So you'll lose muscle on a vegan diet?

raven_ous

TO SUM UP:

Two examples of professional athletes who switched to vegan diets have been shown as an example that you can be a vegan, still have muscle, and compete at a professional level.

In both cases it's shown that they started to decline as athletes once they started eating vegan. One even supplemented his "healthy diet" with performance enhancing drugs to remain competitive.

If you want to make a point, find better examples than these two. Because you've only succeeded in sending the complete opposite of your intended message.

QFT^
Poorly thought out threads like this are painful for vegans to read.

Anecdotal evidence at best!

Here is a picture of a vegan body builder...



Joel Kirkilis is a vegan Australian bodybuilder.

Joel took home first prize in the ANB Victorian Championships and second prize in the NABBA/WFF Bodybuilding International etc

It is also misleading to use vegans as an argument that protein is not important (or is that vice versa?). Vegans who are looking to build/maintain muscle and who are performance athletes do pay attention to their protein intake.

Not sure if you were directing that at me but this guy would most definitely pay attention to his protein intake...I met him and had a lengthy discussion about protein sources and even bought a protein supplement from him.

On the same page as you, maybe I miss quoted?

UtahSeth

The best vegan bodybuilding has to offer:

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/profile_kirkilis_7.jpg

The best animal protein has to offer:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2013/2013-olympia-weekend-phil-heath-is-mr-olympia-champion_a.jpg

Which diet builds more mass? HMMMMMM...

That being said I apologize for hijacking, since the original post was actually asking about maintaining mass on a "vegan-ish" diet and not about growing it. But I still think its relevant to see the top bodybuilding performers in each group so as to decide which way one should lean.

Sarauk2sf

TO SUM UP:

Two examples of professional athletes who switched to vegan diets have been shown as an example that you can be a vegan, still have muscle, and compete at a professional level.

In both cases it's shown that they started to decline as athletes once they started eating vegan. One even supplemented his "healthy diet" with performance enhancing drugs to remain competitive.

If you want to make a point, find better examples than these two. Because you've only succeeded in sending the complete opposite of your intended message.

QFT^
Poorly thought out threads like this are painful for vegans to read.

Anecdotal evidence at best!

Here is a picture of a vegan body builder...



Joel Kirkilis is a vegan Australian bodybuilder.

Joel took home first prize in the ANB Victorian Championships and second prize in the NABBA/WFF Bodybuilding International etc

It is also misleading to use vegans as an argument that protein is not important (or is that vice versa?). Vegans who are looking to build/maintain muscle and who are performance athletes do pay attention to their protein intake.

Not sure if you were directing that at me but this guy would most definitely pay attention to his protein intake...I met him and had a lengthy discussion about protein sources and even bought a protein supplement from him.

On the same page as you, maybe I missed quoted?

Yep - I was making that point that protein intake is paid attention to by vegan athletes. There were some comments in this thread that minimized the importance (and were used in the context of vegans).

Sarauk2sf

The best vegan bodybuilding has to offer:

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/profile_kirkilis_7.jpg

The best animal protein has to offer:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2013/2013-olympia-weekend-phil-heath-is-mr-olympia-champion_a.jpg

Which diet builds more mass? HMMMMMM...

That being said I apologize for hijacking, since the original post was actually asking about maintaining mass on a "vegan-ish" diet and not about growing it. But I still think its relevant to see the top bodybuilding performers in each group so as to decide which way one should lean.

Gear has nothing to do with it?

raven_ous

The best vegan bodybuilding has to offer:

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/profile_kirkilis_7.jpg

The best animal protein has to offer:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/images/2013/2013-olympia-weekend-phil-heath-is-mr-olympia-champion_a.jpg

Which diet builds more mass? HMMMMMM...

That being said I apologize for hijacking, since the original post was actually asking about maintaining mass on a "vegan-ish" diet and not about growing it. But I still think its relevant to see the top bodybuilding performers in each group so as to decide which way one should lean.

Never said kirkilis was the best and if for example you are getting protein from a meat source or a plant source and it is the same amount of protein does the body really care? HMMMM? It is still the same amount of protein.

I am not having a vegan vs omnivore bodybuilder debate as there are too many factors to consider weight range, are they natural bodybuilders or are they juicing etc.

Protein is protein no matter what the source as long as it contains an adequate proportion of all nine of the essential amino acids.

_John_

My view on all this is that no one will really do a true study on themselves to know whether they feel better either way (assuming "smart" eating using either diet. Both can provide adequate nutrition.

Both don't have to be black and white or 2 sides of a coin. You can eat meat, fish and dairy and eggs and still eat a bunch of whole plant foods in the same vein that one can get adequate nutrition and protein from a vegan diet.

I think the assumptions that one doesn't eat enough plant/high nutrient foods and has no knowledge or care about nutrition or ethics on an omnivore diet or that one is a dumbass with no idea what they're doing on a vegan is insulting to either side.

JoRocka

Robert Cheeke as an example of vegan bodybuilding?

I really wouldn't be touting him as a champion for your cause- he seriously looks like a woman from the back- he is small- and has pretty poor leg definition. He has decent definition- but he doesn't look like a body builder.

Body builder =/= definition it is SIZE and definition- of which is is lacking.

me- not impressed.

Protein is protein no matter what the source as long as it contains an adequate proportion of all nine of the essential amino acids

did we already cover this? animal protein has more bio-availability? so when cutting/bulking is an issue trying to not over eat AND get enough protein- me thinks that is going to cause issues.

I respect people for making the jump to vegan for moral reasons- Joel Kirklis has a good quote on it (quick google images of his name shows it and why he became vegan) and I applaud people for living up to a their moral standards for THEMSELVES.

not because "it's better".

that decision shouldnt' have to be about "its' better or not" it's about what helps me sleep at night- it's about morals or ethics... it's pretty straight forward- best way to get protein is when it comes from dead things. It's when you have ethical/moral hang ups that it's an issue.

amtatusko

Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).

Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.

Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."

And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.

Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."

Rocbola

animal protein has more bio-availability?

There's another piece of mis-info.

Sarauk2sf

Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).

Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.

Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."

And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.

Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."

Do you have the full text. I could not find it.

eric_sg61

animal protein has more bio-availability?

There's another piece of mis-info.

Do you even science

Sarauk2sf

animal protein has more bio-availability?

There's another piece of mis-info.

Do you even science

And can we remind people that top 5 are vegetarian

amtatusko

Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).

Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.

Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."

And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.

Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."

Do you have the full text. I could not find it.

I am not sure if it is available online. I found these in a search at Penn State where I work. I think the license is only for here. A library might have the full text though. These are clips from the conclusion sections.

I didn't have to dig deep. Just had to punch in the right search string. Tip of the iceberg.

Admittedly the CDC piece might be weak since it is clearly in support of the government approved food pyramid which is under reasonable scrutiny as the opinion seems to be.

athensguy

Great job starting to get into the vegan diet I eat mostly vegan/plant-based as well minus the occasional fish. It is definitely a bunch of propaganda that the vegan diet or plant-based protein is inferior to animal protein.

It's not propaganda, it's scientific fact. The amino acid profile in animal based proteins is superior to that in plant based proteins. Sure you can compensate by eating a ridiculous amount of protein from plants, but the Bio-availability of animal based protein is much higher than that of plant based protein and there's a higher amount of Branched-Chained Amino Acids present in animal proteins, specifically Leucine which regulates protein synthesis in skeletal muscle.

Haha^^

You know that a 'scientific fact' is only a fact until it's disproven? A source, or at the very least a wikipedia link would be appreciated alongside any 'scientific facts'. I'm not discrediting anything that anyone has said, it just keeps the debate more authentic rather than built on BS :-)

Read up...

http://www.nutritionexpress.com/article+index/authors/jeff+s+volek+phd+rd/showarticle.aspx?articleid=807

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/2/533S.full

It's funny, but did you know the highest concentration of leucine occurs in soy?

eric_sg61

animal protein has more bio-availability?

There's another piece of mis-info.

Do you even science

And can we remind people that top 5 are vegetarian

But animal:laugh:

Sarauk2sf

Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).

Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.

Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."

And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.

Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."

Do you have the full text. I could not find it.

I am not sure if it is available online. I found these in a search at Penn State where I work. I think the license is only for here. A library might have the full text though. These are clips from the conclusion sections.

I didn't have to dig deep. Just had to punch in the right search string. Tip of the iceberg.

Admittedly the CDC piece might be weak since it is clearly in support of the government approved food pyramid which is under reasonable scrutiny as the opinion seems to be.

My issue with the first one, from what I can tell from the abstract, was that they are not in a hypocaloric diet and it was for only 5 days. So I looked online to see if I could find the full text to see, as well as to check out the other variables.

Sarauk2sf

animal protein has more bio-availability?

There's another piece of mis-info.

Do you even science

And can we remind people that top 5 are vegetarian

But animal:laugh:

amtatusko

Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).

Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.

Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."

And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.

Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."

Do you have the full text. I could not find it.

I am not sure if it is available online. I found these in a search at Penn State where I work. I think the license is only for here. A library might have the full text though. These are clips from the conclusion sections.

I didn't have to dig deep. Just had to punch in the right search string. Tip of the iceberg.

Admittedly the CDC piece might be weak since it is clearly in support of the government approved food pyramid which is under reasonable scrutiny as the opinion seems to be.

My issue with the first one, from what I can tell from the abstract, was that they are not in a hypocaloric diet and it was for only 5 days. So I looked online to see if I could find the full text to see, as well as to check out the other variables.

OK. I think this is a good discussion, but as long we aren't jumping on emotionally-driven opinions we get closer to what works best for us!

I know what works for my health and my goals so I can't speak for anyone else.

The original post question is if you lose muscle mass on an 80/20 vegan diet. I have no clue what that really means other than vegetarian. I am more of a pescetarian if we are being literal, because the health benefits of wild salmon, wild cod, sardines, mackerel, etc. are too well documented. Excellent sources of protein as well.

I eat fish once in a while but not all the time. I am also trimming way down for cycling so the diet is about endurance and getting lean for those nasty climbs.

cwolfman13

You don’t need one gram of protein per pound of body weight. You don’t need that at all. If you are regularly active and at a good weight, if you get more than 80 grams of protein a day then you are fine. The body can’t even process more than that, your liver can’t process more than that. If you give your body too much protein then it’s either going to turn it into energy or to fat. And your liver has to do all that.”

My liver has to do all that (process dietary protein into energy or fat) but my liver cannot process more than 80 grams per day.

So the obvious question is, "what happens to the other 70 grams per day that I ingest?"

I mean, if he's right then it clearly cannot possibly be turning into fat OR being used for energy. Is it just falling out of my body, or building up somewhere, or perhaps being processed/eliminated by leprechauns?

Since I can't get an answer I guess I'll just have to go with leprechauns. So the take away from this thread is don't eat too much protein or leprechauns will steal it from your body.

No dude...



everyone knows that...where you been?

Sarauk2sf

Just a few more data-driven arguments to consider when thinking about a vegetarian diet. Allowing for a small amount of meat is a good thing even though a prudent vegetarian (or vegan) diet is possible for maintaining or even gaining muscle mass (which is all that I have been saying).

Take these studies for what they are worth, which seems to be quite a bit.

Wow, you're really digging deep to try and find some way to justify your pre-conceived opinions. Only one of those was a "study." The rest were just some quotes! That's not my idea of "data driven."

And the one actual study was a joke. For one thing, the fact that the omnivores weren't getting any more leucine than the vegans only demonstrates that the "omnivores" probably weren't eating much meat anyway. And were the handful of the people in the "study" actually exercising? If so, how? Was it resistance training? Nobody here is saying that eating meat will magically make a sedentary person gain muscle.

Not so much. The studies are from where I am deriving my opinion. Quotes come from a context. Read them in context. That's why I referenced them. Read the studies and you will find the method by which they came to their conclusions. Like I said. Read it for what it's worth. Peer reviewed journals are more than "studies."

Do you have the full text. I could not find it.

I am not sure if it is available online. I found these in a search at Penn State where I work. I think the license is only for here. A library might have the full text though. These are clips from the conclusion sections.

I didn't have to dig deep. Just had to punch in the right search string. Tip of the iceberg.

Admittedly the CDC piece might be weak since it is clearly in support of the government approved food pyramid which is under reasonable scrutiny as the opinion seems to be.

My issue with the first one, from what I can tell from the abstract, was that they are not in a hypocaloric diet and it was for only 5 days. So I looked online to see if I could find the full text to see, as well as to check out the other variables.

OK. I think this is a good discussion, but as long we aren't jumping on emotionally-driven opinions we get closer to what works best for us!

I know what works for my health and my goals so I can't speak for anyone else.

The original post question is if you lose muscle mass on an 80/20 vegan diet. I have no clue what that really means other than vegetarian. I am more of a pescetarian if we are being literal, because the health benefits of wild salmon, wild cod, sardines, mackerel, etc. are too well documented. Excellent sources of protein as well.

I eat fish once in a while but not all the time. I am also trimming way down for cycling so the diet is about endurance and getting lean for those nasty climbs.

I generally do not post emotionally-driven opinions when discussing science based nutrition.

The answer, as with most things, is...it depends.

It depends on the amount and the quality of the protein, whether the person is resistance training or endurance training or sedentary, whether they are in a hypo or a hypercaloric diet or on maintenance. What the size of the deficit is. Their leanness. Genetics....and so on and so on.

Being a vegan does not make it impossible to gain/maintain muscle. It just makes planning more important and you *may* not get optimal results.

However, at the end of the day, people need to ask whether getting 'optimal results' is worth going against any moral/ethical concern.

Also, again. Vegan =/= vegetarian.