she has incorrect shoes, and her head should be looking more down, to keep her spine in a neutral position.
I usually tell people to think "big chest". Lifters with good posture won't have a problem...the problem is not many Americans have good posture.
See... now someone is telling me to have my shoulder blades back... I dunno who to listen to anymore!
He said back, not pinched back. There's a difference. Again, I think he's saying, not forward. Really, he means neutral, I think. It's not pinched back shoulder blades. It's really just neutral flat back.
The girl in the picture isn't quite right. I think she's too close to the bar. She needs to scuffle her feet back a bit. But, her upper body is in the right position, but her legs should have more angle. I wouldn't know how to correct her. I'm not a trainer. But, something is slightly off.
After a few sessions, the shoulders blades and back portion is left out (unless person is really rounding badly). You should have normal posture - not normal American posture, with shoulders rolled forward.
TO OP, I recommend reading starting strength or watching the Elliot Hulse series on deadlift ( about an hour).0 -
That's what they all say!!:sad:I respect your guy's opinions, thats why I made this post. But I don't feel that I am experienced enough to be able to understand you guys fully and be able to know how to apply this to myself when I am at the gym.It's not you guys, its me.
No problems, hope it goes well and keep us updated!0 -
Shoulder blades are back. You should have thoracic extension. (Upper back curve. Which helps maintain your natural lower back curve). Once the lifter does is exaggerated motion, you have them push their shoulders out... It engages your back muscles, protects your lower back and creates a shorter bar path. Your shoulders should be over the bar and forward in the shoulder socket. The picture on the first page is correct, but looks like her hips are slightly low, she has incorrect shoes, and her head should be looking more down, to keep her spine in a neutral position.
I usually tell people to think "big chest". Lifters with good posture won't have a problem...the problem is not many Americans have good posture.
See... now someone is telling me to have my shoulder blades back... I dunno who to listen to anymore!
He said back, not pinched back. There's a difference. Again, I think he's saying, not forward. Really, he means neutral, I think. It's not pinched back shoulder blades. It's really just neutral flat back.
The girl in the picture isn't quite right. I think she's too close to the bar. She needs to scuffle her feet back a bit. But, her upper body is in the right position, but her legs should have more angle. I wouldn't know how to correct her. I'm not a trainer. But, something is slightly off.
After a few sessions, the shoulders blades and back portion is left out (unless person is really rounding badly). You should have normal posture - not normal American posture, with shoulders rolled forward.
TO OP, I recommend reading starting strength or watching the Elliot Hulse series on deadlift ( about an hour).
Beat me to it! I was about to mention Elliot Husle video's on deadlift. He also explains the movement from the top, going back to the ground, which I found very helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFnwEsqJABU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5qcN_w_m8c 0 -
OP, chalk me up in the do NOT squeeze your shoulder blades together camp. Haha. As danimalkeys said, when you squeeze your shoulder blades together, you have to get down lower to the floor to reach the bar. Or, if you are a Rippetoe fan, which someone suggested you read, he says something like: do not squeeze your shoulder blades together in the back - scapular adduction will pull you down closer to the bar in a position that you cannot maintain when lifting heavier weight because that's not where your shoulder blades actually stay during a pull.0
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UPDATE:
A trainer at the gym today confirmed the fact that you shouldn't squeeze your shoulder blades together; they should be neutral though, not hunched over. He watched me deadlift, and said that I should push back with my hips, while at the same time bending forward with my body; a simultaneous motion. He said that I was just focusing on pushing back with my hips, which was too much like doing a squat. Instead, imagine your body as a plank, falling forward, while pushing back with your hips, and naturally... your knees will bend. I incorporated his advice, and he said that I got it! No rounded back, no nothing! So it's time to start gradually increasing the weight now! Yay!
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UPDATE:
Had a different trainer watch me deadlift today. He had some good advice:
1. Start with barbell over the middle of your feet; when you bend with your knees, they should make contact with the barbell.
2. Had me incorporate a wide grip (grip just outside the small rings, on the side closer to the middle).
3. To pick up barbell from ground, bend over, grip it hard, and imagine yourself being one with the bar; humping it. Shove your pelvis forward, maintain straight back.
4. Do what the trainer told me to do last time - move your *kitten* back while simultaneously leaning forward.
5. When the bar hits the ground, rest it there for a second and prepare to do the ascending lift.
6. To do the ascending lift, squeeze your glutes, and explode with your hips forward FAST.
7. When doing this, make sure your head is not facing up, but instead, is neutral and looking forward. The trainer said my head was looking up, and this was causing strain in my neck. I laughed because it was true: I was imagining using my head to pull the weight up!
The trainer also confirmed that last time, he told me to pinch my shoulder blades back because I had them hunched forward. So throughout today's workout, I made sure to pinch my shoulder blades back a bit before proceeding, but I think as I started doing the exercise, I forgot about it. The trainer didn't say my back was rounded, so I'm trusting it wasn't. Pinching shoulders back at the beginning seemed to have helped!
Today, the heaviest I did was 35 lbs on each side with good form (but could only do 3 reps).0 -
Glad you are making progress and have some trainers to help you with your form. That is awesome.
I think the shoulder blades back thing was a cue to get you to a normal position. Glad that is sorted out for you
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I missed the part about just starting with the bar, too! I did a mixture of stacking plates and RDL's, until I was able to use the "big girl plates". Thank goodness I don't have to stack plates anymore!!! :happy:
Is this just down to an individual's hamstring length? If you can place your palms flat on the floor with straight legs would you still stack the bar off the floor?0 -
Also forgot to add that the bar should be scraping against your knees pretty much the entire time.0
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Just video your top sets, upload them to youtube and post a link somewhere where you'll get an opinion or two.
r/weightroom on reddit has a "form check friday". There's some experienced lifters around there sometimes... if you get some bad advice, a bunch of people will be along to tell them why they're wrong in about 30s! Perhaps it might be worth a go?0 -
shinsAlso forgot to add that the bar should be scraping against your knees pretty much the entire time.
=P0 -
Bump for reference in future0
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That's not a Deadlift at all. What you're doing is called a rack pull.Thanks everyone for your replies!
Yes, I got to remember to keep the bar almost touching my legs throughout the whole movement of deadlift. And also to start by having the bar directly over the middle of my foot.
And since I started with an empty barbell on the rack, I didn't start from the ground, so I was like to the trainer: "so I'm doing romanian deadlifts." And he was like no: "you're still doing conventional deadlifts, just not resting the weight on the ground."0 -
That's not a Deadlift at all. What you're doing is called a rack pull.Thanks everyone for your replies!
Yes, I got to remember to keep the bar almost touching my legs throughout the whole movement of deadlift. And also to start by having the bar directly over the middle of my foot.
And since I started with an empty barbell on the rack, I didn't start from the ground, so I was like to the trainer: "so I'm doing romanian deadlifts." And he was like no: "you're still doing conventional deadlifts, just not resting the weight on the ground."
In a technical sense, yes, it's a rack pull, but if the rails are set to simulate the height of the bar as if you had 45lb plates on it, then it's pretty close to a deadlift.0 -
For overhead press I think you're better off experimenting with grip and finding the strongest position for yourself.
For deadlift pulling your shoulder blades back will limit how much you can lift. You won't find too many powerlifters doing that and definitely not the ones with the biggest deadlifts.
Agree! Don't pull your shoulders back, they should be over the bar. Your grip, depends on how far you feet are apart, and not the bar. Everything should be as closed as possible, bar to the shin, hands right outside of your leg. You want the shortest trip vertical as possible.
Also, think of deadlifts as a pushing exercise and not pulling. The bar is there for leverage and your pushing the floor away from you.
Steve just wrote what I would have. I trained with a former Danish national strength coach last month, and the "cue" that worked for me was to think about pushing the bar back through your shins on the up. That upward movement is "straight" and your knees are moving back out of the way, not the bar going out and around the knees.
If that makes sense?0 -
bump0
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Surely, if your shoulders and shoulder blades are not dropped back, you are rounding the spine and not engaging the rhomboid muscles so the full stress is on the lower spine, which is not good for the spine?0
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UPDATE:
Had a different trainer watch me deadlift today. He had some good advice:
<SNIP>
Today, the heaviest I did was 35 lbs on each side with good form (but could only do 3 reps).
Congratulations on your progress and thank you for continuing to update the thread and show that you're willing to not only solicit advice, but incorporate some of it, make "tweaks" as necessary, and keep going! I predict more success in your future. :flowerforyou:0 -
For deadlift pulling your shoulder blades back will limit how much you can lift. You won't find too many powerlifters doing that and definitely not the ones with the biggest deadlifts.
actually it's a good cue and yes you will.
He;s not saying to shrug your shoulders or anything like that it's in relation to activating the lats and keeping a tight upper back.
mike tuchscherer explaining
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm7ZbgjZklEAs such, while I still feel that stiffening the upper back and activating the lats is integral for improving the deadlift, I've modified my approach. Slightly.
Trying to actively pinch the shoulder blades together while deadlifting just feels awkward. But when I use the phrase, "lock your shoulder blades into place and think about putting them in your back pocket," it's like magic, and people get it.
As a result, many of the benefits that I described above come into play. You shorten the lever arm length from the shoulder to the lumbar spine, and you also engage the lats to help protect the lumbar spine and the SI joint. But as a general observation, the pull just "feels" stronger.
Try it out on your next deadlifting day. I can almost guarantee you'll notice an improvement.
http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/much_ado_about_deadlifting0 -
For overhead press I think you're better off experimenting with grip and finding the strongest position for yourself.
For deadlift pulling your shoulder blades back will limit how much you can lift. You won't find too many powerlifters doing that and definitely not the ones with the biggest deadlifts.
Agree! Don't pull your shoulders back, they should be over the bar. Your grip, depends on how far you feet are apart, and not the bar. Everything should be as closed as possible, bar to the shin, hands right outside of your leg. You want the shortest trip vertical as possible.
Also, think of deadlifts as a pushing exercise and not pulling. The bar is there for leverage and your pushing the floor away from you.
Steve just wrote what I would have. I trained with a former Danish national strength coach last month, and the "cue" that worked for me was to think about pushing the bar back through your shins on the up. That upward movement is "straight" and your knees are moving back out of the way, not the bar going out and around the knees.
If that makes sense?
Yup makes total sense. The deadlift should be approached as a push movement and not a pull exercises.0
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