We don't know what constitutes a true paleo diet!
Replies
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you realize we all agree with you regarding the evolutionary science... yes? maybe you haven't actually read.
we're debating the nutritional aspects of the diet, not whether it actually resembles paleolithic diets.
Except for those who don't...Which branches of science support the idea that we didn't evolve to eat grain?
Loosely speaking, biology, chemistry, biochemistry and genetics -- arguably evolutionary biology/genetics as well depending on your definition thereof.0 -
You are agreeing with the blind opinions that has not had an ounce of backup.
The whole evolution thing i still killing me. I am waiting for the a pink cow to show up as GMO. Since all meats we eat now are GMO according to reddy.
Absolutely incorrect about your assumption.
I have read a lot of the back-up, so that's why I agree with some of his assertions/opinions. I read A LOT of scientific studies and supporting documentation before I decide to try out Paleo for myself, though I ended more in the Primal zone. I realize that others can come to different conclusions from reading those same studies, but that's a different thing.
you you believe that all animals we eat are GMO? That over that last 50 years all food has evolved but humans have not evolved to be able to handle the food? This is what I am talking about. I know a lot about the Paleo diet since i have talked to dietitian about it and studied it. I have had to look up a lot of different diets for my wife's IBD (not IBS). Paleo seemed like a good option except foods on that list irritated her IBD.
Some of his evolution stuff is all OPINION and has no backup in any sort of study. Some vegetables/fruits and what not are GMO I know that. I know that vegetables/fruits are modified and cross germinated with other stuff to try to improve them. Still have not seen anything to back up what he is saying. No backup from you as well. you can claim to be some graduate in a field of study that makes is seem like you know what you are talking about but I can play the exact same card.
To me what i comes down to is passing an opinion off as fact without back to support how the opinion came to be. Obviously lots of what i am reading in opinion posted as cold hard facts and it is really amusing and that is what draws out my trolling. Someone so hard nosed in his own opinion that he will argue HIS OPINION to the end and will never back it up.0 -
The reason for the mockery is that there really is no debate on paleo. It has no sound scientific basis for the claims that it is the way people did eat at that time or should eat now. Feel free to continue, but this just isn't taken seriously by the scientific community. For me, and many others, that's enough.
Now, please continue as I know you will.
Really? If so, what do you call all the studies on gluten, lectins, casein, lactose, insulin sensitivity, diabetes, etc.? You can find a whole host of ACTUAL studies cites in books like Good Calories Bad Calories or Deep Nutrition. Or some listed on marksdailyapple.com.
Now, you may not agree with the ultimate conclusions drawn from such studies or find it flawed -- many people do disagree -- but to say that there is no science behind it is just categorically incorrect.
So you create a diet for the general population based on a host of specific disorders, and then go on a dietary witch hunt to prove everyone has "sensitivities" that that are similar, but less severe, than these disorders? I'm sorry, but no. My point has been made. Please, however, do continue.0 -
you realize we all agree with you regarding the evolutionary science... yes? maybe you haven't actually read.
we're debating the nutritional aspects of the diet, not whether it actually resembles paleolithic diets.
Except for those who don't...Which branches of science support the idea that we didn't evolve to eat grain?
Loosely speaking, biology, chemistry, biochemistry and genetics -- arguably evolutionary biology/genetics as well depending on your definition thereof.
We were just debating the evolutionary part to explain the label, and conceded many of its imperfections. C'mon, you know you're being disingenuous here.0 -
Any "paleo dieter" who consumes blueberries, tomatoes, potatoes, cashews, brazil nuts, bison, turkey, chocolate, sunflower seeds, avocados is also a fraud! No paleolithic person had access to these delicious New World crops/foods.
Having spent a lot of time in remote indigenous communities in northern Canada, I see no parallels between the average hunter/gatherer's traditional diet and the modern, urban "paleo's" diet. Lean meat alone will kill you. The fat is where it's at! And the entrails. Of course, to a western palate none of this tastes good.
Why do people get so hung up on the label? It's a guiding principle not a black-and-white testimony on to paleolithic ancestors. I've never seen so many people so focused on the literal before coming to this site. It just boggles the mind.
people mock it because it's nonsensical and based entirely on a false premise.
it's no different that the mocking that astrology would get on an astronomy site.
As an astronomer who is often asked by members of the general public what it is like being an astrologer, I second that.
If you are not trying to say the Paleo diet was eaten by Paleolithic people, why does so much pro-paleo literature say this? And why is the diet called that anyway?0 -
You are agreeing with the blind opinions that has not had an ounce of backup.
The whole evolution thing i still killing me. I am waiting for the a pink cow to show up as GMO. Since all meats we eat now are GMO according to reddy.
Absolutely incorrect about your assumption.
I have read a lot of the back-up, so that's why I agree with some of his assertions/opinions. I read A LOT of scientific studies and supporting documentation before I decide to try out Paleo for myself, though I ended more in the Primal zone. I realize that others can come to different conclusions from reading those same studies, but that's a different thing.
you you believe that all animals we eat are GMO? That over that last 50 years all food has evolved but humans have not evolved to be able to handle the food? This is what I am talking about. I know a lot about the Paleo diet since i have talked to dietitian about it and studied it. I have had to look up a lot of different diets for my wife's IBD (not IBS). Paleo seemed like a good option except foods on that list irritated her IBD.
Some of his evolution stuff is all OPINION and has no backup in any sort of study. Some vegetables/fruits and what not are GMO I know that. I know that vegetables/fruits are modified and cross germinated with other stuff to try to improve them. Still have not seen anything to back up what he is saying. No backup from you as well. you can claim to be some graduate in a field of study that makes is seem like you know what you are talking about but I can play the exact same card.
To me what i comes down to is passing an opinion off as fact without back to support how the opinion came to be. Obviously lots of what i am reading in opinion posted as cold hard facts and it is really amusing and that is what draws out my trolling. Someone so hard nosed in his own opinion that he will argue HIS OPINION to the end and will never back it up.
Didn't read since your very first line is incorrect. Please quote where I said all animals we eat are GMO.0 -
I think the kaleo diet looks interesting, but I would never consider doing it because it does not suit my lifestyle or the foods I WANT to eat.
I even like the fact that the name is a cross between kale and paleo (I know that probably gets a lot of your blood boiling) hell they didn't even have kale in Palaeolithic times ( sorry not sure if that's true or not).
I really, really think you should read Amber's blog www.gokaleo.com
I think it would be very helpful to you.
Thanks I have read it several times.
I wasn't be sarcastic (although I normally am). I think it looks like a great diet.
It just doesn't suit me or my eating style. my point is there are some great diets out there, most get us to the same destination, they just use our preferred route.
Amber!
I have her on Facebook too! :drinker:0 -
you you believe that all animals we eat are GMO? That over that last 50 years all food has evolved but humans have not evolved to be able to handle the food? This is what I am talking about. I know a lot about the Paleo diet since i have talked to dietitian about it and studied it. I have had to look up a lot of different diets for my wife's IBD (not IBS). Paleo seemed like a good option except foods on that list irritated her IBD.
Some of his evolution stuff is all OPINION and has no backup in any sort of study. Some vegetables/fruits and what not are GMO I know that. I know that vegetables/fruits are modified and cross germinated with other stuff to try to improve them. Still have not seen anything to back up what he is saying. No backup from you as well. you can claim to be some graduate in a field of study that makes is seem like you know what you are talking about but I can play the exact same card.
To me what i comes down to is passing an opinion off as fact without back to support how the opinion came to be. Obviously lots of what i am reading in opinion posted as cold hard facts and it is really amusing and that is what draws out my trolling. Someone so hard nosed in his own opinion that he will argue HIS OPINION to the end and will never back it up.
Okay, almost everything about evolution or paleotology is an opinion. Some rises to the level of theory (like natural selection), but most of it is based on bits and pieces of evidence we've pieced together from what we've been able to find, observe and deduce from those observations. Welcome to the wonderful world of science.
The debate is in the conclusions drawn from those pieces of evidence, and the application thereof. There is a lot of good evidence to support many of the conclusions and application seen in the Paleo/Primal diet. Not dispositive, but certainly plausible.
I think he's just sharing what he has found, without feeling a need to perpetually cite studies ad naseum. He (and I) have directed people to some potential sources of information. This is a fitness message board, not a scientific conference or a court of law. Lighten up a little.0 -
You are agreeing with the blind opinions that has not had an ounce of backup.
The whole evolution thing i still killing me. I am waiting for the a pink cow to show up as GMO. Since all meats we eat now are GMO according to reddy.
Absolutely incorrect about your assumption.
I have read a lot of the back-up, so that's why I agree with some of his assertions/opinions. I read A LOT of scientific studies and supporting documentation before I decide to try out Paleo for myself, though I ended more in the Primal zone. I realize that others can come to different conclusions from reading those same studies, but that's a different thing.
Cite the back-up.
Here are some great sources -- look for studies cited in Deep Nutrition, Good Calories Bad Calories, or marksdailyapple.com They're not all great, but there are quite a few that are solid. Go on, come back once you've finished.
Seriously? You are seriously directing me to pop-nutrition books as a source and expecting me to dig through all their allusions to real research and find the ones that don't have methodological flaws and then show you how they don't apply.0 -
You are agreeing with the blind opinions that has not had an ounce of backup.
The whole evolution thing i still killing me. I am waiting for the a pink cow to show up as GMO. Since all meats we eat now are GMO according to reddy.
Absolutely incorrect about your assumption.
I have read a lot of the back-up, so that's why I agree with some of his assertions/opinions. I read A LOT of scientific studies and supporting documentation before I decide to try out Paleo for myself, though I ended more in the Primal zone. I realize that others can come to different conclusions from reading those same studies, but that's a different thing.
Cite the back-up.
Here are some great sources -- look for studies cited in Deep Nutrition, Good Calories Bad Calories, or marksdailyapple.com They're not all great, but there are quite a few that are solid. Go on, come back once you've finished.
Seriously? You are seriously directing me to pop-nutrition books as a source and expecting me to dig through all their allusions to real research and find the ones that don't have methodological flaws and then show you how they don't apply.
whether or not you agree with the studies behind such books, they're still science.
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So you create a diet for the general population based on a host of specific disorders, and then go on a dietary witch hunt to prove everyone has "sensitivities" that that are similar, but less severe, than these disorders? I'm sorry, but no. My point has been made. Please, however, do continue.
Or you could say that you observe certain phenomena and postulate potential reasons to explain that phenomena. Of course, keeping in mind, that nothing is 100% applicable to everyone all the time. That the applicability of the rule is certainly subject to exceptions or may have reduced applicability all together -- the science isn't dispositive (and rarely ever is). But that doesn't negate the existence of or at least the reasonable basis for that idea/reason in the first place.0 -
Are coppernose bluegill (native/evolved in peninsular Florida) out of a Texas pond paleo? Because i need to do some herd thinning after the spawn this year.
silly question I posed on my feed...figured this discussion as gotten far enough for me to ask it. My fish are fed pellets to supplement fwiw...0 -
you you believe that all animals we eat are GMO? That over that last 50 years all food has evolved but humans have not evolved to be able to handle the food? This is what I am talking about. I know a lot about the Paleo diet since i have talked to dietitian about it and studied it. I have had to look up a lot of different diets for my wife's IBD (not IBS). Paleo seemed like a good option except foods on that list irritated her IBD.
Some of his evolution stuff is all OPINION and has no backup in any sort of study. Some vegetables/fruits and what not are GMO I know that. I know that vegetables/fruits are modified and cross germinated with other stuff to try to improve them. Still have not seen anything to back up what he is saying. No backup from you as well. you can claim to be some graduate in a field of study that makes is seem like you know what you are talking about but I can play the exact same card.
To me what i comes down to is passing an opinion off as fact without back to support how the opinion came to be. Obviously lots of what i am reading in opinion posted as cold hard facts and it is really amusing and that is what draws out my trolling. Someone so hard nosed in his own opinion that he will argue HIS OPINION to the end and will never back it up.
Okay, almost everything about evolution or paleotology is an opinion. Some rises to the level of theory (like natural selection), but most of it is based on bits and pieces of evidence we've pieced together from what we've been able to find, observe and deduce from those observations. Welcome to the wonderful world of science.
The debate is in the conclusions drawn from those pieces of evidence, and the application thereof. There is a lot of good evidence to support many of the conclusions and application seen in the Paleo/Primal diet. Not dispositive, but certainly plausible.
I think he's just sharing what he has found, without feeling a need to perpetually cite studies ad naseum. He (and I) have directed people to some potential sources of information. This is a fitness message board, not a scientific conference or a court of law. Lighten up a little.
When you share ideas, you should be able to generally describe why you support them (or don't support them).
When others describe the issues that they have with those ideas, you should either be able to address those issues or admit that you can't.
Not everything about human evolution or paleoanthropology is an opinion as Neandermagon pointed out so skillfully yesterday.
We are far, far away from Neo-Darwinism being an opinion.0 -
Seriously? You are seriously directing me to pop-nutrition books as a source and expecting me to dig through all their allusions to real research and find the ones that don't have methodological flaws and then show you how they don't apply.
Yes, because many of the studies cited therein on high quality. So, before you scoff, why don't you actually investigate?0 -
When you share ideas, you should be able to generally describe why you support them (or don't support them).
When others describe the issues that they have with those ideas, you should either be able to address those issues or admit that you can't.
Not everything about human evolution or paleoanthropology is an opinion as Neandermagon pointed out so skillfully yesterday.
We are far, far away from Neo-Darwinism being an opinion.
I have, A LOT. You just casually disregard those. I can't do anything about that if you refuse to read/address them.0 -
Seriously? You are seriously directing me to pop-nutrition books as a source and expecting me to dig through all their allusions to real research and find the ones that don't have methodological flaws and then show you how they don't apply.
Yes, because many of the studies cited therein on high quality. So, before you scoff, why don't you actually investigate?
here, here's 4 college textbooks on the subject...you can't reply to me intelligently until you have mastered their content...0 -
You are agreeing with the blind opinions that has not had an ounce of backup.
The whole evolution thing i still killing me. I am waiting for the a pink cow to show up as GMO. Since all meats we eat now are GMO according to reddy.
Absolutely incorrect about your assumption.
I have read a lot of the back-up, so that's why I agree with some of his assertions/opinions. I read A LOT of scientific studies and supporting documentation before I decide to try out Paleo for myself, though I ended more in the Primal zone. I realize that others can come to different conclusions from reading those same studies, but that's a different thing.
Cite the back-up.
Here are some great sources -- look for studies cited in Deep Nutrition, Good Calories Bad Calories, or marksdailyapple.com They're not all great, but there are quite a few that are solid. Go on, come back once you've finished.
Seriously? You are seriously directing me to pop-nutrition books as a source and expecting me to dig through all their allusions to real research and find the ones that don't have methodological flaws and then show you how they don't apply.
Apparently, it's your responsibility to prove their assertions.0 -
Seriously? You are seriously directing me to pop-nutrition books as a source and expecting me to dig through all their allusions to real research and find the ones that don't have methodological flaws and then show you how they don't apply.
Yes, because many of the studies cited therein on high quality. So, before you scoff, why don't you actually investigate?
here, here's 4 college textbooks on the subject...you can't reply to me intelligently until you have mastered their content...
Answer intelligently on your own, by all means. She was asking for evidence of scientific studies backing the conclusions/assertions, I gave them to her.
And depending on the college text book, I may have already read them. If I was asking for someone to cite studies, I'd be thrilled with them doing just that. What more can you want?0 -
The reason for the mockery is that there really is no debate on paleo. It has no sound scientific basis for the claims that it is the way people did eat at that time or should eat now. Feel free to continue, but this just isn't taken seriously by the scientific community. For me, and many others, that's enough.
Now, please continue as I know you will.
Really? If so, what do you call all the studies on gluten, lectins, casein, lactose, insulin sensitivity, diabetes, etc.? You can find a whole host of ACTUAL studies cites in books like Good Calories Bad Calories or Deep Nutrition. Or some listed on marksdailyapple.com.
Now, you may not agree with the ultimate conclusions drawn from such studies or find it flawed -- many people do disagree -- but to say that there is no science behind it is just categorically incorrect.
All nutritional subjects have some back and forth in results. This is natural and expected and why multiple studies are done, and why it is so important to take all studies into consideration. What studies with opposing conclusions did you include in your research?0 -
Lucky for me, I haven't been sick one time since switching to Paleo... so I have had no need for an antibiotic... but prior, I could have purchased stock and done very well in Z-pack commodities...
My doctor friended me on facebook b/c we went from seeing each other every other month to once a year. We talk about running now instead of mental health complaints, sniffles and sneezes and countless aches and pains.
Thank you REAL FOOD diet.
REAL FOOD = Paleo with a different name. :flowerforyou: 0 -
Seriously? You are seriously directing me to pop-nutrition books as a source and expecting me to dig through all their allusions to real research and find the ones that don't have methodological flaws and then show you how they don't apply.
Yes, because many of the studies cited therein on high quality. So, before you scoff, why don't you actually investigate?
here, here's 4 college textbooks on the subject...you can't reply to me intelligently until you have mastered their content...
Answer intelligently on your own, by all means. She was asking for evidence of scientific studies backing the conclusions/assertions, I gave them to her.
And depending on the college text book, I may have already read them. If I was asking for someone to cite studies, I'd be thrilled with them doing just that. What more can you want?
I find recent peer reviewed review articles helpful in these situations. Credible, with a lot of the good sources already found for you. If they're from a good journal, you'll likely get some contradicting sources as well, which is great.0 -
BUMP!0
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Lucky for me, I haven't been sick one time since switching to Paleo... so I have had no need for an antibiotic... but prior, I could have purchased stock and done very well in Z-pack commodities...
My doctor friended me on facebook b/c we went from seeing each other every other month to once a year. We talk about running now instead of mental health complaints, sniffles and sneezes and countless aches and pains.
Thank you REAL FOOD diet.
REAL FOOD = Paleo with a different name. :flowerforyou:
What were you eating before you switched to a Paleo Diet?0 -
maybe they ate all the dinosaurs, and that's why there aren't any left any more....0
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Apparently, it's your responsibility to prove their assertions.
No joke.
Her: There's no science behind the claims.
Me: Yes, there is.
Her: Oh, yeah, where?
Me: Here.
Her: You expect me to actually read this?
Me: Yes, I do. I thought that was the whole point in asking for them.0 -
You are agreeing with the blind opinions that has not had an ounce of backup.
The whole evolution thing i still killing me. I am waiting for the a pink cow to show up as GMO. Since all meats we eat now are GMO according to reddy.
Absolutely incorrect about your assumption.
I have read a lot of the back-up, so that's why I agree with some of his assertions/opinions. I read A LOT of scientific studies and supporting documentation before I decide to try out Paleo for myself, though I ended more in the Primal zone. I realize that others can come to different conclusions from reading those same studies, but that's a different thing.
Cite the back-up.
Here are some great sources -- look for studies cited in Deep Nutrition, Good Calories Bad Calories, or marksdailyapple.com They're not all great, but there are quite a few that are solid. Go on, come back once you've finished.
Seriously? You are seriously directing me to pop-nutrition books as a source and expecting me to dig through all their allusions to real research and find the ones that don't have methodological flaws and then show you how they don't apply.
Apparently, it's your responsibility to prove their assertions.
it's not any of our responsibility to provide proof for anything. this is a message board. it's an exchange of ideas. if anyone sees an idea they find intriguing they can research it all they want and decide what to think for themselves. This whole "prove it" mentality where anyone who makes a claim has to spend an hour pouring through websites to find the articles and studies they didn't think to bookmark when reading, JUST so that people won't flame them for posting an opinion is... just silly. lol0 -
You are agreeing with the blind opinions that has not had an ounce of backup.
The whole evolution thing i still killing me. I am waiting for the a pink cow to show up as GMO. Since all meats we eat now are GMO according to reddy.
Absolutely incorrect about your assumption.
I have read a lot of the back-up, so that's why I agree with some of his assertions/opinions. I read A LOT of scientific studies and supporting documentation before I decide to try out Paleo for myself, though I ended more in the Primal zone. I realize that others can come to different conclusions from reading those same studies, but that's a different thing.
Cite the back-up.
Here are some great sources -- look for studies cited in Deep Nutrition, Good Calories Bad Calories, or marksdailyapple.com They're not all great, but there are quite a few that are solid. Go on, come back once you've finished.
Seriously? You are seriously directing me to pop-nutrition books as a source and expecting me to dig through all their allusions to real research and find the ones that don't have methodological flaws and then show you how they don't apply.
whether or not you agree with the studies behind such books, they're still science.
Is that coming from the right or left side of your brain, LOL?0 -
You are agreeing with the blind opinions that has not had an ounce of backup.
The whole evolution thing i still killing me. I am waiting for the a pink cow to show up as GMO. Since all meats we eat now are GMO according to reddy.
Absolutely incorrect about your assumption.
I have read a lot of the back-up, so that's why I agree with some of his assertions/opinions. I read A LOT of scientific studies and supporting documentation before I decide to try out Paleo for myself, though I ended more in the Primal zone. I realize that others can come to different conclusions from reading those same studies, but that's a different thing.
Cite the back-up.
Here are some great sources -- look for studies cited in Deep Nutrition, Good Calories Bad Calories, or marksdailyapple.com They're not all great, but there are quite a few that are solid. Go on, come back once you've finished.
Seriously? You are seriously directing me to pop-nutrition books as a source and expecting me to dig through all their allusions to real research and find the ones that don't have methodological flaws and then show you how they don't apply.
Apparently, it's your responsibility to prove their assertions.
it's not any of our responsibility to provide proof for anything. this is a message board. it's an exchange of ideas. if anyone sees an idea they find intriguing they can research it all they want and decide what to think for themselves. This whole "prove it" mentality where anyone who makes a claim has to spend an hour pouring through websites to find the articles and studies they didn't think to bookmark when reading, JUST so that people won't flame them for posting an opinion is... just silly. lol
Nuh, unh. She's already read many studies in support of the paleo diet including ones involving biochemistry, etc. No need to do anything but dig those up.0 -
Apparently, it's your responsibility to prove their assertions.
No joke.
Her: There's no science behind the claims.
Me: Yes, there is.
Her: Oh, yeah, where?
Me: Here.
Her: You expect me to actually read this?
Me: Yes, I do. I thought that was the whole point in asking for them.
Peer reviewed literature published in the last 10 years was the standard for my Master's degree. But that wasn't from one of the top research universities in the world.0 -
Apparently, it's your responsibility to prove their assertions.
No joke.
Her: There's no science behind the claims.
Me: Yes, there is.
Her: Oh, yeah, where?
Me: Here.
Her: You expect me to actually read this?
Me: Yes, I do. I thought that was the whole point in asking for them.
You referenced books that have a bias, agenda, and incentive--to sell books. Of course it's going to be slanted. As for the studies in those books, well, I wish I knew what they were. But you didn't reference them.0
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