Why "clean eating" is a myth
Replies
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Can we agree that avoiding lung cancer is "good for you"?
Not always.
If I can halve my chances of getting lung cancer, that's good, right?
Well.... what if doing so raises my chances of getting heart disease?
Is it good for me then?
Can you show me the science that links non-smoking to higher risk of heart disease?
That's a big "what if". What if I was outside on a smoke break when the building burned down. Better keep smoking, just to be on the safe side.
What if I give rats a cancer causing agent then feed them a high protein diet or low protein diet for my study. So then the rats with a high protein diet get liver cancer and hooray! I can say the low protein diet is "good for you" because it prevents cancer...
Or I could also tell you that the rats who got cancer survived, but the other rats died because their livers died and no cells, cancer or healthy were able to grow.0 -
that anti-angiogenic foods, herbs and spices may possibly be effective at preventing and treating cancer.
according to science.
I accept that, and some of these studies seem to suggest that certain chemicals, extracts, or spices may have that property, sure.
Most of the studies linked are cross-sectional observational studies, which are not very compelling other than providing avenues to research more in-depth. But, yeah, the hypothesis that certain substances found in certain plants can help prevent and/or treat cancer certainly has merit.
so... back to the .000001% argument?0 -
and here-in lies the problem.
in the 1800s it was scientifically shown by a preponderance of evidence that leeching was good for you.
Actually Leeches are still used in modern medicine and maggots...Trauma doctors at Johns Hopkins, the University of Maryland and other U.S. hospitals routinely use leeches as a temporary measure to keep blood flowing as new vessels grow in a damaged area. The animals kept blood moving in and out of a new skin flap sewn onto Miller's foot. They also can get blood flowing to amputated digits that are reattached. And because the leeches' saliva has a natural anesthetic, some doctors now are looking to use them to ease pain.
On the topic of "clean eating" this will never go away it doesn't matter what anyone says or does. I has the same discussion with 4 other people this past week...3 disagreed with me that "clean eating" helps you lose weight faster etc (husband didn't disagree me....hehe) and that the chemicals etc in our food is gonna end up killing us etc.
I reminded them of the twinkie diet, the teacher who ate McDonalds, lost weight and has been health markers and it was rejected without thought...
Anyone who eats a banana from a store is eating "dirty", they have been modfied to get rid of the seeds. The modern banana will become extinct if man was not around to make them happen.
"Junk food" is subjective. I do not consider ice cream junk. I do not consider a Grilled chicken burger from McDonalds junk, others do....
I've had people send me friend requests because they see my success, look at my diary and realize "Hey I don't have to give up chocolate, fruit loops, fast food etc to lose weight and be healthy."
If it works for you great, it doesn't work for most as too many restrictions lead to binges which lead to guilt and eventually giving up and going back to habits that cause the weight gain.
I will continue to "discuss" eating all foods without restrictions and the fact it is a great lifestyle that allows me to be healthy, lose the excess weight and still not feel deprived. I wont force my opinion on them tho...if they wish to live a life of deprivation and are happy with it...great.0 -
I try to eat foods that contain ingredients that are for my benefit rather than the benefit of the food seller’s profitability. By that I mean I look for minimally added ingredients or added ingredients that make it better for my consumption, not solely to prolong it's shelf-life. I’m not sure if that is “clean eating” per se, just a general skepticism for and aversion to industrialized food additives and certain processing methods.0
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Can't we all just agree that bananas, cucumbers, zucchini, and other wang shaped foods are "dirty foods?"0
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that anti-angiogenic foods, herbs and spices may possibly be effective at preventing and treating cancer.
according to science.
I accept that, and some of these studies seem to suggest that certain chemicals, extracts, or spices may have that property, sure.
Most of the studies linked are cross-sectional observational studies, which are not very compelling other than providing avenues to research more in-depth. But, yeah, the hypothesis that certain substances found in certain plants can help prevent and/or treat cancer certainly has merit.
so... back to the .000001% argument?
Um. No. Maybe one of the spices evaluated to possibly help prevent cancer also causes atherosclerosis? Just because a particular substance has been shown to possibly have cancer-preventing properties doesn't mean that it is good for you, or that it doesn't have some other negative effect.
The .0000001% claim is that you might as well consume a lot of plants on the basis that it might be healthier? Well, it might also be less healthy. We don't know. Also, consuming a lot of plants is perfectly compatible with IIFYM anyway.
The other side of the coin is eliminating specific things. Does eliminating things necessarily improve your overall health? Dunno. Maybe. Maybe not.0 -
and here-in lies the problem.
in the 1800s it was scientifically shown by a preponderance of evidence that leeching was good for you.
Actually Leeches are still used in modern medicine and maggots...Trauma doctors at Johns Hopkins, the University of Maryland and other U.S. hospitals routinely use leeches as a temporary measure to keep blood flowing as new vessels grow in a damaged area. The animals kept blood moving in and out of a new skin flap sewn onto Miller's foot. They also can get blood flowing to amputated digits that are reattached. And because the leeches' saliva has a natural anesthetic, some doctors now are looking to use them to ease pain.
On the topic of "clean eating" this will never go away it doesn't matter what anyone says or does. I has the same discussion with 4 other people this past week...3 disagreed with me that "clean eating" helps you lose weight faster etc (husband didn't disagree me....hehe) and that the chemicals etc in our food is gonna end up killing us etc.
I reminded them of the twinkie diet, the teacher who ate McDonalds, lost weight and has been health markers and it was rejected without thought...
Anyone who eats a banana from a store is eating "dirty", they have been modfied to get rid of the seeds. The modern banana will become extinct if man was not around to make them happen.
"Junk food" is subjective. I do not consider ice cream junk. I do not consider a Grilled chicken burger from McDonalds junk, others do....
I've had people send me friend requests because they see my success, look at my diary and realize "Hey I don't have to give up chocolate, fruit loops, fast food etc to lose weight and be healthy."
If it works for you great, it doesn't work for most as too many restrictions lead to binges which lead to guilt and eventually giving up and going back to habits that cause the weight gain.
I will continue to "discuss" eating all foods without restrictions and the fact it is a great lifestyle that allows me to be healthy, lose the excess weight and still not feel deprived. I wont force my opinion on them tho...if they wish to live a life of deprivation and are happy with it...great.
I want to be very clear. Clean eating has no greater measurable effect on weight loss than just counting calories.
But weight =/= health. They are two very different concepts, and while the one may effect the other, weight is not the be all, end all in health, and that's where "clean eating" and nutrition come in.0 -
While I generally like impruvism and adhere to the global idea that "clean eating" is myth I find statements like "There is no evidence ____" to be generally misleading and incoherent.
There is clear evidence that certain types of food ARE unhealthy - we have pasteurization, testing and a variety of treatments, processes and rules to avoid them. Any statement that ignores those basic ideas is laughable. Afterwards its a question of educated risks.
I think if it's unhealthy, then it isn't food, except in cases where something is adulterated or otherwise spoiled. But suggesting that food is unhealthy, without putting it in context, is just wrong.0 -
that anti-angiogenic foods, herbs and spices may possibly be effective at preventing and treating cancer.
according to science.
I accept that, and some of these studies seem to suggest that certain chemicals, extracts, or spices may have that property, sure.
Most of the studies linked are cross-sectional observational studies, which are not very compelling other than providing avenues to research more in-depth. But, yeah, the hypothesis that certain substances found in certain plants can help prevent and/or treat cancer certainly has merit.
so... back to the .000001% argument?
Um. No. Maybe one of the spices evaluated to possibly help prevent cancer also causes atherosclerosis? Just because a particular substance has been shown to possibly have cancer-preventing properties doesn't mean that it is good for you, or that it doesn't have some other negative effect.
The .0000001% claim is that you might as well consume a lot of plants on the basis that it might be healthier? Well, it might also be less healthy. We don't know. Also, consuming a lot of plants is perfectly compatible with IIFYM anyway.
The other side of the coin is eliminating specific things. Does eliminating things necessarily improve your overall health? Dunno. Maybe. Maybe not.
Dude I've never been against true IIFYM - I've been against YOUR fast food version of it.
But you're right. You just hit the nail on the head. We don't KNOW. But we do know that certain plant products can help reduce risk of cancer. So you ignoring that scientific evidence on the grounds of "we don't know what problems they might cause" is EXACTLY the same as me ignoring YOUR scientific evidence that eating McDonalds doesn't cause any problems as long as you hit your macros. WE. DON'T. KNOW.
So you can drop the superiority act - we're on the exact same page, we've just chosen to take opposite sides.0 -
I've got to say: who cares?
If you want to eat IIFYM or vegan or paleo or (whatever your interpretation of) clean, or whatever. Why not?
It's all personal preference, at the end of the day. As long as you're eating enough to fuel your activity and keep you healthy, knock yourself out.
What I don't like is when people make a religion out of it (and all of the various "groups" mentioned above have their judgemental arseholes). But people have got to have something to ***** and argue about....
+1
Don't tell me what to eat, and I'll extend to you the same courtesy. And please don't hire some bureaucrats to make me a criminal for what I may choose to eat. That chit just pisses me off!0 -
I've got to say: who cares?
If you want to eat IIFYM or vegan or paleo or (whatever your interpretation of) clean, or whatever. Why not?
It's all personal preference, at the end of the day. As long as you're eating enough to fuel your activity and keep you healthy, knock yourself out.
What I don't like is when people make a religion out of it (and all of the various "groups" mentioned above have their judgemental arseholes). But people have got to have something to ***** and argue about....
+1
Don't tell me what to eat, and I'll extend to you the same courtesy. And please don't hire some bureaucrats to make me a criminal for what I may choose to eat. That chit just pisses me off!
Now THERE'S the sense of humor! This post is laughable. You do nothing but criticize others' food choices. lol (see the paleo thread going on right now!)0 -
Um. No. Maybe one of the spices evaluated to possibly help prevent cancer also causes atherosclerosis? Just because a particular substance has been shown to possibly have cancer-preventing properties doesn't mean that it is good for you, or that it doesn't have some other negative effect.
Okay. Relate that back to the topic a hand (which I assume we're still talking about?) What is the observed health issue that you are concerned someone will experience if they chose to "eat clean".0 -
Dude I've never been against true IIFYM - I've been against YOUR fast food version of it.
But you're right. You just hit the nail on the head. We don't KNOW. But we do know that certain plant products can help reduce risk of cancer. So you ignoring that scientific evidence on the grounds of "we don't know what problems they might cause" is EXACTLY the same as me ignoring YOUR scientific evidence that eating McDonalds doesn't cause any problems as long as you hit your macros. WE. DON'T. KNOW.
So you can drop the superiority act - we're on the exact same page, we've just chosen to take opposite sides.
The difference is that I'm not telling people to eat McDonald's or to not eat "clean" food.
I'm telling people to base their food decisions on nutrients, taste, satisfaction, convenience, etc.
You're 100% absolutely right in that "WE. DON'T. KNOW."
We're not on the same page. You're rejecting certain foods because you imagine they might cause some health issue, even though there's no data to support that. I'm not rejecting certain foods.0 -
Okay. Relate that back to the topic a hand (which I assume we're still talking about?) What is the observed health issue that you are concerned someone will experience if they chose to "eat clean".
I don't recall saying that there was some observed health issue that I am concerned someone will experience if they chose to "eat clean."0 -
I really wish we would stop with this crap. Just eat the goddamn food, stay within your calories, hit your macros, and be ****ing happy. Jesus Christ with this *kitten*.
I'll drink to that! :drinker:
:laugh: :smokin:0 -
I really wish we would stop with this crap. Just eat the goddamn food, stay within your calories, hit your macros, and be ****ing happy. Jesus Christ with this *kitten*.
I'll drink to that! :drinker:
:laugh: :smokin:
But only organic gluten free wine I hope.0 -
Okay. Relate that back to the topic a hand (which I assume we're still talking about?) What is the observed health issue that you are concerned someone will experience if they chose to "eat clean".
I don't recall saying that there was some observed health issue that I am concerned someone will experience if they chose to "eat clean."
Well said. Take away for the day - if you want to "eat clean", knock yourself out. There's no reason not to give it a shot.0 -
Okay. Relate that back to the topic a hand (which I assume we're still talking about?) What is the observed health issue that you are concerned someone will experience if they chose to "eat clean".
I don't recall saying that there was some observed health issue that I am concerned someone will experience if they chose to "eat clean."
Well said. Take away for the day - if you want to "eat clean", knock yourself out. There's no reason not to give it a shot.
Unless there is a reason, like "I really love Chalupas and still want to eat them regularly."0 -
I've got to say: who cares?
If you want to eat IIFYM or vegan or paleo or (whatever your interpretation of) clean, or whatever. Why not?
It's all personal preference, at the end of the day. As long as you're eating enough to fuel your activity and keep you healthy, knock yourself out.
What I don't like is when people make a religion out of it (and all of the various "groups" mentioned above have their judgemental arseholes). But people have got to have something to ***** and argue about....
+1
Don't tell me what to eat, and I'll extend to you the same courtesy. And please don't hire some bureaucrats to make me a criminal for what I may choose to eat. That chit just pisses me off!
Now THERE'S the sense of humor! This post is laughable. You do nothing but criticize others' food choices. lol (see the paleo thread going on right now!)
To be fair, questioning someone's food choices is not the same as telling someone what to eat.
Eta a more gentle tone0 -
and here-in lies the problem.
in the 1800s it was scientifically shown by a preponderance of evidence that leeching was good for you.
Actually Leeches are still used in modern medicine and maggots...Trauma doctors at Johns Hopkins, the University of Maryland and other U.S. hospitals routinely use leeches as a temporary measure to keep blood flowing as new vessels grow in a damaged area. The animals kept blood moving in and out of a new skin flap sewn onto Miller's foot. They also can get blood flowing to amputated digits that are reattached. And because the leeches' saliva has a natural anesthetic, some doctors now are looking to use them to ease pain.
On the topic of "clean eating" this will never go away it doesn't matter what anyone says or does. I has the same discussion with 4 other people this past week...3 disagreed with me that "clean eating" helps you lose weight faster etc (husband didn't disagree me....hehe) and that the chemicals etc in our food is gonna end up killing us etc.
I reminded them of the twinkie diet, the teacher who ate McDonalds, lost weight and has been health markers and it was rejected without thought...
Anyone who eats a banana from a store is eating "dirty", they have been modfied to get rid of the seeds. The modern banana will become extinct if man was not around to make them happen.
"Junk food" is subjective. I do not consider ice cream junk. I do not consider a Grilled chicken burger from McDonalds junk, others do....
I've had people send me friend requests because they see my success, look at my diary and realize "Hey I don't have to give up chocolate, fruit loops, fast food etc to lose weight and be healthy."
If it works for you great, it doesn't work for most as too many restrictions lead to binges which lead to guilt and eventually giving up and going back to habits that cause the weight gain.
I will continue to "discuss" eating all foods without restrictions and the fact it is a great lifestyle that allows me to be healthy, lose the excess weight and still not feel deprived. I wont force my opinion on them tho...if they wish to live a life of deprivation and are happy with it...great.
I want to be very clear. Clean eating has no greater measurable effect on weight loss than just counting calories.
But weight =/= health. They are two very different concepts, and while the one may effect the other, weight is not the be all, end all in health, and that's where "clean eating" and nutrition come in.
But in reality the health argument isn't really there either. How can ice cream be considered "unhealthy" except when eaten in excess? To much broccoli is not healthy either...I mean if I eat too many carrots or grapes I am in agony and not from gas...it's my kidneys that hurt..figure that one out.
"Clean eating" <> healthy
Moderation of all intake = healthy
Nutrition as long as everything is taken into consideration is the most important. But take those who eat "clean" and avoid fats...that is not healthy either. There are people who eat only "clean veggies" and are missing significant nutrients from meat and in turn have children born with health issues.
This is why "clean eating" is not the end all be all of nutrition...
PS a grilled chicken burger from McDonalds is nutrient dense and full of protien, fats and with the side salad is an excellant choice for lunch for all things...nutrition and calorie counting and macro counts.
Add a couple bacon cheese burgers without buns to it and bam...meat medaly.0 -
To be fair, mocking someone's misguided food ideologies is not the same!e as telling someone what to eat.
That's a good point. However, mocking someone's ideologies (as opposed to logically explaining another point of view) is a personal attack, which is not only against forum rules, it's just being a jerk.0 -
Lol you caught that before I edited it to sound nicer. True that!To be fair, mocking someone's misguided food ideologies is not the same!e as telling someone what to eat.
That's a good point. However, mocking someone's ideologies (as opposed to logically explaining another point of view) is a personal attack, which is not only against forum rules, it's just being a jerk.0 -
Lol you caught that before I edited it to sound nicer. True that!To be fair, mocking someone's misguided food ideologies is not the same!e as telling someone what to eat.
That's a good point. However, mocking someone's ideologies (as opposed to logically explaining another point of view) is a personal attack, which is not only against forum rules, it's just being a jerk.
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I've got to say: who cares?
If you want to eat IIFYM or vegan or paleo or (whatever your interpretation of) clean, or whatever. Why not?
It's all personal preference, at the end of the day. As long as you're eating enough to fuel your activity and keep you healthy, knock yourself out.
What I don't like is when people make a religion out of it (and all of the various "groups" mentioned above have their judgemental arseholes). But people have got to have something to ***** and argue about....
+1
Don't tell me what to eat, and I'll extend to you the same courtesy. And please don't hire some bureaucrats to make me a criminal for what I may choose to eat. That chit just pisses me off!
Now THERE'S the sense of humor! This post is laughable. You do nothing but criticize others' food choices. lol (see the paleo thread going on right now!)
No, I criticized *you* for calling usedtobehusky "bitter" when she stated she was amused.
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Unless there is a reason, like "I really love Chalupas and still want to eat them regularly."
[/quote]
I don't know what you are talking about, because here in Mexico Chalupas are 100% clean/natural/whole foods and that is why I enjoy them and other botanas often.....yay !0 -
Unless there is a reason, like "I really love Chalupas and still want to eat them regularly."
I don't know what you are talking about, because here in Mexico Chalupas are 100% clean/natural/whole foods and that is why I enjoy them and other botanas often.....yay !
I honestly didn't know chalupas were an actual thing. I figured it was some word Taco Bell made up that sounded vaguely like a Mexican food :laugh:
You get the idea though. "I really really like a lot of foods that are not considered clean, see no reason to cut them out, and will probably have compliance issues if I try" is a good enough reason for many people not to "try" eating clean.0 -
How in the world is a chalupa a whole food? An apple is a whole food.Unless there is a reason, like "I really love Chalupas and still want to eat them regularly."
I don't know what you are talking about, because here in Mexico Chalupas are 100% clean/natural/whole foods and that is why I enjoy them and other botanas often.....yay !
ETA. Realizing I've had it wrong all along. *going to buy chalupas for lunch*0 -
This is one aspect that I think confuses people. Grind corn and toast it to make a cup then fill with ingredients of your choice, normally recognizable like pork, chicken peppers, cilantro......so the argument is because the corn was ground, normally mortar and pestle it's no longer a whole food but some concoction that is somehow less than the sum of it's parts or something to that thought process.
How in the world is a chalupa a whole food? An apple is a whole food.Unless there is a reason, like "I really love Chalupas and still want to eat them regularly."
I don't know what you are talking about, because here in Mexico Chalupas are 100% clean/natural/whole foods and that is why I enjoy them and other botanas often.....yay !0 -
You get the idea though. "I really really like a lot of foods that are not considered clean, see no reason to cut them out, and will probably have compliance issues if I try" is a good enough reason for many people not to "try" eating clean.
Good enough reason for me. And quite possibly the most reasonable post I've ever seen you contribute to this form. Thank you.0 -
This is one aspect that I think confuses people. Grind corn and toast it to make a cup then fill with ingredients of your choice, normally recognizable like pork, chicken peppers, cilantro......so the argument is because the corn was ground, normally mortar and pestle it's no longer a whole food but some concoction that is somehow less than the sum of it's parts or something to that thought process.
How in the world is a chalupa a whole food? An apple is a whole food.Unless there is a reason, like "I really love Chalupas and still want to eat them regularly."
I don't know what you are talking about, because here in Mexico Chalupas are 100% clean/natural/whole foods and that is why I enjoy them and other botanas often.....yay !
I don't think most people have a problem with the process of grinding corn up and making a tortilla from it, but a tortilla is no longer a whole food. The corn is. A taco can be made from 100% natural, processed-by-hand ingredients but it's not a whole food.0
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